Practiced Spellcaster feat

Scion · Jul 21, 2004

Methos of Aundair said:
@scion

Interesting thing scion, you might know most of my players. We play in Columbia, MO and originally met several years ago while playing at Valhalla's Gate on Nifong. Several of my players, including me, were co-DM's in the Ashes campaign (which consisted of approx. 25 to 30 players) that used to play every other Saturday at the Gate.

I have only been to the gate a couple of times.. havent lived here long.. I think I have pm's turned on.. feel free to pm me or email me, I think I have that on my profile.

Ourph · Jul 21, 2004

Pax said:
I guarantee youwill find that it is impossible to emphasise spellcasting instead of combat - that's because the 10 sorceror levels are 5 levels of fighter in terms of BAB. Yep, you guessed it, that character is able to connect blows as well as a 15th level Fighter ... but is not as able to connect with spells as a 15th-level Sorceror.

Yet he can increase his ability in melee to the equivalent of a 35th level Fighter with a simple 1st level spell (that he can cast over and over again) called True Strike; something neither a single classed Sorcerer (who lacks the combat prowess) or a single classed Fighter (who can't cast the spell) is able to do.

The trade-off for that power is that the character will NEVER be good at using spells offensively. Offensive use of spells is the single most powerful ability in D&D. The fact that you give that up when multiclassing is (at least in my opinion) inherently necessary to making multiclass spellcasters balanced.

There seems to be a general consensus in this thread that multiclass spellcasters are underpowered when using the core rules only. I vehemently disagree with that idea. Spellcasting is the most powerful ability in the game and any option that provides a character with the ability to cast AND perform other class functions SHOULD severely cripple the character's casting ability in order to preserve balance. IMO only single classed spellcasters should be good at casting, period. Any multiclass option should be forced to focus on the non-casting class because the alternative is just too powerful compared to the single classed caster (again, IMO).

Particle_Man · Jul 21, 2004

y'know, if you think that the feat is too powerful, what do you think of Leadership? This gives a fighter lvl 6-18 a fair level spellcaster cohort that can take independant actions(!). Or a Wizard (or better, a sorceror) lvl 6-18 a cleric cohort, same benefits. Even a multi-classed caster would benefit far more from Leadership than from Practised Spellcaster. Surely that is more of a power boost than the Practised Spellcaster feat could ever be, and Leadership is 3.0 and 3.5 core.

I recommend you try Practised Spellcaster out. I think it highly unlikely that this feat will unbalance your player's character in practice. If it does, I owe you a cracker.

Particle_Man · Jul 21, 2004

Ourph said:
Yet he can increase his ability in melee to the equivalent of a 35th level Fighter with a simple 1st level spell (that he can cast over and over again) called True Strike; something neither a single classed Sorcerer (who lacks the combat prowess) or a single classed Fighter (who can't cast the spell) is able to do.

Don't forget, that fighter is giving up a standard action (and thus, the ability for a 20th level fighter to make 4 attacks!) in the first round to get that bonus to one, and only one, attack in the second round (notably, the one that would likely have hit anyhow, not the lesser iterative attacks that could actually have benefitted from it). In power attack terms, it usually works out to 20 extra damage. Is it really worth it to give up 4 attacks? A nice little trick, but you sure pay for it.

FireLance · Jul 21, 2004

Ourph said:
There seems to be a general consensus in this thread that multiclass spellcasters are underpowered when using the core rules only. I vehemently disagree with that idea. Spellcasting is the most powerful ability in the game and any option that provides a character with the ability to cast AND perform other class functions SHOULD severely cripple the character's casting ability in order to preserve balance. IMO only single classed spellcasters should be good at casting, period. Any multiclass option should be forced to focus on the non-casting class because the alternative is just too powerful compared to the single classed caster (again, IMO).

If spellcasting is the most powerful ability in the game, then the logical conclusion is that the spellcasting classes are all too powerful and should be scaled back.

When the individual classes are properly balanced, i.e. once a Wiz20 = a Clr20 = a Ftr20, then we should set up a multiclassing system so that a Wiz10/Ftr10 or Wiz10/Clr10 should also equal a Wiz20, Clr20 or a Ftr20.

Personally, I like the 3.xe philosophy that choices should be approximately equal. This allows me the flexibility to play a variety of characters that are roughly equally effective. If I was "forced" to play a single-classed character in order to be an effective spellcaster, it would get boring, in my view.

Thanee · Jul 21, 2004

Methos of Aundair said:
I agree with you on that, but the enlarge spell feat when used in conjuction with a spell requires that you cast the spell at 1 level higher than the actual level, the majority of metamagic feats do. Yet with the PS feat you cast the spells at their normal spell level. This seems to take away from the balance.

I have no idea what this is supposed to mean...

PS makes a spell half as good as an enlarged spell normally is, but doesn't cost an additional spell level. Well, that seems fairly reasonable to me, since the effect is only half as much in the end.

Bye
Thanee

Thanee · Jul 21, 2004

Ourph said:
Yet he can increase his ability in melee to the equivalent of a 35th level Fighter with a simple 1st level spell (that he can cast over and over again) called True Strike;

Right*, if he can cast it as a free action non-quickened at will.

Didn't know sorcerers can do that, that will make my character a lot more powerful, thank you!

Bye
Thanee

* Well, not really, since a 35th level fighter does have a few more abilities, like... uhm... a couple feats (many of those epic), 4 attacks per round, etc.

Malin Genie · Jul 21, 2004

A lot of the 'anti-PS' posters do not seem to have considered the impact of metamagic use by a single-class caster.

Compare a Rog4/Sor6 (just about to start ArT) with Practised Spellcaster as a 9th level Feat, with a Sor10 who takes Empower Spell instead.

Each uses their highest level slot to deal damage to a group of enemies. The Rog4/Sor6 casts Fireball. With the extra caster levels he deals 10d6 damage. The Sor10 uses her highest level slot to cast Empowered Fireball, dealing (at the same caster level, mind you) 15d6 damage!

I think this brings out even more clearly the basic fact that higher level spells - at the same caster level - are much more effective than lower level spells. The multiclass caster will still suffer lower save DCs (compounded my the fact that they will have multiple stat dependency) as well as spells having less effect, despite equal Caster Level.

Thanee · Jul 21, 2004

Ourph said:
The trade-off for that power is that the character will NEVER be good at using spells offensively. Offensive use of spells is the single most powerful ability in D&D. The fact that you give that up when multiclassing is (at least in my opinion) inherently necessary to making multiclass spellcasters balanced.

I've got news for you: A multiclass spellcaster with Practiced Spellcaster is not as good at using spells offensively as a pure spellcaster.

Bye
Thanee

Thanee · Jul 21, 2004

@Malin Genie: When I played a multiclass spellcaster (Arcane Trickster), I had the same caster attribute as a pure spellcaster. Intelligence was my primary attribute (nice synergy with the rogue's skills even).

And one other note: In your comparison, just add up the number of available 3rd level slots and higher...

Rogue 4/Sorcerer 6 has four
Sorcerer 10 has eighteen

Bye
Thanee

Practiced Spellcaster feat

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