When Fantasy meets Medieval Europe

Celebrim said:

My fundamental problem is not that you couldn't do D&D in a very close pastiche of Medieval Europe. My fundamental problem is that you couldn't do a very close pastiche of Medieval Europe and also have D&D classes like cleric and wizard. Neither class captures in any fashion how the people of the middle ages perceived magic, and they perceived magic in that way precisely because things like clerics and wizards did not exist.

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This.

Aldarc said:

Heavy flavors of Augustine of Hippo there.

You may also want to check out the Leaves of Chiaroscuro. It's a 3pp setting for Fate Core. But it builds off the idea of an Italian Renaissance where magic (and other fantastical creatures) exists.

But from both a history of religions perspective and conceptual history perspective, I have some problems with the core assumption that Roman Catholic Christianity would be an outcome in a world where essentially (D&D) magic exists. One armed with only a cursory knowledge of both Christian theology and D&D magic would likely spot the issue fairly quickly, namely the Resurrection. Just about everything about Medieval Christianity is predicated on a particular view of reality that D&D's magic does not support.

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Lucky thing then that the Resurrection didn't happen in 1100 AD, there are people who both believed it happened and those that didn't and as a DM I don't have to resolve this issue. There are three main religions in this setting, one of those, Christianity, believes there was a Resurrection, the other two, Jews and Muslims do not, and I can present all three viewpoints and yet have the clerics of all three religions still receive spells from God when they pray, it is not a big issue unless I set the campaign at a time when Christ lived, but I'm not going to do that! The Bible says Christ ascended into Heaven after he was resurrected, and that's fine with me, because I don't have Christ make personal appearances in my campaign either, that way Jews and Muslims don't get offended, and the clerics they play still receive their spells in this campaign, as do the Clerics of pagan religions by the way, whatever their are left in the continent of Europe.

Officially, this campaign takes place in a parallel prime material plane in the multiverse, this one happens to be a semi-historic echo with standard D&D magic, it exists in a parallel plane where their is life on Mars and Venus as well. Venus is a Swamp/Jungle world with humans, dinosaurs, and other prehistoric and non-prehistoric monsters. It is a more primitive and primeval version of Earth, where the Goddess Venus is a major deity maintaining the place and keeping it habitable. Since it exists on the same prime material plane as this Earth that I'm detailing here, one from Earth can teleport to it.


This is a global map of Venus with place names that I am using, but this is not what Medieval astronomers from Earth see, they see a bright white morning and evening star, all this continental detail is shrouded by the planets perpetual cloud cover, and only a even telescope can resolve Venus into a featureless disk. Venus uses most of her finite power to maintain this cloud cover over the entire planet, to protect it from the overly intense Sun's rays at its closer proximity to that star. She has been doing this for a while now, the worship of the inhabitants of this planet are what maintain her and which keep her from going dormant like most of the other gods of Olympus.


The surface of Mars looks something like this when viewed though a telescope, though of course it is not spread out over a flat map when viewed through the eye piece, but this shows the surface details of the planet. One can aim for the land when teleporting there, what one will find is anyone's guess as the telescope doesn't resolve this detail, a crystal ball might. Mars has forests near its bodies of water, but over all, its largely a desert planet. There are humans and other races here. I imagine some Earth wizards may have teleported here and to Venus. The first time teleporting to Venus, one lands in a random spot that stands a good chance to be an ocean surface. Venus' oceans are filled with sea monsters, so that is not the safest place to swim. Once one has teleported there for the first time, the spell caster can remember the place and teleport there again with some knowledge of where he is going.

Venus also has a giant gate to a parallel plane of existence where Venus has a carbon dioxide atmosphere, and lowed down it is a high pressure heat oven where the clouds above are made of sulfuric acid droplets, this would be the World Venus would become if not for the Goddess' powers to maintain it.

Celebrim said:

My fundamental problem is not that you couldn't do D&D in a very close pastiche of Medieval Europe. My fundamental problem is that you couldn't do a very close pastiche of Medieval Europe and also have D&D classes like cleric and wizard. Neither class captures in any fashion how the people of the middle ages perceived magic, and they perceived magic in that way precisely because things like clerics and wizards did not exist.

D&D spell-casting classes are increasingly self-referential tropes. They work as game elements. They can work as verisimilitude to narrative if you sand off the details. What they don't work as is simulations of anything but D&D, and pretty much as soon as you start doing this detailed world-building to create a pastiche Medieval Europe you've launched yourself into high simulation. And if you do that, it's only going to be internally consistent if you get rid of most D&D classes and come up with something that fits the setting more perfectly - theurgists, miracle workers, natural philosophers, goetists and magicians - none of whom are really going to regularly have access to the splashy sort of power associated with D&D spell-casters and none of whom are going to neatly separate themselves from occult or religious concerns.

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I'm not a purist, and I don't care what medieval people thought and believed, to the extend that I can mold this D&D setting to their beliefs without changing the classes or how magic works, I will. Basically I am substituting this historic setting for something comparable to the Forgotten Realms. So this World is basically a hybrid between a Standard D&D World an a historic simulation. the medeaval people who live in this setting have basically got to adjust their beliefs to fit in and deal with Wizards, Druids, Clerics, Paladins, Bards, Rangers, and various races such as elves, dwarves, halflings, gnomes, orcs, and other intelligent and non-intelligent monsters sharing their world. That is where the fun is at, I am not here to educate players about medieval history, but I am using it as a guide to shape this world's politics and believes, but not to the extent of changing classes and magic to fit a believed Medieval setting.

I saw a book about Middle Earth which uses a version of 5e D&D, it is a low magic setting, lower magic than what I propose here. This Medieval Earth has standard magic, the year is 1100 AD, future years don't have to follow history, the future from this point on is unknown, and of course magic and monsters will affect it.

There is a character named Genghis Khan or Chinggis Khaan[note 3] (born Temüjin,[note 4] c. 1162 – August 18, 1227), he isn't born yet, but his people do exist in this setting, as they are off the map, they are a bunch of orcs instead of humans. Someone named Genghis Khan might not ever be born in the future history of this setting, but someone like him may be, and perhaps even sooner than history books say. if they invade Europe they will do so on the backs of large worgs instead of the small ponies the Mongols rode on, this is more formidable, but the Europeans will also have magic to defend themselves with so things may balance out.

Aldarc said:

Heavy flavors of Augustine of Hippo there.

You may also want to check out the Leaves of Chiaroscuro. It's a 3pp setting for Fate Core. But it builds off the idea of an Italian Renaissance where magic (and other fantastical creatures) exists.

But from both a history of religions perspective and conceptual history perspective, I have some problems with the core assumption that Roman Catholic Christianity would be an outcome in a world where essentially (D&D) magic exists. One armed with only a cursory knowledge of both Christian theology and D&D magic would likely spot the issue fairly quickly, namely the Resurrection. Just about everything about Medieval Christianity is predicated on a particular view of reality that D&D's magic does not support.

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Lets just suppose this world was created on the apparent date of January 1, 1100 AD on what would be Greenwhich mean time on the Julian calendar. People are created with memories of a historic past, with these fantastic creatures and magic included in their memories so it seems as if nothing strange. Magic does change things from this point forward however. What's over the horizon in the New World is different. About two weeks later after that the first ship with elven explorers crosses the ocean and discovers Europe. The Elves memories are shaped similarly in that they have a fictional elven past with a fictional elven history, but somehow only now they got the idea to cross the Atlantic ocean and see what is there, and they found humans! They knew about dwarves, halflings, gnomes, and orcs for some time, but humans are something new for them, and they don't quite know what to think yet, neither do the humans they meet.

The technological differences aren't so great that the elves quickly conquer the Old World, but the technology they do have is easily copied by the humans, they notice the shape of the sails on their ships as they enter port, and they figure out ways of building similar ships, and through trial and error they get their ships a few years later and are able to explore the New World as well. Australia is a land of Dragons and the dragon born, the dragons have a large wingspan and can fly a long distance, this is how they travel to other continents. First they are seen in Southeast Asia, then China, India and they make their way through the Middle East and into Europe.

[MENTION=6925649]Thomas Bowman[/MENTION]: Then my advice to you is enjoy researching European medieval history and riffing on it however you like to create whatever fantasy world you enjoy. Just don't share it on EnWorld, because sharing it will only bring your grief.

There is a lot of D&D material for historical/mythic-fantasy. TSR did historical sourcebooks for 2e; Green Ronin did some excellent sourcebook for historical time periods; many Dragon magazine articles explored themes of medieval history and religion. I remember one about Satan in a very early issue of The Dragon.

My current campaign is set in 1255 AD in Livonia, in the middle of a crusade between Catholics v Orthodox v pagans. So the game is all about not only religious war, but also Germans vs Russians vs Balts vs Swedes, and popes vs anti-popes, and emperors vs usurpers, and every nobleman vs their cousin vs the peasants vs outlaws. Oh yeah, and monsters and dungeons and stuff, but they all are tied more closely to the stories. Green humanoids are based on myth whenever possible, and bad people are more prominent. Orcs are the orcs from Beowulf—brutish men possessed by evil spirits. Goblins are the goblins from Labyrinth, Hobgoblins are the slaves of the fairy kings, Kobolds are greedy dwarflike misers in the hills, and the Bugbear is a creature in the woods that can slip in and out of shadows, that can smell fear, and will steal children. There are of course a lot more Baltic, Russian, and German monsters than English.

My game uses OD&D as a chassis, and there are not a bunch of spell-slinging wizards or clerics hanging around. Sure the pope has access to lots of spellbooks and powerful relics, but he's more a noble with a theocratic kingdom than a classic D&D cleric. Using a rules-light system allows for a lot of flexibility in how much magic influences the world. I have just three alignments (Law/Chaos/Neutral), and those who worship a monotheistic deity are Lawful, so that's the Catholics, Orthodox, Muslims, Jews, any Manichaeans who are still hanging around, and a handful of secret Atenist cults. Most Christian heretics are lawful as well, including proto-protestants like the Waldensians, though Cathars/Bogomils are unique in that they are Neutral. Most magic, all elf/fairy cults, and the pagan religions that are based on them are Chaotic. Initiation into a cult/religion gives you an alignment—baptism/circumcision/khitan/wiccaning/pact/summon familiar—and regular ritual keeps your alignment stable—eucharist/shabbat/salat/esbat/etc.

Magic users can learn lawful spells from scripture, enochian magic from esoteric writings, natural magic from philosophical and alchemical treatises, fairy magic from elfish runes, sorcery from mystical grimoires, and goetia from demonic inscriptions. Any spell in the game is learnable by a magic-user, but the character's alignment will allow or disallow use of the spell. Clerics are warrior-priests who take monastic vows to gain their powers without needing books (paladins would fit this same role if they were in my game). It's possible to make a pact with a fairy, demon, angel, or pagan god, but that isn't a class feature as much as meeting one and convincing it to give you powers in exchange for favors.

So the game basically operates on the idea that what medieval people thought, that's what's more or less true. And I'm fine with some ambiguity/contradiction (my Syrian magic-user, Swedish Knight Templar, Dwarf, and elf-stolen barbarians all have different religious beliefs—are they right or not?). So yes, Saint Christopher was a giant jackel-headed saint, Saint George really did fight a dragon, spiders hid Saint Felix from Roman soldiers, etc. The Four Elements influence everything from alchemy to personality and health (if demons aren't messing with them), and relics, icons, and symbols are very important. Elfs are fairies and are feared/worshipped, so they can't be PC classes. But half-elves exist as changelings and fey-stolen humans. Halflings are children who can never grow up because they were stolen by elves. Dwarfs are dwarfs, and very rare and said to possess magical powers and the ability to create any thing.

It's working ok so far. It required a fair amount of research since I didn't know that much about which Russian Principalities survived the Golden Horde mostly intact, or when different regions of Latvia fell to the crusader armies, or how much insurgency was common at that time. I had to create a couple subsystem (and they're a work-in-progress) for the social estates, humourism, piety/cabalism, and supernatural pacts.

So tl;dr: historical/mythic fantasy can be a lot of fun. I wanted to make medieval religion make sense by aligning it with the alignment system. I also wanted to make sure the monsters were mythic/folkloric and there weren't nation-states of alien creatures (unless they were hidden; the Kingdom of Heaven is full of angels, the Fairies hold court in the fairy realm, there are goblins lurking in the Woods, etc). Don't be afraid to overturn apple carts. If someone wants to debate if Saint Cristopher really was Cynocephalic or not, that can be handled after the session. Also, know your audience. I'm a religion nerd, so a lot of my religion ideas aren't being used by my players who equate religion to eating broccoli.

Celebrim said:

[MENTION=6925649]Thomas Bowman[/MENTION]: Then my advice to you is enjoy researching European medieval history and riffing on it however you like to create whatever fantasy world you enjoy. Just don't share it on EnWorld, because sharing it will only bring your grief.

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Why is that? D20 Modern takes place in the "real world", sort of. in that world their are Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews, Buddists, Hindus and whatever. But there are also monsters and magic. So imagine D20 Modern taking place in the Middle Ages and Substituting D&D classes for the Modern classes. is that so hard? in the real middle ages, there was no magic, magic was just a bunch of stories and fairy tales. Why should actual magic back then have any relation to what stories were told around the fireplace? Just saying, if Magic is a real phenomenon, why should it hew to what people back then thought magic should be?

Thomas Bowman said:

Why is that?

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Because right now the griefers and the haters are busy distracted with another thread. But as soon as they get bored there or they succeed in locking that thread, they are going to come around here and notice this thread.

Okay, so you're creating an alternate version of Earth that exists on its own Prime Material Plane. You're using the Holy Roman Empire near the end of Henry IV's reign as your starting point. This puts the setting in the time period of the High Middle Ages. You want God and the Devil (or Satan) to exist but that "Capital G" Deity isn't meant to be any real world God(s) that is worshiped by Christians, Jewish people, or Muslims. Yet, that Deity stands in for God for those religions. Personally, I think you're going to end up with a lot of friction if any of your players are religious. (BTW, I'm Agnostic, but I grew up Christian.) Of course, it will depend on the players you select for the campaign. If you know them very well and have talked to them ahead of time, it probably will end up being okay. But if you recruit new players or select a group of players that might object, it could go very, very badly.

One suggestion I have is to give your fictional God a campaign specific name to separate the Deity from the God(s) of real world religions. Since this is the Holy Roman Empire, you could simply use a Latin word for God such as Deus or Divus. If those don't appeal to you, you can use Google Translate to pick something else. Of course, Satan is already a Latin word for the Devil, but you could also use either Diabolus or maybe even Antitheus. Or perhaps instead of saying worshipers of the Devil are satanists, say they are diabolists. It is similar but unique "gaming" enough that you won't have to deal with players cringing when 'sensitive' real world terminology comes up in-game.

Also you could use this Latin word for Christianity, Christianitas, to create a fictionalized version of the religion. Then again, you could also use the Latin word 'Nazarene' and call your in-game version of the Christian religion, Nazarenity (or maybe Nazarenitas). (Those might feel weird to use, but it's a good alternative if you want to truly fictionalize your alternate Earth.) You could do the same for Muslim (Latin: Musulmanus) and Judaism (Latin: Judaismus). Of course, all that might feel to forced for you and your players, but it might prevent any real world religious debates that could come up between you and your players.

Also, I'm assuming that when it comes to the Americas, your elves and halflings won't have any connection to Indigenous religious beliefs. Or am I wrong? Of course, your players might hear that elves are the 'natives' of North America and they'll play them as Indigenous Peoples of North America (likely with bad tropes attached). It something for you to consider when creating this setting. Let them know ahead of time that elves and the other races follow the norms for those races as presented in D&D, if that is your plan.

There is a books series you might want to read: Deryni Universe by Katherine Kurtz.

Thomas B - don't let [MENTION=4937]Celebrim[/MENTION] worry you too much. I'd amend his claims to be closer to, "If you post this on En World with the pretensions that you are an expert and that any and all criticisms can be brushed away" then you might have problems.

Otherwise, nobody is going to bother you in the slightest about this. We reap what we sow after all.