D&D 5E Why FR Is "Hated"
Yaarel
He Mage
@Shasarak and @Azzy
You are kinda proving my point about ‘D&D peer pressure’ to pretend to ‘worship’ ‘gods’.
If I told you, I hate Kobolds. I imagine your response would be something like. Thats nice. I dont care.
But when I say, I hate polytheism. You guys seem as if unable to stop yourself from launching into some kind of reallife culture war about issues that I couldnt care less about.
I enjoy D&D without ‘gods’.
I watch televisions shows where polytheism is irrelevant. I want to play games where it is irrelevant too.
You are kinda proving my point about ‘D&D peer pressure’ to pretend to ‘worship’ ‘gods’.
If I told you, I hate Kobolds. I imagine your response would be something like. Thats nice. I dont care.
But when I say, I hate polytheism. You guys seem as if unable to stop yourself from launching into some kind of reallife culture war about issues that I couldnt care less about.
I enjoy D&D without ‘gods’.
I watch televisions shows where polytheism is irrelevant. I want to play games where it is irrelevant too.
I dont care who you worship, you just seem like you got a 80s Jack Chick vibe going on there.
I wish DnD peer pressure worked on getting people to use deodorant.
Demetrios1453
Hero
No one would care if you ran or played in a game with a monotheistic theme, or one where there are no gods and where clerics get their powers from philosophies or ideas. I daresay most of those here have participated in such campaigns.
However, it does seem, as Shasarak says, that you are giving off a rather strange vibe, most notably by your use of scare quotes around "gods" and so on. It's as if, to use your own example, you started talking about "kobolds" in quotes. Say, to use your own example from a few posts back, to talk about kobolds: "The D&D peer pressure to pretend to ‘fight’ these beings as ‘monsters’ ranges from nonstarter to offensive". It's just odd-sounding; yes, we all know these are all fictional constructs, so we don't need the additional quotes around them to reinforce that.
And, if you truly couldn't care less about said issues, why bring them up in the first place, or continue to post about them?
cbwjm
Seb-wejem
This is an idiosyncrasy of Yaarel that they are vehemently opposed to anything with gods. They bring it up at every opportunity and it is just one of those things you have to learn to ignore.No one would care if you ran or played in a game with a monotheistic theme, or one where there are no gods and where clerics get their powers from philosophies or ideas. I daresay most of those here have participated in such campaigns.
However, it does seem, as Shasarak says, that you are giving off a rather strange vibe, most notably by your use of scare quotes around "gods" and so on. It's as if, to use your own example, you started talking about "kobolds" in quotes. Say, to use your own example from a few posts back, to talk about kobolds: "The D&D peer pressure to pretend to ‘fight’ these beings as ‘monsters’ ranges from nonstarter to offensive". It's just odd-sounding; yes, we all know these are all fictional constructs, so we don't need the additional quotes around them to reinforce that.
And, if you truly couldn't care less about said issues, why bring them up in the first place, or continue to post about them?
Demetrios1453
Hero
Noted, and filed for future reference!
Yaarel
He Mage
The scare-quotes are an acknowledgement that this is a game of pretend. There is no actual worship.
Even so, I have more enjoyable ways to find entertainment than a game that refers to pretending to worship gods. It is inane.
Other editions of D&D were no problem. 1e and 2e were freeform homebrew. In 3e, philosophical Clerics were normal. Also strong support for homebrew.
4e got annoying with regard to the Cleric class specifying polytheism.
5e is a killjoy.
I respect 5e mechanics. It would be nice to have a ruleset that whose setting I can stomach.
Even so, I have more enjoyable ways to find entertainment than a game that refers to pretending to worship gods. It is inane.
Other editions of D&D were no problem. 1e and 2e were freeform homebrew. In 3e, philosophical Clerics were normal. Also strong support for homebrew.
4e got annoying with regard to the Cleric class specifying polytheism.
5e is a killjoy.
I respect 5e mechanics. It would be nice to have a ruleset that whose setting I can stomach.
In 2e many demonlords were deities. In 4e they all were primirdials only slightly weaker than the deities
Chaosmancer
Legend
I will admit, I’m kind of confused by your statement.
How is having a religion making the races less “exotic”? I’ll fully own up to ending up with more “monocultures” for my races (it’s a shortcut I’m ashamed to have taken, but I make myself feel better by imagining that things are more complex off screen) but having a unique faith system helps make them different from humans.
Humans, in my homebrew, are the most classically religious of the races. They have 13 major deities (currently) and a host of minor deities that may only be worshipped in a unique local area. They build elaborate chapels and “The Church” is a big concept for them.
Dwarves fall a bit closer to what I envision is Roman Catholcism. They have two deities, Moradin who crafted them and his Wife, while the rest of the “pantheon” is filled with “saints”. Dwarves or “Firstborn” who achieved great things or where punished and serve as divine messages and warnings. Making things is a big deal for Dwarves, it is a religious excersise, but most of the things they make end up in a treasure hoard devoted to Moradin, so he can look upon their works.
Orcs are vicious and warlike, but that is because they follow Gruumsh who laid down the laws of their people, they are tribal and strength rules, but I’ve also greatly toned down their “EVIL” vibe because I prefer just taking half-orcs and making them orcs, and worship of their gods takes the form of more devoting a hunting trophy or building a small shrine in the middle of the village.
Elves are more about training and discipline, and they don’t really have temples or shrines as much as they have monasteries and meditation techniques.
Dragonborn never call upon their gods, for their gods represent primal good and evil, it is more like the Chinese philosophy of Yin and Yang, they exist and effect the world, but you don’t call upon them or worship them, you acknowledge them and try to find personal balance.
I’m glossing over, but adding a faith system that is different from the human base makes them different. And, frankly, most intelligent species in DnD are going to be some version of humanity. We can’t do something too exotic or foreign to our own senses.
And, I also switch things up occasionally with different types of beings. Trolls are literally tiny pieces and sort of clones of Vaprak, who is a demon lord, and they don’t worship him. Minotaurs are created through cults of Baphomet, so they worship him, by continuing the same bloody rites that created them.
It’s all different in a way, but the more I type the more I think this isn’t what you are referring to. What kind of exotic races should be more exoctic? I’m partial to elves as plants and dwarves as beings of stone and metal, but that’s not exactly something I could homebrew and I doubt my players would be happy, they’re looking for some more traditional bodies at the very least.
Do you mean a single whisper from the mods or a single whisper from people saying this exact same thing.
Cause I think you are like the 3rd or 4th person to say this, and we did have a few mods stop by early on.
ROFLOL
Ok, to recap. I said there should be no conflict between the churches beyond mortal politics and genial competition (because everyone needs followers and so each church will try and entice people to join)
And you said you disagree, they have nothing to fight over so they won’t end up fighting.
Are you agreeing with me or disagreeing? And is you actually do disagree, do you think that two powerful forces like the High Priest of Torm and the High Priest of Mystara won’t end up in political situations where one tries to get an advantage from the King over the other? Perhaps in the allocation of taxes towards a project that could be significant.
I mean, people are people. Once a government exists and powerful people exist, powerful people are going to get involved in politics to one degree or another. It has nothing to do with the religion and everything to do with the locals and the land.
What do you mean by the bolded? I don't understand that statement clearly and would like to before I respond.
For the majority of the evil gods I have come across, they could be easily replaced by either the Demon Lords or the Archdevils. We could argue mechanics or power levels but this is mostly about the narrative niche. You come across an order of assassins who worship a dark otherworldly master who demands they kill in his honor. Does it matter if the group follows Bhaal or Yeenoghu, both are blood-thirsty other worldly beings who would demand murder from their followers. Yeenoghu is admittedly more about also desecrating the corpses, but Bhaal’s belief looks like it also condones leaving a massive mess behind to make the murder more appealing.
How about a group of necromancers serving a dark lord to bring about an age of undeath and terror. Nerull or Orcus could both work here, though I admit I don’t know Nerull’s stance on the Undead.
A god of Madness and Lies, Demogorgon fits that decently well doesn’t he?
God of Tyranny, Asmodeus.
God of Torture, Graz’zt can hang with that, or maybe pull in Glasya
The narrative niche that these gods fill in the campaign, could be easily filled by any number of the Demon Lords or Archdevils. The only thing you may potentially lose is the cleric spell list, and that’s only if you are a real stickler about it, which it looks like 5e is not.
I gave the reasons(or at least some of them) in the post right before this one.
Yeah, you said “That’s not his job” and “The company that makes the game said everyone has a purpose so the Gods aren’t going to do that”.
Neither is a satisfactory in-world answer, not really. The Demons and Devils are expressly portrayed as the enemies of the gods, often desiring to tear down the heavens and destroy everything that has been made and either dance on the ashes or remake it in their image.
And the gods are just cool with letting them be? If the gods are as powerful as you say it would take them minutes to destroy these serious threats, but they don’t.
If we say “AO seeks balance in the cosmos” this isn’t balance. You can’t call a fight between “the heavy weight champion of the world” and “the middle school champion of the county” a fair and balanced fight just because the ref chained the World champ’s arms to his back and told him he can’t throw a punch. If AO sought balance, they would be equal in power.
It can’t be those individual powers can’t be killed, because they are often plotting to kill each other and many have died in the past. The Thrones have changed hands, and could change hands again so why don’t the deities who reside in these realms just take over and tell everyone to call them the boss. If Lolth is so much more powerful than all the demon lords, why doesn’t she tell them to call her mistress, lick her boots, and work for her plans? If they refuse, kill them until she finds a demon lord willing to listen.
So, if they don’t destroy the demon lords and devils because WoTC says they don’t…. it is just a crappy set-up and we’re supposed to ignore it. When, instead, you could make them equals or near equals and then none of this is a problem. Neither side is certain of victory, so they use catspaws, look for weaknesses and gather strength until the day of the true battle comes and this is all hashed out.
This statement concerns and confuses me.
I’ve never noticed the D&D community to try and peer pressure people into one belief system or another, and I’ve never come across people who tried to worship the D&D deities if that is what you are talking about.
Heck, talk of real world religions is implicitly avoided at our table because I have friends who range from crossing themselves and saying a quick prayer in latin before making important rolls to a guy who claims to worship Odin to a guy who dislikes all organized religion and prefers modern philosophies.
None of that matters in the game world though, so we don’t bother talking about it. I think, reading your next post, the reaction to you hating Polytheism is more about the implied “my world is monotheistic”. For my table, a monotheistic DnD world would immediately start having the church compared to Christianity and there could be a lot of potential problems and pitfalls that would get in the way of the actual story.
I don’t mind debating about real life religion, but not in the middle of the game and not because of something stupid like the church asking you to attack a demon cult and someone made a stupid Salem reference.
For most of the people who play D&D, Polytheism is not a component of their real lives, so it is a safe way to tell stories involving faith and having forces in the world like churches without having to worry about dealing with the real world issues that tend to crop up. If you are able to avoid that problem, kudos to you man, but that is a can of worms I’d like away from my table because it could get involved fast, and I’m sure other tables are even more potentially volatile.
Kudos, but you missed a pair of your Quotation marks.
For me, it isn’t about “pretending to worship gods” its about exploring the character. What does it mean to be a person of faith? How is the worship of a deity tied into normal everyday lives of the people in this world?
It was interesting I made a half-orc who was not going to be a very religious individual, but he quickly ended up with quite a few prayers being said to honor the dead we came across. It reminded me of the saying that goes something like “there are no non-believers in the foxhole” referencing the trench warfare of WWI.
I find the narratives fascinating, and exploring different types of belief systems and how they change the way the world is perceived is equally interesting for someone who wants to be a fantasy author.
All while avoiding the potential problems of referencing real-life religion, which has the potential to blow up in my face.
