D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

Maxperson · Oct 4, 2018

Hussar said:
Why didn't you initially describe that trap when you described the room? If I auto-succeed, why wasn't I told as soon as I could see it? And, note, an auto-success means that no matter what I rolled, I'd succeed anyway, so, again, it shouldn't make any difference whether I rolled or not.

Because it wasn't in plain sight, but as soon as you look behind the couch it's right there, plain as day. No roll required and not a part of the room description.

But, the player cannot ever determine that. The player never knows if an action is in doubt or not. If it wasn't in doubt, no matter what the roll was, it succeeded. If the climb DC is 5 and I have a +4 climb skill, it doesn't matter if I roll or not, I move half my speed up whatever it is I'm climbing.

Players also cannot initiate rolls in 5e.

Aldarc · Oct 4, 2018

Maxperson said:
Players also cannot initiate rolls in 5e.

Perhaps not de jure, but I find that this is not necessarily true per praxis. And I find that praxis tends to dominate tables, particularly when it comes to the other mantra of 5E: "rulings not rules."

Sadras · Oct 4, 2018

Aldarc said:
Perhaps not de jure, but I find that this is not necessarily true per praxis. And I find that praxis tends to dominate tables, particularly when it comes to the other mantra of 5E: "rulings not rules."

Smart argument

Imaculata · Oct 4, 2018

Aldarc said:
It is not that I want to tell the players when or what to roll. I want my players to engage the fiction. I want dice rolls to be interesting. I want them to describe what they are attempting. Describe what you are doing, then I (or "we" collectively) can decide what rolls, if any, are most appropriate. And for systems like PbtA and Fate, this often can lead to dice resolutions other than a simple pass/fail test. And these systems have influenced how I have subsequently approached running D&D.

Thanks for describing my reason for using this approach far better than I could.

I also want my players to immerse themselves in the situation, rather than constantly falling back on game mechanics. Yes, I know your character has a +10 bonus on any Search check, but what is your character trying to do, and how does he go about doing it? Lets focus on that first, and worry about a dice roll later. Besides, it means that your natural 20 is not being wasted on something that you were going to auto-fail or auto-succeed at any way. Lets reserve the dice rolling for an action where the DM considers the outcome uncertain.

Maxperson · Oct 4, 2018

Aldarc said:
Perhaps not de jure, but I find that this is not necessarily true per praxis. And I find that praxis tends to dominate tables, particularly when it comes to the other mantra of 5E: "rulings not rules."

Well, that applies to every rule.

At my table I had one person who was having the hardest time not initiating rolls. He's very into following the rules, though he gets that the DM can change them and is okay with rules changes. Finally, once 5e came out and we are going to switch over, he finished up the last 3-4 sessions of 3e campaign by saying that he was going to do things the "5e way" and just tell me what his PC was going to do. I smiled inside and said that was a good idea(as if I hadn't been trying to get him to do just that for the last X years).

iserith · Oct 4, 2018

Aldarc said:
My primary issue that I would see with what Imaculata describes, [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION], is what part of the game the players are attempting to engage.

My own preference here is a "fiction first" approach. This approach is common in games like Fate and Dungeon World (PbtA). In fact, I believe that the PbtA system developed, in part, as a reaction to the habit in 3rd Edition D&D era (and following) of players engaging skills before fiction. Vincent Baker wanted to break the habit of players saying "I roll for Perception," and instead engendering more Player: "I look for odd features in the stone work of the wall." / GM: "It sounds as if you are trying to Discern Realities. Roll."

It is not that I want to tell the players when or what to roll. I want my players to engage the fiction. I want dice rolls to be interesting. I want them to describe what they are attempting. Describe what you are doing, then I (or "we" collectively) can decide what rolls, if any, are most appropriate. And for systems like PbtA and Fate, this often can lead to dice resolutions other than a simple pass/fail test. And these systems have influenced how I have subsequently approached running D&D.

For me, it's even simpler: In D&D 3.Xe or 4e, the rules explicitly say or give examples of the players asking to make skill checks. In D&D 4e, the DM is outright encouraged to say "yes" when the players ask to make them. So, when I play D&D 3.Xe or 4e, I flat out tell the players they are free to ask to make skill checks. I had to do this when I ran a D&D 4e one-shot for my regular D&D 5e players who weren't used to that, having never played D&D 4e. I don't think it's particularly smart play to ask to roll a fickle d20 and I still require some kind of statement of goal and approach so I'm on the same page with what the player wants to do, but that's what the game calls for so I do it.

In D&D 5e, there is simply no support for players asking to make ability checks. It's solely discussed as being in the realm of the DM. At best, players can ask if a particular skill proficiency applies to an ability check the DM has already called for. I try not to let the assumptions, expectations, and approaches from one game bleed into other games. This makes for poor outcomes in my experience.

billd91 · Oct 4, 2018

iserith said:
In D&D 5e, there is simply no support for players asking to make ability checks. It's solely discussed as being in the realm of the DM. At best, players can ask if a particular skill proficiency applies to an ability check the DM has already called for. I try not to let the assumptions, expectations, and approaches from one game bleed into other games. This makes for poor outcomes in my experience.

Honestly, this is nothing more than a GMing style issue. There's no need for rule support at all. 4e's books included it to encourage the development of that style. That's all.

iserith · Oct 4, 2018

billd91 said:
Honestly, this is nothing more than a GMing style issue. There's no need for rule support at all. 4e's books included it to encourage the development of that style. That's all.

My "style" changes based on the game being played. It seems weird to me to run D&D 5e as if it was D&D 4e (for example).

billd91 · Oct 4, 2018

Imaculata said:
Let me illustrate with an example:

The players are in a dungeon, and they enter a room with (among other things) a pile of rubble in it. There is nothing in the pile of rubble, it is just dungeon decoration.

Tom: I search the pile of rubble! (Starts rolling Search check) 20!

DM: You find nothing of interest.

Tom: -But I rolled a 20!

All of this can be avoided if the DM is the one calling for a check, or in this case not-asking for a check. This also avoids situations where a player makes a skillcheck, when the DM wants him to make a different skillcheck, and cases where an action is going to auto-succeed.

What's the problem here? So the player made a good skill roll that didn't net him anything. So what?!?
And if the player jumped the gun and rolled the wrong check, all the DM has to do is ask for the right one.

This can also help the players focus more on stating an approach to their actions, rather than immediately throwing their dice before an action has been properly stated.

The player did say he was going to search the pile of rubble. How much more "approach" were you hoping for? That they got out a shovel or described digging through the pile with their hands?

iserith · Oct 4, 2018

billd91 said:
The player did say he was going to search the pile of rubble. How much more "approach" were you hoping for? That they got out a shovel or described digging through the pile with their hands?

Imagine that instead of there being nothing of interest in the rubble it is instead infested with rot grubs or covered with a contact poison. It would be helpful to know as DM whether the character is using a shovel or his or her hands, right?

D&D 5E What DM flaw has caused you to actually leave a game?

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

Aldarc

Legend

Sadras

Legend

Imaculata

Hero

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

billd91

Not your screen monkey (he/him)

iserith

Magic Wordsmith

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