The Battle Continues Over "Childish Things"

The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."
The recent kerfuffle between Bill Maher and comic fans mourning Stan Lee's passing has illustrated an ugly truth that geeks everywhere continue to face: geekdom is still viewed by some as a sign that society has failed to "grow up."

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.​
[h=3]It Started with Stan[/h]The death of comics legend Stan Lee prompted an outpouring of grief and comedian Bill Maher took his passing as an opportunity to take a shot at fandom with an essay titled "Adulting":

"...the assumption everyone had back then, both the adults and the kids, was that comics were for kids, and when you grew up you moved on to big-boy books without the pictures. But then twenty years or so ago, something happened – adults decided they didn’t have to give up kid stuff. And so they pretended comic books were actually sophisticated literature."

The response was swift. Maher admitted the lost 40,000 Twitter followers after his post and that he's still followed by paparazzi asking him about "the Stan Lee thing." In response, Maher doubled down in a scathing attack on geekdom everywhere with a video titled, "New Rule: Grow Up":

"...the point of my blog is that I'm not glad Stan Lee is dead I'm sad you're alive...my shot wasn't at Stan Lee it was at, you know, grown men who still dress like kids...I'm sorry but if you are an adult playing with superhero dolls--I'm sorry, I mean collectible action figures!--why not go all the way and drive to work on a big wheel? Grown-ups these days, they cling so desperately to their childhood that when they do attempt to act their age they have a special word for it now, 'adulting'."

If those statements make your blood boil, you're not alone. The comic book industry's condemnation of Maher's comments were swift and wide-reaching. Stan Lee's estate responded directly to Maher:

Mr. Maher: Comic books, like all literature, are storytelling devices. When written well by great creators such as Stan Lee, they make us feel, make us think and teach us lessons that hopefully make us better human beings. One lesson Stan taught so many of us was tolerance and respect, and thanks to that message, we are grateful that we can say you have a right to your opinion that comics are childish and unsophisticated. Many said the same about Dickens, Steinbeck, Melville and even Shakespeare. But to say that Stan merely inspired people to “watch a movie” is in our opinion frankly disgusting. Countless people can attest to how Stan inspired them to read, taught them that the world is not made up of absolutes, that heroes can have flaws and even villains can show humanity within their souls.

The same criticism has been leveled at all things geeky, including role-playing games.
[h=3]Are Role-Playing Games Childish?[/h]Maher's attack on comics is essentially an attack on geekdom itself; the defense from Stan Lee's estate is an argument for the kind of imaginative storytelling that is at the heart of role-playing games.

In a lengthy response to a Quora question if D&D is "too immature and childish," Jake Harris explained:

D&D is a great game that brings people of all kinds together, for those willing to actually try and enjoy it. It's far from childish. Same with other forms of science fiction and fantasy. I strongly believe that these are lowkey pillars of society, which endure when pop culture constantly waxes and wanes with new trends and interpretations of “pop”. Dungeons & Dragons might have 6 Editions (I'm counting 3rd and 3.5 Editions) and Pathfinder, but its playerbase and rules remain largely the same: sit around a table, and travel to far-off lands, doing what no one else in the world is able to. Maybe you think that's childish. Maybe you could even argue that it is. Fine. I submit that maybe our world needs a little childishness. Maybe if we learn to fight less and play more we might actually get somewhere. If we choose to let the children inside of us inspire ourselves and those around us, we might not be stuck with all the problems we have.

Comedian and actor Patton Oswalt doesn't see a difference between pop culture and geek culture:

...I've got news for you—pop culture is nerd culture. The fans of Real Housewives of Hoboken watch, discuss, and absorb their show the same way a geek watched Dark Shadows or obsessed over his eighth-level half-elf ranger character in Dungeons & Dragons. It's the method of consumption, not what's on the plate.

That times have changed is perhaps best exemplified by the Collins online dictionary, which signified a shift away from Maher's perspective:

Once a slur reserved for eggheads and an insult aimed at lovers of computer programming, geek has been deemed the word of the year by the Collins online dictionary. Less brazen than selfie – which topped the Oxford Dictionaries poll last month – geek was chosen as a reminder of how an insult can be transformed into a badge of honour, according to Collins. In September the dictionary changed the main definition of geek from someone preoccupied with computing to "a person who is very knowledgeable and enthusiastic about a specific subject'', adding geekery, geek chic and geekdom to the fold.

Part of geekdom is maintaining the passion for things we enjoyed as children into adulthood, but it does not necessarily mean that we aren't effectively "adulting." Although geekdom seems to have taken over popular culture, comedians like Maher are there to remind us that not everyone is okay with the takeover.

Mike "Talien" Tresca is a freelance game columnist, author, communicator, and a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for sites to earn advertising fees by advertising and linking to http://amazon.com. You can follow him at Patreon.
 

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Michael Tresca

Michael Tresca

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
Well by the definition: I disagree with you, so that means that I must be Trolling you.

Maybe this is a good place to stop. Thank you for the discussion and the movie recommendation.

I'm glad that you're enjoying the movie; less glad that you've decided to end our conversation on such an intellectually dishonest note. But c'est la vie.
 

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Shasarak

Banned
Banned
I'm glad that you're enjoying the movie; less glad that you've decided to end our conversation on such an intellectually dishonest note. But c'est la vie.

Come on man, really was that necesary? So now that I am intellectually dishonest I guess that means you win.

Congratulations.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
Come on man, really was that necesary? So now that I am intellectually dishonest I guess that means you win.

Congratulations.

Considering you threw out your own "winning" parting shot in hammering that "you only call it trolling because you disagree with it" line for the umpteenth time in spite of my demonstrating time and time again that was never true (hence the intellectual dishonesty), followed quickly by the "and now I'm shutting down this conversation, pretending to take the high road" (which is its own kind of intellectual dishonesty), kind of?

Probably not though.


Edit: Yes I do realize I am also trolling at this point, a reminder that I should put my money where my mouth is. I apologize for any unnecessary antagonism. As a fig leaf, I will say I was being honest earlier; I am genuinely glad to have been able to point you towards something that you’re finding engaging, despite my own personal quibbles with it.
 
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Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
IQ tests are total garbage; the joke from this bit was that the Senator inadvertently dunked on his own intelligence, with the unspoken subtext from Maher (editing!) being that maybe it should a requirement.

IQ tests are certainly not total garbage. They're highly useful in many circumstances, for instance generating an assessment of a low performing student for learning disabilities. However, what they are is more limited than people tend to think.

Other than that, I agree---Maher is a smug troll. If I never see him again, I won't feel bad.
 

Gradine

The Elephant in the Room (she/her)
IQ tests are certainly not total garbage. They're highly useful in many circumstances, for instance generating an assessment of a low performing student for learning disabilities. However, what they are is more limited than people tend to think.

Other than that, I agree---Maher is a smug troll. If I never see him again, I won't feel bad.

I would argue that even the limited scope of what they actually measure is not particularly valuable on the whole. But that’s a rabbit hole of social statistics that is too far afield even for this thread.
 

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
I hope we all can be friendly so bad stuff doesn't happen... (You know, so we can keep the nice thing we had going here)

I'm not familiar with Bill Maher, nor his routines or his sense of humor -perhaps not my thing-. The arguments don't come as funny, and I'm sure these are ill informed. However, while I think that society's choice in entertainment has no bearing on society's overall maturity, there's definitely something happening with it. I see it around me, and overall. (Like, and I swear this happened, in my country, a bunch of kids fainted after a 10 minute spring a few days ago, one even falling into a coma. What's happening?) But I think that discussing it goes beyond the scope and allowances of this forum.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
Superheroes aren't even worhty of the mockery he's giving the medium, though. Blake Panther isn't a silly kid's movie. Gail Simone's Clean Room isn't a silly kid's comic.

Yes, that was part of my point. He's mistakenly attacking the medium rather than the genre. It would be like if he thought rap was violent and misogynistic, and therefore claimed music is violent and misogynistic. His opinion is clearly meant to be applied to the super hero genre rather than the comic book medium.

As for criticism of the super hero genre....I think that as with any genre, there will be examples of quality work, and examples of poor work. When super heroes are done poorly, it's often a case of the work being childish or overly simplistic or derivative. In that regard, I can at least understand his criticism. I don't necessarily agree with it, but at the same time, I've found myself reading a super hero comic and wondering what I was getting out of it. There's plenty of superhero material out there that's not saying anything new at all...not doing anything original or different. Not saying anything. But, those books are likely the first comics being read by some young kid, so in that sense, they don't need to do anything new. They just need to be about Batman or Spider-Man or whatever.

That kind of "default status" that most super hero stories have is what limits them. It doesn't allow change. Or at least, it doesn't allow lasting change.

Now, there are plenty of works involving super heroes that are able to avoid this, but it doesn't mean that the genre is above criticism, or that this one in particular doesn't have something to it.
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
I think it's fair to say parents of young children used to go a lot more movies without the kids. How else to explain the fact that Kramer vs Kramer, a drama about divorce, was the top grossing movie of 1979. That would be unthinkable today.

But it's also true that parents didn't have a problem taking/sending kids to 'adult' movies. I remember going to see Gandhi for a friend's birthday when we were 12, and to On Golden Pond for another friends' birthday when we were about the same age. Again, pretty tough to imagine that happening today.

It's probably a lot of other factors. Most notably the major explosion in entertainment options over time. Folks these days have many alternatives to movies. Folks in the 60s or 70s had far fewer.

Another would be changes within the industry. Fear of loss means less risks are taken, and so original concepts or ideas are less likely to get far before corporate interference plays a part. Most of the larger studios are looking for tent pole type movies.

The kind of drama that you're talking about still exists (for example, "Green Book"), they're just far less likely to be a major focus on a studio's marketing agenda. And also, such material has shifted over to television and streaming media.


But isn't there something stagnant about liking the same things at 15 and at 25 and at 35 and at 45? Can't nostalgia and the effort to re-capture or hang onto childhood be unhealthy?

Not really. Most people get into lots of things when they're young. It could be super hero comics, sure. It could also be sports. It could also be fiction of any sort. It could be just about any leisure activity...bike riding, going to the beach, going to restaurants, board games, cooking.....all manner of activity. Assuming that because someone still enjoys something after years of enjoying it means that they MUST be in some kind of state of arrested development is painting with an incredibly broad brush that would pretty much include everyone everywhere.

Edited to clarify: I do think that nostalgia can be taken too far, and that it can possibly be unhealthy. But I think it would have to be a pretty extreme case to qualify.
 
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Dannyalcatraz

Schmoderator
Staff member
Supporter
Yes, that was part of my point. He's mistakenly attacking the medium rather than the genre. It would be like if he thought rap was violent and misogynistic, and therefore claimed music is violent and misogynistic. His opinion is clearly meant to be applied to the super hero genre rather than the comic book medium.

As for criticism of the super hero genre....I think that as with any genre, there will be examples of quality work, and examples of poor work. When super heroes are done poorly, it's often a case of the work being childish or overly simplistic or derivative. In that regard, I can at least understand his criticism. I don't necessarily agree with it, but at the same time, I've found myself reading a super hero comic and wondering what I was getting out of it. There's plenty of superhero material out there that's not saying anything new at all...not doing anything original or different. Not saying anything. But, those books are likely the first comics being read by some young kid, so in that sense, they don't need to do anything new. They just need to be about Batman or Spider-Man or whatever.

That kind of "default status" that most super hero stories have is what limits them. It doesn't allow change. Or at least, it doesn't allow lasting change.

Now, there are plenty of works involving super heroes that are able to avoid this, but it doesn't mean that the genre is above criticism, or that this one in particular doesn't have something to it.

As you seem to point out, even if he were going after a genre, his critque would be a flawed overgeneralization mistaking discrete instances & exemplars for the genre as a whole. Because just like in your chosen analogy to rap, there may really only be certain writers or individual storylines that are truly juvenile...and likewise on the other end of the bell curve, true works of literature on an individual writer’s or story’s instance. The same creators who make timeless works can also make utter crap, and vice versa.

No creative person is immune. Everyone has good days & bad. Making it personal: jewelry design is another hobby of mine. I have literally designed several individual pieces currently appraised over $50K, and others that are objectively worth more as scrap than as the assembled pieces they are. I keep them intact as a reminder of how BAD I can be if I don’t pay attention to thoughtful criticism.

TL;DR: in no creative outlet is the piece representative of the whole, at any scale. And anyone criticizing a creative genre in general level and not specific instance is most probably committing a grave error.
 

doctorbadwolf

Heretic of The Seventh Circle
Yes, that was part of my point. He's mistakenly attacking the medium rather than the genre. It would be like if he thought rap was violent and misogynistic, and therefore claimed music is violent and misogynistic. His opinion is clearly meant to be applied to the super hero genre rather than the comic book medium.

As for criticism of the super hero genre....I think that as with any genre, there will be examples of quality work, and examples of poor work. When super heroes are done poorly, it's often a case of the work being childish or overly simplistic or derivative. In that regard, I can at least understand his criticism. I don't necessarily agree with it, but at the same time, I've found myself reading a super hero comic and wondering what I was getting out of it. There's plenty of superhero material out there that's not saying anything new at all...not doing anything original or different. Not saying anything. But, those books are likely the first comics being read by some young kid, so in that sense, they don't need to do anything new. They just need to be about Batman or Spider-Man or whatever.

That kind of "default status" that most super hero stories have is what limits them. It doesn't allow change. Or at least, it doesn't allow lasting change.

Now, there are plenty of works involving super heroes that are able to avoid this, but it doesn't mean that the genre is above criticism, or that this one in particular doesn't have something to it.

Eh, that criticism is broadly applicable enough that it's functionally worthless, IMO, unless applied to a specific work, creator, studio, etc.

Fantasy novels, sci-fi, television, movies, table top games, video games, music of pretty much any genre, whatever. It can all be said, with equal accuracy and thus equal uselessness, to be childish and unsophisticated.
 

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