D&D 5E Dealing with a trouble player and a major blow up

JamesonCourage · Jun 13, 2015

Majoru Oakheart said:
I've posted about one of my players before. There is a fairly long thread about it. [SNIP]

I keep going over it in my mind and I can't figure out what to do. Any thoughts or suggestions?

I'm going to hold back on my thoughts on how you should react. I have them, but they're mostly nothing new now that we're seven pages deep.

I did want to respond to say that I have read your posts on this player before, and your social group before. You know, your posts about your friends. Generally, friends are an important part of people's lives. With that in mind, I wanted to tell you that I'm sorry you're going through this. Yes, D&D is a game, but as it has affected your friendship with various people, it has undoubtedly led to very real, negative emotions. And that just sucks.

So I wanted to say that I'm sorry you have to go through something that sucks. I don't want to downplay it, or dismiss it. There's probably some amount of real anxiety underneath the frustration and anger and resentment. But that's okay. That's human, and that's normal. And I wanted someone to communicate that.

At the end of the day, yes, D&D is just a game. But it's okay to be passionate about it. It's understandable that real drama can arise from our passions. And, when we account for the human factor (your relationship with your friend [the GF], the player who you've had trouble with, their relationship with one another and with your mutual friends, etc.), things can get messy. And that's okay. It sucks, but it's understandable.

Anyway, you have a lot of advice here to read over and think about. You have a place to vent more, if you need it. But at the end of the day, just know that it's okay to feel those emotions. It's normal. Feel them, process them, and settle on a solution that soothes those negative emotions in the long term. That's my opinion, at least.

People say D&D isn't worth the drama. I think sometimes it makes sense for it to spill over. Life, though... that's not worth going through if you constantly feel anxious and angry and resentful and frustrated. Do what you need to do to make peace with your feelings and put them behind you. Sometimes it's just venting and accepting a situation, sometimes it's a life change. Find what works for you. It's your life.

Sorry for the long post. Stay strong. You've got this gamer's emotional support, at least. Good luck, Majoru, and happy hunting.

spinozajack · Jun 13, 2015

Majoru Oakheart said:
He isn't nearly as bad in that Dnd game because his gf runs the game. His character still irritates me because he has absolutely no personality and is a bunch of stats. He often forgets his own character's name because it just doesn't matter to him. But luckily he is so forgettable that I often forget he's there.

Quite aside from the other tantrums this guy has thrown, if any player is so uninvested in their characters they can't even remember their name or show up half the time, they're out. We were forced to boot out one of our oldest friends for these kinds of reasons. People's time is valuable, a DM must spend many times more time making the game than a player must, and that time investment should be respected. Otherwise, it's an issue of lack of empathy or consideration. I don't expect players to think up every inch of backstory to their PCs who might die, but I do expect them to remember their own names. Honestly, I'm starting to think that the problem here is partially yours, for having tolerated him for so long. The older I get, the more I realize I just don't have time for losers. And although my circle of friends has gradually diminished as a result, friendship is much more of quality and not quantity, and of quality and not duration as well.

spinozajack · Jun 13, 2015

JamesonCourage said:
At the end of the day, yes, D&D is just a game. But it's okay to be passionate about it. It's understandable that real drama can arise from our passions.

Agree 100%. It's a sad state of affairs if you're a person without any passion, and there is no objective reason why your love, your career, your legacy, your contributions, the books on your shelf, should be any more important to you than your hobbies. People often say on this website, "it's just a game", which is a different way of them saying, it's not a way of life for them. They haven't internalized a level of importance to this hobby that living without it would leave a serious void that would be hard to replace (even with videogames or other RPGs). Good for them. But they don't get to decide what's an appropriate level of passion to feel about something. Perspective is a good thing to have, but I would never judge someone for looking more forward to a weekly night of D&D than coming home to a nagging wife and mortgage bills and disrespectful brats. If you want the ugly truth, happiness is often found in the little things, those times spent out of the real world. I don't say this for myself, I'm perfectly content in every way, but I have lived through hardship and my various passions including D&D have helped take my mind off it and made me yearn for the next adventure. I owe those passions my sanity and success.

I once had a listless friend (who is rather super successful now), constantly just smoking doobies and not getting excited about much. He once remarked to me, when I showed excitement and enthusiasm for a certain DJ coming to town that I was going to dance to with friends (this was in my early 20s), and he said he was jealous when he saw that kind of passion that had left him. Eventually it returned, but it's a precious thing, so hold on to it when you have it, and never let people belittle that. Passion is what makes life worth living. It's what makes you excited to be alive, and forget everything else. What can be more important than that? Without that, you're on a creek without a paddle.

Dannyalcatraz · Jun 13, 2015

iserith said:
This is how the OP perceives the reaction of the player and how he or she reports it to us.

As I said, MO is no different than anyone else, and is probably slanting things to minimize his culpability.

This conclusion, however, misses the point:

What I see is a hot mess with multiple issues contributing to the event that was described. I will not exclude the possibility that the DM's approach contributed to the fallout.

Honestly, I've never seen so much resistance to some simple self-reflection. "What could I have done differently?" would be the very first place I'd go when faced with this kind of situation. I think this is a prudent measure.

Nobody has said they're opposed to introspection.

BUT, as presented, the player in question has been problematic not only to MO, but also in the games of others. Even the GF is having issues with him. He's having problems with everyone- that means the problem is not related in any way to MO's DM style.

Which means that introspection is likely pointless. Garbage in, garbage out. MO's introspection would be starting from a flawed premise: that there is some way in which he could have handled things differently that would have resulted in different behavior.

If I make a meal that includes an ingredient that has been unknowingly contaminated, it is pointless for me to analyze how I could have changed the meal, because as long as I included that ingredient, the result would be the same.

iserith · Jun 13, 2015

Dannyalcatraz said:
As I said, MO is no different than anyone else, and is probably slanting things to minimize his culpability.

Dannyalcatraz said:
He's having problems with everyone- that means the problem is not related in any way to MO's DM style.

I disagree. I think it's worth considering as a contributing factor to the situation.

Dannyalcatraz · Jun 13, 2015

Very well.

S'mon · Jun 13, 2015

Majoru Oakheart said:
Also, at least 5 or the 10 regular players are friends of his. All of them would stop coming if he did. They are also all friends of mine outside of D&D. But they are better friends with him. If I confront him or tell him to stop coming, it would likely mean halving the number of people showing up for our events while simultaneously losing a bunch of friends.

I keep going over it in my mind and I can't figure out what to do. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Stop being a doormat. I would have booted players for far far less than this. They've got used to being able to abuse you - you've allowed this abusive situation to develop over time, so it's partially your fault. You need to boot him and anyone else who won't behave with a reasonable level of respect. Stop being a doormat and you will get decent players.

GameOgre · Jun 13, 2015

Sorry but because of the many things you have said in your posts, the issue is one you can't get over. Notice I said you can't get over. The overwhelming issue is your dislike of this guy who is supposed to be your friend but from the get go struck you as stupid and by your own words anything he says you view in a harsh light and think is stupid.

That isn't a friend.

Also your games do not seem to change depending on who you are playing with. That is just bad DMing.

As a DM you are primarily a entertainer! Sure you do it for Fun but your job is to make sure everyone has a good time. Instead you seem to go out of your way to make this guy seem stupid and frustrate him. Every example you gave was one where you COULD have taken a path for fun but choose instead to take the unfun path and one aimed directly at him.

There was no pluming? Hate to break it to you genius but there was pluming or at least medieval fantasy equivalents to it if you chose to have them. Instead you chose the unfun path of you are stupid and everything you say is wrong(to the player). Guess what? He doesn't know JACK about the fantasy medieval realities of your particular game world. I doubt you have much more of a clue than he does(that isn't a shot at you, this is a game and we all know just the basics if that).

No wonder the guy got upset, this happens every week? Geez!

Look man, I'm not saying this guy doesn't have issues. Sounds like he does. So do you. Also your DMing sounds not as good as you think it does.

Stop DMing for a bit and get back to the basics. Why do you DM? If it's because it's fun and you enjoy bringing others fun then by all means, work on your skills and eventually start back up but do not DM for someone you so obviously dislike.

The first rule of DMing is to stay impartial. Don't play favorites and Don't pick on the players. You violated that rule at every turn. I am not saying he didn't behave outrageously, what I am saying is you need to let him work on him and you work on you.

Also you need to really get down to what is going on with you and these people. This guy seems to be the center of your friend circle and you obviously have issues with that. The standard answer of do not play with people you are not compatible with you seem to be ignoring because that is all you have to play with besides the randoms. Don't ignore it.

Edited to add.

This guy is obviously a problem player. Normally you could boot him or turn his energy to the good and make him a asset. There are a vast number of advice threads dealing with that. However the much larger issue I felt that needed to be dealt with was your own issues. Problem players will always haunt your games. If it's a healthy game it can survive.

Wik · Jun 13, 2015

[MENTION=57914]GameOgre[/MENTION] A little harsh, but I generally agree with the statement that GMs should be entertainers first and foremost, and that MO does seem to have it in for this player a little bit.

Granted, the player's personality is not good at all. Rage quitting is never fun, and the few times I've seen it in a D&D game, I've put a quick damper on it. It's just awful to be around.

That being said, the GM has consistently mentioned his dislike of this person. I've GMed for players I'm not really friends with. I've GMed for a few people I don't even particularly like. But I've never GMed for people I actively dislike. What's the point? Continuing to do so, when you know you dislike the person, is a bad place to put yourself in, and it's one that's going to negatively affect your GMing position. It's hard to be impartial when you get frustrated with everything a person says.

The plumbing is a good example. A lot of castles did have plumbing. The Romans certainly did. In my own game, a lot of buildings have plumbing. Now, if a player just said "I'm going to go to the castle gate, say I'm the plumber, and get in there", it wouldn't work. But if he went through a few preparations, or had a skill in plumbing, I'd give it an honest shot. Maybe he paints a cart with the plumbing company moniker? Or he rounds up some pipes and tools? If he does one or two things, I'd suggest a few other things that might help (I figure once a player gets the ball rolling, the GM can and should help with logistical info that would occur to the PCs eventually).

If this was a player who was smart, I might make the whole thing fairly hard. Castle guards poking through the gear, following the PC around once he gets in the castle, etc. But if it's a player who rarely floats a plan, or is maybe a bit slower? Ideally, I'd let it have at least some degree of success.

But if I just disliked the guy? I think I'd be prone to saying "nah, there's no plumbing in the castle. Try something else". And that's no fun.

I once had a player I wasn't a huge fan of. No real reason - just didn't like the guy. He was kind of rude, I found, and in my little neck of Canada, being rude is sort of akin to being a smoker on a bus. Anyways, he went out of his way to make a sorcerer who was stuck in a deal with Pazuzu. So, as GM, I tried to make this a thing, by having Pazuzu offer all sorts of help if the PC would just do X. And he never bit - even when the gift was free, no strings attached. This frustrated me - "why go out of your way to be a sorcerer of Pazuzu if you don't at all want to interact with him!?". So I started trying to force this issue.

This was a bad tactic, because it lead to more clashes, and more bits where the player would say no. What I SHOULD have done was asked him what he was looking for, and either tried to make that goal work, or suggest something new. He really wanted to play a good guy who was forced into something he didn't like, and fight the temptation... but I assumed that he wanted to play a MOSTLY good guy who dipped a bit into temptation and then fought his way back. With most players, I could have caught on and adjusted my style.

But with a guy I disliked? I assumed he was stupid for playing this sort of character, and didn't try to correct my own behaviour until it was almost too late.

Anyways, my two cents.

S'mon · Jun 13, 2015

On the 'plumbing' - make sure players have the info their OCs would - if castles have no plumbing, tell the player and let him take a different action.

But the general advice to stop being a doormat and boot abusive players stands. If you fancy this girl, well maybe if she sees you not being a doormat she'll reciprocate!