D&D 5E Bounded Accuracy scenario in actual play (low CR mobs vs higher level PCs)

Li Shenron · Nov 26, 2015

Sacrosanct said:
One of the things I liked on paper about bounded accuracy was that monsters had a lot longer staying power. A low HD/CR creature would stay effective a lot longer in game play than in previous editions and still be a threat.

Great game report!

You got me a bit confused first when talking about "staying power", as this made me think first that you meant it would last long in battle, but instead you meant it is still useful for the DM for a long time in a campaign.

But you skipped a bit over the last part of the story which I think it would be the most telling of bounded accuracy

You mention that they used Sleep and Conjure Animals (I guess choosing the options with most critters at once?). These indeed are "mass weapons" that should work well against lots of smaller monsters. So what was it instead, that made the fight challenging? My guess would be that characters who had basically only 1 attack per round were suffering the most, so they would be "slow" against the kobolds, which instead (as a whole) get plenty of attacks per round.

In general, I think the worst that can happen (for the PCs) is if the DM choose for the small monsters to "focus fire" on one PC at a time. That's bad because even with low attack scores and low damage, they still get a lot of hits. Did you consciously avoid using this tactic?

All in all, I'm happy to know that bounded accuracy is working

Would be also nice to know how many is a good number of small monsters that generally achieves the purpose of having an encounter as interesting as yours without starting to be too much.

Sacrosanct · Nov 26, 2015

Li Shenron said:
But you skipped a bit over the last part of the story which I think it would be the most telling of bounded accuracy You mention that they used Sleep and Conjure Animals (I guess choosing the options with most critters at once?). These indeed are "mass weapons" that should work well against lots of smaller monsters. So what was it instead, that made the fight challenging? My guess would be that characters who had basically only 1 attack per round were suffering the most, so they would be "slow" against the kobolds, which instead (as a whole) get plenty of attacks per round.
.

Sleep took out the regular kobolds and slingers because it starts with the lowest HP first. Even though the dragonshields were all still up, and thus the shield wall was still up barring the PCs, it was effective in preventing that focus fire on the PCs. Which was a good thing, because they would have targeted the PC casters first. A dozen attack rolls (all at advantage), even if the damage was only 1d6+1 each? Pretty devastating. So the party did well to neutralize them.

Conjure animals is up to DM discretion, so I just rolled randomly to determine the CR and # of creatures summoned. That is one of the most underrated spells in the game. It was highly effective. And you're right, the martial PCs struggle against mobs, because while they can pretty much automatically kill one with each attack, they only get one or two attacks. And when against 20 or so creatures, it's only chipping away at them.

But from a strictly numbers perspective, a mob of low CR creatures against higher level PCs resulted in a fairly lengthy combat where the party had to expend pretty much all of their resources to win. So that clearly tells me that mobs of low CR monsters have a lot of staying power all through the range of PC levels. If the party didn't have a full range of 3rd level spell slots available? They very well could have TPK'd.

Eltab · Nov 27, 2015

I tried to swarm my L10 Tiamat party with kobolds in an ambush, built around an impromptu "toll gate" across the highway. The kobolds charged in from both rear flanks.
The druid cast Plant Growth (move = x 1/5) over them and the Wizard cast Fireball into the dense vegetation. That took out half the kobolds before they got to close range. The boss failed a CHR check - no painless easy win like he had promised - so the rest ran away. (I had them scatter across the full 180* to the PCs' rear, to prevent a repeat.)
The boss and his lieutenants did a good job defending their toll booth - the players wanted a short rest immediately after the encounter was done - but all went down in the end.

I'm going to have to come up with a better ambush and plan before I try again. The OP suggestion sounds like fun !

Blackwarder · Nov 27, 2015

Bounded accuracy is one if the best and greatest selling points of 5e.

During the summer I ran a one-shot with a party of 3 optimized level 12 PCs through a level 5-10 AL adventure (forgot the name but it was the one where the green dragon invade Phlan) and I got to say that I ran it without changing anything and it was a fun and challenging adventure, at one point they picked a fight with 20 CR2 veterans, they lured them into an ambush and had 3 CR2 and one CR ½ NPC as allies and the fight drained a huge chunk of their resources.

On another game, a party of level 8 PCs encountered a goblin tribe, instead of fighting they spent the next two days avoiding them out of sheer fear and recruiting reinforcements from the local militia, it was one the best sessions we had.

Warder

Rhenny · Nov 28, 2015

Blackwarder said:
Bounded accuracy is one if the best and greatest selling points of 5e.

During the summer I ran a one-shot with a party of 3 optimized level 12 PCs through a level 5-10 AL adventure (forgot the name but it was the one where the green dragon invade Phlan) and I got to say that I ran it without changing anything and it was a fun and challenging adventure, at one point they picked a fight with 20 CR2 veterans, they lured them into an ambush and had 3 CR2 and one CR ½ NPC as allies and the fight drained a huge chunk of their resources.

On another game, a party of level 8 PCs encountered a goblin tribe, instead of fighting they spent the next two days avoiding them out of sheer fear and recruiting reinforcements from the local militia, it was one the best sessions we had.

Warder

I absolutely love how BA makes players/PCs fear mobs. I hated how in previous editions high level PCs had a blatant disregard for life when they encountered kobolds, goblins, orcs, etc. Now, there is some healthy respect when they are encountered in larger numbers.

I also love when my players avoid combat and try to find other solutions to their problems. BA helps with that too.

MythicFlair · Nov 29, 2015

I love bounded accuracy. The players get stronger, but they can't just completely ignore lower level monsters. It gives the DM something pretty close to the Minion concept from 4th edition (which was pretty awesome) without requiring a bunch of new versions of monsters, or weird "minion that is a higher level than the strongest regular version of this monster" situations.

derickmoore25 · Jan 3, 2016

I have a wierd habit of creating combined mosters to lessen rounds in combat but have a mob like increase. I tested it by making a giant fire beetle swarm it gets one attack that does the damage of 10 which is 50 with ten max rolls so around 25 average. It only had 40 hp so not a big threat but still an interesting creature.
I've also put a shield goblin and a rogue in the same square as one creature before just combined hp and use shield ac for front rogue ac for back. Give it multiattack and both get to attack.

Sword of Spirit · Jan 4, 2016

I'm also loving bounded accuracy--in combination with the Mob Rules in the DMG. It allows me to straight up apply hit point attrition to the party while allowing them to be cool (when they finally defeat hoards of creatures). Win-win.

I will say that spirit guardians is crazy good against melee mobs.

Li Shenron said:
In general, I think the worst that can happen (for the PCs) is if the DM choose for the small monsters to "focus fire" on one PC at a time. That's bad because even with low attack scores and low damage, they still get a lot of hits. Did you consciously avoid using this tactic?

I like to play it carefully in that regard myself. I role-play the monsters, but 9 times out of 10 monsters just aren't going to focus fire on one target. That's not how large groups fight. They rain down arrows on the party in general. I generally divide attacks evenly amongst the party. Of course, when there is a particular in-character reason for the monsters to focus fire...the party is going to have to deal with it.

Argyle King · Jan 4, 2016

How do the lower level creatures hit the PCs?

I'm a player in two different games, and, in both, it seems that monsters of our level struggle to hit us.

Sacrosanct · Jan 4, 2016

Johnny3D3D said:
How do the lower level creatures hit the PCs?

I'm a player in two different games, and, in both, it seems that monsters of our level struggle to hit us.

Even at higher levels, most PCs will only have an AC between 16 and 23 or so. An orc has a +5 to hit.

D&D 5E Bounded Accuracy scenario in actual play (low CR mobs vs higher level PCs)

Li Shenron

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