D&D 5E World-Building DMs

Jacob Marley

Adventurer
Re: Dark Sun

There are typically 3-4 other players besides Gnome player and myself whose opinions need to be considered as well. Is Dark Sun just background color or are they interested in exploring all the tropes of the setting? Or something in between? Personally, I don't think it is so easy to state that I would unequivocally toss out the player or the campaign; however, I also wouldn't immediately give in to said player's demands. What I would do is consult with the rest of my players to understand what they are looking for in the campaign. Then I can make a decision on how to handle the Gnome player.
 

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Chaosmancer

Legend
All starting sorcerers regardless of heritage in my game are told that if it comes out that they are sorcerers, they are liable to be burnt at the stake. Some areas give a wink and a nod to such laws and customs depending on whether they know you and how cosmopolitan they are, but in general all sorcerers are assumed to be non-human monsters. Wizards are a different story. Wizardry is 'good' magic, and as long as you follow custom, don't practice witchcraft (mind controlling spells, necromancy, diablerie), and don't abuse your powers - you'll be treated as a 'good wizard' in most areas. There are some areas that don't trust even wizards, particularly in the savage north and remote areas of the western interior.

I'll snip a lot of your other stuff for the sake of space.

With everything you've said, I can say with certainty that you have decent in-game story reasons for your decisions. Your world is built with a lot of thought and I would respect it and its boundaries... to an extent. The writer in me can't help but nit-pick, whether in game or out of game :p


But I don't think you really do get my reasoning on tieflings. The reason I hate tieflings is their presence basically means that there are no demons in the world, and so along with that no real possibility of that which is alien, and that everything will be treated as basically variant humans in the campaign world. Planescape is a good example; even reified ideas are treated as variant humans. The presence of a tieflings in the world basically means the whole idea of mythology has collapsed in the world and its just become shallow pastiches where you name drop things ('they've got demonic heritage, which means horns and stuff!') that have long had mythic power out of your inability to create anything for yourself. At best, you end up with tieflings as some sort of stand in for a human racial group or simply racism itself, which is itself not that well thought out (people might actually have a darn good reason to discriminate against things with demonic heritage assuming that word demonic has any meaning at all in the setting). At worst, you've got some sort of childish impulse to have a pretense of being grim and gritty because you think it's so darn mature - like saying 'poo poo' and giggling.

I'll save tiefling discussion for below.


I can't really help that. I've been DMing for 30 years and certain concepts just raise big warning flags for me especially in a player I don't know well. Guy I've never met once to play an evil character or even just a gothic 'black is the new white' character, it sets off big warning bells about player motivation and party cohesion.

I get that, judging the maturity of someone you just met is hard and immature players can ruin a game.

Counter-point though: An immature player can ruin a game whether they are playing a Drow Assassin a Elf Paladin or a Human Fighter. Forcing someone to change their concept due to trust issues isn't a going to stop that, and might be off-putting to people hoping to be more serious about their ideas.


I guess that depends on the era you started in. If someone had said they wanted to be a Tiefling Warlock in 1988, once we understood what he was saying, we probably would have showed him the door as a bad apple for even assuming such things would be allowed and then laughed at him when he was gone for such a strange and munchkin request. If someone comes up to me now and says they want to be a Tiefling Warlock, I'll inwardly groan and think, "Oh no. A 4e player. How am I going to cater to someone that actually likes that?"

To be frank, thinking you know anything about what will be played just because you know a group is playing "D&D" suggests to me small and limited experience with D&D. The more groups you play with and the longer you play, the less such an assumption seems reasonable. In some groups, playing anthromorphic Hippos makes perfect sense. I've run campaigns were human wasn't a playable race but kobold was. And the world of variety out there in what people play is enormous. The majority of campaigns are set in very unique homebrew worlds, and many of the published worlds are no less strange. In some campaign you can play a half-giant or an anthromorphic preying mantis, and in others a Tinker Gnome. You shouldn't ever assume that because you played something at one table it's available in another. Playing with a stock setting and default lore is the unusual case.

I do have a very small and limited experience. I think other than the games I have run I have only officially played in a 4e Darksun and the homebrew of a friend currently. However, the era and ideas you guys came into the game with are not the same as the era and ideas now. Obvious statement is obvious, but seriously, Tieflings, Goliaths and Dragonborn are just as much DnD to me and my friends as Humans, Elves and Dwarves. So, for a player of my generation, the idea that something so basic is going to be banned because the DM doesn't like it, is weird. They can, and I can respect it if they've got good story reasons for it, but for me DnD has a baseline that includes those things and just being told "no" with no other reason gets me looking for a reason, and I'd like to think that conversations like this might get people who have these auto-bans to think about them and either craft good story reasons to make their worlds a little more interesting, or find ways to work these extra races in to their world and accomplish the same thing. Just getting people thinking and talking about it really.

The default fluff means nothing to me. I don't use WOTC's D&D settings, revised versions of pre-3e settings, or the PC the races created by them. Going back to pre-3e, I ignore all Planescape and Spelljammer material and references.
As someone that homebrews, D&D, to me, is a toolkit. What races I include, their role in the setting is up to me when create the setting not whatever default assumptions the designers assigned. The role of Tiefling in my campaign is Cambion- the powerful and unspeakable evil that results from the mating of a human and devil. It is a role reserved for someone like Iuz in Greyhawk, the Anti-Christ in Christianity. That WOTC gave them a different fluff and role is irrelevant in my campaigns

Okay, Tieflings. I have a homebrew world posted to the site, don't want to get too much into it, I'll link it in case people are interested.

I tried to find better ways to get all the races to fit, and with Tieflings I ran into the problem of the original lore in my personal opinion. Supposedly a vast number of nobles worshipped demons and made enough contracts and children that all their descendants are now part demon, and all for wealth or power. A massive influx of that much corruption seemed... weird. I just couldn't understand how someone wouldn't have been able to stop it.

So for my Homebrew I had already established that humans arrived in the world via a massive portal that dumped their surviving population. Their world (though not officially known it is obvious to the genre saavy) was attacked and destroyed by Great Abberrations of the Far Realms. To help combat this a group of nobles and perhaps even an entire kingdom made a pact with "some being of evil" (probably Asmodeus though I do not state this) giving him something he wanted in return for the power to help fight the Abberations and save humanity.

This was my concept because I'm fascinated by the idea of sacrificing yourself to darkness to save others. Of acknowledging the beast and evil within yourself, but turning it upon the wicked instead of the just.

It isn't a perfect solution by any means, but I think it gave something to my world and even the Tieflings aren't entirely sure they made a good deal, some think the price (whatever it was as I haven't fully decided yet) may have been too high, others take pride in what their ancestors did to save humanity and instead of worshipping the Gods venerate the "Lost Legion" a contingent that stayed behind to make sure the Far Realms did not follow humanity through the portal.

Sorry, rambled on a bit much. I do love my Homebrew world baby. Of course, I've only worked on it for about two years off and on, and only one group has played in it yet, so a lot of my lore is untested and unexperienced currently.

Edit: Tired and forgot promised link. Here it is http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?470819-Chaosmancer-Homebrew-The-World-of-Arista
 
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Hussar

Legend
Chaosmancer said:
Counter-point though: An immature player can ruin a game whether they are playing a Drow Assassin a Elf Paladin or a Human Fighter. Forcing someone to change their concept due to trust issues isn't a going to stop that, and might be off-putting to people hoping to be more serious about their ideas.


Read more: http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?473017-World-Building-DMs/page21#ixzz3t87Q8Z9p

I think, for me, this is the biggest point. I've found that it works much better for me to put the responsibilities for the table having fun back onto the players, rather than just on me, the DM. If you want to bring in your oddball character, and it's not going to force me to rewrite my campaign (for example, a gnome cleric in Darksun is a much bigger issue than a gnome fighter. The appearance of a divine casting individual in DS would be a HUGE change), I've become much, much more willing to let the character in and simply rewrite a bit of campaign lore. For DS, that gnome figure would be rewriting the line that so and so killed all the gnomes to so and so killed almost all the gnomes. For me, not a huge deal.

Like I said, looking at [MENTION=10360]Greg[/MENTION]K's responses, I would be very, very reticent about sitting at his table. I simply don't trust that anyone whose preferences are that strong is going to set those preferences aside once play begins. And I have no interest in second guessing the DM to try to figure out what I can and cannot do in the campaign every single session.
 

Jacob Marley

Adventurer
I think, for me, this is the biggest point. I've found that it works much better for me to put the responsibilities for the table having fun back onto the players, rather than just on me, the DM. If you want to bring in your oddball character, and it's not going to force me to rewrite my campaign (for example, a gnome cleric in Darksun is a much bigger issue than a gnome fighter. The appearance of a divine casting individual in DS would be a HUGE change), I've become much, much more willing to let the character in and simply rewrite a bit of campaign lore. For DS, that gnome figure would be rewriting the line that so and so killed all the gnomes to so and so killed almost all the gnomes. For me, not a huge deal.

And what if you have three other players who are interested in exploring Dark Sun's tropes, including its lack of gnomes? Are their opinions shunted to the side to satisfy the Gnome player? Are they free to say "No, we will not adventure with you; we want to explore these tropes" to the Gnome player?
 

This is something I don't get. It just doesn't compute, perhaps because I never got a chance to actually play DnD until 4e (DM ran Darksun) so most of those races seem standard DnD to me.

Assumptions absolutely are based on one's edition of introduction. So yes, starting with 4e is a huge influence on how one will see commonality and availability of races, level and prevalence of magic, etc.

The two breakpoints I'm familiar with are 2e or early 3e to later 3e, and 3e to 4e. People who played late 3e with a lot of the supplements might not have experienced the breakpoint from 3e to 4e.

There may be an earlier breakpoint from OD&D to AD&D, but I wasn't gaming back there so I can't speak to it.

So, just for the sake of discussion, for folks who would not allow certain races in their campaign....let's just say that you had to allow it. You're running Dark Sun, and there are no gnomes in Dark Sun because they were literally wiped out centuries before by one of the Dragon-Kings. It's a built in fact of the setting.

A player comes to you and says I want to play a gnome. How do you handle it if you can't simply say no? What would you do?

I really like 5e gnomes. Especially the forest gnomes.

That said, I would hate to allow a gnome in Dark Sun, because I like the world with the standard toppings and I don't want to add anchovies on it.

That said, if we are doing a thought experiment, I'd bring the gnome in from another plane (or crash on a Spelljamming ship). The reason I can do that is because all of my D&D campaigns are theoretically set in the multiverse that includes all of the other official settings that were around at my point of timeline alignment. (That means no 4e points of light setting, and I'd have to have a copy of the 3e Eberron book to approve it.)

See, but, here's the rub - why does that have to be 100% on the players? Why is it the players have to learn to accept "no"? Isn't there some point where the DM should put aside his ego and let the player have what the player wants? It's all very well and good to talk about "respect for the DM", but, that's a two way street. Again, presuming everyone is acting in good faith, the player isn't trying to "pull a fast one" when he asks to play a gnome in the game. The player has a concept that the player feels fits with the campaign.

This is a huge point that I don't think has been brought up yet. There is a big difference in practice between a player that doesn't care about where or how his character fits your campaign, and just wants you to make sure he can play it, and a player who has an understanding of your campaign and thinks that once you understand his character you will see that it is a good fit.

I have no problem with the second type of player. As strict as I am, I find myself to be rather a pushover to a well-reasoned request. Take my questing knights theme adventure where the options were explicitly given (each player must pick a different one): Fighter (Champion or Battle Master), Paladin (Oath of Devotion), Cleric (War Domain), Bard (College of Valor). One of my players (who had several options if I didn't approve his first one), pitched the idea of a Ranger (Hunter) with Magic Initiate (Druid), as a knight warden in his land who was secretly a follower of the out of favor druidic traditions. And, in fact, he asked me if there was a druidic tradition. It fit in my world perfectly, and while I would have liked to have seen the Lore Bard (I had a reason for those specific classes), it was too reasonable and fun for me not to approve it. When I received questions about why some other subclasses weren't allowed, I explained exactly why the limitations were in place (Divine Domains were tightly integrated with specific churches, Oath of Vengeance paladins are a specific order). Everyone seemed perfectly okay with the limitations once understood. It seems to me that the only conflict that reasonably would exist here would simply be coming to understand one another. With this type of player, once understanding is reached, it seems that agreement should follow.

The only place the first type of player has at my table is if I ran an adventure that explicitly was "wide-open 5e". In Lost Mines of Phandelver (and a follow-up brief adventure at high level), I told the players that we were more or less going by the book (a few minor house rules), and if they wanted to play any of the stuff I wasn't going to allow normally to do it now. We ended up with a Dragonborn, a Tiefling, and a Drow, and 3 humans. It was a fun campaign, but not how I normally run it. In my normal games they play in a multiverse where none of the 4e materials happened or will happen (everything beyond 1371 DR (for the Realms) is the undetermined future).

A world-building informed strictness isn't about gaming openness on the part of the DM as a person. If my players begged me to run a D&D adventure (I'd go 10-12 sessions, but I'd draw the line at a long campaign) based on the 4e default setting (or even with the 4e rules) because they really wanted to do something that required it, I'd be likely to do it (once), and I'd make it fun for everyone if I could. But I'd consider it doing something different, just like if I were playing Savage Worlds or Fate or some other non-D&D game.

When I'm running my normal D&D adventures or campaigns, ie, when I'm DMing in the world that I've built, it matters that it is presented in the way I envisioned it as an artist. (And yes, I do see world-building as an artform.)

It's not that I can't have fun with "these newfangled races," it's that I love the world I've built, and what is not in the world is as defining as what is.
 

Hussar

Legend
And what if you have three other players who are interested in exploring Dark Sun's tropes, including its lack of gnomes? Are their opinions shunted to the side to satisfy the Gnome player? Are they free to say "No, we will not adventure with you; we want to explore these tropes" to the Gnome player?

Is "lack of gnomes" actually a trope? Really?

Funny thing is, take it from the other perspective. Player pitches a character to the DM and the DM okays it. The other three players HATE the idea. What do you do? Do the other three players get to tell you what character you cannot take? Does it matter if the DM has okay'd the idea or not? Or, flip it around, the player pitches the idea, the other players are groovy with the idea. Does that affect the DM's ability to say no? Should the DM canvass the other players before making a decision?

This is by no means a simple issue. There's a lot of different ways this can fall out. Personally I generally don't take other player's views into account, nor, would I expect others to listen to me. Isn't that the point of collaboration? Someone pitches the idea and everyone works together to figure out how to make that idea work?

I mean, I loathe elves. I do. Always have. I have all sorts of reasons for this that aren't terribly important. Does that mean I can tell you, a fellow player, in a Forgotten Realms campaign that if you play an Elf, I'm going to leave the party? How reasonable is that?

AFAIC, the game works far, far better when people can leave their egos at the door.

It's not like Gnomes in Athas has never been considered by anyone. A quick Google search finds this article: http://www.rpgmusings.com/2010/10/opportunity-actions-races-of-athas-gnomes-and-shardminds/ which turns gnomes into Derro. So, it's not like it's a completely bizarre notion.
 
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Phantarch

First Post
Hah nice. So would you use the gnome mechanics? Would you allow it to come up in any way over the course of the campaign? Or would you simply go with the delusional halfling take and never examine it any further?

For Felicia? Whatever she wants...mmmmm....

Seriously, though, I'd probably not be too concerned about mechanics, as in I'd allow the gnome mechanics, since many of them could be written off as psionic wild talents or such. As for exploring the gnome thing further? It would just depend on how the campaign shaped up. 99% of the time, everything would play out as a halfling in the way that people reacted to her and such. If it was compelling enough, I could see uncovering some bit of ancient gnomish history or artifact. If I were to truly run with it, I'd leave it unknown whether it was delusion or not for the majority of the campaign, and probably ultimately end with showing it to actually be a delusion and that the poor character was a pawn for uncovering some ancient gnomish item of power (MUAHAHAHA!!!).

Generally speaking, though I advocate strongly for DM control, I actually tend to be a fairly open and flexible DM, and try to incorporate player ideas into my campaigns. It's just that I mainly push for a cooperative relationship instead of an adversarial one. If things become adversarial, I will side with a DM over a player.
 

Greg K

Legend
I think, for me, this is the biggest point. I've found that it works much better for me to put the responsibilities for the table having fun back onto the players, rather than just on me, the DM. If you want to bring in your oddball character, and it's not going to force me to rewrite my campaign (for example, a gnome cleric in Darksun is a much bigger issue than a gnome fighter. The appearance of a divine casting individual in DS would be a HUGE change), I've become much, much more willing to let the character in and simply rewrite a bit of campaign lore. For DS, that gnome figure would be rewriting the line that so and so killed all the gnomes to so and so killed almost all the gnomes. For me, not a huge deal.

Like I said, looking at [MENTION=10360]Greg[/MENTION]K's responses, I would be very, very reticent about sitting at his table. I simply don't trust that anyone whose preferences are that strong is going to set those preferences aside once play begins. And I have no interest in second guessing the DM to try to figure out what I can and cannot do in the campaign every single session.

That's OK Hussar. I have known for years that I would never want you as a player. This quote says enough
"Personally I generally don't take other player's views into account". You have also stated numerous times over the years that you shouldn't have to buy into the setting- the DM should find a way to allow your character whether as a traveller from other dimensions or whatever. You have also stated at times that you don't trust DMs. Both are not a player that I want.
 
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hawkeyefan

Legend
Re: Dark Sun

There are typically 3-4 other players besides Gnome player and myself whose opinions need to be considered as well. Is Dark Sun just background color or are they interested in exploring all the tropes of the setting? Or something in between? Personally, I don't think it is so easy to state that I would unequivocally toss out the player or the campaign; however, I also wouldn't immediately give in to said player's demands. What I would do is consult with the rest of my players to understand what they are looking for in the campaign. Then I can make a decision on how to handle the Gnome player.

I absolutely agree that this is the best way to handle it. Talk to everyone involved and try and resolve any issues anyone has about it.

And what if you have three other players who are interested in exploring Dark Sun's tropes, including its lack of gnomes? Are their opinions shunted to the side to satisfy the Gnome player? Are they free to say "No, we will not adventure with you; we want to explore these tropes" to the Gnome player?

I would expect that this situation would be easily resolved through discussion as described above. I would stress to the other players that the presence of one gnome will not undermine any aspects of the setting in any significant way, and may actually open up some interesting options.

Honestly, the lack of gnomes doesn't seem like something so intrinsically Dark Sun that changing it really does that much to the setting.

.
I really like 5e gnomes. Especially the forest gnomes.

That said, I would hate to allow a gnome in Dark Sun, because I like the world with the standard toppings and I don't want to add anchovies on it.

That said, if we are doing a thought experiment, I'd bring the gnome in from another plane (or crash on a Spelljamming ship). The reason I can do that is because all of my D&D campaigns are theoretically set in the multiverse that includes all of the other official settings that were around at my point of timeline alignment. (That means no 4e points of light setting, and I'd have to have a copy of the 3e Eberron book to approve it.)

Gotcha. As I said above, gnomelessness doesn't seem like that big a part of Dark Sun to me. Not specifically gnomes anyway....I know that many standard DnD races are not present. But most of those are monster races like goblins and orcs.

But I agree with the spelljammer/planar travel aspect being the simplest and most seamless way to incorporate the character. It would have the least implications for the established history of Athas.
 

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