Don't Lose The Forest For The Trees

Most people know the expression "can't see the forest for the trees," that is, you get lost in details and fail to see the big picture. In game (and level/adventure) design it's usually the big picture that counts, for players. Yet many designers, even experienced designers, sometimes get bogged down in details at the expense of the quality of the game as a whole.
Most people know the expression "can't see the forest for the trees," that is, you get lost in details and fail to see the big picture. In game (and level/adventure) design it's usually the big picture that counts, for players. Yet many designers, even experienced designers, sometimes get bogged down in details at the expense of the quality of the game as a whole.


The main objective in RPGs is a "forest" (an adventure) that players can enjoy, whether they like "trees" that involve combat, or story, or puzzles, or politics, or something else. To put it another way, the forest has to consist of the right kind of trees. But the rules themselves are also a matter of forest and trees, because the rules can require players (and GM) to focus on trees to the detriment of the quality of the forest.

Let's look at a general example, both from the player point of view and a designer point of view. Say you're making a game depicting the entire Pacific War in World War II. It doesn't make sense to ask players to manage minute details, such as determining the airplane loads on an aircraft carrier: whether they are armed with torpedoes or bombs, when they were gassed up, and so on. During an aircraft carrier battle such as Midway, yes, the Japanese decisions of this sort were very important, but can you ask players to keep track of such minute details at this entire-Pacific-war scale? It becomes a grind rather than a game.

Keeping track of details isn't always too much attention to minutiae. Some would argue that keeping careful track of inventory is, but I don't, because it's only an occasional thing, and it helps belief in what's happening. If players can carry "anything and everything," as they often do in computer RPGs, we lose suspension of disbelief (break immersion).

Let's take an example from the game Dystopia Rising. This very atmospheric post apocalyptic game, originally a LARP, is lumbered with a set of rules apparently designed by someone without experience. The setting cries out for simple rules to highlight the setting, but is lumbered with detailed combat rules (including determination of where you hit, and lots of dice rolls), and an awkward roll of several 10 sided dice that must be added up individually (a real no-no in game design these days) to resolve anything . The forest is obscured by those details. (I'll talk about this game in more detail another time.)

Game design is an invitation to get lost in details. It's easier to add things to a game to solve a problem than to remove things, even though games generally are better when all unnecessaries are removed. As a freelance game designer, I like to set aside designs for months and then come back to them because that helps me see the forest, and it helps me recognize when trees need work (or need to be excised).

Many modern board and card games are puzzles rather than games, where there are a few always-correct solutions ("paths to victory"), or only one. It might make sense to complicate a puzzle in order to make it harder to solve. Nonetheless, even when you're doing a puzzle you need to try to keep the forest in mind as you wander through the trees you're growing all over the place in your puzzle. Moreover, role-playing is the genre of games least amenable to being made into puzzles.

The designer always has to ask himself (or herself), "what am I trying to show in my game?" The question isn't as important for an adventure designer, but still worth asking. This not only applies to game design but also to many creative activities.

contributed by Lewis Pulsipher
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Lewis Pulsipher

Lewis Pulsipher

Dragon, White Dwarf, Fiend Folio

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
In [MENTION=30518]lewpuls[/MENTION]'s terminology, chess and go are puzzles because there is a solution (though it's cognitively/mathematically inaccessible to most players).

Yes, that's how it works I believe. Chess is a puzzle, strictly speaking, because it can be solved with backward induction. Computationally speaking backward induction is not practical on chess and go, and likely never will be (to my knowledge), but there actually is an answer as to whether white or black wins, given optimal play.

I assume that backgammon is a puzzle for the same reason, although its parameters can change from move to move because of the dice results.

The role of randomness in this set of terminology is tricky but randomness can be incorporated into decision theory and game theory. Here I'm using these terms in their technical senses; to be clear I'll say "mathematical game theory" henceforth. As I recall, backgammon is essentially a race between players... been a while since I played it. However, it does have an aspect of strategy and it clearly has a versus (or zero-sum) aspect.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I would assume that Diplomacy is a game in the relevant sense. And I guess many other blind declaration wargames (inlcuding CCGs) might count.

I think Diplomacy would be considered a game in the proposed sense. The problem I have with the proposed terminology is that in mathematical game theory one thinks about both cooperation and competition. The proposed terminology seems to exclude cooperative games, for instance, which are studied in mathematical game theory alongside competitive ones. Indeed many games have aspects of both.


As to the bigger issue of "why bother"? I assume that this sort of analysis is helpful to game design.

I do agree that the distinctions can be helpful, although I'm not entirely sure that established terminology from mathematical game theory wouldn't be easier.

(Also - as something of an expert on Wittgenstein's Philosophical Investigations, I can confidently state that his discussion of the word "game" has no bearing on the current topic of games vs puzzles, except in the trivial sense that he is pointing out that words can have varied uses. But making that rather banal point is not what makes the book an important work of philosophy; and the philsophical points have no bearing upon game design.)

Huh, I'll trust you on this, I don't really know Wittgenstein in detail. I do know that I think the notion of "family resemblance" makes a great deal of sense for much of the terminology here.
 

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pemerton

Legend
The role of randomness in this set of terminology is tricky but randomness can be incorporated into decision theory and game theory. Here I'm using these terms in their technical senses; to be clear I'll say "mathematical game theory" henceforth. As I recall, backgammon is essentially a race between players... been a while since I played it. However, it does have an aspect of strategy and it clearly has a versus (or zero-sum) aspect.
Backgammon is a race, yes - it's like Ludo but better!

It's a much easier game than chess (hence my preference for it!) - at any given move, if you can calculate probablities across two dice in your head, then you can work out what move minimises your chances of being "hit" by your opponent (meaning that that piece has to go back to start) while maximising the movement of your pieces towards the winning line. A fully optimal move would of course include all the future probabilities for all the future moves, which I can't do in my head for even one roll beyond my current one, and which would require computing across 30+ moves for each player for a complete game.

But it is a two-player, computable game with all information available to all players, so I think it counts as a puzzle in [MENTION=30518]lewpuls[/MENTION]'s sense.

The problem I have with the proposed terminology is that in mathematical game theory one thinks about both cooperation and competition. The proposed terminology seems to exclude cooperative games, for instance, which are studied in mathematical game theory alongside competitive ones. Indeed many games have aspects of both.
I could be wrong, but I don't think that lewpuls is meaning to use "game" in the sense of mathematical game theory/decision theory.

His reason for classifying (most? all?) cooperative games as puzzles, I think, is that they are (in principle) solvable and (once the solution is known) there is always a best move. I don't know boardgames or computer games very well, and so am working from a very limited palette of examples, but I'm thinking something like Forbidden Island/Forbidden Desert. I play Forbidden Desert with my 10 year old from time-to-time. We're a long way from having identified the winning play, but I can see how it can make sense to think of it as a puzzle.

To go back to the terminology thing, though - whether one wants to distinguish puzzles from games, or to identify them as a species of game with particular features, seems a matter of stipulation for one's salient purposes, rather than a matter of deep metaphysical truth.
 

Jay Verkuilen

Grand Master of Artificial Flowers
Backgammon is a race, yes - it's like Ludo but better! <snip> It's a much easier game than chess (hence my preference for it!) - But it is a two-player, computable game with all information available to all players, so I think it counts as a puzzle in @lewpuls's sense.

Yes, I think that's right. The thing is, backgammon is arguably the oldest game (with formalized rules) in the world. It's been played for millennia and I have little doubt it will continue to be played millennia hence. So one of his premises---that because it's a puzzle people lose interest once they know how to play it---seems wrong.


I could be wrong, but I don't think that lewpuls is meaning to use "game" in the sense of mathematical game theory/decision theory.

His reason for classifying (most? all?) cooperative games as puzzles, I think, is that they are (in principle) solvable and (once the solution is known) there is always a best move.
Yes in theory (up to randomness) there is a best move for many games. Given that backgammon's randomness is fairly benign it can be easily incorporated into backward induction and thus optimized.

I really fail to see what conceptual work "puzzle" does for many of these "games". (The fact that I have to put quotes around "game" is one reason that this word is a terrible choice to be rendered as specific as has been done.) The computation isn't like tic-tac-toe, where it's well within the realm of possibility for essentially all players from about age 10 on to play a perfect game.

What's a puzzle for me and you may not be for other players. Good entertainment in the broad sense needs to be sufficiently predictable that it can be comprehended by the participants, but not so much so that it can simply be anticipated. Obviously this will differ by person so a game (or a TV show or song) for a 4 year old will be quite different than for a 34 year old.

Apropos solvability: Whether a game is solved is not necessarily the same as whether it remains interesting for humans to play. Even a strongly solved game can still be interesting if its solution is too complex to be memorized; conversely, a weakly solved game may lose its attraction if the winning strategy is simple enough to remember (e.g. Maharajah and the Sepoys). An ultra-weak solution (e.g. Chomp or Hex on a sufficiently large board) generally does not affect playability.


I don't know boardgames or computer games very well, and so am working from a very limited palette of examples, but I'm thinking something like Forbidden Island/Forbidden Desert. I play Forbidden Desert with my 10 year old from time-to-time. We're a long way from having identified the winning play, but I can see how it can make sense to think of it as a puzzle.

I haven't played it so I can't comment.


To go back to the terminology thing, though - whether one wants to distinguish puzzles from games, or to identify them as a species of game with particular features, seems a matter of stipulation for one's salient purposes, rather than a matter of deep metaphysical truth.

Terminology is generally useful or not useful, it's not true or not.

The main thing I saw from the terminology of use here is the versus aspect. Clearly mathematical game theory already identified that clearly in the cooperation vs non-cooperation distinction. In general a TTRPG is not competitive in that sense. Of course in a TTRPG game taken very broadly as a structured human interaction there are often competitive aspects: Some players are more motivated by dominance than others, for example.
 
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pemerton

Legend
backgammon is arguably the oldest game (with formalized rules) in the world. It's been played for millennia and I have little doubt it will continue to be played millennia hence. So one of his premises---that because it's a puzzle people lose interest once they know how to play it---seems wrong.

<snip>

Whether a game is solved is not necessarily the same as whether it remains interesting for humans to play. Even a strongly solved game can still be interesting if its solution is too complex to be memorized; conversely, a weakly solved game may lose its attraction if the winning strategy is simple enough to remember
Well, I don't disagree with any of this!

Backgammon is my favourite non-RPG game. Part of what I enjoy is working out the best move each time, and then finding out whether or not it worked (given that it's probabilistic, and then the other player rolls his/her dice).

On the current (expansive) notion of puzzle, I imagine that bridge and five hundred count as puzzles, or are at least close to them - the auction gives significant (though not full) information (and in bridge there is also the dummy), and the play reveals more information. But many people enjoy bridge, and I can report from experience that it's possible to spend many a pleasant hour playing five hundred!
 

Hussar

Legend
And, honestly, I'm still a bit fuzzy on the distinction. Take something like Settlers of Catan. Yes, there are optimal strategies, but, since much of the game is random- you never know what resources will be generated turn to turn - and trading is based on all sorts of criteria that might not be apparent at the time, I don't see how it can be a puzzle. You couldn't really model a game from beginning to end, there are just too many variables. Or a game like Eclipse, one of my favorites, where the board is generated randomly in play, cannot be modeled either.

So, it looks to me more like any genre description. Sure, you can nail the really concrete examples at either end of the spectrum, but, in between, you can't really claim something is one or the other most of the time.
 

Thomas Bowman

First Post
I like to use d20 3.5 because I know it, I am more interested in finding ways to adapt it to a number of different scenarios than in finding new ways to roll the dice to determine hit or miss. Every time I see a new RPG, I am deterred by the new hit or miss system that goes with it, that I have to learn from scratch, and that goes the same for D&D editions 4 and 5. I like to tweak D20 to account for the differences between modern, futuristic, and archaic weapons, hence every character and creature gets three armor classes instead of one.
 

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