The Common Commoner

kigmatzomat said:

I do have a region IMC where the populace is generally not allowed to be armed and priests can only be of the official religions. Ironically, there are *more* priests and wizards because they are agents of the state. The players are just arriving so we'll see how they deal.

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Well, duh.

Second is enrichment which only increases the plants productivity over time but over a much wider area and longer period of time. That is, a plant is producing its nuts, fruit, grains, etc 1/3 over normal for the next year. Weeds won't be affected.

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Why is it so hard for people to understand this?
Enrichment says "plants"--not "crops", "plants" production is enriched. AFAIK, weeds were plants.

While this may be true for Wizards, it doesn't need to hold true for Clerics. Clerics have different motivations, and that may mean that Chaotic Evil Clerics will be willing to cast Cure Disease and even Raise Dead for free.

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Maybe not Raise Dead (Note: Material component is 5,000 gp of diamonds.), but it certainly is possible, maybe even probable. You just have to corkscrew your way into thinking of a plot that would spread massive pain and suffering and that requires evil clerics to heal and cure people.
Good idea for an adventure, that. Why are the Hextorites suddenly curing the lepers?

Just because the D&D rules CAN extend up into epic levels doesn't mean that every campaign can and MUST do so. While you can fill your world with megalopolis fantasy cities you can also fill it only with thorps and small towns, thereby forcing the "world leaders" to be very low level. When the PC's and their nemeses come along they at least CAN be breaking new ground that the world has never before seen or possibly even imagined.

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That's the kind of low-magic game I'm a fan of.

Wombat said:

Ever wonder what a Sunday-Go-To-Meetin' Evil person is like in these worlds?

"Oh, yeah, th' wife likes t'go t'temple nouw an' agin, but I'm no' tha' much in'trested in the sacreefisses an' all tha'"

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Not quite evil but I think this may be how a lot of people in fantasy worlds feel about evil gods:

Wulf Ratbane's Story Hour said:

Wulf stuck his head inside and was greeted by an oracle who tended the shrine. Wulf would have guessed her a druid, though her presence in such a shrine confused that assessment somewhat.

"Mornin, woman! May we enter?"

"Of course." She smiled sweetly. "All are welcome here." Wulf noticed for the first time the small monkey-like pet on her shoulder. It hopped off and ran circles around the room, stopping at various donation boxes.

The party moved inside, and while Keldas grilled the druid, Henwen, about the goings on of the area and the town, Wulf made the rounds of the donation boxes. He was thankful he'd kept some travelling money in his purse.

Pelor! Wulf made the fist. Like brothers still, right? Sun's up again today-- nice work. Wulf dropped a few gold coins into Pelor's donation box.

Heironeous! Ahh... Keep an eye on me today, got a feelin' I'm gonna be valorously whippin' evil arse. For justice! A few more gold coins tinkled into the collection box.

Kord! Oh mighty, mighty Kord! Right. Ach... ferkit... Here. Wulf made another contribution, equal to the others, and moved on to the next shrine.

It seemed that all philosophies were present, from law to chaos, good to evil. Wulf contributed to each in turn-- growing a bit nervous when he reached Nerull, but taking a guilty pleasure in his contribution to Hextor. Sorry about that business back in Brindinford. Pals? He made the fist, just in case.

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Of course for a rather gruesome perspective on how it works in real life, see here:
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/africa/story.jsp?story=553679
A few hundred pounds, get your luck, and try not to think too hard about where it came from. Sure, it was wicked but the kid was already dead right. I mean, even if you hadn't bought the stuff, he wasn't coming back so you might as well get some good fortune out of it. That's ordinary, run of the mill evil for you. (And it's not at all distant from us westerners either--we just substitute scientists in white coats for the witch doctors and pretend not to notice what goes on behind the laboratory doors.).

D+1 said:

Well, I'll buy the feed part, but there isn't much (any?) practical D&D magic devoted to housing, clothing, or education of the masses. Feed only gets credit because of Create Food & Water and Plant Growth.

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As soon as food is secure and in surplus, it allows people to focus on other things with their 'free' time. Historically, it was improvements in agriculture that freed people to become craftsmen, etc, thus leading to improvements in all areas of life.

I think the early decades of telephones is a reasonable comparison with magic in this instance. At first, very few people had a phone and it was concentrated in a few locations. Over time, the phone network was extended with the wealthier members of society and large cities having access to it the most. The village only has access to a single public phone box (if they were lucky). Many people knew about telephones but few had access to them or used them only in emergencies.

Magic, of course, is not as easily replicated as technology is, so the spread is constrained by the number of practitioners which will never be as high as the number of devices (telephones) which can be continuously produced.

Which brings up the question of magic items. As a general rule their cost and the desire of the powerful to own them would mean they will not be concentrated with the commoner. But would this always be the case?

Personally if I was a high level cleric of a healing god who is trying to extend the influence of civilisation and the faithful, and knowing that without the powerbase of the commoner that influence is at risk, I would want to help ensure the survival of the community. I would create non-portable (cannot be stolen) items to help those villages and thorpes further out from the power centres - a fountain, an altar, a stature, etc. Think of a Lourdes every 50 miles . Or I would provide those who perform pastoral care (the village cleric), the wand with cure disease, etc, for emergencies.

Or, to put a different spin on it...

Imagine, like the feudal lords of Japan, you have a stronghold of highly respected and revered people every 50-100 miles. We are speaking historically of the Shao Lin Monestaries, but in this here fantastic setting, the strongholds of powerful clerics and or mages who cast spells benevolently, if not without ulterior motives...

Just by existing, they threaten your power base, because they represent another powerful heirarchy outside of your own. They have armies at their disposal.

If, at any time, they deem you a threat to their religion, followers or power, not only will THEY be against you, but a good number of commoners will flock to their side to help remove you from power.

The answer (historically): destroy the monestaries.

If you don't subjugate the religions to secular power by restricting their military power, you might find yourself in a theocracy. Examine the Arabic world, where religion has so much say in the culture that EVERY aspect of life is touched by religious edicts- many of those countries were monarchies, democracies or dictatorships before they were virtual/actual theocracies.

Oops! Gotta go watch Godzilla vs Hedorah on Sci-Fi!

On Evil Gods

I'd imagine in most D&D worlds the evil gods aren't surpressed and alienated and driven away like they would be in a typical Judeo-Christian inspired setting. They are accepted authorities of everything they govern, and ignoring even a god you're not a fan of could result in very unpleasant consequences...

...think of the story of the ancient Greek prince, who dedicated himself so lovingly to the virgin goddess Artemis that Aphrodite felt jilted -- and he wound up cursed.....

Similarly, Hextor will have a personal vendetta if you jilt him. You may donate to his church just ensure that he *doesn't* bug you...after all, it's the squeaky wheel that gets the grease, and if Hextor notices you being lax in your donations, you could find all the evil he represents beating down your doorstep. You don't have to *like* Hextor, or even *condone* him, but if you don't sacrifice to him, you, your family, your friends, and folks you don't even know might end up crushed beneath his fist. Of course, you might give plenty *more* to Heironeous, but you want good just as much as you don't want bad.

LostSoul said:

While this may be true for Wizards, it doesn't need to hold true for Clerics. Clerics have different motivations, and that may mean that Chaotic Evil Clerics will be willing to cast Cure Disease and even Raise Dead for free.

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I'm going to disagree, but try to do so without getting into an alignment debate.

Using the Core D&D Deities and excluding racial deities, the evil gods are Nerull, Vecna, Hextor, and Erythinul. (One could reasonably clump Wee Jas in here as well.)

Three of those deities deal in aspects of death, so I really can't see their priests offering healing except to thier servants/lackeys. Almost all of them cannot organize in typical settings (cities, etc) unless the city is extremely tollerant (Sigil) or evil. That adds a risk of danger to these priests operating in view, and selling their services would make them targets.

Thus, evil priests cannot reliably depend on money from healings because its against thier ethos or dangerous to advertise. (Why do most evil priests sack helpless cities and rule over goblin tribes? make money.)

Except when its in the best interest of the deity, church or priest, I don't expect many will be willing to sell thier services. So, if you keep that in mind, you can safely subtract them from the "total spellcasters" number when firguring out who can help the PCs heal or make magical items.

Lastly: This IS assuming a typical mostly good adventuring party, of course.

Bumping this thread, because it's too good to die. I'll go back and read carefully, and if I have something worth adding, I'll just edit this post.

Kamikaze Midget said:

I'd imagine in most D&D worlds the evil gods aren't surpressed and alienated and driven away like they would be in a typical Judeo-Christian inspired setting. They are accepted authorities of everything they govern, and ignoring even a god you're not a fan of could result in very unpleasant consequences...

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Riiight. Whatever happened to the idea that you don't sacrifice or even say the name of evil gods?

It's one thing when it's Wee Jas, deity of Death and Magic [thats funeral rites that is] or even when the kingdom is in the grip of a terrible plague, and you sacrifice to Incabulos, bringer of plagues, but all, say, Erythnul lives for is slaughter and such.
Thats public rampage killings, slow torture, killing parents in front of the kids, etc. etc.
Not someone you want to attract the attention of.