D&D 5E MTOF: Elves are gender-swapping reincarnates and I am on board with it

Sadras · May 29, 2018

Hussar said:
I really don't get these arguments. I guess I'm too selfish. I look at it like this: Does this new lore cost me anything? Is it going to make me do any more work or impact my game? No, it isn't. A player who wants to use these rules is free to do so and it's his or her character. They can fill their boots and good on them.

Which brings me to the second question - does it make other people happy? Yup, apparently it does. So, since it costs me nothing and makes other folks happy, what's the problem here? The mechanics are such that any world builder can easily ignore it - it is a rare trait after all. It doesn't cost you a single thing to add this to the game. And it makes other folks happy. What's in it for me to oppose that? What am I gaining? Or, better yet, what are you gaining by opposing this?

@Yaarel talks quite extensively about the change in elven lore. Thing is, it's not really a change. 1e limited elves to 12th level magic users. Until 3e, elves were NEVER the greatest wizards in the game. In 3e, baseline elves didn't gain an Int or Cha bonus at all, so, nope, other than some campaign specific variants, elves were not the greatest wizards in the game. It wasn't until 4e with Eladrin that the lore and the mechanics actually matched - eladrin wizards were among the best in the game. But, we don't HAVE eladrin in 5e. Not in core anyway. Core 5e elves fit best with 1e to 3e elves. So, his entire complaint ignores what's actually written in the game.

So, I'll ask again, what is the cost to you to have this in the game?

I'm coming in rather late into this debate and I have not read the entire thread - but @Hussar to be fair to @Yaarel don't you argue along similar lines when it comes to D&D cosmology as presented in the books? How do you differentiate between yours and his argument?

CapnZapp · May 29, 2018

Mouseferatu said:
Some of us don't even consider it a price, but an added benefit.

Well that aside, I'm mainly cold to any fluff-related complaint.

Myself, I hated the apocalyptic changes brought on the Realms by 4E.

But know what? In my campaigns, that

never happened. Everything* is still just like as described by the FRCS :angel:

Riley37 · May 29, 2018

Lanefan said:
You sure about that?

Well, my understanding of "person" is rather broad. I'm not saying that they're all made of meat. I'm just saying, they count as people.

I myself am a normal human person, with typical human hobbies such as... um... drinking water. Not to mention glagtery. I had two human parents and they both had opposable thumbs, just like you, right?

http://www.terrybisson.com/page6/page6.html

CapnZapp · May 29, 2018

Glagtery

TheCosmicKid · May 29, 2018

CapnZapp said:
If a few gamers quit in disgurst over having to face that their fantasy world is now more like the real world...

Not that I disapprove of the underlying sentiment, but considering that we're talking about a race of fairy-folk magically changing the shape of their physical bodies through a ritual taught to them by their interventionist deity, you can see how I might find your phrasing here a little bit... odd.

Riley37 · May 29, 2018

If I ran a cleric in typical AL play, I could probably go a dozen sessions, without mentioning anything about worshipping or serving a god. I don't think the other players will care, so long as my PC casts Healing Word when their PCs drop to zero HP. I also doubt that a typical AL DM would ask what deity my PC claimed; she'll be too busy with the administrative side of AL play. Hm, actually, now I want to write and play an agnostic cleric with Knowledge domain, and the Sage background, just for the RP. "You can't stop the signal! Information wants to be free!"

Not that it matters, though, because this is a thread about elves, not about Yaarel and 5E; let him start his own thread, if he wants to learn anything from anyone's opinions on his position.

Hussar · May 29, 2018

Sadras said:
I'm coming in rather late into this debate and I have not read the entire thread - but @Hussar to be fair to @Yaarel don't you argue along similar lines when it comes to D&D cosmology as presented in the books? How do you differentiate between yours and his argument?

Heh, I never said I was consistent.

But, be that as it may, my complaint is that Planescape is a specific setting in the game that has largely taken over every part of the cosmology. So, yeah, I don't like it very much. OTOH, I'm not the one saying that D&D is destroyed because of it, nor am I making up facts in order to support my rant. Complaining that elves aren't mechanically the best wizards in D&D is a bit misleading considering that elves have NEVER been the best wizards in D&D. Complaining that clerics are tied to deities in the PHB is pretty misleading considering that that's been the baseline presumption of the game since day 1.

The difference here is that Planescape has been added to baseline D&D over the years to the point where we cannot actually separate out the two and, since I loathe Planescape, that has resulted in me pretty much ignoring everything planar for D&D. But, again, I can point to points in the game where Planescape wasn't true before but is now. [MENTION=58172]Yaarel[/MENTION] is simply making up his own facts as he goes along.

Sadras · May 29, 2018

pming said:
Sourcebooks like MToF, imnsho, don't "add" to the game as a whole...they codify and dictate

The trouble I am having with this statement is that I find every sourcebook codifies in some way. For which sourcebook is your statement not true?

This is anathema to the whole "a game of imagination" bedrock of what an RPG is.

You're suggesting setting books like my Mystara Gazetteers are an anathema?

Riley37 · May 29, 2018

TheCosmicKid said:
Not that I disapprove of the underlying sentiment, but considering that we're talking about a race of fairy-folk magically changing the shape of their physical bodies through a ritual taught to them by their interventionist deity, you can see how I might find your phrasing here a little bit... odd.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." The technology of changing the shape of the human body is getting more and more advanced; consider the difference between what's possible today, and what was possible when Gygax wrote 1E. The role of the Divine in that process is arguable, as with most matters involving the role of the Divine in the real world.

Fiction sometimes follows reality, sometimes surges ahead. Consider the difference in gender roles in the real world, between the 1960s and the 1980s; then consider the differences in gender roles in Starfleet, between the era of Captain Kirk and the era of Captain Picard. What if Kirk had been the first Earth human to learn about the Trill symbiotes, and their relationship with their hosts's sex and gender?

gyor · May 29, 2018

Hussar said:
5e. Light Domain cleric. Done. 100% strictly legal. No reference whatsoever to any diety.

What's the difference?

That legal for home play, but its against the AL rules so its against the rules of organized play. Clerics and those who take the Acolyte Feat has to choose a deity from either the PHB FR and Monster Deity lists, SCAG, MTOFs. Its right in the Adventurer's League Players Guide v7 except for the mention of MTOFs which has its own rules document at least umtil they update the ALPG to v8.