Are Spells Balanced by Level?

mmadsen · Mar 7, 2002

In discussing ways to acheive a "low magic" feel (not really low, but that's another topic) on another thread, I recommended shifting around some of the spells to different levels -- and this brought the expected cries of "Game balance! You'll destroy the game balance!"

Really though, are the spells balanced as they stand now?

We all know certain spells are vastly more popular than other spells at the same level. So my first question is: Which spells have you found most popular (and powerful) at each level?

Second, Which spells have you found least popular (and powerful) at each level?

If you were already going to be modifying the game with extensive house rules, which spells might you bump up or down a level?

Now, when looking at some popular spells, I thought about new spells that might share the same basic mechanics but with totally different "special effects" (to use a Hero-system term). For instance, the popular 1st-level spell, Sleep, effectively kills 2d4 HD worth of enemies. The wizard doesn't have to slit their throats, but he could, and they're certainly out of the current fight. Would there be any problem with a 1st-level spell that turned 2d4 HD opponents to stone? Into toads? Or that cursed them (as with Bestow Curse)? Or left them feeble-minded and drooling like idiots?

Zerovoid · Mar 7, 2002

I think spells are balanced by level, but only relative to each other. On top of that, they are balanced rather poorly.

Some Popular Spells:
1st: Magic Missile, Shield, Mage Armor, Sleep
2nd: Web, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Invisibility, Rope Trick, Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, Endurance, Flaming Sphere, Melf's Acid Arrow
3rd: Fireball, Haste, Fly, Dispel Magic
4th: Polymorph Other

What makes these spells so popular? Shield and Mage Armor are simply must haves for a wizard. With them, you're tougher than fighters at low levels. Without them, you're dead.

Magic Missle and Fireball are reliable, scaling sources of damage. They stay good for a long time.

Flaming Sphere, Melf's Acid Arrow, Sleep: These are good because they do damage, but they don't scale very well. I wish there was a Greater Sleep, or something. Good when they are your highest level spell, otherwise not.

Bull's Strenght, etc, Haste, Fly: These add onto a character's abilities, so they can be used to make already powerful characters more powerful.

Web, Glitterdust, Alter Self, Invisibility, Rope Trick: I used to think 2nd level spells sucked, but that was because I was only thinking of Flaming Sphere, which is kind of lack-luster compared.

Polymorph Other: Its a buffing spell, a transportation spell, a disguise spell, and and instant death spell all in one. Probably the most powerful spell in the game. Even with all the errata, it should be like 6th level or something.

A sleep spell is not instant death, the guys you put to sleep will probably get kicked awake by their buddies in a round, if you don't stop them.

Another thing I've noticed is the DnD seems to have wierd ideas of what powerful means. Minor Creation, which can only create a small piece of cloth or something really lame, is higher level than fireball and magic missile. Fabricate is also higher level. This is to try and balance their effects on the DnD economy, but it doesn't make much sense. I know there are other examples, but I can't think of any. Spells in DnD make things that should be hard and take lots of power, ie, killing people with evocation spells, easy, and doing many mundane, less powerful seeming things is very hard.

PenguinKing · Mar 7, 2002

One could argue that the disparity is an attempt to simulate that it's a lot harder to create stable matter with magic than it is to pump out raw, uncontrolled energy - tho' I'm not sure how well the rest of the magic system bears up this assumption.

- Sir Bob.

P.S. Nih!

I'm A Banana · Mar 7, 2002

Sir Bob's got the right idea. It takes a lot of magical energy to actually, fully, 100% realistically CREATE anything.

It doesn't take a whole lot of magic power to hurt stuff.

Think about it this way: You can re-use a dagger, right? Throw it once, pick it up, toss it again. A one-time investment of a bit of gold, and you've got something you can use forever.

You can't re-use a Magic Missile. Throw it once, it's gone for good. You need to pump out the "cost" each time you do it. And because you have to pay for that, you can't pay for other stuff that would make you more valuable. How much good is your Magic Missile going to do you when trying to sneak into a citadel? What good's Fireball to someone who is trying to win allies in a war? What's so useful about a bolt of lightning if you don't have clothes?

you're tougher than fighters at low levels

Hey, guess what, Mr. Fighter, you're totally useless now! The mage is harder to hit and can do more damage! Yeah, he's first level!

(one hour later)

Hey, Mr. Fighter, we'd like you back. Turns out the mage is only good for so long and then goes *real* sour. You don't fall down after stubbing your toe on a rock, do you? You can do more than throw one magical dagger-thingy, right? Your armor and shield don't fade away in the thick of battle, eh? Nothing can really be dispelled, right? Yeah, 'cause our Mage tried to be a front-line fighter and he got friggin' MOPPED.

This is to try and balance their effects on the DnD economy,

First time I've heard this...and it sounds kinda way-out. I'm not sure much more than minimal thought was put into the D&D economy.

Plus, like I said above, making things go boom isn't hard. Anybody with gunpowder can do that. STAGE magicians do that. Whoop-dee-doo. Making something from nothing, now there's a challenge.

Anyhoo, about the topic: Sleep doesn't kill squat. They're asleep for what, a few rounds? And any loud noise wakes them up. Add to that the not-unreasonable possibility that they fail to go to sleep in the first place, and that those who do are woken up by the fighting or shouts of their friends...Sleep's got a lot of steps to go before it's a garunteed kill on anything. It's biggest barrier is that it usually doesn't work, at least not until you're a higher level, and then it only puts the weaker things to sleep, anyway.

That said, a 1st-level spell that, say, turned the same HD into frogs? Probably not a problem (ever try to catch a frog? Fuggin' tough to hit). To stone? Maybe a small problem (stone's a lot easier to sneak up to than sleeping babies). Feebleminded? Maybe.

The thing with sleep is that it's an easily solved and/or resisted condition. You make a loud noise, you are an elf, you are a bug, no problems. There's a big leap between takin' a few Z's, and getting your throat slit and/or being out of the fight.

mmadsen · Mar 7, 2002

What makes these spells so popular? Shield and Mage Armor are simply must haves for a wizard. With them, you're tougher than fighters at low levels. Without them, you're dead.

That brings up an unrelated issue: would it ruin the game to let Wizards wear armor without spellcasting penalties?

Magic Missle and Fireball are reliable, scaling sources of damage. They stay good for a long time.

I almost brought this issue up in my original post: what's the deal with scaling? Some spells have a different version at every level (Summon Monster I through IX), while others just get better at no additional cost. Is such scaling a sacred cow?

As you pointed out, some spells are great at the level they're introduced (e.g. Sleep), but after a few levels, other spells of the same level get much better. Is that good game design? Or is something we're all just used to?

Bull's Strenght, etc, Haste, Fly: These add onto a character's abilities, so they can be used to make already powerful characters more powerful.

Someone suggested the idea of a Bull's Strength (or Cat's Grace) that didn't add to your existing ability; it replaced it. That is, instead of +2 Str, it might give you Str 18. An interesting alternative.

Polymorph Other: Its a buffing spell, a transportation spell, a disguise spell, and and instant death spell all in one. Probably the most powerful spell in the game. Even with all the errata, it should be like 6th level or something.

No one of those effects is all that powerful, but it certainly has many uses. Perhaps it should be multiple spells? If you can only turn people into toads, it's fine for "instant death". If you can only turn them into raging bulls, it's much more of a "buffing" spell.

A sleep spell is not instant death, the guys you put to sleep will probably get kicked awake by their buddies in a round, if you don't stop them.

OK, it's only instant death if you put them all to sleep. At first level that's often the case.

kenjib · Mar 7, 2002

I don't think that minor creation is balanced based on principles of the amount of magical energy required to create stable matter or anything of that sort. The primary guiding logic behind D&D is mechanical balance. My guess is that the fear is that someone casting this spell over and over again every day for a year can make a lot of gold by selling the creations. Try several masterwork bows per day at 375 gp a pop, for example. They make the spell high level in order to make sure that the recommended treasure-per-level in the DMG is high enough that the economic impact of the spell will not be as significant - although it's still abuseable in this way if you think about it. Sure, there would be market limitations for offloading so many high quality weapons, and also the consideration of the number of wizards who have this capability, but indulge me and think like a munchkin for a minute here.

I think many of the non-combat spells are also incredibly powerful if considered in a more realistic situation. The balance seems geared mostly around how important the spells are to dungeon crawlers. Charm person, for example, is a very powerful spell when you consider the full implications of what you can do with it. Just imagine using in your real life a few times every day as you go about your business. Yikes! I find invisibility to also be very powerful - think of how in Lord of the Rings it is one of the most powerful magics in the entire story and think about why this is so.

Raise Dead at 5th level is also completely insane in my opinion. Bringing someone back to life should be a 9th level spell only in my opinion. It's one of the greatest feats that one could ever possibly accomplish - think Jesus. My goodness...even Jesus got the shaft!!!

I'm A Banana · Mar 7, 2002

OK, it's only instant death if you put them all to sleep. At first level that's often the case.

Sorry, dude, I just don't see it...DC of 10 + 1 (spell's level) + Int. modifier (+4 at most)....that's a DC of 15. Reasonable luck can avoid it, on at least one or two people. Something with a good Will save would be even better...and there's the whole "Well, it doesn't work on Undead or Vermin or Elves or..."

Sorry, I just don't see how it's usually instant death. My PC's have used sleep, and it hasn't been nearly that effective. YMMV, of course, but all it takes is a 25% chance of spell failure (they make the save, even without anything added) to be fairly ineffective, when that chance is rolled for every critter you might effect.

At higher levels, it becomes more potent...higher DC = harder to resist = more mystic Nyquill.

WaterRabbit · Mar 7, 2002

Spells are not absolutely balanced by level. Each spell has to be evaluated based upon what function it serves. Depending up what the DM emphasizes depends on which spells are more useful. Illusion falls into either really lame or amazingly powerful depending upon the cleverness of the player and the DM to allow it.

Spells don't have to scale with level -- but look at why people don't like psionics. Spells have to scale if you limit the number of times they can be used in a session.

kenjib · Mar 7, 2002

mmadsen said:
I almost brought this issue up in my original post: what's the deal with scaling? Some spells have a different version at every level (Summon Monster I through IX), while others just get better at no additional cost. Is such scaling a sacred cow?

As you pointed out, some spells are great at the level they're introduced (e.g. Sleep), but after a few levels, other spells of the same level get much better. Is that good game design? Or is something we're all just used to?

That's a great point. Although it's one of the big complaints about the psionics system, I actually kind of like it how the spell damages don't scale. It really gives things a different feel and helps to make the spells seem a little more unique.

I think that it can work either way, it's just that the magic system in D&D is half of one and half of the other, like you mention. This is a problem - the inconsistency.