5E musings

Upper_Krust · Nov 29, 2016

Hey Khisanth amigo,

apologies for the slow reply...

Khisanth the Ancient said:
Definitely that's a broader, underlying issue... but what I was talking about was the more specific problem of if you're going to allow for potentially unlimited levels in limited page space, it gets spread kind of thin with 'bonus feat every X levels', class features getting relegated to Epic Feats (Improved Spell Capacity and all the Improved [Class Feature] feats, Rage feats, (whatever) Strike feats etc.

Plus you need a heck of a lot of feats/abilities to keep things interesting.

Also, you need some benchmarks set by which to scale everything else. That doesn't necessarily rule out unlimited progression in itself, but 3E ELH didn't really do that (though Ascension/Epic Bestiary did for beings with Divine Templates or equivalents like Akalich).

You could say I had the benefit of hindsight but establishing things within easily identifiable tiers was something the ELH maybe didn't need to do because it didn't go high enough.

I'm thinking going to level 30 for epic mortals/hero- or quasi-deities/etc. (Equivalent of 3E Epic or 4E Epic Destinies) is about right. "Canonically" Demogorgon is CR 26 and Tiamat is CR 30 (outside their home planes anyway). If Tiamat is a Lesser Deity/Power that puts a Greater one pretty much in the range of a difficult/epic fight for a lvl 30 party.

I think you have to understand the demographics to realise why there are not hundreds of epic PCs all about the place. If each level only has half as many 'people' as the previous one then Level 20 is 1 in a million and level 30 is one in a billion.

EDIT: Beyond level 30 would then be in the range of full on divinity (or equivalent status like a 4E primordial).

I think there is going to be some sort of 'bleed' between the two but I guess we could do that with Prestige Classes/Paragon Paths etc.

Khisanth the Ancient · Dec 2, 2016

Upper_Krust said:
Plus you need a heck of a lot of feats/abilities to keep things interesting.

Well yeah, it's kind of a chicken and egg problem. Unlimited advancement means a need for tons of abilities, but limited page space (and maybe ideas) led to the ELH just dumping a lot of that into bonus feats and epic feats being a lot of "better class feature X". There was some really cool stuff, but the foundation was somewhat shaky.

You could say I had the benefit of hindsight but establishing things within easily identifiable tiers was something the ELH maybe didn't need to do because it didn't go high enough.

Maybe, but I think real benchmarks would have helped the ELH a lot. Maybe not in a 4E tiering way, but some clear sense of "characters can do X at level Y" would have helped out stuff like Epic Spellcasting (awesome ideas, messy implementation) a lot. If they'd sat down and said "A DC X epic spell is roughly equivalent to a 9th level spell plus Y levels of metamagic", we wouldn't have got stuff like epic damage spells being much worse than high level normal ones except at really high DCs.

Similarly for the weird lack of integration with the Deities and Demigods rules, and Artifacts not being integrated with Epic Items....

I think you have to understand the demographics to realise why there are not hundreds of epic PCs all about the place. If each level only has half as many 'people' as the previous one then Level 20 is 1 in a million and level 30 is one in a billion.

Maybe, but IMO that sort of thing needs to be world specific.

I mean Athas probably has only a few million people, yet there's a ton of epic characters around (frankly the Order is just ridiculous).

Whereas Krynn (at least in the original Dragonlance setting) had very few high level characters and no really 'epic' ones despite having a much larger population... in 1E Dragonlance Raistlin needed special divine exceptions to hit 20th level.

And didn't Mystara/Known World have one nation with 1,000 36th level spellcasters or something like that?

OK, that's mixing editions with somewhat different level scaling, but still...

I think there is going to be some sort of 'bleed' between the two but I guess we could do that with Prestige Classes/Paragon Paths etc.

Well IMO all of epic levels would be kind of a transition into either divinity or some other beyond-mortal status. I mean 17th-20th level characters, in 5E terms, are already world shaking legendary figures.

Upper_Krust · Dec 12, 2016

Hey Khisanth amigo!

Khisanth the Ancient said:
Well yeah, it's kind of a chicken and egg problem. Unlimited advancement means a need for tons of abilities, but limited page space (and maybe ideas) led to the ELH just dumping a lot of that into bonus feats and epic feats being a lot of "better class feature X". There was some really cool stuff, but the foundation was somewhat shaky.

I dunno I think I had a good mix of extensions and new ideas. To be honest I don't see how I could have done the feats/abilities better (assuming unlimited progression).

...now the Portfolios... I could have done them much better.

Maybe, but I think real benchmarks would have helped the ELH a lot. Maybe not in a 4E tiering way, but some clear sense of "characters can do X at level Y" would have helped out stuff like Epic Spellcasting (awesome ideas, messy implementation) a lot. If they'd sat down and said "A DC X epic spell is roughly equivalent to a 9th level spell plus Y levels of metamagic", we wouldn't have got stuff like epic damage spells being much worse than high level normal ones except at really high DCs.

Similarly for the weird lack of integration with the Deities and Demigods rules, and Artifacts not being integrated with Epic Items....

In fairness to those designers I got the impression they had never role-played at extremely high levels and were creating a system because they were told to create one rather than because they wanted to create one.

Maybe, but IMO that sort of thing needs to be world specific.

I mean Athas probably has only a few million people, yet there's a ton of epic characters around (frankly the Order is just ridiculous).

Whereas Krynn (at least in the original Dragonlance setting) had very few high level characters and no really 'epic' ones despite having a much larger population... in 1E Dragonlance Raistlin needed special divine exceptions to hit 20th level.

And didn't Mystara/Known World have one nation with 1,000 36th level spellcasters or something like that?

OK, that's mixing editions with somewhat different level scaling, but still...

True but very harsh worlds (like Athas) could have a higher minimum threshold, whereas a reasonably comfortable world (like Earth) might have a lower minimum threshold.

Well IMO all of epic levels would be kind of a transition into either divinity or some other beyond-mortal status. I mean 17th-20th level characters, in 5E terms, are already world shaking legendary figures.

I haven't studied 5E enough to accurately comment on that, but without making Epic/Immortal gaming unique in some way (ie. in our game with Worship Points) it becomes pointless to 95%+ of gamers. Its just the same with bigger numbers (and more annoying math).

Basic Tier = Adventuring
Paragon tier = Running a Stronghold
Epic Tier = Running a Country
Immortal Tier = Becoming a God; getting worshipped.

Khisanth the Ancient · Jul 7, 2017

I just bought Out of the Abyss and noticed something: The demon lords have lair actions listed, and their lairs are described as their Abyssal homes.

So Demogorgon/Orcus in the Abyss are "only" CR 26 - those aren't weakened Material Plane versions. (Demogorgon as fought in the adventure is weakened, but those effects are described in the adventure text, not the main statblocks.)

I am thinking therefore that for 5E we need a strong 'motivation' for going beyond 20th level. IE given that taking on Orcus in Thanatos is a plausible campaign-ending fight for a standard-rules 20th level party... what do epic characters do?

I'm thinking maybe start with Dark Sun and Mystara, where the epic and immortal characters are most completely integrated into the setting. PCs being able (in theory anyway - the 2E mechanics for becoming Advanced Beings were pretty absurd) to become Advanced Beings and Immortals were built into those settings, it wasn't just an add-on.

As opposed to, say, FR. FR is pretty high magic but Elminster and the Simbul etc. can still be fundamentally who they are without being more than 20th level.

Upper_Krust · Jul 10, 2017

Hey Khisanth amigo!

Khisanth the Ancient said:
I just bought Out of the Abyss and noticed something: The demon lords have lair actions listed, and their lairs are described as their Abyssal homes.

Okay, sounds interesting so far...do they actually describe the Abyssal Homes and who populates them?

So Demogorgon/Orcus in the Abyss are "only" CR 26 - those aren't weakened Material Plane versions. (Demogorgon as fought in the adventure is weakened, but those effects are described in the adventure text, not the main statblocks.)

I'm not familiar with the stats for Orcus and Demogorgon in 5E, but it makes sense to have them as End-game villains for standard progression games.

I am thinking therefore that for 5E we need a strong 'motivation' for going beyond 20th level. IE given that taking on Orcus in Thanatos is a plausible campaign-ending fight for a standard-rules 20th level party... what do epic characters do?

I suspect they don't want players becoming Epic level in 5E so they don't have to design Epic rules for that system.

I'm thinking maybe start with Dark Sun and Mystara, where the epic and immortal characters are most completely integrated into the setting. PCs being able (in theory anyway - the 2E mechanics for becoming Advanced Beings were pretty absurd) to become Advanced Beings and Immortals were built into those settings, it wasn't just an add-on

.

If you are just looking for motivation then surely that starts with the players themselves?

However, if you are wanting to play an epic 5E game then shouldn't you first consider what (epic) resources you have to run that game in the first place?

As opposed to, say, FR. FR is pretty high magic but Elminster and the Simbul etc. can still be fundamentally who they are without being more than 20th level.

The epic demographics should explain the frequency of epic characters in a given world. Worlds with lots of Empires tend to have higher numbers of high level (and potentially epic level) characters. Whereas places that are more a collection of (relatively smaller) countries do not.

I vaguely recollect that 20th-level characters were roughly 1 in a million, 30th-level were 1 in a billion.

Khisanth the Ancient · Jul 16, 2017

Upper_Krust said:
Okay, sounds interesting so far...do they actually describe the Abyssal Homes and who populates them?

The lair section has one paragraph of description, 2-3 lair actions they get, and 3 regional special effects for each.

It doesn't list their servants/minions/populations though.

The Demon Lords Appendix has 2 pages for each demon lord with description (3-5 paragraphs), illustration, stat-block, lair, and special madness effects. Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb'luu, Graz'zt, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu, , and Zuggtmy are included.

If you are just looking for motivation then surely that starts with the players themselves?

Maybe motivation wasn't the word I wanted. What I was trying for was more like, what would epic mean in 5E? What kinds of powers would you have, what kind of adventures, what kind of opponents etc.

It's not quite equivalent from edition to edition. For example - in 4E balors are epic tier, level 27 elite or something (don't own the 4E MM, just the PHB, but I think that's close to right). In 5E Balors are CR 19. In 5E teleportation is more limited than 3E but not as much so as 4E,

I vaguely recollect that 20th-level characters were roughly 1 in a million, 30th-level were 1 in a billion.

I don't know that published settings really reflect that though. I doubt any of the single-planet settings (IE not spelljammer/planescape) have even 1 billion people, that's industrial-age population levels (Earth hit one billion around 1800). Toril seems late medieval with some early modern elements, so 500 million or so for all PC races combined seems reasonable. Less disease due to healing magic is probably balanced out by the resources/land taken up by monsters. Most of the other worlds would be less.

Upper_Krust · Jul 16, 2017

Hey amigo!

Khisanth the Ancient said:
The lair section has one paragraph of description, 2-3 lair actions they get, and 3 regional special effects for each.

It doesn't list their servants/minions/populations though.

Naturally, that would have required them to put some thought into the synergy between the Lords and the Minions.

The Demon Lords Appendix has 2 pages for each demon lord with description (3-5 paragraphs), illustration, stat-block, lair, and special madness effects. Baphomet, Demogorgon, Fraz-Urb'luu, Graz'zt, Juiblex, Orcus, Yeenoghu, , and Zuggtmy are included.

The madness effects sound cool. I would imagine the 'Lairs' are lesser than they should be. If each Realm is basically a WORLD, then the Lair should be some Metropolis of Demons.

Maybe motivation wasn't the word I wanted. What I was trying for was more like, what would epic mean in 5E? What kinds of powers would you have, what kind of adventures, what kind of opponents etc.

It's not quite equivalent from edition to edition. For example - in 4E balors are epic tier, level 27 elite or something (don't own the 4E MM, just the PHB, but I think that's close to right). In 5E Balors are CR 19. In 5E teleportation is more limited than 3E but not as much so as 4E,

Limited Teleportation means flying creatures (Pegasi, Griffons or even Dragons) will be more ubiquitous.

I don't know that published settings really reflect that though. I doubt any of the single-planet settings (IE not spelljammer/planescape) have even 1 billion people, that's industrial-age population levels (Earth hit one billion around 1800). Toril seems late medieval with some early modern elements, so 500 million or so for all PC races combined seems reasonable. Less disease due to healing magic is probably balanced out by the resources/land taken up by monsters. Most of the other worlds would be less.

You might be looking at things backwards. If your world only has a few million people (or less) then the most powerful heroes might only be Level 20 or less.

'EPIC' isn't simply a number, its a position in the world.

I remember in 1st Edition they noted that the Hero (deities) of one world might be 10th-level or 15th-level or whatever.

So the EPIC characters are the ones who are shaping the world around them. Whether that is as rulers or as 'super' heroes.

Khisanth the Ancient · Jul 17, 2017

Upper_Krust said:
I would imagine the 'Lairs' are lesser than they should be. If each Realm is basically a WORLD, then the Lair should be some Metropolis of Demons.

They're mostly described as a weird palace or city, with the exception of Juiblex and Yeenoghu who don't really seem to have actual structures.

It isn't terribly clear in some cases - I'm not 100% sure whether Orcus's lair is meant to be just the palace or the whole city of Naratyr (probably the palace, but Fraz-Urb'luu's is explicitly a whole city, so who knows), and Juiblex's entry seems to say that his lair is the entire Abyssal layer of the Slime Pits/Shedaklah, but that can't be right, especially as Zuggtmoy's lair is on the same layer.

Limited Teleportation means flying creatures (Pegasi, Griffons or even Dragons) will be more ubiquitous.

That makes sense.

You might be looking at things backwards. If your world only has a few million people (or less) then the most powerful heroes might only be Level 20 or less.

'EPIC' isn't simply a number, its a position in the world.

I remember in 1st Edition they noted that the Hero (deities) of one world might be 10th-level or 15th-level or whatever.

I agree with the principle, definitely. In my own 5E world there's one Lich on the whole planet and the leader of the most powerful Arcane organization is a 14th-level wizard.

But I was talking about reconciling general demographics rules with published settings. At least by the 3E ELH stats, Toril has several people in the 30th+ range (even higher if you count ECL, as Elminster, the Simbul etc. have the Chosen of Mystra template). Athas can't have more than a couple million humanoids but it's full of characters well above 20th level (Sorcerer Kings, the Order, etc.) The Sorcerer kings were 40th+ level (20 wizard, 20 psionicist, 1-10 dragon) originally but that doesn't convert to 40th+ level equivalent power in 3E terms, so who knows...

Upper_Krust · Jul 20, 2017

Khisanth the Ancient said:
They're mostly described as a weird palace or city, with the exception of Juiblex and Yeenoghu who don't really seem to have actual structures.

Yeenoghu is meant to have a mobile fortress (the size of a city) being pulled by millions of slaves across a wasteland layer.

It isn't terribly clear in some cases - I'm not 100% sure whether Orcus's lair is meant to be just the palace or the whole city of Naratyr (probably the palace, but Fraz-Urb'luu's is explicitly a whole city, so who knows),

The best outline of Orcus domain is just to get one of the Throne of Bloodstone modules on ebay or a pdf of it.

That said, a strike team (of PCs) will probably be able to bypass most of the outer city and at least get to the Palace (where presumably Orcus would have teleport inhibitor magic up and defenses like that making invaders fight their way through a gauntlet of traps and enemies to get to him).

and Juiblex's entry seems to say that his lair is the entire Abyssal layer of the Slime Pits/Shedaklah, but that can't be right, especially as Zuggtmoy's lair is on the same layer.

I always remember Juiblex was a Demon Lord allied/subservient to Zuggtmoy (Demon Princess*)..just saw that Gygax considered them brother and sister (link below).

*Arguably Demon Monarch and one of the 'Big Six' according to Gary Gygax:

Orcus, Zuggtmoy, Marduk, Demogorgon, Lolth & Graz'zt

https://web.archive.org/web/20151002111036/http://home.comcast.net/~chris.s/outer.html#abyss

I agree with the principle, definitely. In my own 5E world there's one Lich on the whole planet and the leader of the most powerful Arcane organization is a 14th-level wizard.

Okay, lower levels are easier to control.

But I was talking about reconciling general demographics rules with published settings. At least by the 3E ELH stats, Toril has several people in the 30th+ range (even higher if you count ECL, as Elminster, the Simbul etc. have the Chosen of Mystra template). Athas can't have more than a couple million humanoids but it's full of characters well above 20th level (Sorcerer Kings, the Order, etc.) The Sorcerer kings were 40th+ level (20 wizard, 20 psionicist, 1-10 dragon) originally but that doesn't convert to 40th+ level equivalent power in 3E terms, so who knows...

The demographics don't take immortals (such as liches) or very long-lived characters (like Elminster) into account. The demographics only determine those with natural lifespans.

As regards Athas I vaguely recollect they always played up the 'harshness' of the world and as a result everyone started at higher level - so that might have skewed the results there. Although logically people wouldn't start with more levels, they'd more likely evolve to suit the harsh environment (become more resistant to heat, require less water etc.)

Although I still say 'Humans' should have 3 Hit Dice before factoring levels.

Khisanth the Ancient · Jul 31, 2017

Yeenoghu is meant to have a mobile fortress (the size of a city) being pulled by millions of slaves across a wasteland layer.

I think that's been changed for 5E -- the description in Out of the Abyss says "Yeenoghu's lair in the Abyss is called the Death Dells, its barren hills and ravines serving as one great hunting ground, where he pursues captured mortals in a cruel game" and "there are few structures or signs of civilization on his layer of the Abyss".

They probably changed it because gnolls in 5E are really animalistic/berserk.

*Arguably Demon Monarch and one of the 'Big Six' according to Gary Gygax:

Orcus, Zuggtmoy, Marduk, Demogorgon, Lolth & Graz'zt

https://web.archive.org/web/20151002...ter.html#abyss

Wow...Interesting, I always assumed Zuggtmoy and Juiblex were the weakest demon lords since their main attentions were focused on mindless creatures rather than either gathering souls from the Material worlds or conquest within the Abyss.

(In 5E, Baphomet, Fraz-Urb'luu, Juiblex, and Zuggtmoy are CR 23; Graz'zt and Yeenoghu are CR 24; Demogorgon and Orcus are CR 26.)

The demographics don't take immortals (such as liches) or very long-lived characters (like Elminster) into account. The demographics only determine those with natural lifespans.

OK-but is there a formula for those?

And how do different natural lifespans (human/half-orc vs elf/dwarf) affect it?