The Common Commoner

VirgilCaine

First Post
Wombat said:
Very interesting thoughts.

Since there are so many marauding monsters, the lives of the peasants must be even more fatalisitic than in European peasant communities -- "We can't control 'em, we aren't given the weapons, and they keep the magic locked up in the towns!" (Hmmm, might be some very serious resentment there...) Raids twice a day would lead to a grossly high mortality rate, a very low crop yield (constantly tramelling over the fields), and a general sense of doom, unless we are counting a single wolf as a "raid". Goblins and kobolds would be fairly commonly seen, at least.

This would suggest that the peasants are more seriously drilled as a militia than in a standard European community -- they would have to be able to drive off incursions on a more regular basis, thus the injunctions against peasants owning weapons would probably fall by the wayside. The weapons might not be stellar, but the number of spears around the scatter would be much larger than a European community of, say, 1400 AD.

Every peasant would have seen magic actually working, often publically. This would make for a very different attitude; of course this is already built into D&D, since there is no fear of witches, wizards, etc. Low level potions, while not everyday, are available and kept in store; this makes for safer medicine than anything practiced prior to the mid-19th century, so maybe that helps balance out life expectancy from the raiding.

I have no idea why people think that all peasants were unarmed. Not true.

In at least one place in the medieval world, it was illegal to disarm a free man, even his own lord was barred from disarming him. This was cited in Gary Kleck's book Armed, just to establish sources here.

With lots of nasty creatures around, I'm betting that a lot more peasants will have nice, sharp, billhooks, staves, slings, and even crossbows than their historical counterparts.

As for magic, in that 200 person thorp, theres a bard and a wizard, with lots of spells that look pretty, and lots of feast days--40, according to a show on the History Channel, that means lots of displays of magical entertainment.
 
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silentspace

First Post
I've always tried to make my worlds as "default" as possible, and I agree mostly with what KM has said.

Let me share with you how I've reconciled some of the issues you guys are discussing.

First, I decided that the smaller communities are basically unsustainable on their own. They simply cannot survive, as the first random hostile creature to pass through will wipe them out. In addition to the physical danger posed by hostile creatures, there is the economic factor. How can a thorp produce all the goods and services needed for long-term survival? The inhabitants simply don't have the skills.

So each small community needs to be near a powerful protector, and near a strong economic center. These are often the same place, but could be separate. The thorp's protector could be a local keep, a feudal lord with a manor house, a local sheriff's station, a border watch tower, a larger walled town with a military force, etc. The thorp's economic center will usually be another town, or perhaps a cluster of thorps, which will allow for some individuals to have the specialized skills necessary for survival (i.e. craft and profession skills). Neither center should be further than a day's journey from the thorp.

While this doesn't have to be a feudal system, the typical European feudal system, as I understand it, fits the bill perfectly.

Additionally, there are more civilized, settled areas, that have been already cleared of most dangers. In this case, the smaller settlements will still require close-by economic centers, but the military centers can be smaller or further in-between.

So the commoners weren't often facing the hostile creatures. I agree they would be armed, at the very least with farming implements, but that's not much against a CR 4 encounter. In areas that are especially dangerous, a small community would have a designated runner, someone with a mount or at least the Run feat, who could get away to call for help.
 

Arnwyn

First Post
jmucchiello said:
I wanted something a bit more toolkit-ish. Not everyone uses the FR deities.
Indeed. I was just thanking my lucky stars that I have that info (and have been using it for years) already.
I also wanted the results to be a bit more than the 3-4 paragraphs found in the F&A (awesome 2e book). Things like: when founding a new temple to so-and-so, what materials are required when building it, what layout is used, are there days on which building should/should not occur? Extend these idiocracies to all aspects of the priest's life.
Good stuff - I'd think that'd be very valuable for any campaign; even an FR one with the F&A books available.

Based on this (and the entire thread), it shows just how little and not readily available information regarding the "every day life" of those in a D&D world. I've always felt that things like demographics, trade, and the economy has been horribly neglected. Ah well - people just keep telling me it "doesn't sell".
The other cool thing in F&A, that I wish was address in a core book somewhere, is the titles for clerics of specific deities. Clerics of some deities would not call themselves priests.
Absolutely. We use that every single session.
 

VirgilCaine

First Post
arnwyn said:
Based on this (and the entire thread), it shows just how little and not readily available information regarding the "every day life" of those in a D&D world. I've always felt that things like demographics, trade, and the economy has been horribly neglected. Ah well - people just keep telling me it "doesn't sell".

However, some of that information can be gotten on the 'Net for free. Or at least some base to start extrapolating from.

The Domesday Book
http://rpglibrary.blackgate.net/utils/meddemog/

Medieval Demographics Made Easy
http://www.io.com/~sjohn/demog.htm
 

jasper

Rotten DM
good thread. You forgot bows, slings, arrows and other simple weapons.
Just because he uses a pitchfork everyday does not mean that he can't use without minus one simple weapon. sickle, dagge, mace,club, short spear etc.
So what would happen is even the village is getting attack twice a day. There would be a bump in xp for all adults responsing to the goblin gong. And after a while it would have arguements or fights about who gets first shot at the goblin. Papa Piratecat would cry the teenagers and Astreix took more than their fair share last attack.
It a great begining. and Does point the pcs and npc start out as the college grads of the universe and become the rock stars, donald trumps of the world.
But as always once you support your arguement the logical Fallacies in the game start poking holes into it. Let someone pt out where does all these monster get their magic from.
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
Someone else mentioned that there is a big difference between where you live and where you travel to. That has an impact on this contention as well:

* With this capacity, half of the places in the entire world do not have access to 2nd level spells. You'd be shelling out about 10-20 gp to get any spell cast -- still far beyond the limits of even your most industrious commoner, who makes 1 sp/day, maybe slightly more often for the aristocrat (but it's still a BIG investment.) He might be able to afford a Cure Light Wounds once or twice a month. Same with create water. Assuming a good 700 people, that's enough to keep the local cleric, druid, or adept busy watering fields, healing wounds, giving good luck and bad luck, repairing an expensive peice of jewelry.

Half the world does not have access to 2nd level spells in the town where they live. However, half the world does. And since it is not at all uncommon for villages to be a half-day's travel apart, you will probably find that most of the world knows where one might find 2nd level spells--maybe even 3rd level spells. So, I would expect that your average aristocrat (who represents what in this case? Obviously not landed nobility if there's a significant number in every village; perhaps the "aristocrats" are the wealthy farm-owners who have slaves or peasants toiling in their fields) may, at times when someone in his family is sick, make a pilgrimage to a nearby town where there is a priest or adept who can cast Remove Disease. Similarly, in the town unfortunate enough not to have a proper cleric, odds are good that there is one who lives in the next village over and who may ride through town once a week on Godsday to teach the tenets of St. Cuthbert and cure the local militia. And when a militia member is wounded in the middle of the night in a skirmish with the goblin raiders, they stabilize him, pack him on a wagon and dispatch the wagon with guards to the neighboring village as soon as possible lest he die before the priest comes to town. (That would actually provide a good adventure hook for 1st level characters as long as there were no clerics in the party).
 

Elder-Basilisk

First Post
Piratecat said:
Well, I'd argue that very few cleric PCs end their day, every day, with no spells left because they've cast them all on villagers or cityfolk. It's a little tricky to mandate that every day. I suspect that like most English pastors, a small town cleric would make the rounds to everyone's house over the course of a week to check up on his flock. A city cleric would let people come to them.

This brings up the fascinating power of the church (and multiple churches) in a commoner's life. The church would weild phenomenal power. Think about it: not only can they damn your soul to hell, but if you have an argument with the cleric then your daughter might die while giving birth, just because the church has excluded you and a cleric isn't attending. No one wants to take the risk that their family will die of disease, so they'd be at church every time.

And in a town with two churches? I can definitely see "us vs them" social problems, and lots of intrigue when someone changes churches or marries a person from the other religion.

I think this whole line of thought floes from transplanting social structures and ideas from monotheistic Christian cultures onto D&D religions. If nobody expects devotion to Heironeous to exclude prayers to Pelor and St. Cuthbert then there's not necessarily any problem with there being shrines to both deities in a town.

The other change in dynamic that you might find is that there is no "pastor" and he has no "flock" to check on. I rather imagine shrines of Heironeous being similar to the Granges of St. Gird in the Deeds of Paksenarrion series--a combination martial arts school and Rotary club. The shrine of Pelor might well have rituals that people attend and a priest of Pelor might go from house to house, visiting people, but I doubt a cleric of St. Cuthbert would be so inclined. A cleric of Wee Jas would almost certainly be reclusive. If people came to his shrine to make offerings to the Stern Lady or to implore her for her gifts, he would answer, but the town is not his flock. A cleric of Boccob might well fill the role of a witch doctor.

The office of the village priest or pastor that you allude to seems to me to be a specifically Christian one. It is more likely that D&D clerics would not follow this model than that they would.
 


I'm A Banana

Potassium-Rich
I think it's quite a leap to go from "adventurers wandering the countryside have a 10% chance of an encounter" to "monsters attack farms twice daily." Even if a monster attack only had a 1% chance of killing one person, monsters would kill seven people per year. Real raids, which you'd expect to kill multiple people, would wipe out a 1,000-person community in a few months.
Not when there's 9th level commoners, 8th level warriors, a bard, a cleric, a druid, 2 fighters, and a barbarian to handle them. And that's if none of the others pop up.

These people have XP. These people have levels. They have healers. Much of the time, they wound the goblins, beat up the gnolls, and let them maybe raid a barn in exchange for their lives. They have losses, but at that 1% chance, those 7 people/year, those are more than made up for by the births in the community. :)

You are overlooking how powerful Cure Minor Wounds is when used on commoners with d4 hit points. The 2nd level cleric has access to 2 CLW and 4 CmW. A CmW spell will stabilize someone who is dying. Thus the cleric could hit the guy run over by a horse with CmW and use normal healing to bring him back up to normal health. In a pinch, he can stabilize 6 wounded people till morning.
The peasants fighting off the hordes don't have 1d4 hp. They've got 9d4 (still small, but significantly better). They've got 6d8. They've got the occasional 2d6. CmW is useful to stop death, CLW is useful during the thick of those nightly raids.

Also, this priest needs an 11 Wis to cast 1st level spells. Wouldn't a good percentage of 2nd level priest have a slightly higher Wis? Some of these thrope and hamlets have a 2nd level priest with a 12 Wis and thus he can do 3 CLWs a day.
No, they wouldn't. 'average' NPC stats are 10's or 11's, plus racial modifiers. No race in the PHB has a bonus to Intelligence, Charisma, or Wisdom. All spellcasters, even those with PC classes, are limited to 1st level spells. A few (maybe 5%) might have 'elite' stats, but all those really do is make him better at keeping the militia alive. The real benefit is the scrolls of cure light wounds that he can produce, since those give him extra castings of the spell for emergencies, for tough encounters, etc.

Right, because after casting a spell, or channeling energy the cleric is exhausted (-6 str/dex). Er, no, maybe fatigued (-2 str/dex), er no again. He has a penalty to his next action. Er, no, none whatsoever.
Well, weapon-weilders don't get those penalties either, but it's pretty exhausting swinging around a 6' hunk of sharp metal all day, isn't it? Just because there is no mechanical penalty doesn't mean that they're as hale and healthy as when they started...

If so much of the population is as poor as this thread assumes, where the heck do all the critters get all their magic items and treasure from? Assuming you use the treasure tables in the DMG. Surely they get that kind of treasure by raiding normal towns. Are there that many adventurers that lose their stuff to the baddies?
They don't get treasure from towns, though they may get food...they get treasure from their lairs, namely, the dungeons. That's where the Ancient Cities kept their stuff, but if the Ancient Cities fell, then they're just chillin' there with all that magic waiting to be harvested...monsters collect this not to buy things, but to consoslidate power.

First, I decided that the smaller communities are basically unsustainable on their own. They simply cannot survive, as the first random hostile creature to pass through will wipe them out. In addition to the physical danger posed by hostile creatures, there is the economic factor. How can a thorp produce all the goods and services needed for long-term survival? The inhabitants simply don't have the skills.
The little magic the town does have is 100% dedicated to making the town sustainable, I think....+1 to your Profession (farmer) roles isn't a bit of extra, it's a nessecity when beasts strike.

Just because he uses a pitchfork everyday does not mean that he can't use without minus one simple weapon. sickle, dagge, mace,club, short spear etc.
So what would happen is even the village is getting attack twice a day. There would be a bump in xp for all adults responsing to the goblin gong. And after a while it would have arguements or fights about who gets first shot at the goblin. Papa Piratecat would cry the teenagers and Astreix took more than their fair share last attack.
It a great begining. and Does point the pcs and npc start out as the college grads of the universe and become the rock stars, donald trumps of the world.
Indeed, the militia will probably have clubs, spears, quarterstaffs....and the knights the king says in will be even better equipped.

And I don't think peasants (or anyone in the campaign world) are very aware of XP as a tangible effect. All they know is that Toothless Joe has survived more goblin attacks than any of the whippersnappers out there, has got the scars to prove it, and obviously isn't a pushover, even though he's never done anything but farm beets his entire life. :)
 

Umbra

First Post
A few points:

Payment for spells cast need not be in gold (cash) but in goods and services that can be provided for over time. Borm the dairy farmer provides the local cleric with cheese every week for saving his wife; little Onka comes and cleans the shrine; etc.

The deity involved is crucial to how the cleric interacts with the village but any deity would want their representative to get involved in the community in ways which spread the faith and promote the deities causes. For any good deity, this would be helping the people in times of need or helping people to help themselves.

Non-magical healing is available and the village will have many 'experts' with home remedies and a little healing skill. Indeed, the cleric may be active in promoting these skills so the villages are self reliant and useful when a large emergency takes place.

The cleric will also have visitors - higher level clerics and other church personages, representatives of various powers that be.

Silentspace said:
So each small community needs to be near a powerful protector,

Or have a powerful protector regularly patrol the area.

Also, the DMG figures are for people who live in the town and doesn't take into account transients. Adventuring parties will be passing through (your groups is) and the village urchins watch in awe as flaming arrows shoot from the rangers bow as he practices one afternoon. The merchant caravan from gnome community in the nearby hills visits monthly with their prestidigitation performances. The fantasy news service (bards) regularly drops by. Etc.

Even if magic is not seen directly by every villager every day, the farmer who saw the Lord's Patrol blast the giant beetle out of existence will be telling the story in the local pub for the rest of his life.

Finally, the DMG provides averages. It doesn't account for the semi retired sorceror who has comeback to her family's home for the twilight of her life and can toss out a 5th level spell or three if she needs to.

I think the common commoner has had a lot less experience than the PC's but I think they have had a lot more than is being suggested.

In regards to the encounters taking place twice per day. That's encounters scaled to the PC's. Any good DM will have encounters of appropriate EL's. The farmer's wife deals with the fox in the hen house, etc.
 

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