D&D 5E Anyone else annoyed at Wizards lack of Minion summoners?

MechaTarrasque · Dec 11, 2017

Hussar said:
True. But, summoning fiends is limited to pretty high level spells. I'd kinda like my summoner archetype to actually see play before double digit levels.

That argument doesn't really work though when you have the druid right over there who can summon monsters (or animals I suppose) without breaking the game. If summoning is too powerful for wizards, why is it fine for druids? I mean, heck, druids can literaly summon swarms by 5th level. 4 of them. +4 attack bonus and 4d4 damage. And, effectively, double hit points because of the swarm template.

I'm having a hard time thinking that summoning half a dozen goblins is going to be much stronger than that.

Since when is 3rd level considered a "high level" in terms of spells?

Coroc · Dec 11, 2017

I believe part of the reason for that was the way earlyer summon Monster spells did work.

Wit fiends and elementals being magic in nature and coming from another plane it is much easyer to handle if they suddenly disappear back to their homeplane, and per rule if they are killed on the prime they reform in their homeplane. With normal mobs it is not that easy: where do they come from? Do they disappear in one area of the prime when they are summoned? Do they reappear iin the same place when the spell finishes?

Of course using a summon on the native plane of a demon / elemental could lead to the same questions, but you could beguile or charm the mob there which would be easier than a summon eventually.

Coroc · Dec 11, 2017

[MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION] #27 Lol you done to much diablo cadaver explosion

doctorbadwolf · Dec 11, 2017

Coroc said:
[MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION] #27 Lol you done to much diablo cadaver explosion

Hey, it’s a great ability, both mechanically and thematicallyz

Satyrn · Dec 11, 2017

Hawk Diesel said:
I like this idea, but do you have a particular rider or effect in mind? Otherwise, Ray of Frost could be reskinned as Summon Ice Mephit to do this, and can even be described as it nibbling on your target's ankles as the explanation of the speed reduction.

Acid Splash could become Summon Soldier Ant, who appears to spit acid in your target's face.

When you use Thorn Whip, it could be summoning a Giant Frog by your side to lashing your target with its tongue.

Actually... I really wanna make a conjurer now.

I had nothing in mind beyond what I wrote. It was pure brainstorming meant to trigger your post here.

I later thought of a spell that summons a dragon to breathe fire and scare the bejeebus out of everyone. Figure out how to make it 3rd level and there's the summoner's fireball replacement.

schnee · Dec 11, 2017

Arilyn said:
But since DnD is rather generic, wizards need to cover the bases.

If there's anything Wizards have always done better than every other class in every edition of D&D ever published, it's *cover the bases*.

Arilyn said:
And looking at all the spell casting classes in 5e, constraint is not what comes to mind with this edition.

So... far fewer spells per day, no bonus spells per day from high ability scores, Concentration, reduced spell durations, save every round for almost every 'save or suck', almost complete elimination of save or die, charm spells now alerting and angering their targets, crafting being reduced to almost nothing... those aren't constraints?

schnee · Dec 11, 2017

Xanathar's covers some of the holes though, it has a few lower-level Conjure spells for Wizards that let them be effective minion-manners at a far wider range of levels.

They're only lesser and greater demons, though. Too bad they are only the equal of Druids at summoning now, instead of being far better like they deserve to be. :heh:

Hussar · Dec 11, 2017

MechaTarrasque said:
Since when is 3rd level considered a "high level" in terms of spells?

What fiend summoning spells do wizards get at 3rd spell level?

Or are these Xanathar spells? I don't have that book, so, I have no idea.

Arilyn · Dec 11, 2017

schnee said:
If there's anything Wizards have always done better than every other class in every edition of D&D ever published, it's *cover the bases*.

So... far fewer spells per day, no bonus spells per day from high ability scores, Concentration, reduced spell durations, save every round for almost every 'save or suck', almost complete elimination of save or die, charm spells now alerting and angering their targets, crafting being reduced to almost nothing... those aren't constraints?

I was commenting more on the large number of classes and archetypes having access to spells. I think "Thunderwave" is pretty much on every spell list, so I don't think WOTC reduced wizard summoning abilities for flavour reasons. I think they just didn't want to bother with the headache, but posters have already come up with good ways to handle it. Surely professional designers could have accomplished the same?

Same can be said for the uneven number of school spells. It was frustrating to realize my diviner has a lot less choices then an evoker, for example. I know that wizards can learn spells from all lists, but I was really hoping to heavily focus on divination.

I feel that the spell list in 5e was thrown together with little thought toward balance between types of spells, or old favourites, that might have just needed some polish.

cbwjm · Dec 11, 2017

Clearly wotc are fine with wizards as summoners as they still have summoning spells, it's just that they have delineated who summons what more so than other editions. Wizards deal with the inner and outer planes by summoning up elementals and fiends. Previous editions they were able to also summon animals as well but conjuring animals and fey spirits has been placed squarely in the domain of the druid.

It should also be noted that the necromancer can have a host of undead so having multiple minions doesn't seem to have been be considered so unbalancing.

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