"Epic" progression after 6th level

Ry · Feb 13, 2007

gamecat said:
While a 6th level cap doesn't appeal to me, I find the epic rules kinda wonky - a 20th level cap would be kinda cool.

If 6th seems too low, you might be interested in trying 12th. From reading all these discussions of the "sweet spot." there are a lot of campaigns that get bogged down just after that, or because the GM is getting burned out trying to build a world that goes past that.

Ry · Feb 13, 2007

mhensley said:
Why didn't you allow wizards as a class? What feats do you consider overpowering that made you cap skill ranks at 9 and bab at +6? Sorry for all the questions, but this idea has really sparked my interest.

Sparks good - sparks lead to fire, fire being actually sitting down at the game table more often.

At the time, I didn't allow wizards as a class because wizards can just keep learning spell after spell w/o any xp. But in practise, I didn't actually enforce that limitation, and it was never a problem. The PC wizard wasn't overpowering, and he didn't hog the spotlight, even when he'd been at 6th level for quite a while (I think he's sitting at 12 feats past 6th now, with many PCs still around 4th or 5th level due to character retirements and new players).

The reason I don't let skill ranks past 9 and BAB past +6 is because feats that are built around higher BABs and Skill Ranks are feats built for higher-level D&D. Just like 7th level spells aren't what I'm trying for, the feats designed to appeal to high level fighters don't match the 6th level thing.

Ry · Feb 14, 2007

GreatLemur said:
This sounds--in theory--like something I keep wishing for in both pen-and-paper and computer RPGs: Character progression that's more about gaining options and abilities rather than raw power. This seems like a weird kludge, but extremely interesting. I'd really love to see the whole idea developed more. It could make a great PDF product.

You know, I'd be really tempted to do it as a $1 PDF if I could get some kind of art for it. Mostly the PDF would be "how to have fun with this" and some examples, since the rules are such an easy hack.

mhensley · Feb 14, 2007

rycanada said:
If 6th seems too low, you might be interested in trying 12th. From reading all these discussions of the "sweet spot." there are a lot of campaigns that get bogged down just after that, or because the GM is getting burned out trying to build a world that goes past that.

8th level looks like an interesting cap as well. That's the cut off before world altering spells like raise dead.

Eolin · Feb 14, 2007

But at 6th, you only have 3rd level spells, everyone just got a feat, and fighter-types -- and only fighter types -- just got an extra attack.

At 8th level, clerics and rogue's have a second attack as well... and there are fourth level spells.

mhensley · Feb 14, 2007

rycanada said:
The reason I don't let skill ranks past 9 and BAB past +6 is because feats that are built around higher BABs and Skill Ranks are feats built for higher-level D&D. Just like 7th level spells aren't what I'm trying for, the feats designed to appeal to high level fighters don't match the 6th level thing.

I'm guessing that the feats you're talking about come from outside the core rules. I only see two or three feats in the phb that require >6 bab and none that require high skill ranks.

mhensley · Feb 14, 2007

Eolin said:
But at 6th, you only have 3rd level spells, everyone just got a feat, and fighter-types -- and only fighter types -- just got an extra attack.

At 8th level, clerics and rogue's have a second attack as well... and there are fourth level spells.

True, 6th level is probably about right. Looking through the MM last night, I could see that around 90% of the monsters are usable (up to 10EL) with this. Once you get much past that, you have to start bringing in demons and stuff to challenge a party or else start adding class levels to everything. Capping parties at 6 would make running games a lot easier.

Ry · Feb 14, 2007

mhensley said:
I'm guessing that the feats you're talking about come from outside the core rules. I only see two or three feats in the phb that require >6 bab and none that require high skill ranks.

Absolutely - but adding splatfeats was a handy selling point for players in my campaign. The players still have fun tweaking up their characters.

Ry · Feb 14, 2007

mhensley said:
Capping parties at 6 would make running games a lot easier.

You get the added benefit that the players never think of an aboleth as something they'll outgrow.

"AAAH! An ABOLETH!"

Watch them run. So good.

Darklone · Feb 14, 2007

Eolin said:
But at 6th, you only have 3rd level spells, everyone just got a feat, and fighter-types -- and only fighter types -- just got an extra attack.

At 8th level, clerics and rogue's have a second attack as well... and there are fourth level spells.

I'd go for 8th level as cap because the medium BAB guys get their second attack. IME fightertypes still benefit greatly from the extra points to hit at that level and their advantage concerning hitpoints starts to show more and more. 4th level spells are great... I do think most game breakers come at 6th level, some at 5th level but Raise Dead is usually too cost intensive.