Elminster's Guide to Deities and Avatars

neogod22

Explorer
I god or avatar can be an unwinnable and not have broken abilities. Just because you give it stats doesn't mean it has to be beatable by PCs. I can only assume your are talking conceptually here, because this avatar is not an unwinnable fight. I haven't personally checked the math or balance, but I don't see anything on quick glance with this avatar that is broken or unwinnable. In fact, I am pretty sure a lvl 20 party would wipe him out pretty quickly.
The funny thing is, you all keep missing the point and essentially repeating what I keep saying. So let me put this in a context that you can understand.

Demonlords are very tough fights when ran right, but usually winnable. It can be an unwinnable situation if fought on their plane in their lair with their minions, but if summoned and having to fight alone, it should be pretty winnable.

Archdevils if ran right are pretty unwinnable. Not because they have broken abilities, but because they have teleport and regeneration. This allows you to be more tactical in combat, which works for devils since this is how they fight anyway. In a situation where the arch devil has to fight alone, he can use hit and run tactics, regenerate and come back never giving the players the ability to rest, which will cause them to use up their resources. Zariel is a perfect example of in normal conditions she would be unbeatable without having broken abilities.
 

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dave2008

Legend
The funny thing is, you all keep missing the point and essentially repeating what I keep saying. So let me put this in a context that you can understand.

Demonlords are very tough fights when ran right, but usually winnable. It can be an unwinnable situation if fought on their plane in their lair with their minions, but if summoned and having to fight alone, it should be pretty winnable.

Archdevils if ran right are pretty unwinnable. Not because they have broken abilities, but because they have teleport and regeneration. This allows you to be more tactical in combat, which works for devils since this is how they fight anyway. In a situation where the arch devil has to fight alone, he can use hit and run tactics, regenerate and come back never giving the players the ability to rest, which will cause them to use up their resources. Zariel is a perfect example of in normal conditions she would be unbeatable without having broken abilities.

From your response I don't think we are talking about the same things. I think our definitions of "broken abilities" may be different. What is your point, but I am not sure what your trying to illustrate with your example.

So what are you calling broken abilities?

From my perspective there is no such thing as a broken ability on the monster / NPC side, if the result falls within the CR presented for the monster / NPC. To me, a monster is only "broken" if, for example, it fights like a CR 30 monster, but is listed as CR 20.

So by your description above (if accurate), Zariel would be "broken" per my definition. If she is unwinnable at CR 26, but a demon lord is winnable at the same CR, then something is possibly broken. To be clear, I don't believe Zariel is broken, but maybe the demon lords are ;)
 

Ash Mantle

Adventurer
Hi everyone, hope you've all been well!

Just wanted to give a heads up that I haven't abandoned this project nor have I died :p, but real life has been very intrusive.


I've actually been thinking of iterating the stats of Valkur again (and by extension the rest of the other deities), and understand the concern expressed by neogod22, which cbwjm and dave2008 have tried to allay; I've some ideas that people might like.

As for the concerns over the lack of flavor, that's also been true. I've recently been inspired by reading through the Guildmaster's Guide to Ravnica (and also Volo's Guide to Monsters) and wish to include something like that for the god's worshippers - something akin to the backgrounds, and the renown system, and basically give some more information about each god's worshippers as well.


I don't seem to be able to post polls, but what are your favorite human deities from the Forgotten Realms? That'll give me an idea of where to focus from here; though also haven't forgotten the mentions of deities in this thread.
There's two polls
https://www.strawpoll.me/16980677
https://www.strawpoll.me/16980715

Thanks heaps, everyone!
 

Ash Mantle

Adventurer
Also, since Tiamat was classed as a Fiend, I would class any non-evil deity as a Celestial, in game terms. Nor would Valkur's form count as an avatar, and his divine rank of 3 seems to reference the 3e rules, which wouldn't apply here. But that's my take.

Oh, thinking about this some more, I'll probably likely use humanoid (avatar) as a designation for any deities that were previously mortal prior to apotheosis, so this'll include Valkur, Bane and his ilk. Otherwise, Tiamat's avatar would be a fiend, Selune's and Lathander's avatars would be celestials respectively.
 



Ash Mantle

Adventurer
Honestly just updating the mechanics of the 2e Avatars to 5e Mechanics would work well and simplify matters.

That honestly would be the most excellent idea by far, and would also be best for my sanity!

That would take quite a bit of time/work as well - there are a lot of 2e avatars out there!

Yeah, there's also this excellent point as well!



I apologise in advance for the horrific slow pace of my work :)
 


Ash Mantle

Adventurer
No worries, I am intimately familiar with the time it can take. Work at your own pace - we will be here! :)

Thanks heaps, bro, and thanks heaps for understanding! And can understand, your awesomely epic works would certainly have taken some time to craft! But they are well worth it indeed.
Will get cracking then :)
 
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