Coup de grace - Evil act?

Trellian · Jan 28, 2002

I have a character in my group who is a Chaotic Good Ranger/Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter/Holy Liberator of Tymora. In the last session, the rest of the groupt was wiped out by the elves in the Dragon's Lair module by Sean Reynolds. Joshua, as he is called, escaped, and allied himself temporarily with the evil assassin Doxon and his group of likeminded, including a cleric of Cyric.

They returned to the elves' tower later that night, and Joshua and Doxon snuck in, using stealth. Doxon killed to elves without arousing the two at rest in reverie. Doxon and Joshua than performed a coup de grace on the two remaining elves.

Do you think this was an appropriate thing for Joshua to do? Considering his alignment and devotion to Tymora? I mean, allying himself with an evil band to revenge his fallen comrades (and retrieve their bodies) are in my opinion OK, but to kill a helpless foe, no matter how evil?

I feel that he in any case should receive an Atonement spell or lose his divine powers. Maybe som XP penalty? Any thoughts?

BTW, I am not sure if this is the right forum...

pontus · Jan 28, 2002

I don't know the oath for the Holy Liberator. Slitting the throat of someone helpless is not something I would recomend for a Paladin, but since you are chaotic your oath is probably a bit more flexible.

Your character may feel bad about it, but that doesn't necessarily mean his goddess does.

Trellian · Jan 28, 2002

Well, a Holy Liberator is kind of a Chaotic Good version of the paladin (described in Defenders of the faith). He fights evil regimes and liberates the supressed people of the realm.

It wasn't as if he planned upon doing it, but seeing the faces of the ones responsible for his friends deaths might have pushed him over the edge...

MasterOfHeaven · Jan 28, 2002

Question... do you consider executions evil? Because executions involve killing a helpless person. However, said person has commited a vile and depraved act, (murder, treason) and thus must pay the penalty.

Just because someone is helpless doesn't exclude them from facing the proper punishment for their crimes. Said Elves murdered your players characters friends, and as such he had every right to exact justice upon them for the deed. The only questionable act was allying with the evil group, but since he did to retrieve the bodies of his friends, and hopefully ressurect them, I'd let it slide.

Plane Sailing · Jan 28, 2002

The way that I'd handle it is that he would lose some (but not all) his holy benefits, to show displeasure from his Good god. Atonement would regain them.

This was the penalty I used for a paladin-like class in my campaign when he threw an evil bookkeeper into the midst of a gibbering mouther, against his conscience. He lost spell ability but retained everything else until he atoned.

I think it is a good opportunity to make a rules-backed roleplaying point out of it. Angst is great for good characters!

Cheers

UofMDude · Jan 28, 2002

A Ranger/Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter/Holy Liberator? Ok. First I would have the player (not the character) executed for being a munchkin cheeseball.

But what to do about the player? I would have a much bigger problem with him allying with a group of evil people to do this than with actually doing a CDG. He is CHAOTIC after all. If a paladin did this it would probably be bad news on both counts. A paladin wouldn't be out for revenge. He would be out to capture the people and bring them in for justice.

That's my take on it.

UofMDude

SpikeyFreak · Jan 28, 2002

UofMDude said:
A Ranger/Barbarian/Rogue/Fighter/Holy Liberator? Ok. First I would have the player (not the character) executed for being a munchkin cheeseball.

UofMDude

Amen to that brutha!

--Anti-Cheese-Ball Spikey

Numion · Jan 28, 2002

Meself I don't see that much of a difference between casting a Destruction on someone and casting Hold and the CDGing on the same person.

CDG per se isn't evil, if you were going to kill them anyway. Maybe it's honorable to let them know first they're going to die, but good != honorable in the general sense. IMHO, YMMV, etc...

Darkness · Jan 28, 2002

Heh. This is kinda funny... See, a couple months ago, we had a very similar discussion on the WotC boards. It was about a devout follower of Torm CDG'ing a cleric of Cyric. And guess who said that it was okay and he should go ahead with it? Sean K. Reynolds - who wrote the adventure you are currently running!

Anyway, Sean's point (with which I agree) was that killing a downed enemy was no more "evil" than letting him bleed to death, and that the evil priest deserved death either way.
[Disclaimer: IIRC - but I'm pretty sure I do.

]

Artoomis · Jan 28, 2002

CdG is not a problem for any alignment, and is certainly not evil, in and of itself.

Allying oneself with evil, for whatever reason, is most definately a neutral act, at best. Certainly not good - and I would penalyze you for that since you are a Holy Liberator.

It seems to me that an "ends justifies the means" argument is great for neutrals, but not for goods.