CR Paradox

lior_shapira · Aug 20, 2004

This might be an old old topic or I might be totally wrong :\ , but here it goes...

The DMG says an NPC gets CR equal to his level. But if a group of four 9th level characters face their evil clones, they should be way too much for them to handle (CR9 x 4). The clones are also facing an encounter very very tough for them (CR9 x 4). So who has the upper hand? Now let's say four CR9 giants(for instance) appear, shouldn't they be able to squash both parties?

I gotta be wrong somewhere, it doesnt make sense

Patryn of Elvenshae · Aug 20, 2004

When doubling the number of creatures of the same CR, increase the EL by 2.

Thus, 2 CR 9 creatures is an EL 11 encounter, and 4 is an EL 13 encounter.

As you note, an EL 4 above Average Party Level is a very difficult encounter, and will consume a large number of party resources. Expect the possiblity one or more character deaths.

Ridley's Cohort · Aug 20, 2004

You misunderstand.

A single CR 9 critter is the recommended run of the mill encounter for a party of 4 9th level characters. They are the heroes and therefore expected to kick its behind 99+% of the time.

In truth a CR 13 encounter (4 CR 9 opponents) usually still favors the party because of differences of equipment and stats help the PCs. An exact copy evil twin party would easily be a strong CR 14 encounter. I would call it CR 15 if the DM is skilled at playing the (N)PCs well in a complex combat. (Four players can easily outthink most DMs in a fair fight.) Obviously such a fight runs a high risk of multiple PC deaths, and do not be shocked by a TPK.

Giants and other brute monsters do well if the combat is quick and violent. Give that party of 4 9th level PCs a single round to prep, and they have a fair shot of defeating 4 Fire Giants if they pull out all stops. Do not be surprised if one or two PCs die though.

kigmatzomat · Aug 20, 2004

You're right, if you make clones the opponents, you get CR=EL+4. The reason is that at +4 you're at a likely TPK. Which makes sense since party + antiparty = blood splatter & corpses.

A Typical (CR=EL) encounter is the comfort zone. It's enough to threaten the party but not overwhelm it. At CR=EL+2 there's the potential of bad dice mauling someone. At CR=EL+4 you would expect at least half the party to be decimated. CR>EL+4 will result in increasingly short times before TPK.

A good GM won't plan for the party to fight anything past EL+3. The campaign-ending boss fight could be an EL+4, but otherwise it's too risky. That doesn't mean it won't happen (players is wacky) but that the GM won't be intending that to happen. I recently put them in an EL+20 situation recently and they were patently aware of it so they avoided a fight, which is what I intended. Had a character done something stupid there'd have been a blue flash and the smell of scorched meat as the party underwent a stupidectomy.

the Jester · Aug 20, 2004

kigmatzomat said:
A good GM won't plan for the party to fight anything past EL+3.

I disagree. But it's all a matter of style and taste.

MoogleEmpMog · Aug 21, 2004

I usually run one combat encounter per session, EL +5 or thereabouts, with plenty of opportunities for both sides to take a tactical advantage and win. The PCs and NPCs alike have chances to seize the upper hand during battle, but they also both (usually) had the chance to get a leg up on their opponents during the roleplaying/non-combat part of the session - a chance that, as a rule, leans more toward the PCs.

I find that I, and my players, generally prefer this pacing to the 'fight a weak monster, use up your resources' x 4 system. Same amount of combat, but concentrated into a single, intense, life-or-death struggle between basically full-strength forces.

Impeesa · Aug 21, 2004

If I recall correctly, CR = party level should be a fairly average encounter, consuming about 25% of the party resources. CR or EL = party level + 4, as in the case of the four evil clones, should be much more difficult - roughly 50/50 chance of either side making it out. Makes sense, given that the two parties would be equal.

--Impeesa--

rushlight · Aug 21, 2004

Impeesa is correct, a CR equal to the party's level should be a good fight, using up a quarter of the resources a party has.

Here's why one 9th level guy is a CR 9 challenge for a 9th level party:

The creatures used to fight the party have no restrictions on use of resources. It's not that the PCs have restrictions designed by the game, it's that the party will not usually use every spell, charged item, or potion during a single battle. A party will generally keep expendable stuff in reserve, since they've got to fight more battles before curing and restocking.

So if you 9th level party gets cloned, and you (the DM) are controlling the clones, it wouldn't occur to you to save that "Potion of Complete Healing, Refreshment, Bull's Strength, and total Butt-Kicking for 10 Rounds" against the party. But chances are, the party will save something like that for when there's serious trouble (usually after the fighter has gone down, everyone's wounded, and the dragon is making his thrid pass...)

The clones would use every charged item, spell, or whatever. There's no need for them to save those - they are not relevent once the battle is over. They don't plan for the future. PCs must consider not only what they are facing now, but what they may face in the future.

The same logic applies in reverse when considering some monsters as PCs. A monster with a spell-like ability to Chain-Lightning at will would make a tough enemy. It would make an insanely powerful PC. The monster (as a challenge) will get to use that "at-will" ability three or four times perhaps - usually up until the PCs kill it and take it's stuff. A PC would use it every encounter, many times. The difference in those things is again that PC abilities last over time, and monster abilities last for only one combat.

Ridley's Cohort · Aug 21, 2004

OTOH, a 9th level NPC spellcaster has a lot of resources that will probably never be used, unless the DM metagames and retractively casts a huge load of buffs.

Ridley's Cohort · Aug 21, 2004

This simple answer to the original post... The "fair fight" for a party of 4 9th level PCs, where each side has an equal chance of prevailing, is approximately CR 14. But preparation makes a big difference.