D&D 5E New UE Classes

Tony Vargas

Legend
I'm guessing the major sticking point between Warlord and say, Valor Bard in terms of how they actually play would be the resource system?
The topic was new classes, not how to muddle through until a class you want gets here, let alone try to design one. ;)

I mean, if the Valor Bard didn't exist you could play a Fighter/Wizard with the Entertainer Background. No Paladin? Noble Fighter/Cleric. No Ranger? Outlander Fighter/Rogue/Druid in the proportion that works for you. 5e gives players several different ways to come at a concept. With or w/o MCing, with a reprise of a class from a past edition, or if just a hint is desired, with a Background or Feat.

Possible work-arounds and cobbled-together builds are no reason to exclude a Core class from development.

That's only an issue if you actually want to break the combat engine or action economy.
Is there even consensus among Warlord fans about what they think that a Warlord should be able to do that does so?
One thing the 4e Warlord did that caused a hint of controversy early on (mainly on whether it was ranged or not, but still), Commander's Strike, could have potential action-economy implications. The main one, in 5e, being granting an attack (5e has no MBA concept) vs granting an action that must be used to attack. The former is much more contained in terms of potential power... except for Rogues' SA, for instance. The latter is more potent, but 'fairer' in that any ally can benefit proportionately from it - that is, it wouldn't penalize classes that depend on Extra Attack for DPR scaling. Not a major stumbling block.

The Warlord was a full class in a past-edition PH1, and was a strong concept that could cover a swath of heroic archetypes that the game has consistently failed to support well for decades. The the 9th level Lord of the classic game, who gained followers but no abilities to lead or best utilize them, nor provide leadership to other allies. The 'natural leader who anchors the party' was how 3e characterized it's fighter, while giving it absolutely nothig to back that up. The 5e fighter is little different from that pedigree, it pays lip service to a sub-set of concepts the Warlord handled much better in 4e, but there simply isn't the design space in the sub-class of such a DPR-focused class to flesh it out and make it even as much of a suggestion of the Warlord as the EK is a suggestion of the Wizard. A 5e Warlord wouldn't be limited by formal 'Roles,' either. It's concept as a tactician could be fully realized with maneuvers ('tactical maneuvers,' even) that might affect enemies in ways that would have stepped on the 'Controller' role, before, for instance.

The design space to do that is wide open, the existing non-caster sub-classes having barely scratched the surface.
 
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Leatherhead

Possibly a Idiot.
That's a nice idea, but 5e does draw a mechanical line between magical and not. Spells are magic, ki is magical, action surge, cs dice, rage, and even psionics, aren't - they may all be fantastic elements of the fantasy world, but dispel magic, for instance, differentiates among them.
Interesting you would bring up Dispel Magic. Because Dispel Magic only dispels spells, and we know that spells aren't the only magical things in the world, such as all those spiffy ki attacks. From that, we can conclude that the name Dispel Magic is simply a misnomer used for legacy purposes, and that there isn't as much of a hard mechanical line between "magical" and "mundane" anymore.

That's only an issue if you actually want to break the combat engine or action economy. Is there even consensus among Warlord fans about what they think that a Warlord should be able to do that does so?

The repeated points I keep reading are that a class should be called "warlord" from level 1 (which snubs everyone else who has to wait until 2 or 3 for their favorite class), and the "lazylord" should be a thing again. And it's the level 1 lazylord which is what causes all the problems. To get the full feel of the lazylord, you would have to bring back multiple out-of-turn actions and shuffling. Right now, we have Fighter and Rogue subclasses who can invoke warlord-eque abilities that trigger OA's and give out buffs. But as the basis for an entire class, things are going to get messy.

Firstly, the lazylord ideally never attacks for themselves, this means that either Reactions are going to become a premium resource or that special OA's are going to be given out for free. Neither solution is a good one.

Secondly, shuffling isn't as much of a thing anymore. Warlords were infamous for moving PC's around the battlefield, but doing so out of turn is going to exasperate the problems listed above. The other solution is a simple "You grant a target +x speed for one round, and sometimes they ignore OA's" which will almost certainly not be enough for the warlord fans,

Thirdly, there is the buffing. The obvious route to go with this would be granting advantage, but that diminishes the value of every other way to gain advantage. The other way to go is with some +x or +ydz on attacks and damage math, but that breaks bounded accuracy, and will cause people who hate things like the sharpshooter and greatweapon master feats to pop a blood vessel, so it's arguably worse.

Fourthly is the issue of scaling, most of these solutions can't be easily stretched out over 20 levels. If it was a subclass, you wouldn't need to stretch nearly as far. But getting the class set up from level 1 is going to result in more than a bit of front-loaded ability which will make the character boring to level up. The best way to patch this would be to give out debuffs, but that runs contrary to the idea of never attacking by yourself. Also, debuffs scale as well as buffs will (which could mean not at all unless you want to break bounded accuracy), though at least you could throw in a few conditions. And to top it all off, once you get the core class done you still have to come up with multiple subclasses, which will leave you scraping the bottom of the barrel for exclusive ideas.

Healing, ironically, is the least problematic of all the things they can do. We already have a few mechanics we can borrow from. Just give them a limited resource pool and a bonus action and you would be good to go. Though they will be severely subpar healers if they cannot cure more than hp damage, which may not be possible if people wish to keep them "mundane".
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
Interesting you would bring up Dispel Magic.
Dispel Magic, anti-magic - magic is very much a thing in 5e, to suggest otherwise frankly borders on the quixotic.

The repeated points I keep reading are that a class should be called "warlord" from level 1 (which snubs everyone else who has to wait until 2 or 3 for their favorite class)
Every full class that was in a PH1 is a full class in the 5e PH under the same name, except the Warlord. I don't think 'everyone' is waiting to play an Assassin or Illusionist, which only appeared in past-edition PH1's as sub-classes, and are sub-classes in the 5e PH. It's a tad silly to get bent out of shape and claim being 'snubbed' for something so trivial, but, if you do want to go there, the snubbing of 4e fans by singling out the only new class presented in the 4e PH1 for exclusion is something that's long overdue to be redressed.

and the "lazylord" should be a thing again.
Hopefully not under that name, which was a charop colloquialism. ;)

And it's the level 1 lazylord which is what causes all the problems.
Well, that's nice to know. Since that clears the Tactical, Inspiring, Resourceful, Bravura, Skirmish, and Insightful versions of wrongdoing.

As cognitive-disequilibrium inducing as a mechanic that lets one player delegate his actions to others' characters may seem, it is a nifty mechanical alternative to the 3e pacisfit for a PC that contributes in a less combative mode, and, without of the magical & clerical baggage of the pacifist, that's something that covers quite a range of genre supporting-cast types.

you would have to bring back multiple out-of-turn actions
Out of turn actions are a thing in 5e, and Rapid Attack is not the first/only way to get a little more than one Reaction going on between turns. So that doesn't seem a huge problem. Whether it requires a Reaction or not, an action-grant wouldn't disrupt the action economy, because it's 0 sum (no reaction) or negative sum (reaction required). 5 characters, 4 of which take their own actions, one of which grants his action consistently, take 5 actions, just like every other 5-character party. If a reaction is required to receive the granted action, they actually come out behind in the action economy. There's simply no danger there, at all.

Warlords were infamous for moving PC's around the battlefield
Actually, bards and invokers did no small amount of it, either, so did fighters. Not a big deal. 5e lets characters split up their move, something 4e characters couldn't do easily. There are difference between the systems, it's up to the designers to come up with the details of how to handle a concept in the slightly different action economy.

In 5e, positioning is less important than the consequences of positioning. In 4e, you might move an ally out of harms way and thus foil an attack, in 5e the move would be incidental. In 4e you might move an ally into flanking for Combat Advantage (one of many, many ways to grant CA, which didn't stack), in 5e you might simply grant Advantage (one more of many ways to grant Advantage, which doesn't stack).
No problem there.


but doing so out of turn is going to exasperate the problems listed above.
There not problems, at all, so their exacerbation should be a non-issue.

Thirdly, there is the buffing.
There's plenty of magical buffing going around in 5e, a non-magical source of it will hardly break the game. Next spurious non-issue, please.

Fourthly is the issue of scaling
Action grants scale naturally - as your allies get better, their actions get better. 'Mazing, that. Classes all advance at the same pace, so parties don't naturally diverge much in level like they did prior to 3e. As usual when it comes to scaling, BA is a third rail, so you wouldn't touch that, while hps & damage can scale like gangbusters. It sounds like a design consideration, but not a problem.

One laughable corner case - comparable to the ol bag o rats, really - that came up early in 4e diatribes, was the Stadium of Warlords. You get a few xillion low-level Warlords in a stadium cheering on their favorite gladiators and the contest turns into a blur of granted actions. Funny. Not a real issue, of course. I mean, stadium full of apprentice wizards and you can do pointlessly high damage to anything that happens to be in the stadium where their ranges overlap. Doesn't mean even one dragon has ever died that way.

But getting the class set up from level 1 is going to result in more than a bit of front-loaded ability
Nah. You no more have to give the Warlord all his cool manuevers and tactics at 1st level than you'd need to give the wizard all his spells - or even all the 1st level spells - at 1st level. A selection of the basics, improvements that are level-gated. It's not rocket science.

would be to give out debuffs, but that runs contrary to the idea of never attacking by yourself
Not really, you could distract an enemy without attacking him, for one obvious example.

And to top it all off, once you get the core class done you still have to come up with multiple subclasses, which will leave you scraping the bottom of the barrel for exclusive ideas.
There were already 6 different warlord builds in 4e, plus an archer variant, and the notorious charop lazylord. 8 sub-classes was the /most/ a full class received in the PH. The hard part will be deciding which to leave for later or consolidate.

Healing, ironically, is the least problematic of all the things they can do.
The kerfluffle about martial healing and the misrepresentation of fighters as 'casting spells' in the edition war /is/ ironic juxtaposed with the 5e fighter healing itself non-magically and, well, actually casting spells. But the edition war's over. There's nothing conceptually the Warlord needs that 5e doesn't have at least teeny, vestigial examples of here and there, it's just a matter of fleshing out all that neglected design space again and bringing back the one PH1 Core class still missing from 5e.

Fans of the Warlord have been remarkably patient. That patience doesn't mean they should continue to be excluded from the 5e family.
 

CapnZapp

Legend
I think all attempts at providing a Warlord so far only serves as insults to those wanting a real warlord.

A proper Warlord needs to be its own class, since there does not exist a class with no magic with baseline martial abilities. Removing spells from something as Cleric or ranger simply is too kludgey.

The Warlord would probably be a d8 class with martial weapons and medium armor. Probably extra attack at level 5 for parity with other "martial" classes (paladin, barbarian, ranger).

There are two main design challenges as I see it. Awarding completely unmagical but still fully effective "martial healing" is not one of them - the haters will simply have to not buy this product.

Instead, I'm thinking of:

#1: since this character won't primarily deal damage from his own weapon, what stops him from going Cha/Dex and dumping Str?

I strongly believe a Warlord should be given incentive to not dump Strength. Since the only existing real minmax incentive is that you're allowed to use greatweapons (not even heavy armor is an incentive, since light armor plus Dex is just as good), the design should probably include a few abilities that key off Strength. Not to such a degree the Warlord can't go Dex; but enough to at least make it a real choice.

#2: the lack of "basic attacks" in 5E. The core ability of a Warlord is and must be the ability to give away his own actions and his own attacks to others, without any real limitations.

But this utterly breaks the game. A rogue's Sneak Attack, for instance, is definied as "once per turn". If the Warlord can give the rogue one more Sneak Attack every round, that's simply too good.

The design needs to take much more control over the actual effects of the warlord's gifted attacks. That's where the distinction between "a simple attack" and a "full attack" comes in - both 3e and 4e used such a distinction.

The warlord can give away attacks that mean the recipient makes a whack, adding weapon damage to ability modifier... and that's it. Any extras needs to be defined by the Warlord class, not the recipient's class.
 

"Need" to fill out the range of plausible casters, perhaps. (Indeed, it may be a bit over-filled as it is). There's a lot of unexplored design space for non-casters, though. Both in terms of ground already tread in a past edition PH1, the Warlord as a non-magical support-contributing class & 'battlefield control' and other not-just-DPR builds in 3.5, to similar ideas that only scratched the surface (Marshal in the 3.0-compatible D&D minis game, 'controller'-like martial exploits, & martial practices in 4e), to completely new ideas opened up by 5e's concept-first philosophy of class design.
Rules for magic tend to be more explicit, since they're not something covered by common sense. The DM can use common sense on rulings for most physical activities (whether or not someone can pull a rug, swing from a chandelier, kick a sword up into their hand, etc). That doesn't work with magic, so there needs to be rules.

A "leader" is a roleplaying niche for characters. Like the diplomancer/ face or the womanizer. It's covered in the broadest sense by Charisma ability checks but the rest is left to the player. The player says they're inspiring and they are.
It's also odd to take a character role of "leader" and assign it to a single class. It is a little like having a "diplomat" class. Or a con artists. There could easily be a "swindler" class that excels in disguises, tricking people into revealing information, reading tells, winnng trust, etc. It's a big archetype that's distinct from rogues. (The show Leverage or the movie Ocean's Every leven really shows how a thief and grifter are distinct. And I doubt anyone from The Sting should have evasion and sneak attack.)

But, at the end of the day, the leader has been covered. There's a feat, a bard subclasses, and two fighter subclasses that touch on its abilities. Each of those appeals to some fans of the archetype. There's less pressure for a full class, which would also make those options redundant. In contrast, there's a lot of other builds and archetypes that haven't been covered once, let alone four times. "Not perfectly replicating a class from an old edition" isn't a strong enough reason to go back to it again.
 

plisnithus8

Adventurer
I love the idea of the kensai but the one they released in the previously UA was garbage it needs work and then it will be fine but in it's current form underwhelming

I have a homebrew 5e Oriental Adventures campaign and came up with this for a kensai:

Screen Shot 2017-02-19 at 10.27.13 AM.png

Screen Shot 2017-02-19 at 10.27.33 AM.png
 

The topic was new classes, not how to muddle through until a class you want gets here, let alone try to design one. ;)
As a new class, the Warlord is going to need some sort of system to determine how powerful their abilities are, and how often they are going to be used. Everything at-will? Superiority dice? An ability progression similar to spell slots in a caster class?
As the class with the most similar in-play concept, I mentioned the Valor Bard.

The Warlord would probably be a d8 class with martial weapons and medium armor. Probably extra attack at level 5 for parity with other "martial" classes (paladin, barbarian, ranger).
I'd suggest not extra attack, but ability to both make an attack and grant a maneuver at 5th level.
#1: since this character won't primarily deal damage from his own weapon, what stops him from going Cha/Dex and dumping Str?

I strongly believe a Warlord should be given incentive to not dump Strength. Since the only existing real minmax incentive is that you're allowed to use greatweapons (not even heavy armor is an incentive, since light armor plus Dex is just as good), the design should probably include a few abilities that key off Strength. Not to such a degree the Warlord can't go Dex; but enough to at least make it a real choice.
Take a leaf from the Bo9S: have many warlord abilities trigger off a successful attack. That way the warlord has to actually get martial rather than being able to dump physical stats and turn into a Lore Bard.

Wasn't that actually how a lot of Warlord abilities worked previously?

#2: the lack of "basic attacks" in 5E. The core ability of a Warlord is and must be the ability to give away his own actions and his own attacks to others, without any real limitations.

But this utterly breaks the game. A rogue's Sneak Attack, for instance, is definied as "once per turn". If the Warlord can give the rogue one more Sneak Attack every round, that's simply too good.
May just have to add a rider to the Warlord's ability that allows their ally to make a single attack "As if it was their turn." or similar wording. So a Rogue couldn't use it to get sneak attack twice in a round, but could use it to get sneak attack damage if they hadn't pulled off a sneak attack during their actual round.

That or the Warlord's attack granting ability is limited to dealing weapon damage + Warlord's Int/Cha modifier rather than the Warlord's ally being able to apply the full power of their capabilities in the granted attack.

The design needs to take much more control over the actual effects of the warlord's gifted attacks. That's where the distinction between "a simple attack" and a "full attack" comes in - both 3e and 4e used such a distinction.
The Warlord being able to grant an ally to make an additional full attack sequence rather than a single attack sounds like an option for a higher-level ability that costs more resources.

The warlord can give away attacks that mean the recipient makes a whack, adding weapon damage to ability modifier... and that's it. Any extras needs to be defined by the Warlord class, not the recipient's class.[/QUOTE]
 

Tony Vargas

Legend
As a new class, the Warlord is going to need some sort of system to determine how powerful their abilities are, and how often they are going to be used.
Yes it will. I hate to speculate about things like that, though, until there's a playtest version or something to discuss. 5e class design is concept-first, and the Warlord concept exists in formal-Role-constrained form in its 4e incarnation, and in what fans did with it to push the envelope a tad.

I guess one way to put it is that the Warlord class concept would represent heroic-fantasy character archetypes who possess exceptional talents, skills, personality attributes, even ineffable 'gifts,' meaning/connection to others, or 'destiny' that allow them to bring out the heroic and even supernatural potential of their allies to the fullest.


Rules for magic tend to be more explicit, since they're not something covered by common sense.
Heroic determination and daring-do absolutely defy common sense, and fantasy wouldn't be fantasy without heroism anymore than it would be without magic. Fantasy does cover a spectrum from magic taking a very low, mainly enabling profile, to, less traditionally as in the Potterverse, being virtually the whole show. D&D, ironically, for being decades ahead of the trend, covers the latter lavishly, and the former barely at all (though it clearly tried, early on, with rapidly scaling hps and saving throws). That's a failing of D&D that has been addressed in past editions with varying degrees of success (the Warlord being the high water mark of /nearly/ balancing martial with other character types), and which 5e has not yet risen to the challenge of taking on, itself. The Warlord, done well enough, would go a long way towards it, though there is so much ground to cover, at /least/ one more martial full class would be advisable. Not to mention some modules to address running campaigns where magic has a less direct role in adventuring.

A "leader" is a roleplaying
First, you need to realize that you're inserting 'leader' into this conversation.

Originally Posted by Tony Vargas View Post
"Need" to fill out the range of plausible casters, perhaps. (Indeed, it may be a bit over-filled as it is). There's a lot of unexplored design space for non-casters, though. Both in terms of ground already tread in a past edition PH1, the Warlord as a non-magical support-contributing class & 'battlefield control' and other not-just-DPR builds in 3.5, to similar ideas that only scratched the surface (Marshal in the 3.0-compatible D&D minis game, 'controller'-like martial exploits, & martial practices in 4e), to completely new ideas opened up by 5e's concept-first philosophy of class design.
See the word 'leader' in there? No. You're intentionally bringing up an edition-war screed that was semantic and completely invalid even then, to deflect the conversation from the reality that D&D /needs/ more martial options to work towards it's goal of covering more playstyles than past editions, and needs to bring back the only Core class excluded from the PH to work towards it's goal of inclusiveness of fans of past editions.

Of course, who (if anyone - IMX, it's usually no one) gets a formal position of leadership in a party is a matter of background & story. Who, among the players, tends to make decisions that other players go along with is entirely a matter of table dynamics, and may well be entirely separate from the who, if anyone, is wearing the IC mantle of leadership. Neither of those have anything to do with the social, tactical, & other skills that help bring a team together to face combat and other adventuring challenges together. Those are functions of character ability, not the player, nor even the character's place in its fictional society. Having character abilities that model that sort of thing is perfectly legitimate, and 5e has a few, very minor things that do that, already. Objecting to something like a full Warlord class because we already have Inspiring Leader, is like demanding all casters be removed because we already have Magic Initiate: utter nonsense, completely at odds with the manifest design philosophy of 5e.

We cannot build anything more than vaguely suggestive in concept of a 4e Warlord or 3.5 battlefield-control Fighter (among other outre builds). We have only 5 out of ~40 sub-classes in the PH that are non-magical, and they all contribute little to the success of an encounter beyond DPR. That's fans of past editions being excluded from the big tent. That stories the DM can't tell with the standard game. The Warlord is an opportunity for 5e to move towards those goals: inclusiveness for fans of all editions, expanded support for playstyles possible in each of those editions - and more.

Let's put aside the prejudices - and, for the sake of peace and decency, the disingenuous illogic & misrepresentations motivated by those prejudices - of the edition war, and adopt a live-and-let-live attitude as we all play the same game, each group in our favorite way.
 
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CapnZapp

Legend
Take a leaf from the Bo9S: have many warlord abilities trigger off a successful attack. That way the warlord has to actually get martial rather than being able to dump physical stats and turn into a Lore Bard.
Sorry I am completely missing how you can make that response to me talking about how to encourage Warlords to use Strength.

(Merely requiring the Warlord to be able to hit the monsters does nothing to promote Strength. You can hit things just fine with Dex and Finesse)

Perhaps you read "Cha" when I wrote "Dex"...? :confused:
 

CapnZapp

Legend
The design needs to take much more control over the actual effects of the warlord's gifted attacks. That's where the distinction between "a simple attack" and a "full attack" comes in - both 3e and 4e used such a distinction.
The Warlord being able to grant an ally to make an additional full attack sequence rather than a single attack sounds like an option for a higher-level ability that costs more resources.
No, I wasn't talking about giving away full attack sequences.

I was talking about the distinction both 3e and 4e makes between a "simple" no-baggage-attached attack, and one where your full class baggage comes attached.

In 4e, a basic attack is an at-will that simply is weapon die plus ability modifier. As opposed to the at-wills, encounter, utility and daily attacks granted to you by your class. The game uses this in lots of places, granting you a basic attack which then can't be loaded will all the powerful riders of regular attacks.

In 3e, the game separates between a "full attack" and a regular "attack". The first one allows you to unload your full sequence of attacks but limits movement to a 5ft step.
(I believed a rogue needed to take a "full attack" to apply sneak damage, but that turned out not to be the case).

---

What I am talking about is that 5E lacks the terminology to separate between "a regular attack, one that you can apply any game effect to" (I don't know: paladin smites; sneak damage; the +10 from greatweapon mastery just to pick three) and a "restricted limited attack that is ability plus weapon and nothing else".
 

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