Players building v players exploring a campaign

CydKnight

Explorer
I am DMing new players now with one old school player out of 4 who hadn't played in a couple of decades. For the most part they want to explore but as they gain experience they are slowly moving toward contributing to what their world looks like. As I see them move more in that direction, I try to steer them less. It requires a lot of conscious monitoring of these players to get a feel for their comfort level and the direction they would like to go.
 

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Ratskinner

Adventurer
I'm honestly fairly flexible, because they both have strengths and weaknesses.

I love the new shared-creation model, especially for impromptu or one-shot play. Time concerns tend to lead me in this direction lately.

I don't share all of [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION]'s problems (which I note seem to address story-building rather than world-building) with them because I've seen most of those same problems (or an equivalent) in traditional play as well. I no longer consider D&D (or most traditional rpgs) a good system for stories, because the DM has to keep either breaking it or railroading to keep a good story going. Not that a good story can't come from D&D play, but it can also come from a football or chess game. For a game to be a "story game", I think it should have as the goal or artifact of play...a story. Call me crazy.

To me, I think games like Fate, or the PbtA games are fine or even wonderful for world-building or setting exploration (to some extent, that's what they are about). Fate can be impromptu (as the Tabletop episode appears to be) or you can prep it ahead of time like traditional rpgs. While they are both much more in tune with the fiction/narrative than a traditional rpg, I don't consider them story games because neither has any particular inherent mechanical tendency to close the storylines that can be opened during play.

However, I think "joint setting creation" is a new art, and I don't think it's perfected. I ran Dungeon World for about 6 sessions, IIRC. By the end, fiction/setting information that had already been established ended up getting in the way of sensible resolution and creation of new information. Sure, the DW fans say you can talk your way out of this, and you can, but at some point it begins to get silly. (Of course, that can happen with some TV shows as well.) Fate, at least gives you the option of dialing it back.

For some types of premise, though, joint creation doesn't seem to work as well. Mysteries, a la Gumshoe seem, to my mind, to require being prepared ahead of time. (I suppose you could leave room for some Mad-Libs input form players, does it matter what the Drive-Through attendent's name is?) At least, that's been my experience.
 

Aenghus

Explorer
I don't think collaboration is as doomed an enterprise as some other contributors to this thread seem to think. While I run a fairly conventional game I've increased the amount of ideas and material my players volunteer over the years. I retain editorial control because my players are happy for me to. If some of them wanted more authority to contribute as players to the gameworld I would think seriously about it.

Previously as a player, I became increasingly aware of the leaps of faith I needed to make as a player trusting that the referee's plotting and storylines would be worth the wait. Campaign secrets and "hidden backstory" meant that it was hard to know if the game was going to remain interesting as secrets were revealed, or if personal plots would ever be relevant to the game. In some cases this encouraged passivity and disconnection from the game, playing it safe, being as cagy at a metagame level as players often are in deathtrap dungeons.

Sometimes everything works. Sometimes it doesn't and the backstory the referee is invested in just doesn't engage the players. For some players and groups, allowing players to make a contribution improves the chances of the game appealing to everyone, or at least making an acceptable compromise.

It does make for a different sort of game, it's true. Since I've primarily been refereeing for the last fifteen years, I've got used to editorial authority and compartmentalisation. The rare times I get to be a player I've discovered I miss editorial insight into the gameworld a lot.

If players in a game are used to thinking like referees or just enjoy making contributions to the game, I don't see it as heresy to allow them to do so. It does require give and take on all involved parties to make it work.
 

S'mon

Legend
I definitely prioritise Exploration not Storygame group-story-creation, but I am very happy for players to add background setting elements - stuff their PCs would know about before entering play. I'm not averse to dramatist mechanics that don't harm immersion too much, like players spending 'contact points' in Twillight-2000 to have an established relationship with a newly appeared NPC. That's a well established action movie trope that is also not unrealistic. I could see a PC spending a fate/drama point to eg have an NPC fall in love with them. But I'm wary of taking
it too far.

It's generally a lot cooler when NPC falls in love as an emergent consequence of play, eg in
one AD&D game the PC Garrick saved the young lady Tabitha Kallent's carriage from highwaymen, when he spoke with her I rolled the d% Reaction check (higher better) - and got 100. :D With Tabitha madly in love with him that became a major theme of the campaign, her love & devotion ended up reforming what had been conceived of as a pretty nasty PC, an outlaw who had accidentally killed his wife in a drunken rage.
 
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Sadras

Legend
In the old days the DM built the campaign and the players explored it. This is pretty much how I prefer to play whether as player or DM.

I, too, prefer the traditional model.

I generally run a traditional campaign.

I believe Mr George Banks said it best back in '64 when he said

A D&D campaign is run with precision
A roleplaying group requires nothing less
Tradition, discipline and rules
Must be the tools
Without them: disorder, catastrophe, anarchy
In short, you have a ghastly mess!
 

Celebrim

Legend
[MENTION=6688937]Ratskinner[/MENTION]: I think that's largely fair.

For me, the one way D&D gets in the way of story is that in addition to narrative it is also trying to serve the aesthetic of challenge. And sense it is trying to serve the aesthetic of challenge, then it provides for the possibility of failure - without which there would be no challenge. But the problem with providing the possibility of failure is that the timing of failure in a game serving the aesthetic doesn't always - and usually doesn't - well serve the timing required of narrative. One problem that you run into trying to recreate narrative in a game is that in narratives the protagonists can't fail unless it serves the story for them to do so. But in the game, characters just die off at random leaving plot threads dangling unfinished.

It's not easy to remove that. A game without challenge becomes like watching reruns of a sports competition. The linearity of the game - the fact that you don't know what is going to happen - is I think the largest part of what makes a game exciting. If you don't have that aspect, and instead want to serve an aesthetic of perfect narrative timing, exquisitely aimed Chekov's guns, narrative circularity, foreshadowing, and all those other literary techniques that make for a good story, it's not clear why you are playing a game at all instead of just writing narrative. Because one of the most certain facts regarding such well told narrative is that the author knows what is going to happen and writes in such a way that they make that vision true. If you look at authors with great narrative structure - Victor Hugo, JK Rawlings, Vernor Vinge, Lois Bujold - they often begin with the ending they've envisioned and plot their story backward from that point. But why should this process be an exciting experience for a collaborative group? It may be satisfying to write a good story, but it's not the same sort of experience and pleasure that comes from playing a good game.

My own now six year long campaign has been I think a pretty good story thus far, with many exciting moments and occasional narrative payoffs. But it hasn't been a great story because it has also inherently been a game. Judging it as a story, one of the things that would stand out is that it has had far too many characters - 16 protagonists, 10 of which are now dead, and only 1 of which has survived from the beginning of the story. And this has occurred despite the fact that I haven't been trying to run a particularly deadly campaign, and my house rules have tons of 'get out of jail free' cards built in to buffer against bad luck.

One problem here is that we have ordinary people trying to be storybook heroes without the protection of plot, and without the perfect choices and cunning that heroes are supposed to have. Of the 10 deaths, 9 of them in my opinion were preventable in the sense that the player earned his death through a series of poor choices (separating from the party, taking roles in scenes that didn't match their skill set, acting boldly but failing to account for the fact that they are already severely wounded, ignoring the "look at all the bones" warning signs, and usually all of this at once). Learning to play well and make good tactical choices is a skill, and some players never master it. Others are natural born commandos and killers that overmatch the tactical abilities of their GM. But the whole point of simulating a story is that the players all want to be those heroic figures even if they aren't, and it's not clear to me how you can deliver on this while still giving them free will in the story.
 

Celebrim

Legend
I think [MENTION=93444]shidaku[/MENTION] makes a good point about 'session zero'. One way that I have always allowed players to contribute to world building is through the creation of their character's backstory. Backstories are world building, as they almost always involve the creation of NPC's, historical events (from minor to world shaking), and organizations.

From my players backstories in my current campaign I've seen all the following added to my world:

a) The specifics of a major deity and her cult.
b) A heretical sect of a another major deity.
c) Several major NPCs, and numerous minor NPCs.
d) A half dozen greater spirits either out of whole cloth or previously known only by a name.
e) Two noble houses and their recent history.
f) A previously unknown civil war added to the regions timeline, along with a variety of other minor historical events.

Much of that I feel quite indebted to the player regarding his contributions to my setting and the creativity that they've assisted me with. There is a lot of good stuff that has come out of a player's backstory and desires for this character.

The difference between that and collaborative story telling is that since it is all in the past, it doesn't interfere with the linear unfolding of future events. Sure, we've just partially handed the player the reigns regarding the setting, but we aren't hashing out the future and therefore violating the players aesthetic of exploration and discovery. Nor are we harming the moment by moment challenges by giving protagonists the protection of plot. I'm perfectly happy to consider a player's injection or invention of new setting material when it meets that criteria. Even after "session 0", I'd still be perfectly happy to allow player's to help paint in the blank spaces of the canvas when the opportunity arises. I'm not offended (usually) by their aesthetic choices. I don't have to "have my own way".

But if a player (or even the GM) "has their own way" regarding the future layout of the story, why are we bothering to pretend this is a game?
 

Wednesday Boy

The Nerd WhoFell to Earth
One of my GMs writes his setting, the history for the setting, and his plot outline, then gives extra credit opportunities where players can create characters, events, places, and items for the campaign in exchange for one time use boons in the game. Players get to give as much detail as they want and can go in whatever direction they want. The GM then takes those items and integrates them in his game as he sees fit. Submitting the extra credit doesn't mean it'll show up in the game and if it does show up in the game it'll be interpreted and used however the GM sees fit.

It's nice because these extra credit submissions can indicate to the GM plot or story elements that the players are interested in. And they can serve as inspiration for the GM. An event one player came up with inspired one of the major plot points of his last campaign. We also get to come up with wide ranging backstories and if they veer too far from his image of the setting, he reins us in. It's the perfect balance of freedom to provide input with the GM's ability to put boundaries where he needs them.

In a different group we frequently play Fate and the players collaborate with the GM on campaign elements before the game starts. I find it works very well by getting players and the GM on the same page for what the campaign is going to be about and what interests both the players and GM. And same with the GM I mentioned above, the GMs get to make the final ruling on elements created by the players. Sometimes the elements are negotiated by the GM ("I don't like this trait that you gave this NPC. Can we change it to that instead?") or sometimes the elements are vetoed by the GM ("I want to keep this area of the map mysterious, so let's not put any elements there. Could your element work in this area instead?").

As a player both approaches help increase my buy-in to the campaign and neither stifle the mystery or plot that the GM wants us to pursue.
 

Collective world building through narrative results in a story that, if it goes for a while and is actually mentally examined which it probably won't be, at best results in something like 'Lost' or 'X-Files'. It will be disjointed, rambling, and often incoherent and contradictory. Chekov's Guns will be introduced and rust unfired and forgotten. Plot lines will be introduced with bangs and then never touched again. Things that ought to have huge meaning and implication for the setting and the characters will appear by 'rule of cool', or as deus ex machina, or techno-babble resolution, or as McGuffins - and then disappear, their implications and meaning never explored.

Please don't talk about "at best" for a style you dislike. Everything you are talking about does happen at average. And all the things appear at average in DM driven campaigns - indeed I find the insistence that Chekov's Guns must be fired to be somewhat harmful to a believable world unless you're moving at breakneck speed; it implies that the entire world is a facade put up for the PCs.

As for things being solved by rule of cool or Deus Ex Machina, in my experience that's most common in 90s adventure paths where the NPCs do everything and the PCs are there to bear witness. And it's a problem more common with specific DM authority than one with collective world building.

That said you are right on the nail when you say that some of the best games are ones with built in short story arcs rather than attempting to be an epic series. Fiasco, for example, is a recipe to create a Cohen Brothers movie in approximately the time it would take to watch one. Dread a horror film in the time it would take to watch one.

Which is where we get to almost a clash of media. Most good shared authority settings are effectively miniseries while it normally takes longer to play through a single author campaign than it does to watch the whole of Game of Thrones.

The cost is simple. You go from the experience of being within a fantasy story - maybe a bad fantasy story but hopefully a good one - to the experience of being one of a team of screenwriters hammering out the draft of a screenplay around a table. It's not possible to be in the story you are creating. GM's are never immersed in the story the way a player is or can be. If you make everyone wear that hat, then every one is interacting with the story primarily at the meta level.

This depends which system you are using and how it's happening. There's a reason I claim that modern RPGs started with My Life With Master. It was the first game I'm aware of to have an inbuilt character arc and three act structure as part of the rules (the only other game that does it this clearly is the GM-less Fiasco, but most of the Powered by the Apocalypse families have character arcs built in).

A big part of this, however, is that most settings without shared authority are (at least to me) extremely unsatisfying for telling short stories because they skimp so badly on the first act and establishing normality. If we look at The Matrix (to name a film I expect we've all seen) then Mr. Anderson's player knows in his bones what the office drudgery is like in a far more clear way than the GM can or will and thus the player should be carrying more of the load simply because although the character is not in control they probably know what will be said to them. If on the other hand neither the player nor the character knows what is going to happen those baseline scenes suddenly become interesting for the player. Likewise The Force Awakens (for a more recent example), Rey's life scrabbling on Jakku is something she has a bone-deep understanding of and can tell a typical day of herself.

Perversely, although the characters become more powerful Neo loses this understanding of his world when he takes the Red Pill - and Rey does when she takes off in the Falcon.

On the other hand you absolutely can play Sam & Dean's Endless Roadtrip Hunting Monsters without letting the players world build. This is because there is little relevant to their core activities that they both know at the start of the series and isn't covered by the rules. Xena: Warrior Princess works really well without any sort of shared authority.

Or in short Jessica Jones needs to understand her environment, and to do that it needs to work the way she thinks until it doesn't. Murdock and Nelson need to be able to deal with their jobs without asking the GM. When you try to do a miniseries and don't tie the character to the world you end up with Iron Fist.

Or in short, it's no fun to read a 'choose your own adventure' book when you are not only making the choices, but you are writing out what happens as a result. It's for those as yet unseen pages that you are reading and rereading the book. As soon as you know the book well enough that you know what each choice results in, you put it down.

When I listen to Act 2 of Hamilton or go to see a good performance of MacBeth I know exactly what is going to happen. This doesn't stop it moving me to tears. Mere discovery isn't the only reason to watch things or play RPGs and by crippling the understanding a character can have of their world you are simultaneously weakening the range of emotional engagement possible.

The story teller takes vicarious pleasure in their discovery and invents as needed, but he cannot discover anything for himself.

It sounds as if your group of players is simply boring. When my players were confronted by troglodytes having kidnapped a child to be eaten I thought they were just going to raid the camp and I was completely prepared for all the obvious ways I could do that. Instead they decided to dress all of them except the ranger up as emissaries of Blibbloppool, God of Troglodytes, and distract the Trogs while the ranger sneaked in the back.

The wheels may have fallen off that plan because none of them spoke Trog - but if you think I discovered nothing about the setting from that plan then I'm amazed.

The reader explores the story, but cannot create anything beyond his own unique narrative path through the story. Though that path, the reader has (hopefully) a grand adventure and experiences what would otherwise be impossible - living the life of an adventurer through that adventurer's eyes.

And here we come to one of your fundamental assumptions. The only type of person I can think of who doesn't need a grounding in their setting is a professional adventurer. And yes, some fictional characters are adventurers (Sam & Dean, Xena & Gabrielle, etc.) but this is far from the only position.

If you try to violate that, no one at the table has that last experience.

Indeed. They have another experience because not everyone wants to be a rootless adventurer. Being a rootless adventurer is far from the only way to play and is far from the most emotionally engaging way to play.

Apocalypse World has a couple of playbooks (notably the Gunlugger, the Brainer, and especially the Battlebabe) that are rootless adventurers. And more than a few that aren't for people who want to be embedded into the setting - and playbooks like the Maestro d', the Hardholder, and the Hocus get a lot of narrative authority over the setting. Not everyone always chooses rootless adventurers when given the choice and if you rule Bartertown then how Bartertown works is in part a reflection of you.

I often suggest that what makes a game fun is the illusion of success. That what any sort of game offers is the experience of being successful at something without nearly as much risk and hard work as real success has.

Once more you are working on the specific rootless adventurer power fantasy. When I'm playing Montsegur 1244 I know I am going to fail. When I play Dread I know my odds of surviving the session (in character anyway) are genuinely low. This doesn't prevent these being engaging games.

Indeed one of the biggest issues regarding D&D in specific is that it contains not just the illusion of success but an almost complete lack of consequences. Characters don't get scarred. Characters are healed trivially easily and are as able on 1hp as they are on full hit points. Even death lacks its sting, and other than death the only consequences that can't be taken away with two nights of sleep and a few cure wounds spells and a lesser restoration are basically level drain and rust monster encounters.

When you say that what makes the game fun is the illusion of success a big part of this is because you are both good at what you do and another big part of it is because you fight tooth and nail against the mechanisms that make other forms of fun easier and more desirable. Mechanisms like grounding your characters in the setting and having competing factions that aren't fully under the GM's control so there are outcomes to fights that don't boil down to "Win or die".

It's generally a lot cooler when NPC falls in love as an emergent consequence of play

Agreed. But there are ways of making emergent consequences easier.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Please don't talk about "at best" for a style you dislike.

*sigh*

I don't dislike the style at all. I just don't think it actually accomplishes what it was initially (and still frequently) billed as accomplishing. I consider the situation similar to my relationship with say Object Oriented Programming or Agile development. Neither of those things are bad, and in fact they are actually very good. But they don't necessarily accomplish want their guru's stated that they would accomplish prior to the industry getting lots of actual experience with them, and many of the initial claims regarding them look ridiculous or plain wrong headed in the light of actual observation rather than theory crafting. But that being said, many of the Indy game inspired mechanical innovations are Good Things, greatly to be lauded and seriously to be considered or leveraged when designing a system. Just don't expect them to solve every problem any more than 'Realism' was the solution for every problem when it was fetishized in the mid to late 80's.

Everything you are talking about does happen at average. And all the things appear at average in DM driven campaigns - indeed I find the insistence that Chekov's Guns must be fired to be somewhat harmful to a believable world...

With respect, please consider that "believable" is an aesthetic concern entirely and completely different from the aesthetic of narrative. A great many well constructed narratives are not "believable" in the sense you seem to be using it here, and often we find that we must choose between a story that is believable and one which has a tight narrative structure. For example, I am an huge massive fan of Victor Hugo, but why should it be believable about Jean Val Jean scaling a random wall in Paris, only to land practically in the lap of a random stranger whose life he saved in an entirely different city years before, and for that random stranger to now offer the perfect sanctuary that Jean Val Jean needs for the young child Cosette. To find that 'believable' you must agree that the real world is one of providential mercy as the fictional story suggests. "Believability" isn't the point of that narrative structure, and what is "believable" is a subjective aesthetic. The point is to fire off a plot point setup unnoticed and unsuspected in the scene where Jean Val Jean rescues the man from the cart leading to the experience of wonder and joy in the reader.

...unless you're moving at breakneck speed; it implies that the entire world is a facade put up for the PCs.

Of course the entire world is a façade put up for the PCs. Only by artifice do we disguise our artifice.

I'm not sure we share enough language to meaningfully communicate with each other on this. Your response to me seems to continually go off on tangents and into areas that I wonder what you are thinking. I can only assume this is because you had the same response to my earlier writing. Let's assume for the moment neither of us understands the other at all, right back to your assumption I don't like the style. Then maybe we can reset and try again.

It sounds as if your group of players is simply boring...

Again, it's clear you have no idea what I'm talking about. Of course players can 'surprise' you by being creative and attempting things you didn't anticipate. But rather than accepting that you don't know what I'm trying to say (whether because I said it badly or you aren't trying), your again defaulting to denigrating and insulting.

Fundamentally, you are completely off base here. For example, in my setting 'adventurer' is not even a recognized profession, and if you used the word, most NPCs in the setting would assume you were referring to a wealthy tourist because in my setting 'adventurer' means 'tourist'. PC's are generally never referred to as 'adventurers' (unless they happen to be wealthy trill seekers), do not act like 'adventurers' (and would be arrested if they tried), and are never 'rootless' in the sense you mean it.
 
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