D&D 5E Game Theory. CR and 5E Encounter System.
- Thread starter Zardnaar
- Start date
I don't think this is true. There are quite a few RPGs that I've never heard of breaking due to optional rules or powergaming: DungeonWorld, or Ditv, or HeroWars/Quest; even older games like RuneQuest and CoC.
If this thread is meant to have some RPG theory in it, then it seems worthwhile identifying what features of D&D (and in particular 5e) produce the game breakage. I'd start with (i) the action economy, (ii) the resource economy (which is different for different builds eg rogue mostly at-will vs fighter with short rest recharge vs wizard with long rest recharge, and (iii) PC build based on selecting from many lists (including spells as a significant source of short-term PC build elements) that produce many combinations of modifiers to mechanical effectiveness and action economy.
Once you identify these things, your're not trying to get rid of them - they're pretty fundamental to the game. But you might identify and try to limit some problematic interactions. Bonus action healing is one form of action economy manipulation that's been mentioned in this thread, for instance.
Ilbranteloth
Explorer
We have pretty extensive house rules at this point, but I'll see if I can summarize where we started, which was working on making it feel more like AD&D. Or at least AD&D as we experienced it.
For me it boils down to a few goals:
1. Focus on the characters and their narrative - not the rules and their abilities.
2. Exploration is the primary pillar of the game. Exploration of the setting, the characters, and the story. Everything else (combat, social interaction) shapes that story, usually by creating road blocks.
3. A "realistic" approach to the world. This doesn't mean you can't play superhero level games, or that you have to adhere to historical precedence. But to me it's crucial when running a D&D style RPG (as opposed to a story now one, for example). Why? Because as the DM you'll be making a lot of on the fly adjudications. Can the fighter throw his sword at the thief that's fleeing? (I say absolutely, historical fighting treatises show how to throw your sword much like a javelin). Having as many things in the game work like you'd expect them to here makes it much easier to ensure you're all on the same page. So instead of restrictive rules like "you can only hide if you are at least partly concealed" from 3e, you can attempt to hide any time you can explain to me why somebody wouldn't see you. This is also possible in 5e now. For example, throwing a stone over the head of a guard so they look that direction and you can sneak across the open doorway behind them.
4. The rules should focus on mechanics that allow the DM to make adjudications, and not on specific circumstances. Yes I know that AD&D was full of all sorts of rules covering minutia that we deem unnecessary now. And it had different mechanics for seemingly everything. But when actually running the game, the primary focus was on the adventure at hand. It wasn't really until 2e that things really got out of hand. I find that the AD&D rules worked best as guidelines to help the DM make good decisions, and tended to drop the fiddly ones (like weapon vs. armor type adjustments).
(It's not that I don't like those, in our current rules AC is 10 + proficiency modifier + dexterity modifier. Armor provides damage reduction based on bludgeoning/piercing/slashing damage type. For example, mail is ok against bludgeoning and piercing, and very good against slashing.) What it really comes down to is that AD&D's mechanics were often lacking, but the underlying purpose of the rule wasn't. Leveraging 5e's more elegant ruleset just improves the experience.
Anyway, the rules shouldn't get in the way, and they generally shouldn't be defining or directing your actions. The best I recall, because I substantially rewrote things, these were where we started, with a combination of focus and a few tweaks to the rules.
Characters
To start with, I think part of the feel of AD&D has a lot to do with the way characters worked. While many of the classes had special abilities, most of the time gaining levels didn't do much beyond increase your chance to hit and give you more hit points. Classes now get abilities frequently, in part to try to balance them with wizards, and also to give you new things at each level. I think that shift has had a fundamental effect on the way the game is played. I think people often focus more on the rules and abilities than on developing the personality of the character themselves. It's much easier to write a character build guide than it is to write one about character development, for example. This in turn helped move classes and subclasses in to specific niches and roles, which was further emphasized in actual rules later on. Other aspects of character development, such as comparing damage per round, finding "trap" choices, and rating every option keeps the focus on this aspect.
I'm not saying these didn't exist in the past. But the rules put a lot of emphasis on things that aren't even discussed nowadays. For example, new abilities given by kits in 2e often traded off such things as not being able to gain followers until later, or limiting them in some way. There are a lot of things in the game (especially 2e) that traded soft abilities for hard abilities, in both directions. Game balance was addressed differently (and in 2e things did get out of hand), but it took a longer-term perspective. Wizards were pretty useless for the first several levels, and amazingly powerful at higher levels. Fighters just continually improved over time.
How can you address this without changing the rules significantly?
1. Roll stats. I recommend rolling them in order. Why? In AD&D you had to qualify for classes, and some (paladins and monks for example) were very difficult to qualify for. This doesn't have quite the same effect, but it does force you to be creative. What can I make with this? Rather than re-rolling "bad" characters, try rolling up and fully create three characters. Again, if this is what you're born with, what would you be? You'll find that you'll often gravitate to the character you least expect.
2. Don't plan out your character's future. Sure, you can have goals, but try to let them grow organically through the course of the game. Instead of goals as to what class you'll multiclass into at 4th and 7th levels, set some in-world goals that the character has. Or don't, and just see what happens.
3. Find your sweet spot. We have a couple of them - 3rd level, 5th level, and 7th-9th level. Whenever you get to one, slow advancement to a crawl. Again, this isn't a replication of AD&D's actual rule-set, but I think it helps with the feel of having roughly the same skill set for an extended period of time. Instead of the focus being what cool abilities you'll get in the next 3 or 4 sessions when you level up again, you can focus your attention on the cool things that the character will do with the abilities they have.
4. Hit points and healing. Despite what people think, it was harder to die in 1e than 5e. In 1e, you stopped at 0 hit points and fell unconscious "(optionally as low as -3 hit points if from the same blow which brought the total to 0)." In each following round (and a round is a full minute), you lost 1 hit point. You died at -10. The loss of hit points ended as soon at a friendly creature spend a round administering aid. So it took anywhere from 6 to 10 rounds to die. What was much tougher was healing. If you were reduced to 0 hp, you would be in a coma for 1d6 turns (10-60 minutes) and required a minimum of 1 week of recovery even with magical healing. The normal rate of healing was 1 point per day of rest, more if you rest for a full week.
Our initial change was to add 1 level of exhaustion when you were reduced to 0 hp. Then we went to a 15 DC on death saves, and shifted the healing to the alternate rules in the DMG, but left the recovery of long rest abilities daily.
Naturally, scrolls, healing potions and clerics were the main source of healing. But it also meant that a great many adventures were out-and-back types, with multiple trips to the same dungeon to work through in parts. It also meant that while gaining treasure and levels were always goals, the primary goal when dungeon delving was survival. So, what if you gloss over it? You go into the dungeon until you're really in bad shape, say that you returned to town, rested for a week, and now you're back where you started? Well, it still gives you a different perspective on death and combat. It makes you use different tactics, and consider things like talking and running away far more than folks do today. It also means that the dungeon might change in that week's time. So things aren't exactly as you left them.
A note about clerics: While it seems like a cleric is essential, the reality is that like all of the classes, none of them are required. This was the class that had the biggest defined role, but it also meant that they served a different purpose as well. Since a lot of their spells would be healing spells, it meant that spellcasting wasn't their primary purpose. They were the second-best fighters, and usually the second-best equipped fighters (including druids and monks) as well.
Skills
Depending on which variation you used, you might have had no skills, secondary skills, or non-weapon proficiencies, among other options. What do they all have in common? Most of the time you didn't need to use them. Huh? From the 2e PHB: "When a character uses a proficiency, either the attempt is automatically successful, or the character must roll a proficiency check. If the task is simple or the proficiency has only limited game use (such as cobbling or carpentry), a proficiency check is generally not required. If the task the character is trying to perform is difficult or subject to failure, a proficiency check is required." In OD&D and AD&D prior to non-weapon proficencies, the DM just had to figure out what you could do, and set a probability if a check was necessary. Secondary skills were broad categories and whether you knew how to do something was circumstantial with that as guidance. For example, if you were a sailor, then you'd know various knots, uses for ropes and nets, and a decent climber. Without specific skills, how did you make a check?
By describing what you wanted to do, and the DM decided whether you could. I understand a lot of people don't like DM fiat, but it greatly simplifies the game and helps maintain immersion. The cool thing is that 5e has the best system so far to not only go back to this approach, but also provides much better guidance for the DM.
Passive skill scores.
With passive scores, combined with circumstantial adjudication of advantage/disadvantage (including role-playing), it's super simple to skip rolling a lot of the dice you'd otherwise be rolling. And it takes into account the skill level of all involved. This goes a long way to getting the right feel. A side effect of this is it de-emphasizes the need for characters to fill a certain niche, yet still rewards their skills. Other PCs can jump in at any time with ideas and help, which might improve your chances.
Combat
My number one change? Separate movement from your turn. Don't worry about movement and positioning. That means that things like Sneak Attack require more judicious adjudicating. It's not a big deal, though, and it streamlines combat even more. You don't have to figure out whether somebody is 30 or 35 feet away. If they're a little farther, then you move a bit faster. The rest of the action economy is different but works well enough as is. Our goal (and we go farther because we don't use initiative) is to get away from the "game within a game" that combat has become. Combat flows just like the rest of the narrative.
Another aspect that was huge in AD&D, but more difficult to implement now, is interrupting spellcasting. In AD&D casting a spell took more time, and during that time you could interrupt and ruin the spell (including losing the spell slot). That meant that spellcasters were very careful about being out of the melee.
Spells
Not too much here, but the main one is a big one. No damage-causing cantrips. Now mechanically it's no problem at all, they aren't all that different than using a sword in terms of attack and damage. But it significantly alters the place a wizard takes, especially in combat.
The other big one that forces much more in terms in decision making is that ritual spells consume spell slots like any other spell. You want Leomund's Tiny Hut? Then that's one less fireball for you.
Wizards must find their spells. Which means you get what you get and figure out creative ways to use them.
Another major change is how many classes gain spellcasting, and how early they get it. You'll have to figure out whether you want paladins and rangers to get spells later in life, and we eliminated all of the extra abilities wizards get as they gain levels. Spellcasting is significant enough, and again we aren't worried about gaining new abilities all the time.
Magic Items
Because our characters stay at the same level for a while, we use magic items to give the characters other abilities. Especially consumable ones. Potions and wands are common. Wands have a fixed number of charges (usually 10 or less) and don't regain them.
Adventuring
Don't skip too quickly to avoid the "boring" stuff. This includes things like resources. The rule that half your ammunition is destroyed is a good one. Encumbrance, food, water, etc. are all worth addressing at appropriate times. But keep it simple. A suit of armor, a bow, polearm or heavy weapon, a sidearm (like a sword) and a dagger or two are reasonable to carry without being encumbered. Then make a rough estimate of what else they are carrying for encumbered or heavily encumbered. Spending an extended period in the underdark? You'll need to worry about food and water, even if it means you're using magic.
5e makes it much easier to not need to fill a specific niche or role. But make an effort to focus on the character and their personality, not their class. Yes, certain classes are better at other things, but that doesn't have to define the character. Focus on the personality and the interactions between the characters, and less on their specific abilities.
--
The reality is, none of this is really new or revolutionary, nor just for a group trying to emulate an earlier edition. We're not really trying to emulate AD&D itself either. Our campaign is a real blend of editions and ideas, because as each new edition comes out we are just trying to take advantage of the new rules and mechanics, while maintaining the same feel for our long-running campaign. In other words, the mechanics might be different, but the setting, characters, and game itself remains pretty much the same for us. Obviously things have changed, and for a while during the 2.5e/3e era we were just as heavy into the tactical battlemat combat as anybody. Since I sold most of my minis that's a lot harder to do, but we had shifted away from that by the time I sold them since we found it was really interfering with what we liked best.
I have far more substantial mechanical changes, and I'm happy to share those too. But they have morphed into a pretty different set of rules at this point and it's gotten harder to just pull small parts out for others to plug into their 5e games.
Jester David
Hero
Can't say I'm familiar enough with those systems to make a judgement.
But would you say you're able to meaninfully powergame/ optimise in those systems? Because if you can't significantly powergame them, no, powergaming won't break them.
Because the point was that powergaming, by its nature, breaks RPGs.
The main break in this instance is options. When you have an options, one will always be the strongest. And when you have multiple options, it becomes possible to pick all the strongest options. The more options, the more variance between the new power level and the baseline.
That's an inherent problem with multiple choices. The only way around that is cosmetic options, which would be unappealing.
Ilbranteloth
Explorer
That’s pretty similar to what we do for lingering injuries. We use a modified exhaustion track and the death save mechanic. You get one save attempt per day, 3 non consecutive successes it gets better by one level, 3 fails and it gets worse. High level magic to heal. We love the system.
These are all good changes imo, we use something similar.
In particular, I really like the idea of an escalating chance of a lingering injury for each crit suffered, or each time reduced to zero hp (and/or each failed death save). I imagine starting at 1 in 20, then adding 1 for each adverse event, and checking each time an event occurs. Once an injury is suffered, or at the end of the adventure, the tally resets to zero.
I'm interested to know how you handle the escalation however.
Sadras
Legend
I've seen some posters refer negatively to the so-called death spirals, so perhaps PCs that suffer a lingering injury gain an Inspiration (Desperation) Point as a counter balance or something along those lines.
werecorpse
Adventurer
Here are my house rules on lingering injuries. I admit to the phrasing being a bit clumsy but it's just a house rule.
In case you think I only use a stick I also have a system for what I call "Peak condition benefits" which are things that a bit like inspiration or boons that a character can build up by spending time training or getting a blessing etc and are intrinsic to the character rather than linked to an item.
Enjoy
Lingering injuries
Every time you fail a death save roll or take a critical hit you have a chance of suffering a lingering injury. If you suffer the same number as your hit dice ( or biggest hit dice if you are multiclassed ) you automatically receive one lingering injury. Then the chance to suffer another one starts to build.
Whenever you take a long rest you roll a dice equal to your hit dice. If you roll equal or less than the chance of suffering a lingering injury you have one. After the long rest the chance of suffering a lingering injury them resets to 0.
(I.e. Bill the fighter suffered 3 critical hits and failed a death roll during the days fighting. He rests overnight and roll 1d10 ( his hit dice). If he rolls a 4 or less he wakes up with a lingering injury. If he had suffered say 12 critical hits and failed 5 death rolls he would suffer 1 lingering injury and have a 7 in 10 chance of suffering a second. If he had this happen to him and he was a monk or cleric he would have 2 lingering injuries and a 1 in 8 chance of a third )
Roll on the table below to see what injury lingers. You may suffer all except 1&8 multiple times. If you can no longer suffer the injury rolled, roll again.
Lingering injuries
1.Weakened: roll damage dice twice take the worst result.
2.Frail: hit point maximum reduced by 2 per hit dice/level
3.Scarred: disadvantage on skill checks of a particular stat (roll1d6)
4.Lame: lose 10' movement
5.Injured : take a few seconds to warm up. Disadvantage to everything for the first two rounds involved in each combat (including initiative).
6.Vulnerable: double damage from a particular damage type (GM choose one that caused the injury)
7.Feeble: disadvantage on saves of a particular type (roll 1d6)
8.Afflicted: hit points recovered from any source (healing, hit dice etc) the result is halved (round down)
Recovery from lingering injuries
You can recover from a lingering injury by making a DC 15 constitution save. After spending 3 weeks recuperating you roll. A person making a DC 15 intelligence (medicine) roll or casting a heal spell can give you advantage on this save. This time is reduced to 1 week if you have access to regular magical healing. After a success an injury resolves, you can only heal one at a time. A regenerate spell will heal all lingering injuries
In case you think I only use a stick I also have a system for what I call "Peak condition benefits" which are things that a bit like inspiration or boons that a character can build up by spending time training or getting a blessing etc and are intrinsic to the character rather than linked to an item.
Enjoy
Lingering injuries
Every time you fail a death save roll or take a critical hit you have a chance of suffering a lingering injury. If you suffer the same number as your hit dice ( or biggest hit dice if you are multiclassed ) you automatically receive one lingering injury. Then the chance to suffer another one starts to build.
Whenever you take a long rest you roll a dice equal to your hit dice. If you roll equal or less than the chance of suffering a lingering injury you have one. After the long rest the chance of suffering a lingering injury them resets to 0.
(I.e. Bill the fighter suffered 3 critical hits and failed a death roll during the days fighting. He rests overnight and roll 1d10 ( his hit dice). If he rolls a 4 or less he wakes up with a lingering injury. If he had suffered say 12 critical hits and failed 5 death rolls he would suffer 1 lingering injury and have a 7 in 10 chance of suffering a second. If he had this happen to him and he was a monk or cleric he would have 2 lingering injuries and a 1 in 8 chance of a third )
Roll on the table below to see what injury lingers. You may suffer all except 1&8 multiple times. If you can no longer suffer the injury rolled, roll again.
Lingering injuries
1.Weakened: roll damage dice twice take the worst result.
2.Frail: hit point maximum reduced by 2 per hit dice/level
3.Scarred: disadvantage on skill checks of a particular stat (roll1d6)
4.Lame: lose 10' movement
5.Injured : take a few seconds to warm up. Disadvantage to everything for the first two rounds involved in each combat (including initiative).
6.Vulnerable: double damage from a particular damage type (GM choose one that caused the injury)
7.Feeble: disadvantage on saves of a particular type (roll 1d6)
8.Afflicted: hit points recovered from any source (healing, hit dice etc) the result is halved (round down)
Recovery from lingering injuries
You can recover from a lingering injury by making a DC 15 constitution save. After spending 3 weeks recuperating you roll. A person making a DC 15 intelligence (medicine) roll or casting a heal spell can give you advantage on this save. This time is reduced to 1 week if you have access to regular magical healing. After a success an injury resolves, you can only heal one at a time. A regenerate spell will heal all lingering injuries
werecorpse
Adventurer
I use this system because I run a campaign where I want the characters to sometimes need to rest longer than a day to be fully recovered after having the snot beaten out of them. After running this system for a while the party had been through a fairly gruelling adventure and all melee types had at least one lingering injury, one had 3. I think the guy who had 3 was vulnerable to piercing damage, gained only half benefit from healing and was at disadvantage on wisdom ability checks. That's the most it's ever gotten too. After spending a few weeks back in town they were ready to adventure again.
IME death spirals exist in games like savage worlds where you accumulate penalties mid combat and once you are on the slippery slope it's a quick trip to the mortuary.
I like the d&d hit points mechanic and the fact that there is no difference between 1hp and full HP during the fight, and no difference if you have been knocked down and healed back. I didn't want the slippery slope to appear until after the combat- hence my limit to not having a lingering injury until after a long rest (anyone who is over 35 and plays sport irregularly knows what I mean). I simply want the players to maybe assess their own abilities after taking a few injuries and have a mechanical reason to say "let's get some r&r instead of heading back into the dungeon".
Sadras
Legend
There are some nice ideas in there @werecorpse.
So it seems that your table's take on Cure Wounds is that general combat-related open wounds knit close and stop the bleeding etc but the deeper trauma to the body remains - hence the lingering injury. Which could also help explaining why some people in a magical world don't fully recover (Sir Isteval walks with a limp) because they don't have access to the Regenerate spell or higher level magic. Your simple healing potions and healings spells are just not enough.
So it seems that your table's take on Cure Wounds is that general combat-related open wounds knit close and stop the bleeding etc but the deeper trauma to the body remains - hence the lingering injury. Which could also help explaining why some people in a magical world don't fully recover (Sir Isteval walks with a limp) because they don't have access to the Regenerate spell or higher level magic. Your simple healing potions and healings spells are just not enough.
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