"Epic" progression after 6th level

Ry · Jun 14, 2007

Actually, I found the opposite in my games. Wizards really shine. The reason, I think, is the change in setting assumptions.

For example, if you want to have a village of 100 people, they're ALL 1st level commoners, maybe 2 first level warriors, maybe an expert.

The fact that if they all stood in a crowd, the wizard could kill them all with a few words (I'm talking fireball here) - that's scary. A fighter knows he could survive that, but who knows what else the wizard can do? Turn invisible? Protect himself from arrows?

Basically, if you cap at 6th, there's less of the arms race: "but my spell beats that" - "but my goggles counteract your invisibility" - "but I've got boots that do that anyway" - "WE'll just raise him from the dead"

Magic is powerful under these rules.

Quartz · Jun 14, 2007

Here's a suggestion for you: any character capable of casting Divine spells (or perhaps an appropriate feat, like Devoted) can pray for a Miracle - assuming they've got 5000 XP to spare. The chance would be 1% per spellcaster level per full day of continuous prayer. So a Ftr 2 / Cl 4 would have a 4% chance the first day, 8% chance the next day, 12% the third etc. Get two 6th level clerics and it's 12%, 24%, 36%, etc. This would allow for removal of negative levels, raising of the dead, Commune, etc.

BTW even a 6th level commoner (17 HP) will fall to a 6th level fireball (21 HP) on a failed save.

Ry · Jun 14, 2007

What I'd recommend instead for negative levels / raising the dead (if you really want it), would be incantations, from UA. Like a 3-day long ritual that can remove a negative level, that requires some big Knowledge:Religion checks, maybe some test that the aspirant has to complete. Miracle (and I'm guessing you mean the wishlike spell) and generalized requirements for it I think opens up more possibilities than I really want.

Dragonblade275 · Jun 15, 2007

rycanada said:
If your guys would be amenable to something even more rules-light, drop me a line once you're done Shackled City. Around then I'll be looking for more external playtesters for Legends, which might have some appeal if you like to run things fast.

We'll keep that in mind, Ryan.

GrolloStoutfoam · Jun 20, 2007

I find your ideas fascinating and would like to subscribe to your newsletter

I've been inspired to run a campaign (my first in decades) and love this idea. I always see campaigns die when the characters are around 12th level because of PC power. Please count me in if you ever need any more playtesters and consider this yoinked!

I'm A Banana · Jun 20, 2007

Not really my cup of tea, but seems good for a low-power feel, while still giving the PC's something to look forward to after a few successful adventures.

How do you do magic items? It would strike me that there would be a lot of quantity of low-quality under this rubrick.

Ry · Jun 20, 2007

Grollo: I'm just doing a revision to Legends right now, playtesting on the weekend with the local D&D meetup. I'll let you know when I need playtesters next - you wouldn't by any chance be Toronto-local, would you?

Midget: To be honest, I never really had a strategy, per se, for magic items. Sometimes we'd roll, sometmies I'd just skip the roll and give something I thought was appropriate. I think I'm more likely to err on the low side. Still, whatever the PCs find tends to be disposable - but not easily tradeable, since the economy doesnt' assume there are wizards with $100,000 gp stashed around.

phindar · Jun 20, 2007

Would you expect to see more magic item crafting with a level cap? If you figure a caster takes the item crafting feats available to them under the level cap (Magic Arms and Armor, Scroll, Potion, Wand and Wonderous, give or take), they could pump out a whole party's worth of items and only be a feat or so behind the rest of the group. It might not be something a pc would do (if all your feats are crafter feats, its kind of like having no feats at all), but I could definitely see taking Leadership at 6th and taking a caster/crafter as a cohort.

Would you consider that a loophole to be closed? Even so, if I were playing a caster it'd make Craft Wand very attractive. (Especially if the GM allows the base material cost of items to be picked up in play, such as using the horn of a red dragon of the appropriate age to make a Wand of Fireballs.)

evilbob · Jun 20, 2007

The crafting rules would be extremely strange but probably not abusable in this system. For one, you can't craft an item with an enhancement bonus of greater than +2 in this world, since caster level = 3 x bonus is the formula. There are also very, very few special abilities that could be done (traits with a caster level of 6 or less), so you'd never see a +1 flaming longsword, either (caster level 8th). The vast majority of wonderous items are also out, due to the rule limits: you could never have a +2 ability item (no more Gloves of Dex +2) since they are caster level 8th, and you could never make any bracers of armor - even +1 requires caster level 7th. You could make an amulet of natural armor +1 (caster level 5th), but +2 and above is out. Potions would rule, though!

In any case, having a maximum 4th level crafting cohort would mean that your crafting options are severly restricted. The point about wands is a good one, but again you're limited to 3rd level spells even if you're doing it yourself, so I don't think it'd get out of hand. The relative value of such an item would be much higher, however.

That aside, this idea also intrigues me. I don't think raising the level cap would be a particularly good idea, because the "7-10" range is the one that is the most brutal for many classes (especially multiclass characters). I hate that range the most of all levels. And if you're going to go over 10, you might as well not limit folks.

However, I would think giving access to some higher level abilities might be nice, even if it was through the "feat" mechanic. Then again, it's probably not fair to let a ranger somehow gain the ability to hide in plain sight if the wizard can't throw 4th level spells and the rogue never does more than +3d6 sneak attack, either.

Are there any feats you use that would allow a caster access to a single (or more) higher level spell (but without the caster level)?

Ry · Jun 21, 2007

evilbob basically summed up why magic items don't get too powerful in the setting, especially the ones your cohort makes.

As for higher level abilities... there so far hasn't been a need. I think if you want more powerful spells there are lots of feats for enhancing existing spells and lots of sources for spells from different niches. For example, the Sudden Metamagic feats from Complete Arcane are very good.