D&D 5E Sorcerer Rebalance, Through Flexible Casting And Wizard Spells

There is something fundamentally off with 5E Sorcerers.

Most groups have only a single arcane spellcaster. Sorcerers are too inflexible to fill that role.

Also, if you don't choose the blaster role, you aren't compensated in any way (that is, if you abstain from Fireball, do you get any bonus? Such as two known spells instead of just the one? No)

This makes every Sorcerer that doesn't choose the best-in-class spells severely underpowered, and it makes every Sorcerer something that really only works in agroup that already has one more spellcaster (so the Sorcerer can focus on blasting things, and leaving all the special cases to the other guy).

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Compounding this is WotC's choice to make it not only difficult but outright impossible to cast spells not on your list. You can't even use a scroll.

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Finally, metamagic should have been something available to all (full) spellcasters. Now sorcerer is mainly the wonky underserved class that stole that fun toy.

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Sorcerers COULD have been much more atmospheric and evocative. WotC should have accepted the class wasn't ready for prime time and cut it from the PHB, and only released it once there was massively more support for the elemental themes: draconic sorcerers, blood mages, winter witches, storm lords etc...

And for the love of god, WotC, not getting the free choice of a Wizard does not a theme make! :mad:

I don't often agree with the good Captain, but in this case I am in complete agreement: it was an infelicitous combination of WotC not anticipating the backlash of making a basically 4e sorcerer (with a little 3x added on, which largely worked for the warlock) as the default in 5e during its short-lived playtest appearance and 3x sorcerer fans not believing (and apparently still not believing) that WotC would do anything but clone the 3x casters and casting systems into 5e. They threw a Hail Mary and it largely missed (except that the sorcerer is a really good multiclass option). I think if the PHB and the DMG came out and sorcerer fans saw that everyone can spontaneously cast and use points, then WotC would have been in a better position to float some options for a unique gimmick for sorcerers via UA articles. I look at the latest Mystic and can't help but think "this is the sorcerer we were supposed to have" (except for using int.)
 

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CapnZapp

Legend
If you're as storm wizard and all your spells do Lightning or Thunder damage, you're S.O.L. if you come across an enemy who's resistant to those and vulnerable to, e.g., Fire.

Or maybe you're okay with that as a design principle, but it's something to consider.
D&D works best when any thematic constraints are light, and rewarding instead of penalizing in nature.

That is why I formed my suggestion the way I did. You are never obligated to only learn or cast Light/Thunder spells.

It's just that it's only your theme spells that provide Sorcery point fuel.

You remain fully free to cast Fireball or whatever. You just don't get any bonus points for it.

You're rewarded for sticking to your theme. You are not penalized for not sticking to your theme.
 

Infammo

First Post
Someone mentioned this the other day in another thread. Smite has errata stating that smite can be used with any spell slot.

My patience doesn't really let me discuss minor details like this, when the bigger issues of sorcerers won't get solved by anything less than a redo of the class.

Sorcerers should have been designed around a "theme" that the player chooses for his character. Storm, Winter, Fire, Swamp, Blood or whatever. Then whenever you cast a spell from this "theme" you gain a couple of Sorcery Points, which you can use for a select few metamagic-on-the-fly effects and more spell slots otherwise.

They made smite work with any spell slot? Huh. That is both awkward and sensible. It was a huge restriction on paladins that they could not multiclass into other casters without losing smite chances.
Then again, this also means you can now build a level 2 paladin half-elf/elf that moves over into bladesinger. You now have a heavy-armour and shield proficient caster that hits twice, can smite and can become a 19th level caster. Also able to get an AC bonus from Bladesong along with acrobatics advantage. Gish much?

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CapnZapp:
The fact that sorcerers should just get a redesign moment like they did for the ranger, in preparation for the next official book release is something I am entirely in agreement with.
These threads are made and in the end most to everyone agrees that sorcerer has some sort of issue, which makes the the situation rather plain.

Sorcerers seem to have a design that wanted to go multiple ways, but ended up falling short in most directions. Casting has changed in such a way that spontaneous caster is no longer a thing, there is spontaneous casting and spontaneous preparation casting. In the end, so many things can be improved about sorcerers that I worked out a niche approach in order to make it as easy as possible on my players. So far it has been met with general approval.

Sorcerers could indeed use at least another metamagic from start, or just having them all and giving the class proper level up features rather than 'an extra metamatic'. Or just added in another one in the progression.

We can also raise our eyebrows how in the first Favoured Soul UA, Wotc told us to be cautious or stay away from re-balancing the sorcerers spell and sorcery point potential. Or how the sorcerers level 20 ability is extremely lackluster compared to other classes. Even monks who have a similar one has a more powerful version. If level 20 monk is at 0 ki points, they gain 4 at every initiative. The sorcerer is basically told to take a short rest and gain 4 extra, when their base pool is already 20 and that is it.

There is just a lot of dissonance with the class. Pending official acknowledgement from Sorcerers of the Shore, this thread is my small offering in ways to give your sorcerer players a bit more fun in the meantime, more flexibility to play with.
 
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MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I've put some work into this problem. I wanted to address three problems: Thematic versatility, Mechanical versatility and Power. So far the class isn't ready yet, but at least this subclass is (I also preserved archetype levels so they remain compatible). There are some obvious flaws like how are you getting radiant damage as a sorcerer, but those are covered by the main class I'm still working on.

Oh and in case this one looks familiar is because it obviously is. But hey, it is ten themes in the same space that used to be used by one and there is room to customize with more, it is all mix and match according to taste.



Atavic Scion
Your innate magic comes from the blood of a supernatural or magical creature that was infused into you or was your ancestor. This power is inherited through bloodlines, but only a few truly manifest the signs of their magical ancestor.
Supernatural Ancestor
At 1st level, you choose one magical creature, supernatural creature or dragon as your ancestor. Each creature is associated with one language and one damage type.

Supernatural Ancestor
AncestorLanguageDamage type
AngelCelestialRadiant
DemonAbyssalNecrotic
DevilInfernalFire
DjinniAuranThunder
DragonDraconicBy Color:
Fire (Red, Gold, & Brass)
Lighting (Blue & Bronze),
Cold (Silver & White),
Acid (Black & Copper),
Poison (Green)
ElementalBy element:
Aquan (Water),
Auran (Air),
Ignan (Fire),
Terran (Earth)
By element:
Cold (Air & Water)
Fire (Fire)
Bludgeoning (Earth)
EfreetiIgnanFire
FeySylvanPsychic
MaridAquanCold
PhoenixSylvanFire


You know and are fully literate on the language of your ancestor. And when you make a Charisma check to interact with creatures of the same kind as your ancestor, your proficiency bonus is doubled if it applies to the check.

Atavic Sign

The magic flowing through your veins causes physical traits of your ancestors to emerge. At 1st level, you gain one of the following benefits depending on your ancestor:

  • Demon: Your hands are deformed and finish in talon-like claws. Your unarmed strikes deal 1d6+your Strength modifier slashing damage.
  • Angel,Fey: You are surrounded by a supernatural aura of beauty that calls attention to you. You have advantage on Charisma(Bluff) and Charisma(Persuasion) checks.
  • Devil: Your eyes glow with a reddish light. You have darkvision up to 60', if you already have darkvision, magical darkness doesn't impede it.
  • Djinni: Sparks surround you. When you are hit in melee by an enemy, they take 1d6 lightning damage.
  • Dragon: Parts of your skin are covered by a thin sheen of dragon-like scales. When you aren't wearing armor, your AC equals 13 + your Dexterity modifier.
  • Efreeti: Your hands are constantly reddish and scalding hot. You learn the Fire Bolt cantrip.
  • Elemental: Your body randomly turns into the element of your ancestor and back. You can move through very narrow spaces without squeezing.
  • Marid: Gills grow on your neck. You can breath both water and air and have a swim speed of 30 feet.
  • Phoenix: Flames move constantly and harmlessly through your body. Fire damage you receive increases your hit points instead, and you can light non-magical fires at-will.

Elemental Affinity
Starting at 6th level, when you cast a spell that deals damage of the type associated with your supernatural ancestor, you can add your Charisma modifier to one damage roll of that spell. At the same time, you can spend a 1st-level spell slot to gain resistance to that damage type for 1 hour.
Atavic Legacy
At 14th level, you unlock the gift of your ancestor to transcend the limits of your humanoid form. The exact effect depends on your ancestor:

  • Demon, Djinni, Efreeti, Marid: You gain the ability to turn into a cloud of gas, you and your equipment become incorporeal and gain a fly speed of 10 feet, but lose all other means of locomotion. While in this form, you can occupy the same area as another creature and pass through small spaces on solid surfaces. You can enter into this form as a bonus action, and you can dismiss it and return to your physical form as a bonus action.
  • Angel, Devil, Dragon, or Phoenix: You gain the ability to sprout a pair of appropriate wings from your back, gaining a flying speed equal to your current speed. You can create these wings as a bonus action on your turn. They last until you dismiss them as a bonus action on your turn. You can't manifest your wings while wearing armor unless the armor is made to accommodate them, and clothing not made to accommodate your wings might be destroyed when you manifest them.
  • Fey: You transform into an ethereal form of supernatural beauty. In this form, you can freely modify your aspect and your factions. In addition you can teleport up to 30 feet as part of your movement.
  • Elemental: Your gain the ability to turn your body into a pure embodiment of your element. While in this form you are immune to damage associated with of your ancestor and poison damage. You can enter into this form as a bonus action, and you can dismiss it and return to your physical form as a bonus action.
Ancestral Presence
Beginning at 18th level, you can channel the spirit of your ancestor. You learn a bonus spell according to your ancestry, this spell doesn't count towards your spells known and is always a sorcerer spell for you.

AncestorSpell
AngelSpirit Guardian
DemonFear
DevilBestow Curse
DjinniWind Wall
DragonFear
ElementalProtection from Energy
EfreetiClairvoyance
FeyBestow Curse
MaridClairvoyance
PhoenixRevivify
 
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Now you are asking the real questions, and a damn good one too. In this case, you have to remember that the spell slot and metamagic was so heavily balanced away from spell slot creation that anything that was not metamagic, felt like a waste. Ergo, to begin with, there was no real balance. Rather a scale with a big fat note of 'Metamagic' holding it down.

Now that I have had time to do some math, I have to ask how you reached this conclusion. Establishing a concrete baseline value for a sorcery point is always going to be tricky matter, but there are ways to approach it.

As I am playing and deciding whether or not to empower a spell, the comparison I make is to quickened spell. In its most common usage, quickened allows the sorcerer to cast a cantrip on the present turn, and, if that cantrip is a damaging one, it is most likely to be fire bolt. Because quickened costs two sorcery points, its value gained per point, in present-turn damage, is half the average damage of fire bolt: 2.75 at first level, 5.5 at fifth, 8.25 at eleventh, and 11 at seventeenth. (Note I am discounting things like chance to hit and damage type.) I like this approach because it scales the value of sorcery points with player level, so that I am less likely to frivolously empower spells when their damage is still reasonably near the expected mean.

Speaking of empowered spell, that metamagic provides an alternative means of valuing a sorcery point. If you use it to reroll the damage of the highest raw-damage single-target spell at each spell level (assuming for convenience a +5 Cha mod, and excluding scorching ray because of its awkward interaction with the metamagic), you find that it adds 3 present-turn damage to a 1st-level chromatic orb or catapult, 4 to the same spell from a 2nd-level slot, a little more than 5.8 to a fireball or lightning bolt at 3rd, almost 6.9 to vitriolic sphere at 4th (rerolling both instances of damage, which is usually not actually a good play using the quickened test), a little over 7.2 to vitriolic sphere at 5th (same deal), more than 6.8 to disintegrate at 6th, almost 7.2 to the same spell at 7th, approaching 7.5 to the same at 8th, and 9th is difficult to calculate because of the huge number of dice of meteor swarm. It would, I guess, approach 12.5 in theory. All of these numbers are only considering a single-target, for the record.

One could perform a similar check with heightened spell, though that would require making some assumptions about save chances. Roughing it out with disintegrate and an optimal 50% save chance, it would add 6.25 present-turn damage at 6th spell level and 8 at 8th. Heightened spell is basically only worth using with disintegrate and plane shift, because most other save spells do half damage on a success.

Similarly with twinned spell, the calculation is possible but a little more difficult because of the requirement of two targets. Twinning a 1st-level chromatic orb would add 13.5 damage for one sorcery point, 2nd level would add 9 damage per point, and then things get blurry because the best damage spells until disintegrate cannot be twinned. Twinning a 6th-level disintegrate adds 12.5 present-turn damage per sorcery point, and the number drops to 12 by 8th spell level. But again, this is complicated by twinned spell's restrictions and split damage.

I would thus value the quickened and empowered estimates more than the others when estimating the value of a sorcery point. It starts around 3 present-turn damage, rises to 5.5 or so at 5th player level, 6.8-8.25 at 11th, and perhaps as high as 11-12.5 at 17th. The average for the entire range of levels, and especially those where most groups play most of the time, is probably in the 6-7 range. How does creating spell slots compare?

If you spend two sorcery points to create a 1st-level slot to cast chromatic orb, you gain 6.75 present-turn damage per point. At 2nd level, you get 6. At 3rd, 5.6, though note that this is the point where the large AoEs and powerful buffs start taking over as the top spells, so single-target damage might be a little misleading. Spending six sorcery points for a 4th-level slot to cast vitriolic sphere, you get 6.25 damage per point. And with a 5th-level slot, you get a little more than 6 damage per point.

I conclude that creating spell slots is a better use of sorcery points at lower levels, they're about even through the meat of the game, and metamagic becomes clearly better at the higher levels. This is also tempered by the enduring value of low-level slots; things like absorb elements, mage armor, shield, mirror image, and misty step scale with enemy damage and chance to hit.

Thus, I have to disagree with you that creating spell slots is not balanced against metamagic.

In the current economy listed, it makes 1st and 2nd slot creation feel like a metamagic option. Because they have that approximate cost. While anything of 3rd and above, is one point cheaper, aside from 5th level spells, which has the same cost as originally. As such, due to the fact that most level one slots are utility slots, and second level spells are not the go-to slot for high damage or battlefield domination, this is not so bad indeed. Also, a sorcerer has so few known spells that their 1st and 2nd level spells are limited in selection if you want a versatile list later.

In the re-balanced economy, it sort of averages out. Because: "Hmm, sure, I could get a third level slot, but I would really like to augment x spell. Perhaps I should just sacrifice a 3rd level spells for points, if I suddenly need a third level slot, I can convert them back mid combat as a bonus action." Because as you might notice, the conversion for 3rd and 4th level spells, is in fact 1:1 Giving you a lot of flexibility.

For a sorcerer, this is not really breaking anything whatsoever, as the very limited spell choices you have means that you do not have an incredible library of spells for each level to choose from. Each spell slot has a limited amount of utility without metamagic.

The type of "flexibility" that you see this giving the sorcerer looks a lot like an undo button, which I would view as antithetical to the basic conceit of role-playing games that the player's choices matter. But does it break anything?

Well, that odd situation where sorcerers can create 4th- and 5th-level spell slots before they would normally have them from character progression? You just extended it down to 2nd- and 3rd-level slots. A 5th-level sorcerer could have a 4th-level slot two levels before normal progression would give it to him or her. And then he or she could crunch a 3rd-level slot and a 1st-level slot to get another 4th. And again. It would make sorcerer the exclusive best blaster class until at least ninth level, and even after that it would have a considerable advantage. I would call it broken.

I'll be brief about multiclassing, since I have other things to do. For a non-caster, three levels in sorcerer would grant four 1st-level slots, two 2nd, and three sorcery points. The points could be converted to 1st-level slots, and then both 2nd-level slots broken down and also converted, giving the character up to eleven casts of absorb elements, shield, charm person, etc., per day, compared to seven RAW. A warlock could gain that many slots for his or her non-scaling spells and save the pact-magic slots for the scaling stuff. A paladin could smite for days. And that's on top of the normal advantages of multiclassing with sorc--Con-save proficiency, subclass features, metamagic, social skills. It still looks broken to me.

CapnZapp:
The fact that sorcerers should just get a redesign moment like they did for the ranger, in preparation for the next official book release is something I am entirely in agreement with.
These threads are made and in the end most to everyone agrees that sorcerer has some sort of issue, which makes the the situation rather plain.

It's an echo chamber. It's the same small group of people making the same half-considered statements and nodding in agreement with each other, in thread after thread month after month.
 

It's an echo chamber. It's the same small group of people making the same half-considered statements and nodding in agreement with each other, in thread after thread month after month.

I haven't made a roster of participants, so I can't directly refute or confirm that. However, I will say that I started out as a defender of the sorcerer being fine as is, but then I changed my mind once I found myself frustrated attempting to actually create a reasonable sorcerer character, and started a deeper analysis.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
[MENTION=6801445]Cognomen's Cassowary[/MENTION] I wouldn't call this an echo chamber. At least not more than what can be expected of a forum on the internet. I was about the first to cry wolf back there during the playtest. Like a mad Cassandra I predicted that giving the wizards the prepared+spontaneous combo would leave little mechanical space for the sorcerer while not really changing the thematic space in the wizard. And that that pressure would lead to either something that looked broken on paper or that would be quite lame and easily overshadowed. I tried to remain positive during the previews, but by the time the actual products hit the shelves I was already disappointed. And I remained basically the only one to be pessimistic. Now I can count more and more names that think in similar ways, and I've done little if anything to try to convince anyone. [MENTION=6874856]Infammo[/MENTION] is a new name to that list.

(Oh yes and the disclaimer. I pinkie swear Infammo is in no way related or connected to me and gotta be a real person independent of me instead of a sockpuppet or paid ghost)
 

Infammo

First Post
(Oh yes and the disclaimer. I pinkie swear Infammo is in no way related or connected to me and gotta be a real person independent of me instead of a sockpuppet or paid ghost)

Don't be ridiculous. I am far superior to a sock-puppet. I would clearly be a Jim Henson-level animatronic.

As for repeated statements, that is no surprise. As we are all confined to forums and communities, when something seems off, humans in that state are reduced to the inability to change something. Frustration manifests. If one were even to consider alternatives that are not an 'echo' chamber. What would that be? An online petition is stereotypical, but a classic endeavor. The only way an appeal can be made, is to humbly request WoTC to take a second design look at the sorcerer. It worked for the ranger. At least it is the only path that appears in my mind.

Oh well.
 

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