D&D 5E WotC's Nathan Stewart Teases New D&D Setting Book in 2019

Mercurius said:

I've said before that I think the best way to handle Greyhawk is to go all in on a single, deluxe product. OK, two products: do a PDF like the Eberron one that can essentially be put together by a single person for relatively little cost, but then do a commemorative deluxe box set that includes elements of the glassic Greyhawk box set, the city box set, and Castle Greyhawk...I'm talking a huge $150-200 product. A deluxe product for serious collectors. And then just leave it.

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Yeah, that would be good.

Mercurius said:

I think the reason Dragonlance was so popular was, first and foremost, the Dragonlance Chronicles novels. In terms of writing they were awful, but in terms of story they were quite good, and even the characters were fun and alive - especially to the target demographic, the tween and teen D&D fanbase. How many early teen boys (such as myself) identified with Tanis, fell in love with Laurana and had early lustful thoughts about Kitiara? To my newly emerging emotional self, the deaths of Sturm and Flint were heart-wrenching.

In a way, Dragonlance essentialized the approach that WotC is taking now: making story front and center. But they did it through a great big meta-plot, with a corresponding railroady campaign. 4E came out 30 years later, with 30 years of D&D worlds and stories and trends, and an entirely different generation (or two!). Most new D&D players are Millenials and Gen Zers, who were born after 9/11, with a very different worldview.

But what I'm getting at is that I think the D&D world is ripe for "another Dragonlance" - another great big epic story to inspire and enjoy, and then play alongside of or re-create in your own way. But it probably won't be, shouldn't (can't) be Dragonlance. It has to be something that fits the current zeitgeist - perhaps something more dystopian. Dragonlance was very much the product of the naive and utopian 80s. The Dragonance of 2020 will be quite different. But I think D&D is ripe for it, and that at some point we'll see something like it.

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I think the key factor about Dragonlance is that the setting, the adventures, and the tie-in novels where pretty much all created by the same two people, giving it a consistency of vision that most of the other settings lack.

Now, I'm not a particular fan of that vision, but it's not a Frankenstein's Monster like the Forgotten Realms.

The novels were absolutely part of the appeal – Dragonlance represented a multimedia blitz. Heck, there was even a cookbook (which, I’ll admit, I still use).

When I went and re-read the first two Dragonlance trilogies, Sturm’s death was telegraphed so strongly, it felt fated, a destiny. Flint’s, on the other hand, remained rough – it’s so normal, and, err, human.

Chris Perkins has repeatedly talked about the importance of story in the game. Dragonlance absolutely ties into that.

Mercurius said:

To my newly emerging emotional self, the deaths of Sturm and Flint were heart-wrenching.

In a way, Dragonlance essentialized the approach that WotC is taking now: making story front and center.

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doctorbadwolf said:

I was always more into Tika, tbh. I cried when Sturm died, though, and again for Flint. And for Raistlin, though that was less sad and more...relieved, for the character.

Anyway, I don't think that gen z and younger millennials want dystopian stories as much as some people think. I think they want stories where hope is not in vain, where good wins through collective action, and where no one is a monster just because they look different.

A continuation of the DL story can absolutely do that, as could a remake.

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I forgot about Tika!

Anyhow, I agree with you about Gen Z. Well put. Maybe the sweet-spot would be a dystopian setting that finds renewal.

Mercurius said:

I've said before that I think the best way to handle Greyhawk is to go all in on a single, deluxe product. OK, two products: do a PDF like the Eberron one that can essentially be put together by a single person for relatively little cost, but then do a commemorative deluxe box set that includes elements of the glassic Greyhawk box set, the city box set, and Castle Greyhawk...I'm talking a huge $150-200 product. A deluxe product for serious collectors. And then just leave it.

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Absolutely. The market for 5e seems to be large enough to handle such a product. I'd think you could move 10,000 units of a $150 product easily enough and you wouldn't need to support it further. Fans would know they were getting a well-supported, high-quality product all in one box. I'd buy such a product and I'm only marginally a Greyhawk fan.

guachi said:

Absolutely. The market for 5e seems to be large enough to handle such a product. I'd think you could move 10,000 units of a $150 product easily enough and you wouldn't need to support it further. Fans would know they were getting a well-supported, high-quality product all in one box. I'd buy such a product and I'm only marginally a Greyhawk fan.

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I love the idea of this. However, from a business perspective, I think the problem is opportunity costs. Creating such a high end product would presumably entail quite a bit of effort on their part and be relatively pricey to produce. Maybe they could move enough units to make a profit, but for the same effort they could probably make a lot more money doing something else. Combine that with trying to keep a relatively constrained set of releases to avoid market splitting and confusion, and I think the incentives for a deluxe printed Greyhawk product aren't strong enough. (And I don't think 'sastisfying the Greyhawk lover market so they'll stop complaining' will put it over the top)

Now, if they produce a lower end pdf (ala Eberron) and manage to build a lot of support for it through that process, I can see it happening down the road. The other avenue is doing something very clever with their 'Sword and Sorcery'= Greyhawk angle and sell it as a major product release. Not because it's Greyhawk but because it captures something that their previous products haven't.

AD

TiwazTyrsfist said:

If it were presented and treated the way settings are currently in 5e, then Dragonlance would be a fairly typical fantasy setting with a does of "Our [blank] are different" tropes, a much stronger focus on the dragons than most settings, and some fairly setting specific subclasses.

The thing that really made Dragonlance different, Beloved by it's fans, Hated by it's detractors (besides Kender), was that every time Weis & Hickman wrote a book, the events of the book are fully canon and change the setting.

You're playing post Chronicles, and you're a cleric. Oh, a new set of books came out, "The Gods are gone again, you lose your magic." Oh, well, huh, that's uh, dang.

Giant Dragon razes the entire elf wood, all the green elves are dead.

Etc.

These things make the setting dynamic, but can also be upsetting for players.

Anyway, I really don't feel like WotC/Hasbro would be into maintaining a line like that at this point, so a 5e Dragonlance would end up being static. In which case, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, and Greyhawk are all similar in the sense of being traditional Fantasy settings. I'd love to have a good setting book for all of them, but they lack what I would call a "Strong Hook".

Eberron - Magipunk
Spell Jammer - Space Fantasy
Planescape - Planar reality jumping
Dark Sun - Harsh dying world fantasy
Forgotten Realms - The only setting we actually support in organized play
Greyhawk - Forgotten Realms Alpha (Not supported)
Dragonlance - Forgotten Realms but with realm events (Not Supported)

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As pointed out, most of the "we blew up the world" moments in Dragonlance were designed to be a meta way of updating the setting to shifting rules/editions: sorcerers, bards, etc. being added to the world via chaotic magic as an example. It should also be noted that several other settings (including forgotten realms) are equally guilty of this through stuff like the spell plague.

I'd argue that Dragonlance at it's core is focused around four things: warfare on a mass scale level, squabbling/in-fighting between Gods, the argument of free-will vs. destiny, and the effects that these these things have upon the mortals caught up there within. Most of the heroes found within the series are of humble origins and a large portion of the stories as a whole revolve around normal people rising up to overcome adversity and end up somehow becoming heroes in the process. They typically embody different forms of the hero's journey story format (albeit focused on groups of heroes), and not unlike Lord of the Rings, is generally a Tier 1 and Tier 2 sort of world in tone. Anyone past 10th level should feel like a big fish in a small pond ideally, and the stories evolve into said characters fighting either the handful of others at such power or avatars of the gods themselves. Unlike forgotten realms, the Dieties have a much more hands on approach, to the point that several books are literally from their perspectives. A big theme of this is also a sense of a grand cosmic balance (not unlike greyhawk) or that a big difference is that the gods, while immortal and cannot be permanently slain (unlike forgotten realms), they aren't *truly* sentient, or at least a few of the newer books imply this.

Faerun, on the other hand, feels much more like a Tier 2 and 3 world by comparison. The world is staggeringly big and a large concern is the players feeling like they are easily out of their depths or named characters just showing up and outclassing them. After all, it's *the* Elminster, Drizzt, Manshoon, Jarlaxle (however you spell his name), etc., how could *they* be weak?! People always like to bring up the concern for Dragonalance in the player's feeling second fiddle or "messing up" the cannon of the War of the Lance (and conveniently forgetting that that is literally the WORST period to run a Dragonlance game in), but rarely do we ever seen complaints about how the realms seem determined to self-promote some cameo from a realms character who just inevitable shows up and says to the players "you're cool and all, but you aren't Salvadore/Greenwood cool!" Honestly I feel like I could have a beer with Tanis, Sturm, or even Raistlin. I can't honestly see a Tier 1 character doing the same with a big name in the realms, something I personally view to be a problem.

Also, related point to those who keep wishing for a redone OG trilogy module for 5th. We've already had it; it's called "Tyranny of Dragons". It is literally the same plot. Just take HotDQ and RoTiamat and just move their locations to Dragonlance equivalent locations. As much as I'd enjoy a reprint conversion, it's not likely to happen in a 4-5 book per year D&D world.

warfare on a mass scale level

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free-will vs. destiny

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The bottom line is Dragonlance was very heavily influenced by Star Wars. It was first published shortly after Return of the Jedi was released. Greyhawk, Waterdeep (which later evolved into Forgotten Realms) and Mystara pre-date Star Wars (at least in inception).

Paul Farquhar said:

The bottom line is Dragonlance was very heavily influenced by Star Wars. It was first published shortly after Return of the Jedi was released. Greyhawk, Waterdeep (which later evolved into Forgotten Realms) and Mystara pre-date Star Wars (at least in inception).

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This certainly true. The Knight Orders are basically Jedi and Sith, and the Gods (whom they serve for much of the setting) could basically be compared to the Force. They are basically handled in universe the same and I often use star wars as a good comparison to if for my players. Of course this does make sense as Star Wars is also (at least the original trilogy) another Hero's Journey tale. Another big influence was of course Tolkien and Arthurian legends.

I feel that Dragonlance was starting to move away from Tolkien, at least in comparison to the earlier settings. Tolkien is full of British stiff-upper-lipness, Dragonlance is much more 80s America.