Revised Ranger update


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Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
None of which involve actually fighting. "Oh cool, can I have my panther leap at him and try to bite his face?" "You cooould, but it'd be better if he just played distraction." "Wow. So cool. End sarcasm."

Again, I suggest you are being far too literal in what you consider "fighting". There's a lot more involved in a fight than dealing direct physical damage.

The point where every animal companion except... two? Except two are melee creatures, and thus can't do the whole "I can be safe from damage by being too far away to easily be hit?" Sure, your wizard buddy can't really take many hits, but they also don't have to be right next to the opponent to contribute.

Many of which have some sort of support or maneuverability options, typically don't present as the most immediate threat when they remain in combat, and can hold their own against individual low-level opponents.

I acknowledge there's probably a middle ground between what exists now and "the equivalent to another PC" that would make a lot more folks a lot more happy without making the Beastmaster too overpowered and/or too fiddly within the action economy, but... other than the HD fix mentioned multiple times in this thread I'm not sure what that looks like.
 

Eric V

Hero
It’s not a tax, it’s an expansion of abilities. Not everyone would take them, only those who want their companion to have greater combat abilities than currently provided. Why wouldn’t that come at a price?

And if the price isn’t worth it, than what you are saying is that you don’t really want a better companion for some character concept you have in your head, you just want more power.

As to why not subclass features? Sure, as part of a new subclass it could work, but, as this thread has discussed for weeks now, the Revised Ranger will not be happening.

Seems spells and feats seem a more likely way to get this addressed given that announcement.

Of course I want more power for the companion...it dies far too easily!! Why would that be a problematic motivation to ask for a rule change?? "A better companion for some character concept I have in my head" (which, apparently, is all right as a motivation) necessarily includes greater survivability for the companion.

If the player setting out to play a Beastmaster finds out that his best option is to have it "Help" (and this only comes on at 7th level), and that he would have been just as well off with an owl familiar (a 1st level ritual), then that sucks. He should have played a Hunter (or whatever) with the Arcane Initiate feat.

As written, his subclass features are behind the subclass features of the other Ranger subclasses. Remember, we're not talking about "ribbons" here; but actual class mechanics. So to fix them with spells or feats (the latter of which are not allowed by some DMs) still puts them behind the other subclasses. That's why it's a tax.

I understand there's no good marketing reason for WotC to address this though, and that marketing has to take priority over everything else.

I think people should just play the Revised Ranger as is; it's overpowered, but not to paladin-levels.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Requires them to not attack. Back to "Not fighting". And if you say it can contribute better by blocking exits... so can a brick wall. Hell, a brick wall would take longer to get around. Can I have a brick wall as my animal companion please?

Because it'd be as exciting, and at least I'd get some RP out of the curiousness of it.

I already explained the fighting aspect. Your definition of "fighting" appears to differ from that of many others, and also seems pointless as they accomplish the same goal as your own definition of fighting. But even if you want to do the thing you insist means "fighting" you can, you just should pick the right animal companion. There are many that can pull off an attack with fairly low risk to themselves. For example, Giant Poisonous Snake has reach so can attack, has great AC, and has the best to hit value with attacks that cause great damage due to poison. Another option is the Flying Snake - also a great AC, great damage due to not allowing a save against its poison damage, flying speed with flyby attack, blindsight, a swim speed, etc. There are more than can do things which enable either the target to be disabled, or to move in attack and move away, safely.
 
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Yunru

Banned
Banned
Again, I suggest you are being far too literal in what you consider "fighting". There's a lot more involved in a fight than dealing direct physical damage.
Right, but what you don't think when you hear "animal companion" is "hireling with slightly more health". Because that's exactly what's being proposed: they're fine because you can play them the same way you would hired help that got caught in the battle.



Many of which have some sort of support or maneuverability options, typically don't present as the most immediate threat when they remain in combat, and can hold their own against individual low-level opponents.
There are? Just looking through the PHB we've:
The bat. Keen Hearing, but no combat support options. 1 hp and no manoeuvrability options beyond flight.
The boar. Strictly melee smash-in-the-face, with added bonus if they charge right at the enemy. Dead in seconds.
The cat. Keen Smell, that's it.
The constrictor snake. It can constrain if it hits, would be good if it didn't die so easy.
The frog...
The hawk. It has Keen Sight and flying. Not bad utility. 1 HP (so 4x level at all times) and tiny though, so expect it to get eaten by a bigger predator.
The mastiff. Keen Hearing and Smell. No hit dice to speak of, so another "keep out of combat at all times."
The owl. Flyby, our first manoeuvrability option!
The panther. It can knock prone... if it charges straight at the things that can one/two-shot it.
The poisonous snake. Oh hey, I guess you could milk it for venom to apply to your weapons with a generous DM.
The rat. Keen Smell and vilified by civilisation.
The raven. It can mimic stuff, which can be useful.
The wolf. Pack Tactics! Great if it's adjacent to an enemy. With no way to safely retreat.

And that's it.
1 manoeuvrability option, and a couple of support options that mostly require charging straight to the animal companion's death.
 

Yunru

Banned
Banned
I already explained the fighting aspect.
No, you explained how the Help action can count as fighting by supporting another.
No amount of Help action will, say, let a Panther pounce on it's prey.
And as others have mentioned, it only works as a tactic once you hit level 7 with the exception of very few creatures, one of which is quite possibly extinct. So yay, my subclasses doesn't do anything before level 7 except die very quickly.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Right, but what you don't think when you hear "animal companion" is "hireling with slightly more health". Because that's exactly what's being proposed: they're fine because you can play them the same way you would hired help that got caught in the battle.




There are? Just looking through the PHB we've:
The bat. Keen Hearing, but no combat support options. 1 hp and no manoeuvrability options beyond flight.
The boar. Strictly melee smash-in-the-face, with added bonus if they charge right at the enemy. Dead in seconds.
The cat. Keen Smell, that's it.
The constrictor snake. It can constrain if it hits, would be good if it didn't die so easy.
The frog...
The hawk. It has Keen Sight and flying. Not bad utility. 1 HP (so 4x level at all times) and tiny though, so expect it to get eaten by a bigger predator.
The mastiff. Keen Hearing and Smell. No hit dice to speak of, so another "keep out of combat at all times."
The owl. Flyby, our first manoeuvrability option!
The panther. It can knock prone... if it charges straight at the things that can one/two-shot it.
The poisonous snake. Oh hey, I guess you could milk it for venom to apply to your weapons with a generous DM.
The rat. Keen Smell and vilified by civilisation.
The raven. It can mimic stuff, which can be useful.
The wolf. Pack Tactics! Great if it's adjacent to an enemy. With no way to safely retreat.

And that's it.
1 manoeuvrability option, and a couple of support options that mostly require charging straight to the animal companion's death.

Maybe you should read a guide.
This one is pretty good as well.
 
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Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
Right, but what you don't think when you hear "animal companion" is "hireling with slightly more health". Because that's exactly what's being proposed: they're fine because you can play them the same way you would hired help that got caught in the battle.

Honestly, my first thoughts when I hear "animal companion" are Aladdin and the PS2 cult action game Mark of Kri. Also, you know, The Beastmaster, who, yes, fights alongside a tiger, but for my money gets a lot more mileage out of his eagle and ferret companions. Helpful in a pinch but not something I'd expect to fight right at my side against anything more threatening that, say, a bugbear.

Also, if I'm fighting a bugbear alongside my trusty wolf, and the bugbear starts attacking my wolf because he sees it as the bigger threat, there's something that's gone horribly wrong and has little to do with the construction of the class or its features.

And that's it.
1 manoeuvrability option, and a couple of support options that mostly require charging straight to the animal companion's death.

I exaggerated a bit on the straight maneuverability options (though you are discounting how useful the prone condition for getting in and out of harm's way). [MENTION=2525]Mistwell[/MENTION] once again clearly demonstrates some of the other ways different animal companions can be handy in a fight, but you've helpfully ignored those (and basically everything else I said).

Again, what you seem to be asking for is something at least approaches the same level of combat functionality and survivability as another PC. I posit that that is an unreasonable request.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
No?

If it's in the MM it's up to the DM whether it's available.

Furthermore, if you need a guide just to be able to pick a usable companion, that should be the biggest red flag you can get short of the class literally causing players to explode.

Your definition of "usable" is not universal.
 

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