Pathfinder 1E A practical guide to Stealth

Stormonu

Legend

• Nov 3, 2013

• #11

ZenFox42 said:

Total Cover is better than "regular" Cover because if your opponents can't see you, they get no check at all.

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If Perception were spot-only, that would make sense, but even you stated that it covers the five senses. Behind the barrel example you give, someone could conceivably hear you, or if you'd been travelling through the typical dungeon sewers - smell you.

 

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Starfox

Adventurer

• Nov 3, 2013

• #12

I am still amazed at how much of these rules interpretations are conjecture - more or less guesswork based on a very obscure text.

 

Z

ZenFox42

First Post

• Nov 3, 2013

• #13

The other senses would be used when appropriate - if you're not moving, you're not making any sound, and only if the creature has the Scent ability would it be able to detect your presence behind the barrel. So sure, Total Cover wouldn't help any more against Scent (and the Stealth rules even explicitly cover trying to listen in a forest), but the vast majority of creatures use sight, so "Cover" vs. "Total Cover" usually makes a difference. Use whatever sense is appropriate, and use common sense to figure out what rules to apply.

FWIW, the PF developer who commented on the changes to the Stealth wording said something like "space was at a premium". Since they were publishing the rules in a *book*, they had to allocate only a certain number of words to each skill, feat, spell, etc. Pity they couldn't have allocated a few more to Stealth...

 

Starfox

Adventurer

• Nov 3, 2013

• #14

For the purpose of Stealth, how about:

Total concealment = total cover = invisibility

 

Z

ZenFox42

First Post

• Nov 3, 2013

• #15

I have learned (or at least come to the conclusion) that it is very ill-advised to call a situation by a specific game term, unless it means *exactly* that game term.

While Total C/C gives you all the "perks" of invisibility (can't be specifically targeted, 50% miss chance, etc.), I would never *call* it "invisibility" (or even mention the two in the same breath), because that means a very specific thing. And it could maybe lead people into thinking things like Stealth is invisibility, so they can prance about without having to make S/P checks.

Same with "concealment" - many spells say they provide "concealment", which might make the reader think they could "enter" Stealth while using the spell. Some spells like Displacement are careful in their wording to indicate they only provide the 20% miss chance of concealment, but others are not. A PF developer has specifically said that having a "blurry outline" (aka Blur spell) is not enough to "enter" Stealth, even tho that's all Blur says is that it "grants the subject concealment". So I think a lot of unnecessary debate and anguish has been caused by using the word "concealment" when what they meant was "20% miss chance", but they used "concealment" as a short-cut.

 

Starfox

Adventurer

• Nov 3, 2013

• #16

I agree, it is not the same in game terms, but total cover or concealment could gain (some of) the benefits of invisibility. However, as the rules are written now, you get a +10 bonus to Stealth from Improved cover but no bonus from total cover. If we do read total c/c as (similar to) invisibility, it gains a +20/+40 bonus, which would answer the question from [MENTION=52734]Stormonu[/MENTION] above.

Edit: A classic example of why you are right comes from the Stealth errata; the debate over what the benefits of the concealment mentioned in that errata really man. IMO, it simply means you can use stealth as if you were in cover, but the debate on the pazio forums was far from conclusive.

 

Z

ZenFox42

First Post

• Nov 3, 2013

• #17

I have 2 questions about that :

The +40 to Stealth for being invisible applies only to stationary creatures, and must assume that others have line-of-sight to you (in other words, could see you if you weren't invisible). Because if you're stationary and behind Total C/C, the others get no roll at all to see you. I can't see that saying you have a +40 to your Stealth behind Total C/C gives any benefit.

You mentioned a "+20/+40" bonus, and I'm confused about the +20. That only applies when you're moving, and Total C/C would have nothing to do with that.

 

Starfox

Adventurer

• Nov 3, 2013

• #18

You could be moving on the other side of a wall.

I think the +20 is actually a penalty for using a secondary sense (when sight doesn't work, observers must rely on sound, scent, etc)

I think the +40 is because you are immobile, you make less sound.

ZenFox42 said:

Because if you're stationary and behind Total C/C, the others get no roll at all to see you. I can't see that saying you have a +40 to your Stealth behind Total C/C gives any benefit.

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As I don't know where the underlined text comes from, I cannot answer this. Did it come from my theories earlier in this thread?

 

Z

ZenFox42

First Post

• Nov 3, 2013

• #19

I don't see anything in the RAW about secondary senses or making less sound. Probably (just now remembered it), the +20 is referring to noticing a stationary invisible creature (knowing that one is nearby), and +40 is for pinpointing its exact square.

Altho the RAW does not actually say "cannot see you", it does say this about Total C/C :
Total Cover (definition, RAW) : "You cannot draw any line from your square to your target's square without crossing a solid barrier"
That to me means you cannot see *any* portion of the target, because every portion is blocked by a solid barrier. Total Cover is being behind a box much larger than you, or around the corner of a wall.
Total Concealment (definition, RAW, paraphrased) : You do not have line-of-sight to the target
If you don't have line-of-sight to it, you can't see it. Total Concealment is being far enough away in a thick fog so that no part of you can be seen.

Since Stealth checks are only made when a creature might see you (RAW), then if they can't see any portion of you, they don't get a S/P check to see you. That's not explicitly stated in the RAW, but is a logical conclusion of the rules that are stated.

Thus being in Total C/C is better than any bonus you might want give to a Stealth check because you want to think of being in Total C/C as being "invisible". To my mind, there is no S/P check to make, so what's the point in giving it a bonus?

Cheers!

 

Starfox

Adventurer

• Nov 3, 2013

• #20

Seems a bit funny that because there is a wall between you and the observer, you suddenly become completely silent. A character in plate with a wall shield can have a Stealth bonus of -15, so even with a +40 modifier, he is not spot-proof. But it certainly makes adjudicating Stealth easier - the rest of the part is exactly one corner after the scout, with no chance of interfering.