"Epic" progression after 6th level

Khuxan · Jun 24, 2007

Nifft said:
The SW Saga classes all look like this:

Level 1: Starting Feats, Defense Bonus, Talent
Level 2: Bonus Feat
Level 3: Talent
Level 4: Bonus Feat
Level 5: Talent
Level 6: Bonus Feat
... etc.

The only differences are skills, hit die, and defense bonus. All the rest is bonus feats and talent trees.

If you multi-class, you get one of your new class's Starting Feats (not all of them) -- this allows front-loading without encouraging multi-classing too much.

So the interesting thing here would be to break down class abilities into Talents and Feats, and then to establish "Epic" XP prices for these Talents & Feats.

Ah, I do like that idea because it does seem with 6th-level D&D multiclass characters are 'missing out' - a sorcerer 5/barbarian 1 never gets 3rd-level spells and that seems a pity, particularly when the fighter 6 gets more and more of his only class feature.

One change I would recommend is either abolishing class skills, or creating a feat which makes a skill a class skill - because otherwise in Saga once you hit 6th-level there's no way to become trained in a skill unless it's already a class skill. (I think that's how it works).

Ry · Jun 25, 2007

I'd definitely allow a feat to grant a new class skill, and feats that help you get up from 5th-level sorc to 6th-level equivalent sorcerer. Those are totally OK with me.

I did some playtesting today at a local games club; characters were 1st level using my death and conviction rules, with players rolling all the dice (so it was Epic 6th Level, but starting at 1st). That gave me a lot to think about rules-wise.

Ry · Jun 25, 2007

Remember, if you could get there inside of 6th levels, I'm happy making it available via feat chain. Each part of that chain has to be judged against other feats, but that's not that hard.

Bloosquig · Jun 25, 2007

I've been fiddling with making a simple to understand start up game for some friends I'm trying to get into roleplaying games and this has given me several ideas. Thanks and keep the info coming.

Ry · Jun 25, 2007

Welcome, Bloosquig!

One thing I'd recommend, make pregenerated characters with a simple, easy to read character sheet, and start the fun as soon as people are at the table.

I used a slightly modified The Other Game Company initiative card (blown up) as the "character sheet" and it worked really well. I made 12 1st-level PCs off of Goodman Games' free character .pdfs, and that meant there was lots of selection. That also meant that we were sitting for all of 10 minutes before we were really _doing_ something.

That's a big appeal for newbies. They want to play a game, and choosing a piece like Monopoly is more familiar than building it from scratch. Also, it's a great way to show the fun stuff right off the bat (hey, we're fighting goblins! And they have a treasure map!")

Asmor · Jun 25, 2007

Ry, here's an idea...

Change the multiclass rules so that instead of a straight addition, it's pseudo-gestalt. You only ever take the single best score in any of your classes. So for example, you could build up to, say, a level 6 barbarian/level 6 ranger... You'd still only have a +6 BAB, but you'd get all the ranger abilities up to level 6 and all the barbarian abilities up to level 6...

The biggest issue with this system I think is that you'd quickly end up with people getting +5 to all saves as they multiclass into different classes with different good saves.

Not really sure how to price it... I think I'd personally allow you to buy your levels in any order, and you just pay the appropriate amount of exp... For example, a level 3 wizard/level 2 monk could either pay 3000 exp to go to level 4 in wizard or 2000 exp to go to level 3 in monk.

It's got a bit of a built in exp penalty in the fact that you're really not gaining as much by buying levels you've already got... For example, a level 6 wizard who then buys 6 levels of fighter only gets +3 BAB and +3 Fort save, instead of +6 BAB, +5 fort, +2 ref and +2 will, but he still has to spend 15k exp on it... And as you accrue more and more classes, the benefits get even smaller until you're only buying class features with your exp.

Of course, on the other hand I guess you could take the view that class features are almost the same as feats... In that case, they level from 1 to 6 with normal costs, and then after level 6 they buy each level in other classes for 5000 exp a piece.

Land Outcast · Jun 25, 2007

Good as a higher powered variant, but think your idea doesn't quite mesh with "Ry20", mainly because it would greatly up the power at each step (even though the steps would be climbed slower).

The second option is telling the player that if he wants his character to grow in power, he'll have to diversify (at arriving at level 6, a feat is worth less than Rage1/day, or sneak attack +1d6, or lvl1 spells).
And "forcing" (or rather: offering two paths which take to the same place, but one is easier) players to do something is something I try to avoid (I know I don't like the fact that my Paladin9, Griffon Guard and Protector of Draco is mechanically weaker in kicking evil ass than the Paladin5/PrC4... but that's a rant for other day).

As you see, there's no solid argument, just my opinion...

BTW: great work here Ry!

Khuxan · Jun 25, 2007

Alright, all the base classes are available. Please tell me what you think, and if you find any typoes/layout problems.

One thing I tried to do was avoid having any classes reference other classes. The exception was the ranger, because its Animal Companion class feature entry is both similar to and different from the druid's, and I didn't want to screw up and miss out information.

Does anyone have any ideas for a better capstone ability for the rogue than "Trap Sense +2"? I can't think of a less appealing class feature.

Finally, I want to stat up a few 6th-level generals, archmages and so on. Anyone got any ideas?

A cover I knocked up in Photoshop

The cover was created from this image:
* Sample fractal image generated by the Electric Sheep project from sheep 10531
* Source: http://electricsheep.org/archive/generation-198/dead.cgi?id=10531 (Image)
* this sheep was designed by blazindime.

Ry · Jun 25, 2007

Hmm. Give me a few to think about these.

My initial reaction is not to touch things on the level of detail as the Trap Sense +2. While I agree it's a weak level 6 ability, we have to weigh customization against familiarity. When someone sits down to play who has played a D&D game before, and they brought their well-loved 3.5 PHB, I'd rather be able to just tell them the 1 page worth of house rules and say "Welcome to the game, roll up a character!" Poring the rules (say, so you can spot the difference between the Ry20 Rogue and the PHB rogue) is something I'd rather avoid for Ry20.

That said, if you want to get down to that level of detail, I'd say go for it, but make it into an optional rule / appendix ("Alternate Class Features"?)

Looks like I will soon have a regular weekly Ry20 game with a rotating player base, so luckily enough, I'll be able to do lots of playtesting.

Khuxan · Jun 25, 2007

rycanada said:
My initial reaction is not to touch things on the level of detail as the Trap Sense +2. While I agree it's a weak level 6 ability, we have to weigh customization against familiarity. When someone sits down to play who has played a D&D game before, and they brought their well-loved 3.5 PHB, I'd rather be able to just tell them the 1 page worth of house rules and say "Welcome to the game, roll up a character!" Poring the rules (say, so you can spot the difference between the Ry20 Rogue and the PHB rogue) is something I'd rather avoid for Ry20.

That said, if you want to get down to that level of detail, I'd say go for it, but make it into an optional rule / appendix ("Alternate Class Features"?)

That's actually what I intended. Sorry for not making that clearer. I agree the core rules should be unchanged from the SRD.

Another alternate rule I was considering was making Improved Critical require 6 levels of fighter. I think that'd be a nice boost for fighters to make sure people don't dip for two levels for the bonus feats.