Natural Attacks and Iterative Attacks

Lawmage · Aug 30, 2004

Okay, I am sure this has been done to death but I am hoping for some guidance here.

Is there any reason why a creature with natural attacks plus sufficient character levels to gain iterative attacks should not get both when making a full attack?

Specificly, consider the following. I am reworking a rather nasty bad guy thug. It is a half-fiend troll with six levels of barbarian. A normal troll gets claw/claw/bite when making a full attack. A sixth level Barb has BA +6/+1 for one extra iterative attack when making the full attack. Assuming the claw is the primary natural weapon and the bite is the secondary and a 32 Str (yeah, its high, I know...) is there any reason not to give the creature the following attack lay out: Standard attack: claw +21 (troll BA +4 plus Barb BA +6 plus Str bonus +11) melee; Full Attack: claw +21 melee (primary natural), claw +21 melee (primary natural), claw +16 melee (iterative), bite +16 melee (secondary natural)??????

It seems that without giving the troll with character levels the iterative attack, it gets hosed in comparison to the straight troll without character levels as well as against characters who are going to have at least 3 iterative attacks at that challenge rating (the troll works out to CR 14).

CRGreathouse · Aug 30, 2004

You could give the troll a weapon. Possible attacks:

greatsword (iterative), bite (at -5)

longsword (iterative), claw (at -5), bite (at -5)

Hypersmurf · Aug 30, 2004

Lawmage said:
Is there any reason why a creature with natural attacks plus sufficient character levels to gain iterative attacks should not get both when making a full attack?

Yup.

From the Monster Manual: "Creatures do not receive additional attacks from a high base attack bonus when using natural weapons."

If you give that troll a Large battleaxe, though, he'll make two iterative attacks with the battleaxe (BAB +10/+5), and he can treat his other claw and his bite as secondary natural weapons, at a -5 on the attack roll and adding half Str bonus to damage.

Just like the Troll Ranger in the Monster Manual.

-Hyp.

Hypersmurf · Aug 30, 2004

CRGreathouse said:
[sig]

Hey, CRG - how come your sig attributes a quote to "WotC boards" and links to RPG.net?

-Hyp.

Lawmage · Sep 1, 2004

Well, the troll in question eschews weapons for reasons of ego....It is a flavor thing that I want to keep so the idea of a weapon is out. Of course, I suppose I will just have to deal with the "loss" of an iterative attack. Anyway, I suppose the troll's rend ability more than makes up for the missing iterative attack. Yrrck Fleshrender is a nasty piece of work regardless...

Seravin · Sep 1, 2004

I think (but am by no means certain) that he could take Improved Unarmed Strike as a feat and get iterative attacks - possibly with a secondary claw attack at -5. No rend possible with this method

Damage is probably not the same as the claws though (I don't recall what it would be though - unarmed strike modified by a large creature plus strength - maybe 1d6+strength?) , and I think hands are light weapons so are not eligible for power attack.

Still you could trade high damage for several attacks..

Hypersmurf · Sep 1, 2004

Seravin said:
... and I think hands are light weapons so are not eligible for power attack.

Unarmed strike is a special case of a light weapon eligible for Power Attack

-Hyp.

Lord Pendragon · Sep 1, 2004

Hypersmurf said:
Unarmed strike is a special case of a light weapon eligible for Power Attack

Isn't that a contradiction? *ducks*

Darklone · Sep 1, 2004

Lord Pendragon said:
Isn't that a contradiction? *ducks*

That's called an exception

Unarmed attacks ... can't they be combined with secondary natural attacks

?

Flurrying monk troll with additional claw and bite. Well, I gonna miss the rend.

Lawmage · Sep 1, 2004

Flurrying monk troll with additional claw and bite

Now that is just plain mean spirited...As if monks and trolls were not bad news enough without combining them. Still, it would be an odd troll with the discipline to become a monk...