"Epic" progression after 6th level

Earlier, someone posted an idea for turning some PRCs into Prestige Feats. Maybe you can try that out with your group? The sorcerer could take Mage of the Arcane Order feats to gain access to the spellpool, or incantrix feats to increase his proficiency with metamagic (casting empowered magic missiles at level 2...). I don't think these would make your characters too much more powerful (lack of addition to BAB and caster levels), but it would give them something to grow into.

Tidus4444 said:

Earlier, someone posted an idea for turning some PRCs into Prestige Feats. Maybe you can try that out with your group?

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I found the post; this looks like a _great_ idea. I'm definitely going to implement something like this; I'll probably decide xp costs on a case-by-case basis, letting the players collectively gauge the value of the class feature in question against a feat.

rycanada said:

See the response to Vrecknidj, above.

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Ah. Well, when the players and the DM are on the same page, it's hard to go TOO terribly wrong. It sounds like you're laying it all out for them, and talking about it intelligently. Since that is the case, the odds are pretty good that you and your players will discuss any issues that arise, or problems, and you will have first-hand knowledge and experience with those issues. Sounds like you've moving in the right direction, and to be quite honest, your playtesting of these proposed ideas will probably be more fruitful than anything I offer you here.

I'll offer my comments, anyway, but I think the best possible way to know will be to play it out. I hope, once you get six or eight months into your system, you post a follow-up to this thread, and let us know how it went. I'd personally be very interested to hear it, and if you don't post it, please shoot me an email at molonel@yahoo.com

I'd like to hear about it.

rycanada said:

This is the stuff I don't understand - why are all the feats like Item Creation? I thought the problem with Item Creation was how it hurt wizard characters relative to the rest of the party. I can see how my spell purchase rules do that, but not for the rest of the system. My players seemed to think this would get them to do more role-playing purchases, since they knew they could always get another feat later.

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Well, again, when you and your players are on the same page, I guess that is really the best indicator.

In practice, item creation feats really don't HURT anyone, especially if you allow them to create commissioned items for NPCs at book cost. An artificer (anyone with item creation feats) effectively doubles the value of their treasure. That's a big bonus. Most players lose XP if they are killed and raised from the dead, or resurrected. Someone who is creating items loses XP, and gets paid for it. Not a bad trade-off.

The reason I compared the two was because now gaining feats and skills burns XP.

rycanada said:

Now, as a related point, do you think my xp values for feat, skill, and stat purchases are set too high?

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There are too many variables to answer that intelligently. That depends entirely on the XP they gain from combat encounters, and the rate of advancement. Playtesting will reveal more than I can say.

rycanada said:

Again, I think I'm missing something here. Indefinitely?

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I didn't have QUITE as much information about how much your players are into the development of this concept. Scratch that question.

rycanada said:

Hmm... I was already... doing that? We were pretty much down to PHB, DMG, and MM, but the problems were cropping up at higher levels, not because players had access to things I didn't like. Of course, when I put in this new restriction, I'll open up the splatbooks for feats and spells, because I don't want to crush their customizability. But they weren't in before.

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It really sounds like you've thought this idea, and its consequences, rather thoroughly. I've spent a little more time reading your description, and thinking it through. You have (a) legitimate design reasons for implementing it, (b) your players agree with it and understand it, and (c) it seems for all intents and purposes to work.

rycanada said:

Yeah, this is true of me, as well. But I think we're talking past each other - I don't have any problems with players outsmarting my encounters (If I did, I'd have packed it in a long time ago). But what keeps my games from happening every weekend is the time it takes for me to provide the kind of challenges that keep _them_ on their toes, which increases dramatically in the mid-to-high level range.

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You're probably right. I think I was talking past the real issue.

Thanks, molonel, for the replies - I really appreciate you taking such a serious look at my idea. I didn't want to bog down my original post with too much gaming philosophy, so I can see why I wasn't clear at first.

I will let you know how it goes in a few months. I've got a slow story arc that will conclude with a confrontation with a CR 10 or 11 black dragon. I'll report back when that's over, along with any prestige feats we've built for the game.

One mechanical hurdle does remain, however, and that's how to account for some of the constant effect items that will be in the game. Does anyone know some way I could give a 6th-level equivalent feat that allows for the creation of 1st-7th level appropriate constant effect magic items?

rycanada said:

This is the stuff I don't understand - why are all the feats like Item Creation? I thought the problem with Item Creation was how it hurt wizard characters relative to the rest of the party. I can see how my spell purchase rules do that, but not for the rest of the system. My players seemed to think this would get them to do more role-playing purchases, since they knew they could always get another feat later.

Now, as a related point, do you think my xp values for feat, skill, and stat purchases are set too high?

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Actually, I thought that your XP for feat purchase system was a great idea. Although I don't intend to run your "capped at 6th" rules, I could really see why you might consider it. A 6th level fighter clearly beats a 1st level warrior, but she isn't necessarily superhuman.

And, no, I don't think your XP costs are too high.

One other issue came up from a player this weekend: He's making a sorcerer built for melee combat w. reach weapons. The group doesn't seem to think this is a disastrously bad idea, because the spread between a sorc's maximum BAB and a fighter's is only +3. They seem to think that the new system encourages longer builds that make the characters more versatile, but I'm wondering whether this is going to give me a hard time. Any thoughts?

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Seems to me that one of the side-effects of your new rules is going to be that characters are going to want to do exactly what this sorcerer is doing. I don't see that as a problem. Why would it give you a hard time?

RC

I was just mildly concerned that we'd lose role definition, but on further consideration

1. I don't mind that, so long as players are getting characters they want.

and

2. It actually doesn't look like it's happening.

It sounds like a good idea - I wouldn't use skill caps, though

I might use this with the 'Lost City of Barakus', which is designed for 1st-5th level PCs but w XP halved. Maybe allowing XP as normal but treating 5th or 6th as Max level w Epic boosts would work well...

I think I'd prob combine this w giving out free skill points at all levels.

Why would you want to remove the skill caps? My thoughts for keeping them circle around the power of available feats, and the availability of feats such as skill focus and +2/+2s for the truly dedicated. Why wouldn't these be sufficient?