D&D 4E 4e Compared to Trad D&D; What You Lose, What You Gain

Imaro

Legend
Obviously you know I don't agree with this.

I outlined upthread (somewhere near the beginning) what I felt are the most fundamental pieces of machinery/feedbacks that creates any singular sequence of play in traditional D&D and the holistic experience:

1) A mapped/keyed/scaled/stocked environment (primarily dungeon but possibly wilderness...where the game's machinery is put under pressure).

2) The exploration turn (and rules that interface with it such as distances, what is feasible in the interval, action resolution, rest requirements, PC build tools, equipment/spell load-out).

3) The Wandering Monster/Random Encounter "Clock" (which pressures 2 and doesn't reward resource-ablating combat).

4) Monster Reaction Rolls.

5) Neutral refereeing.

6) Potential adventuring day dynamics/potential rest availability/opportunity cost resource-based decision-making by players.

7) XP for gold/treasure (which again, doesn't reward getting into unnecessary combats).

From many conversations in the past you know I'm very much a "system matters" advocate; rules, play procedures, play agenda and principles guide the conversation that we're having at the table and incline the mental overhead of all participants at the table toward certain things (rather than others). I don't think that is a particularly controversial claim to make. Even something like "follow the rules" vs "discard and/or ignore the rules at participant x's discretion" has a significant impact on a play paradigm. So in light of that, its difficult for me to look at the above and think "that doesn't incline play toward a particular dynamic" which is what "system doesn't matter" ultimately entails.

And then, when I consider the play excerpt I've been working through (and the hypothetical 4e transliteration of it...which could manifest in dozens of ways...perhaps it doesn't manifest anything like the 5e excerpt...but for illustration, I'm saying it does), I think it should be clear how the player of the Fighter, the player of the Rogue, and the player of the Wizard are dealing with different kinds of cognitive workload and different priorities (which creates different sorts of decision-points and attendant outcomes), sum total a different play paradigm, than that of traditional D&D.

But it seems to me that you disagree with both of these things; (a) its not clear and (b) traditional D&D's fundamental machinery.

If (b) is true, here is a quick thought on that. We have pretty similar play durations (I believe we both started early 80s). My thoughts on our experiences are this; you may have had personally influencing sim priorities and were likely surrounded by folks of similar interests/priorities. I remember when Dragon was discussing these issues (D&D as game vs D&D as sim vs D&D as a collection of the two) and I remember some people having these discussions back then (at gaming shops and just in local groups of people...I was exposed to about 4 groups from the age of 7 - 10; most of them early teenagers). There was a tension/divide (and there still is) that was growing and it became more pervasive as time went on (with a lot of people abandoning D&D for Runequest or Rolemaster). As certain handbooks and articles came out, D&D culture began to drift to this heavy mash of the traditional concepts above and the growing sim priorities (throwing things out like xp for Treasure/Gold, not using Wandering Monsters because they weren't "realistic" for the ecosystem etc). But I don't call that traditional D&D. I'd call that the 2nd wave of D&D.

Then the Dragonlancing of D&D came about with all of the White Wolf and LARPing influences as a massive influx of Illusionism/Force, big setting, big metaplot took hold. I'd call that the 3rd wave of D&D, but I certainly wouldn't call it Trad D&D.

There are 4 components to my above post:

* Trad D&D fundamental machinery and system matters.

* In relation to the above, why the 4e transliteration is so different procedurally (input), cognitive workload (input), and output.

* 2nd wave of D&D

* 3rd wave of D&D

Where do you disagree on the above 4?

Not who this was addressed to but my biggest issue would be that I'm a little confused on why 1e, 2e, 3e and 5e are being lumped together under your definition of trad play. IMO 1e and 5e (or even 3e) play differently enough from each other that I wouldn't lump them all together and some don't necessarily fall neatly under the parameters you've set to define "traditional" D&D.
 

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Celebrim

Legend
I outlined upthread (somewhere near the beginning) what I felt are the most fundamental pieces of machinery/feedbacks that creates any singular sequence of play in traditional D&D and the holistic experience:

Ok.

1) A mapped/keyed/scaled/stocked environment (primarily dungeon but possibly wilderness...where the game's machinery is put under pressure).

That is a procedure of play, not a rule of the system. It has to do with how you prepare to play the game and think about playing the game, but it's not an inherent aspect of the game. You still could be playing traditional D&D and not have any of those things. I know, I was in a game that was largely without them as early as 1990.

2) The exploration turn (and rules that interface with it such as distances, what is feasible in the interval, action resolution, rest requirements, PC build tools, equipment/spell load-out).

There could be vastly different procedures of play around exploration, generating different 'bangs' (in the modern parlance) and different applications of the rules to resolve player propositions in the resulting difficulties.

3) The Wandering Monster/Random Encounter "Clock" (which pressures 2 and doesn't reward resource-ablating combat).

Which is again a procedure of play and not an absolute requirement of traditional D&D play. DMs would have wandering monsters and random encounter checks if they made sense, and would not have them if they did not. Disagree? Please explain to me how "Tomb of Horrors" is not a traditional D&D adventure, and if it is not whether there is actually any meaning to this analysis given the enormous amount of old school play that is not traditional by your narrow definition.

4) Monster Reaction Rolls.

Technically a rule, maybe, but one that was treated more like a guideline than a rule and frequently observed mostly by the breach. This is because it only made sense in certain situations and DMs would have widely foregone the 'rule' based on whether they thought the rule was appropriately simulating something. Indeed, I'd pretty much insist 90% of the DMG consisted of guidelines of this sort intended to help the DM simulate scenarios but not intended to be contractual obligations between the DM and the player - the rules being secret, the players could not complain that the DM was somehow in breech of a contract. Nor for that matter does the DMG present itself as a table contract. It presents itself as mentoring and guiding a DM based on the mastery of the game communicated by the books author. This is a very different situation than exists in post-Indy game systems.

5) Neutral refereeing.

Assumed for the most part unspoken as a desirable procedure of play, but not actually a part of the rules. Nor for that matter can you necessarily sustain the idea that the frequently adversarial tone of the DM was expected to take is exactly the same as "neutral refereeing", and while it was frequently spoken of in denigrating terms at the time, as a matter of simple fact many traditional D&D tables did not have neutral refereeing as a procedure of play and while it would have been frowned on DMs that did not use neutral refereeing (for whatever reason) were still playing the game by the rules.

6) Potential adventuring day dynamics/potential rest availability/opportunity cost resource-based decision-making by players.

Potentially, sure, but only as a procedure of play, not as a part of the rules. While the DMG very much assumes a haven/dungeon delve format where rest and recovery are big part of play, even by the time the book was printed a very large number of tables where at least at times telling very different sorts of stories where those guidelines were ignored as irrelevant. It's not like an event driven scenario was invented in the 1990's, or that urban adventuring and political intrigue games were unknown in the 1980's. Heck, dungeon crawling itself began as an outgrowth of such play intended to represent an interesting change of pace in the game. Traditionally D&D players saw themselves as simulating an entire fantastic world and the rules exist to resolve disputes and conflicts within that world, not to describe what play in that world was like or was limited to.

7) XP for gold/treasure (which again, doesn't reward getting into unnecessary combats).

This is the only portion of the list that is what I would think of as an actual rule that was observed as a rule. Certainly I'm unaware of anyone deprecating this rule prior to the 2e era. But, the implication that you draw from this rule, namely that good play avoid getting into unnecessary combats is based not off the rule, but upon procedures of play. I know, because I've been in games were no combat was seen as unnecessary ("if the duck is worth XP, I'm going to kill me some ducks"), and conversely urban thief based campaigns where stealing from the good guys and not getting caught was the order of the day. (A mentor of mine, his PC group spent all of B2: Keep on the Borderlands, planning a heist of the Keep.) Again, whether the table play evolved to this depends on how you prepare for play and the procedures of monster generation and treasure allocation being used at the table. 1e AD&D gives multiple suggested guidelines in different places for how treasure is to be generated and described, and in practice the ratio of monster slain XP to treasure XP could vary widely. I've been in games where the available treasure XP exceeded monster XP by 10:1 (you killed monsters only as necessary to get the loot), and where monster XP and treasure XP were about equal (you killed anything your alignment and capabilities allowed). That depends on procedures of play adopted by the DM.

From many conversations in the past you know I'm very much a "system matters" advocate; rules, play procedures, play agenda and principles guide the conversation that we're having at the table and incline the mental overhead of all participants at the table toward certain things (rather than others). I don't think that is a particularly controversial claim to make.

No, but inclinations and generalizations aren't the same as actual descriptions, and the vast majority of processes of play at a table are not guided by the rules. This is doubly true in the case of traditional RPing where the rules themselves don't tightly describe the processes of play the way something like Dungeon World or FATE does.

I think it should be clear how the player of the Fighter, the player of the Rogue, and the player of the Wizard are dealing with different kinds of cognitive workload and different priorities (which creates different sorts of decision-points and attendant outcomes), sum total a different play paradigm, than that of traditional D&D.

Speaking as a guy that played a lot of old school D&D, not in the slightest. I've actually been in an AD&D game where we were crawling around the post apocalyptic ruins of a medieval city fighting invaders like a team of commandos fighting robot Terminators in while an alien space craft hovered in the air over it. And that was almost 3 decades ago. I played a Thief for years. Cognative workload didn't depend on the system. It depended on whether I was on point in a dungeon crawl, spying out a city, building a trap with my intimate knowledge of trap mechanics, managing the Guild, or negotiating a peace treaty on behalf of the fighter Lord who'd carved out his hold in the wilderness. It depended on the story we were telling, which wasn't constrained by the system like you seem to think.

As certain handbooks and articles came out, D&D culture began to drift to this heavy mash of the traditional concepts above and the growing sim priorities (throwing things out like xp for Treasure/Gold, not using Wandering Monsters because they weren't "realistic" for the ecosystem etc). But I don't call that traditional D&D. I'd call that the 2nd wave of D&D.

Again, Tomb of Horrors has no Wandering Encounters. And we are very quickly going to be in to a No True Scotsman fallacy here. You are retroactively defining what D&D is limited to in a way that no one I knew of at the time would have. You've got this "System Matters" paradigm going, and you are retroactively assuming that it functioned in 1980's D&D based on principles - not based on what actually happened at tables in 1980's D&D.

Then the Dragonlancing of D&D came about with all of the White Wolf and LARPing influences as a massive influx of Illusionism/Force, big setting, big metaplot took hold. I'd call that the 3rd wave of D&D, but I certainly wouldn't call it Trad D&D.

The Dragonlancing of D&D? Didn't Dragonlance itself come out in like 1986, well before LARPing and White Wolf and so forth? Again, you are fitting the data to your theory, not your theory to the data.
 

Not who this was addressed to but my biggest issue would be that I'm a little confused on why 1e, 2e, 3e and 5e are being lumped together under your definition of trad play. IMO 1e and 5e (or even 3e) play differently enough from each other that I wouldn't lump them all together and some don't necessarily fall neatly under the parameters you've set to define "traditional" D&D.

I definitely agree with what you’ve written above (never claimed differently).

If I was forced to do 1st, 2nd and 3rd wave categories, I’d probably go:

OD&D, Basic, Expert - 1st
1e - mostly 1st with some 2nd
2e - mostly 3rd with some 2nd and a smattering of 1st
3e - mostly 2nd with some 3rd and a smattering of 1st
5e - half 3rd, 1/4 2nd, 1/4 1st
 
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@Celebrim

I don’t have time to read your response in detail and respond to it, but one thing sticks out at a quick look.

You appear to be using “system” as an analog for “rules” and then evaluating my post based on this usage. I don’t agree with that usage. When discussing a game, when I say “system”, I don’t mean discrete parts. I’m talking about the integration of all of play premise/goals, codified rules + the handling of exceptions, the expectations of each participant, and the broad procedures (including conversation/flow of information/how stuff enters play) of play...working in concert (or working at odds in some cases) to create a play experience.

EDIT - I’ll read through your post and have a fuller response on the coming days.
 

Celebrim

Legend
Let me try to make a thesis out of this.

In the late 90's and early 00's people began to try to think systematically about RPG design and develop a framework for describing RPGs. They contributed a lot of potentially useful terminology to the game and the exercise was itself really worthwhile, even if I'm not convinced any of their conclusions necessarily hold true. One idea that they hit upon was the idea of "system matters". Now, I'd argue that this is something they had to hit upon in order to do the thing that they were doing. It was a necessary pre-condition for the exercise. And, to some extent I agree with it. I would certainly never argue that the system doesn't matter at all. But there is I think a gotcha in the idea of "system matters" that if you overlook, can lead to wildly erroneous conclusions.

The people who were engaged in these conversations and who decided that "system matters" went on to create very tightly scripted games with rigorously defined goals and procedures of play. These were games that consciously attempted to implement "system matters" and who consciously had thought about procedures of play in a way no one else before really had.

Naturally, you can analyze these games pretty much entirely within the framework their creators had created. It works. Because those games were in fact created and inspired by that framework with the intention of implementing the ideas that they had invented.

But you cannot necessarily apply the same level of analysis to game which were not consciously created under the "system matters" paradigm, whose creators had very different ideas about what they wanted to accomplish, and which did not rigorously define what the procedures of play were to be. AD&D actually IMO better defined procedures of play than most games created at the time, which literally told you nothing about how to play them and typically just dumped a huge amount of rules on the player because the author never considered procedures of play as something that needed to be communicate. But AD&D certainly didn't limit procedures of play in the way Indy or Indy inspired game systems typically do, because while the author's of D&D didn't necessarily assume someone would know how to play an RPG, neither did they think of themselves as trying to produce a single type of gameplay within a single game.
 

Celebrim

Legend
You appear to be using “system” as an analog for “rules” and then evaluating my post based on this usage. I don’t agree with that usage. When discussing a game, when I say “system”, I don’t mean discrete parts. I’m talking about the integration of all of play premise/goals, codified rules + the handling of exceptions, the expectations of each participant, and the broad procedures (including conversation/flow of information/how stuff enters play) of play...working in concert (or working at odds in some cases) to create a play experience.

I'm completely OK with adopting that definition, since only that definition can make "System Matters" true in the sense that you want to mean it - albeit I'm not sure that the way "System Matters" was originally defined was as broad as all that. However, the problem with adopting that definition is the bulk of those "not the rules" things can't actually be evaluated in the case of traditional RPGs because there is no artifact to study to establish the truth of any of it. You can't proof text play; only rules. Only the rules of something like AD&D exist as a concrete part of "System" (and even that is fraught with difficulty because its not clear any two tables were using the same rules). Since AD&D didn't take the steps of tightly defining the premise, goals, expectations, procedures, and even to a large extent the preparation of play in the rules, and all that varied greatly from table to table as a result, you can't actually perform the "System Matters" analysis you want to do.
 
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Garthanos

Arcadian Knight
For me, this is "back in the day". It's how I used the 1e AD&D reaction check (at least in part). I'd have go back and reread the 1e AD&D rules to see if that was the intention of the RAW, but the idea that you shouldn't let players get away with treating Charisma as a dump stat by having Charisma regularly and tangibly impact how the game proceeded is nothing new for me. If we are going to dispense with that, regardless of the edition, we should just get rid of Charisma completely and rely on player charisma.

No doubt I agree but I can use my charisma to scare them or fool them or make sure the enemy or hopefully not enemy pays attention to me or various other things on a long laundry list. Hence the various charisma skills in 4e its still an expression of player agency by character action though.

I have evolved a little bit with respect to something like a 3e Diplomacy check. Players attempting diplomacy are not allowed to make the proposition, "I make a diplomacy check to get the NPC to help us." Under my procedures of play, that's treated as an invalid proposition, much as a PbtA based game would treat a proposition that couldn't be unambiguously resolved to a particular move. In order to be a valid social skill check, the player must describe what they say, preferably as a first person in character statement to the NPC. This is because the content of the statement matters, and because I prefer social encounters to be played out in a natural 'theatrical' style. (This preference could be stated to be "simulate the situation with the the least abstract resolution system practical".) .

I am pretty certain most of that is for the general case RAW in 4e and 5e (You may have to look in 3e though) ... The standard reason might just be the player doesn't even know whether a check is needed for instance the npc may be utterly in agreement and the characters charisma is unimportant or it might be vital that they float it the right way, and it might be a major element in achieving story success (skill challenge environment). So yeh Charisma as a dump stat while still "possible" it's no more viable anymore than any other stat.

However whether they describe their action theatrically or not though is flexible. I want to convince the guy of such and such and he should join us because of broadly expressed X Y and Z is not really theatrical but can generally give enough info to figure out intent and a general methodology for the DM to flow with it . (I think we have to be careful of demanding theatrical ness because some players really arent - my son and daughter are basically serious hams though)
 
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If you have a "Time is imminent scenario making sure everyone acts could be vital to winning the challenge - not acting could be a failure or automatically make subsequent checks harder.

Sure, the key element isn't really 'time is imminent' so much as it is 'action is required'. Or maybe even more to the point the success/fail tally is more a measure of how much everyone is actively contributing vs a set of 'prizes' you get which leads to victory. Remember, this was also the version of the system which had a lot more failures at higher complexities (half as many as required successes, so actually only 2 needed in complexity one, but going up from there, with Complexity 5 being 12 successes before 6 failures.

Thus it was less critical that you succeed every single time, but you HAD to try, and roughly 2 out of 3 attempts needed to be successful. Note that this is pretty close to the ratio targeted in combat, 65% hit rate. I think the CONCEPT was that the numbers would be pretty much equivalent. Note also that DCs were 10/15/20 at level 1 (and increased by basically +1/2 levels after that). I think the idea was they would be roughly similar to attacks, but obviously the math didn't quite pan out that way in practice.
 

The really serious question is why do you decide to treat one scene as scripted and another not. It seems you've already predecided that the reason to do this is based on the importance of the NPC. What does that mean to you?

This is similar to the questions which drove me to the design of HoML, where there are NO SUCH THINGS as individual checks. If a conflict doesn't exist, then there are no dice, and if one does, then it is a challenge. Thus you can't make checks outside of challenges (which include combat encounters in HoML terminology).

Now, there ARE 'general challenges' which follow basically the 4e SC rules, and 'combat' (or technically the slightly broader category of 'Action Sequences' which might potentially include other combat-like time-critical situations where you want to use action economy). So there's still SOME sort of dichotomy there, but if you were to interact with an NPC and it was part of some sort of conflict resolution then you wouldn't have a choice in HoML about mechanics, you'd be in a general challenge (unless someone started a fight).
 

Not who this was addressed to but my biggest issue would be that I'm a little confused on why 1e, 2e, 3e and 5e are being lumped together under your definition of trad play. IMO 1e and 5e (or even 3e) play differently enough from each other that I wouldn't lump them all together and some don't necessarily fall neatly under the parameters you've set to define "traditional" D&D.

My response would be that ONLY 1e out of those 4 is 'traditional' D&D, and even it is on the outer edge of the core traditional phase of D&D as defined by [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]. 1e certainly has the rules and procedures in the forms he talks about such that you CAN play D&D as it was originally conceived. It also allows for something different, epitomized by the OA book, and then finally by 2e, which is to say a more 'story game' or dramatically driven game.

I'm not sure I hold with [MENTION=6696971]Manbearcat[/MENTION]'s idea of the evolution of the game (or devolution according to many). Things like XP for treasure, and a hard focus on things like henchmen, wandering monsters, hex crawling, etc. did fade some with time, but it seems to me it was more in the service of trying to achieve a wider range of narrative experiences than some vain quest to turn D&D into a 'sim'. There were always a few people who played kind of like that, but I don't think it was a vast tension. Not like OSR vs modern RPG play is today. Some people liked rules that they felt produced 'realistic' results, but everyone always recognized that they were playing a game and that some sort of narrative considerations (IE making the PCs playable in some sense) was an element of the game. Even people who loved Aftermath (a very hard-core game of gun realism) had to make some concessions if they wanted to keep playing for long.

So, I would see the 'LARPing phase' as simply an extension of a trend which started early in the game's history. It wasn't even a very distinct phase, but 2e certainly was not 'traditional D&D' in its sensibilities and catered to it (though oddly enough it retained pretty much all the 'stuff' required to do old school dungeon crawls if you wished, though some of the details were poorly explicated or left to implication).

3e and 5e are totally different beasts. They have little to do with traditional D&D or even with AD&D in general really. 5e does drive close to the sensibilities of 2e in many respects though, and might be seen as a sort of less incoherent D&D with stronger story elements, though sadly little in the way of mechanical support for that (system matters).

3e was just a mutant hairball thing. I suspect the designers THOUGHT they were polishing 2e's chaotic rules mess, but they so amplified spell casting and created such a huge THING with the skill system, that it just warped off in its own direction. If it is like 2e, it is like 2e hyped so much that it just melts... IMHO WotC wrote 4e because fundamentally 3e was just unmanageable and impossible to push in any real direction.
 

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