Core+1

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Again, not true. If the book I use is great at the time, but later on a superbook is introduced, other players that have not yet used their +1 have access to those elements for their PC - and I do not for mine. It will not be equal footing if the books are not equal.

That's not what I mean by equal. You seem really hung up on these issues of balance and equality rather than the concept I am getting at which has zero to do with those issues in the game.

I am talking purely about the perception of a new player approaching the game. Assume they know nothing. All they want to know is, in that very moment (not the future) if they buy into the game will they FEEL LIKE they're not far behind. Right then, as they enter the game.

Odds are once they get into the game these issues will go away. So future books are irrelevant, and the reality of balance and equality once actually playing is irrelevant. All I am addressing is the message in that moment to a new player about purely the perception of not being "behind".

It absolutely could meet the same goal, especially with an opening paragraph that states that the list was created for the very purpose of making sure that a new player would have a fun, competitive option that is ON EQUAL FOOTING with PCs that have access to other books while PRESRERVING AS MANY OPTIONS AS POSSIBLE (screaming is fun... wheee....) for all players.

Again, not the point. They don't want to hear about lots of options in that moment. That's not the theme of this edition anyway. And they're not going to read it in that moment either. They're saying to their friend or someone in the store "Hey, I am interested but I am worried about being behind and there seem to be lots of books" and the person can respond, "Don't worry, you can only use the Player's Handbook and one additional book of your choice anyway, like this latest one that just came out for example - nobody can use lots of books so nobody can fall behind or use some library of books". That's it. That's the moment of decision. None of the rest of this about preserving balance and preventing abuse and equality of footing and all that, none of it matters to that moment.

Now of course a more complicated system with such an intro paragraph could be phrased by a responder in that moment in an appealing way. But the more complex the answer the lower the odds the potential customer becomes an actual customer. This answer is super simple. Everyone gets it, and it's easy to understand. The complexities of the system you propose do not rival that simple answer.

The system you want is great for home play. It's what I use, it's what everyone I know uses other than those who play in AL. But, for the optics of selling to new customers at the game store, the system they came up with works best I suspect. Simple is far better for that point of sale pitch.
 
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On the AL-specific argument in this, a player does not even have to ever buy a book to play. AL is made so that you can make your character with the free Basic Rules and still have fun and not feel "left behind" by the other players. The rules do not even require you to own your +1 book. Compare that to Pathfinder Society, where a player is required to own every single book, either a physical book or a pdf with your email watermarked into it, for every single option they use for a character, even if it is one single spell or feat or whatever. Now, they may have changed this requirement in the couple of years since I abandoned all things Pathfinder, but I doubt it.
 

jgsugden

Legend
That's not what I mean by equal. You seem really hung up on these issues of balance and equality rather than the concept I am getting at which has zero to do with those issues in the game.

I am talking purely about the perception of a new player approaching the game.
Thank you for trying to frame the entire conversation and say only your concern matters, but there are other concerns.
Assume they know nothing. All they want to know is, in that very moment (not the future) if they buy into the game will they FEEL LIKE they're not far behind. Right then, as they enter the game.
And at that moment, being asked to IMPLY there is no problem because there is a Core +1 Rule rather than being TOLD EXPLICITLY that they've created rules tailored to avoid the problem is not going to be inherently better.

Odds are once they get into the game these issues will go away. So future books are irrelevant, and the reality of balance and equality once actually playing is irrelevant. All I am addressing is the message in that moment to a new player about purely the perception of not being "behind".
AGAIN, no. Not true. Irrelevant means no relevance, and it is quite relevant to some players that they are prevented from taking certain options because they chose the wrong +1.

Again, not the point.
Again, entirely my point.
They don't want to hear about lots of options in that moment. That's not the theme of this edition anyway. And they're not going to read it in that moment either. They're saying to their friend or someone in the store "Hey, I am interested but I am worried about being behind and there seem to be lots of books" and the person can respond, "Don't worry, you can only use the Player's Handbook and one additional book of your choice anyway, like this latest one that just came out for example - nobody can use lots of books so nobody can fall behind or use some library of books".
Or they can be told, "No problem. Use the PHB to make a character. If there is anything outside the PHB you want to us, just check this list. You don't need to worry about using anything outside the PHB now - it has plenty of options to get you started... you'll likely want to look at the other books after you get going."

That's it. That's the moment of decision. None of the rest of this about preserving balance and preventing abuse and equality of footing and all that, none of it matters to that moment.
BUT IT DOES FRIGGING BELL TOWER OF BUBBA GUMP matter. And, as I've repeatedly said, there are multiple ways to address your concern that do not hamper the long term options in the same way.

Now of course a more complicated system with such an intro paragraph could be phrased by a responder in that moment in an appealing way.
I'm glad we agree....
But the more complex the answer the lower the odds the potential customer becomes an actual customer. This answer is super simple. Everyone gets it, and it's easy to understand. The complexities of the system you propose do not rival that simple answer.
I disagree with the notion that someone with no context for the game is going to imply the benefits you perceive more clearly than if they are explicitly told, "We got you, Dude. Create away."

The system you want is great for home play.
It is unnecessary for home play where the DM can craft whatever limits they want.
It's what I use, it's what everyone I know uses other than those who play in AL. But, for the optics of selling to new customers at the game store, the system they came up with works best I suspect. Simple is far better for that point of sale pitch.
OK, put all that aside for a minute.

Bob walks in the door. Bob wants to play. Bob asks how to get started. Someone, magically, Bob implies that at the moment of character creation he is on a level playing field with everyone else because of the Core +1 rule. Bob makes a character and plays 2 sessions with his Hexblade. Then, Bob hears about Eliminster's Manual of the Planes being released. And it is FREAKING AWESOME. It has perfect stuff for his PC. And Bob is told, "Sorry, you can't use anything in it for your character... you chose Xanathar's as your +1."

Does Bob like that he is told he can't use it?
Does Bob feel like buying a book he can't use?
Does Bob feel like the game protected him with the +1 Rule, or that the +1 Rule screwed him?

Any argument about the simplicity of Core +1 being a great selling point can be countered by good marketing of whatever alternative system you propose.

In a very real sense: The rule, in and of itself, acknowledges it is a faulty approach. If simplicity is the ultimate selling point, why not go even simpler and make PHB the only option at level 1? Much simpler. Balanced for time and cost issues. Balanced for power gaming purposes. Heck, why not limit players to just the basic rules options? Even simpler!

Why? Because we want to allow options more than we want ultimate simplicity. We want players to be able to use these new materials, and a rule that fairly arbitrarily groups things and says, "Hey, right now, when you know little about the game, pick from one of these pools, or decide you want to wait to pick one later..." is a turnoff that worries new players. I've seen it at AL events. The question of, "Should I play an XGtE class or just a PHB one so that I can XXX later" does happen.

Summary:

There are options available that offer a better long term gaming experience with more options.

Any optics advantage for that brand new player are suspect because they require inference, and are countered by negative perceptions that might drive them from the game once they start.

Done.
 

...

Bob walks in the door. Bob wants to play. Bob asks how to get started. Someone, magically, Bob implies that at the moment of character creation he is on a level playing field with everyone else because of the Core +1 rule. Bob makes a character and plays 2 sessions with his Hexblade. Then, Bob hears about Eliminster's Manual of the Planes being released. And it is FREAKING AWESOME. It has perfect stuff for his PC. And Bob is told, "Sorry, you can't use anything in it for your character... you chose Xanathar's as your +1."

Does Bob like that he is told he can't use it?
Does Bob feel like buying a book he can't use?
Does Bob feel like the game protected him with the +1 Rule, or that the +1 Rule screwed him?

...

Excuse my ignorance as I've not played in AL, but assuming Bob's original character is now level 3 after 2 sessions, couldn't Bob then create a new, nearly exact character except utilizing the content of Elminster's Manual of the Plannes instead of Xanathar's? Or does one have to start their PC at level 1 in AL?
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Thank you for trying to frame the entire conversation and say only your concern matters, but there are other concerns.

Only my concerns matter when responding to someone who is answering my concerns, yes. You are free to talk about whatever you want and I am not here to stop you, but you might want to do it in response to someone else if that's what you want ME to be talking about.

And at that moment, being asked to IMPLY there is no problem because there is a Core +1 Rule rather than being TOLD EXPLICITLY that they've created rules tailored to avoid the problem is not going to be inherently better.

AGAIN, no. Not true. Irrelevant means no relevance, and it is quite relevant to some players that they are prevented from taking certain options because they chose the wrong +1.

Sure that's relevant to that question, but it's not relevant to the question I actually posed, which is "Will I FEEL BEHIND?" Again, all your arguments are realistic for once you start playing the game...they're just not relevant to the question of getting past that starting moment in deciding to buy into the game.

Again, entirely my point.Or they can be told, "No problem. Use the PHB to make a character. If there is anything outside the PHB you want to us, just check this list. You don't need to worry about using anything outside the PHB now - it has plenty of options to get you started... you'll likely want to look at the other books after you get going."

Which completely fails to address the issue. Consult this list concerning many other books sends the opposite message. The players are looking at lots of other books that moment and they want to be assured there will be no need to buy them all and telling them at some time in the future they will consult a list about how to buy other books is not the message you want to send. The message you want to send is "Nope, nobody can use more than two books, ever."

BUT IT DOES FRIGGING BELL TOWER OF BUBBA GUMP matter. And, as I've repeatedly said, there are multiple ways to address your concern that do not hamper the long term options in the same way.

I'm glad we agree....I disagree with the notion that someone with no context for the game is going to imply the benefits you perceive more clearly than if they are explicitly told, "We got you, Dude. Create away."

It is unnecessary for home play where the DM can craft whatever limits they want.OK, put all that aside for a minute.

Bob walks in the door. Bob wants to play. Bob asks how to get started. Someone, magically, Bob implies that at the moment of character creation he is on a level playing field with everyone else because of the Core +1 rule. Bob makes a character and plays 2 sessions with his Hexblade. Then, Bob hears about Eliminster's Manual of the Planes being released. And it is FREAKING AWESOME. It has perfect stuff for his PC. And Bob is told, "Sorry, you can't use anything in it for your character... you chose Xanathar's as your +1."

We know it's not mattering, once they start playing. Because sales numbers and playing numbers are at historic highs, and anyone who burns to use a different book plays a home game or starts a new character. ONCE THEY ARE HOOKED, PEOPLE DO WHAT THEY WANT. The only point I am addressing is the point of getting them hooked. We all know how crack works. The Core+1 isn't causing addicted crack addicts of D&D to quit the game...getting them to take the first hit of the game is really the only genuine barrier.
 

Bob walks in the door. Bob wants to play. Bob asks how to get started. Someone, magically, Bob implies that at the moment of character creation he is on a level playing field with everyone else because of the Core +1 rule. Bob makes a character and plays 2 sessions with his Hexblade. Then, Bob hears about Eliminster's Manual of the Planes being released. And it is FREAKING AWESOME. It has perfect stuff for his PC. And Bob is told, "Sorry, you can't use anything in it for your character... you chose Xanathar's as your +1."

Does Bob like that he is told he can't use it?
Does Bob feel like buying a book he can't use?
Does Bob feel like the game protected him with the +1 Rule, or that the +1 Rule screwed him?

Then Bob and the DM look at his character sheet and see that, since he has only played two sessions, his character is still under 5th level, so he can still freely rebuild his AL character as much as he wants, including changing his +1.

And even if it he is further along and is 5th level or above, he now has the chance to make a second character to make use of the new supplement, and experience even more D&D play, which is exactly what WotC and AL want their players to do.
 

Mistwell

Crusty Old Meatwad (he/him)
Excuse my ignorance as I've not played in AL, but assuming Bob's original character is now level 3 after 2 sessions, couldn't Bob then create a new, nearly exact character except utilizing the content of Elminster's Manual of the Plannes instead of Xanathar's? Or does one have to start their PC at level 1 in AL?

Yes you can re-do anything below level 5 anyway.
 

pogre

Legend
Thank you for trying to frame the entire conversation and say only your concern matters, but there are other concerns.

Your concerns, my concerns - both really do not matter. The concern of WOTC is to employ AL to get new players involved in D&D. From that basis they believe core +1 makes sense. I agree with them.

I would find it hard to imagine any concern that could possibly trump expanding the player base for the folks who make the game.
 

jgsugden

Legend
Yes you can re-do anything below level 5 anyway.
Yes, I should have said that he gets to level 6, etc...

And regardless, the underlying problem at the core is that he wants to play something and is told "NO." Not because it breaks the game. Not because it gives him an unfair advantage. Just because the features happen to be in separate books.

You can achieve all the benefits of the Core +1 system with a properly packed but more versatile system. There are a lot of options. It is an oversimplified system that annoys a lot of players needlessly.
 

Eltab

Lord of the Hidden Layer
For a new player (which I am not) to AL, PHB + 1 and the One Rebuild Before L5 rules combine nicely: I can start off with a character that will work and be effective. If I find something cool in a new book a few weeks / months / whenever, I can make the changes to put them on my existing character. By then, I'll have some experience under my belt and can decide if I want to rebuild my current character, or make a new one.

For a new and cash-strapped player in AL, he can make a PHB-only character which will be able to 'carry its own weight' and look over the books as he happens to find them, to decide if he DOES want to put cool new features on it.
 

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