Harassment in gaming

Libramarian

Adventurer
English capitalization rules mystify me. Sometimes I misspell things, too. did I misspell anything in my post? Any sentences end with prepositions? I may have used two spaces after punctuation.
Just wondering if you meant to do that :hmm:


If you look through her Tumblr, she has some screen caps of some of the harassing messages she's received. Some have Wyrd employee's names attached. But since they're screen caps, and made of pixels, I'm sure you would just say they're 'shopped.

I looked through all 11 pages of posts with the Malifaux tag and couldn't find any screencaps.

The owner of Wyrd says that they've repeatedly asked for evidence that one of their employees threatened her, but have never received it.

I think they should consider suing her for defamation.
 

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Libramarian

Adventurer
Last week, Baldur's Gate 2 received a DLC, Siege of Dragonspear. In it, there's a character who in a few lines of dialogue, mentions that they are transgender. The response has not been pleasant. The argument is that A) tthe existence of a trans character in the game is a break of suspension of disbelief, and 2) the inclusion of one is facilitating an agenda.

I've been looking into this as well. Both of those claims look fair to me.

A) It seems for many the trans character is not the most irritating part, it's the fact that they changed a NPC companion's personality from one who flirts with men to manipulate them, to one who mocks and bullies men into doing what she wants. The game is set between Baldur's Gate I and II, so this character has the former personality in the first game, then her personality changes for this game, and then it changes back for the second game. This certainly would strain one's suspension of disbelief.

2)(sic) One of the writers of the game has publicly stated that her goal is to remove sexist elements from the original Baldur's Gate. So they literally are pushing an agenda.
 

Obryn

Hero
There is a third option to belief and denial: skepticism. One is skeptical when they're withholding belief but open to changing their mind as further evidence comes to light.
So let's zoom out a bit, okay?

Instead of getting all Zapruder Film on a single blog post, can we acknowledge that there's a rather constant stream of first-hand experiences of harassment, groping, sexual assault, etc. from women gamers? Both in this thread and in others? Not everyone's experienced it, just like not everyone's harassed women.

Big picture here. Adding this to the rest of the evidence, are they just making it up?

2)(sic) One of the writers of the game has publicly stated that her goal is to remove sexist elements from the original Baldur's Gate. So they literally are pushing an agenda.
That agenda would be ...?

I mean, "Let's be less sexist than we were in the 90's" sounds like a pretty fair goal?
 

MechaPilot

Explorer
I believe she was harassed by a regular customer at the game store she worked at, and the owner didn't do enough to stop it. I'm glad he was reprimanded. I believe she has been groped at cons. That's awful and I support measures such as those mentioned by [MENTION=177]Umbran[/MENTION] upthread to try to make game stores and cons as safe and welcoming as possible for all.

I'm skeptical that a Canadian police officer told a woman reporting a rape "I'm not writing a report for a drunk slut" and hung up on her. I'm skeptical that a group of middle-aged men in a game store chanted in unison sexually abusive language to a thirteen year old girl and laughed as she ran away. This stuff is out of a '70s horror movie, not real life Winnipeg.

I've been reading the thread about this on the Malifaux game forum. At one point she says "men are worse than babies because at least babies know what breasts are for" (and this is a thread where the most inflammatory posts have been deleted!). On her Tumblr she says "gamers are the scum of the earth" and "nerds are the literal worst". She was not driven away from this game because she's a woman and they want it to be for men only. She was driven away because she demanded changes to the game that most of the other fans disagreed with and she trolled them for disagreeing with her.

I DO NOT condone threats of violence as a means to silence someone! But I think she should have been banned from their forum for trolling before that happened.

If a woman has been groped, the men and babies re: breasts comparison makes a great deal of sense for her to make, particularly while exasperated about the topic of sexual harassment/assault. The biological purpose of breasts is to feed babies after all.

As for your disbelief about the cop and the chant, I can't speak to what Winnipeg is like, but real life can very much be just as horrific as a horror film. Recall that Texas Chainsaw Massacre (a 1970s horror film) had elements inspired by real life murderer Ed Gein. Also, you should be aware that cops are not paragons of humanity. I'm sure we can all find articles online about cops who abused their authority by sexually assaulting women. If some cops are willing to sexually assault the women they pull over (and some very much are), then it's not much of a stretch at all to consider that some cops might react to a claim of rape as was described.

We also really don't know what experiences precede her supposed comments about gamers being scum and nerds being the worst (I say supposed because I am not going to scour her tumblr and other sites to try to disprove what she said in the article linked in the OP). We do not have a timeline of the harassment/assaults that's she's received and her comments about nerds and gamers.

Ultimately, we know for a fact that the terrorism against her occurred. Whether Wyrd was complicit or not in the terrorism against her is irrelevant to the existence of the problem of women being harassed and/or assaulted by members of the gaming community, a problem whose existence has been corroborated by multiple sources, including members of this forum.
 

Hussar

Legend
I've heard these horror stories many times, and I can't relate them to my play very well at all. In general, D&D doesn't generally allow players to be captured all that easily. It's far easier to kill players than capture them. That's probably a good thing.

It's very hard for me to get into the heads of anyone in the scene you describe. I have no idea what the motivations were, whether prurient, clueless, or to inflict degradation on a stranger. It just seems strange to me, not the least of which that they would be comfortable to play out a scene such as that with a complete stranger. I wouldn't be comfortable going into the details of a sexual scene with a friend, and any time any sexual contact occurs, it tends to be handwaved with, "You may assume whatever you think would occur, did occur." and we bang to a further scene.

I'll say this though, I've never once had a good experience gaming with strangers, and the only time I've ever played with strangers more than once, it was because I was the GM and I organized the group... and knew within 15 minutes that it was going to be a disaster, but continued for a few sessions out of my sense of obligation. In my experience, RPing - at least the part that isn't simply wargaming - is too intimate and too intense of an activity even when it isn't discussing sexual matters to do well and comfortably among strangers face to face.

That said though, I wouldn't mind forking out at some point to discussing consent issues at a gaming table, just because I can think of situations that have come up in play - always handled with a handwave as I said - which were to my mind at least parallel to rape either of male or female characters (to be feasted on by a vampire, for example). And I would love to have your thoughts on such situations, and how they ought to be handled, and whether players ought to be protected from them, and whether it matters if it is occurring in a spot that has already been established as 'safe' because you trust everyone present. And I wouldn't mind hearing your thoughts on related topics, such as the suitability of men playing female characters, which I can see regularly leading at some point to exploring the most unfamiliar terrain of that territory whether out of curiosity or prurience, and how you think GMs ought to handle it when it does.

Or in short, anything of practical significance rather than us fighting the great battles of the political sphere here.

But, what you're saying here pretty much dovetails with the original article's author. Why don't you play with strangers? If gamers are this welcoming community as others have claimed, shouldn't your experiences be very much an outlier? Thing is, they aren't. I 100% agree with you. Playing with strangers is very often a terrible experience. It goes from bad to worse.

So, why would you be surprised and why can you not relate to these experiences? If every time you've played with strangers it's been a bad experience, why would you expect other's experiences to be better?
 


Celebrim

Legend
I would suggest that it's the DM handwaving death into capture. I've handwaved death into capture several times, but that's because I think party death is boring (it really does cause the game to grind to an immediate halt). However, when I do it, I don't have the PCs raped by their captors. I'll have them ransomed back to their families (or a wealthy patron). I'll have them stripped of gear and left for dead. I'll have them geased to carry out a mission for their captors. I'll turn the jailbreak into a mini adventure. In short, things that keep the characters alive but further the story of the characters.

I guess this has never really been an issue because I never really handwave away rules. I might handwave away scenes that don't need to be played out, but things that actually effect the state of the character like whether you are captured or not don't get handwaved. And to the extent that they did happen, I'd try to turn it into an opportunity for the story to continue

But I admit I'm a bit troubled by a hard and firm rule that captives never get raped, because rape is unfortunately a pretty likely result of capture - particularly for women - but for men as well in many cases. And while I have no desire to play out such a scenario, it feels a bit odd to overlook the possibility, and a great many stories - both fictional and taken from history - involve rape or the threat of it. The "Shawshank Redemption" is a completely different story without rape. Rape plays a critical role in "Lawrence of Arabia". The truth is, soldiers are often raped. The scene in Lawrence of Arabia is based among other things off the historical fact that the Turkish army was rather infamous for using sodomy as a tool of humiliation and control of its subjugated peoples, captives and enemies. Real historical warfare between ancient peoples regularly involves rape as a tool of warfare and genocide. That sort of thing is occurring to the present day. Now, as I said, I've never felt the need to explore any of this in an RPG meant for fun, and if I did, I'd try to handle it sensitively - by suggestion, with "fade to black" - and not graphically. But I'm a bit troubled by a hard and fast "no rape in your content rule", because I try to run games that work as more than just games and have - I'd like to think - some literary or philosophical heft to them at times.

On the other hand, I even more back such a rule for Conventions and Gaming Stores than I would a no harassment policy. There are some subjects that do not need to be raised in public society amongst strangers, and there ought to be a reasonable assumption that - for lack of a better term - gaming tables will adhere to a "PG-13" standard during Conventions. To my mind, that just should be a hard no violations rule, and certainly if I was running one I'd insist on, not merely because of my own sense of right and wrong - but it just seems a good way to avoid litigation and bad publicity.

I know that I personally fade to black for interrogation scenes: I've found that roleplaying interrogation scenes all too often turns into torture-porn.

I can see that. I don't think I've ever had a player that really that seemed infatuated with violence, but if I did, I'd avoid graphic depictions so as to not be a source of unhealthy thoughts for them. In the same way, if I knew I had a player who had for reasons of history, extra cause to be sensitive to the subject of rape, I'd handle it with extra sensitivity so as to not provoke unhealthy fear or agitation in them. And of course, if I had a new player I didn't know at all, everything would be handled with extra sensitivity until I got a feel for them. This seems to me like just basic manners and decency. I don't know much about the rules of "feminism" of the nth wave, but it seems to me that it ought to be enough to try to respect everyone in the room. So, as actually happened, if one of my players has a family member die IRL, and they say to me, "You know, right now, the plot line we've been having with my character's father just is too intense. I don't think I can handle it right now.", then of course I put the plot on hold until they are ready.

I literally can't imagine what a GM was thinking that was so insensitive to not pick up on your distress and change the scene. It is just appallingly rude. The whole scene you describe has to get pushed out into my, "Does not compute." mental space just to keep my famously Spock like circuits from frying. Every time I try to contemplate what you described in your horror story, it makes me go, "Who are these people?" What rock did you kick over to find such a group?

Sure. I don't know if you want to start a different thread or continue here

The only reason I'd go to a different thread is that I feel that the essayist doesn't start this conversation in a very good place, and its distracting from any actual learning taking place.

Men playing female characters can lead to some offensive stereotypes at the table (emphasis on "can." I am definitely not saying "will"). As one example, I recall one man (the step-brother of a friend who had joined us for a few game sessions) who played a female character at the same table as myself. He played her fairly normally, and then after a few in-game days the character started fighting with the rest of the party (mostly verbal, but at one point physically). When the DM, who was the male friend of mine, asked his step-brother what was up with the character's sudden personality change, the step-brother replied, "I'm acting in character! She's just on the rag." More than one facepalm ensued.

I'd like to say this was a humorous story of a player's immaturity and stupidity, but I suppose if you encounter that sort of stupidity often enough, like anything it stops being funny.

For example, as a personal matter, I cringe whenever a stranger observes "Your really smart" or some similar thing. I know the person isn't trying to be hideously insensitive and I know they don't know what they are saying, but to me they might as well called me an SOB. It still hurts. And they aren't even throwing a lens or frame on me that would normally be taken as negative or denigrating.

Occasional offensive stereotypes aside, I generally like when men play female characters. When a man has a female character and he is actively trying to be/stay in character, you often get the truest glimpse of what that man thinks a woman is really like. It's always particularly enlightening when those character choices include wild mood/emotional swings, sluttyness/nymphomania, or being a cold-hearted :p:p:p:p:p

It's hard or impossible for me to tell how typical my experiences have been. I find that a certain percentage of players that play a member of the opposite sex play them rigorously asexual. I suspect a certain percentage of players playing members of the opposite sex are playing out their own romantic fantasy - that is, the sort of person they find attractive at some level. I know for a fact that both male and female players I've had engaged with NPC's as romantic or erotic objects of fantasy, something that can get awfully uncomfortable for a DM at times (this one especially maybe), even when it just is playing out at the level of romantic or flirtatious dialogue - however chaste or appropriate. I also have had a certain percentage of players of both sexes that upon 'inhabiting' the body of a PC of the opposite sex, fixate on what is most different about being a member of the opposite sex and immediately want to explore that space. I have had a fairly large number of PC's, male or female, abused by monsters that are often in literature or myth proxies for sexual horrors - evil fey, vampires, what not. I know for example at least one female player appeared to be fascinated by Strahd's attentions to her character, for example, handwaved though it was. But this sort of euphemism for rape is a bit more safe than the actual thing (I think? Maybe not? Maybe not for everyone?). I have had only one case of what we normally think of as rape occurring at my table, and it involved a female player using a male PC to rape the female PC of a female player. And oddly, they laughed all the way through the scene.

If there was anything I would want anyone to take away from this, it is that I'm far less confident making assertions about this than many people in the thread seem to be. And I am genuinely curious about how other people view this, if for no other reason that I try very hard to be a skillful GM. I don't really even know if this discussion itself has left the bounds of good taste, or if I'm being a bit to frank about a subject that needs a more private forum. If this is too much, let me know, as I don't even know how much consent I need to discuss this sort of issue. My problem with the idea of a set of "Harassment Rules" for gaming in public spaces, is not so much that I oppose the idea, but I think it likely to be both more problematic to enforce and more likely to go wrong, then a set of "Decency Rules" requiring play to adhere to something like the Comic Code or a "PG-13" or some sort of standard where inflammatory topics were just assumed to be off-limits at least when in the public space. But in private spaces, I'm not really confident exactly where the laws have to be drawn. I have some idea where I'd personally feel a line had been crossed, and I have a notion that I should try to respect some other peoples boundaries, but yeah... after that it gets really vague, and the people who seem to think they've got it all figure out and can lecture you as to what is wrong or right to have in a collective story telling session make me vaguely uncomfortable. And I say that as a staunchly prude, Puritanical, traditional moralist that would feel rather strongly that I can assert what is right or wrong to actually do, as opposed to merely talk about. It seems to me that motive and presentation are rather important when discussing how story elements are handled.

I fear that my take on this has already been too complicated by having had too many female players and discovering they don't have any single set of standards they are sharing with each other and all agree to. However, when I hear some female gamers claim that things like pregnant PCs are signs of gross disrespect of women, I start to wonder if I missed something, and secretly some friend of mine has been fuming the whole time but afraid to tell me. So, I admit confusion. On the one hand, much of what I'm hearing just sounds wrong and coming from a strange place. On the other hand, I don't want to get this sort of thing wrong, since it's a bit more important than a game actually is.

Sorry for the meandering steam of consciousness here. I generally try to be more organized in my thinking.
 
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Taneras

First Post
Big picture here. Adding this to the rest of the evidence, are they just making it up?

Yes, no, and maybe. I'm sure a lot of the complaints are legitimate. I'm sure some are real, but embellished (still bad, obviously). I'm sure some aren't real, and are just the result of people over reacting. And I'm sure are a few are just plain made up.

One of the issues facing us, or at least the more skeptical of us, is that we're dealing mostly with anecdotal evidence. Worse, much of the anecdotal evidence is anonymous. There's a reason why our legal system allows us to face our accusers. Yes, sometimes it can be very hard for the victim, but never-the-less is of great importance to accurately determining exactly what's going on. I do wonder how many of these stories could be dispelled if the other party was aware of the accusations being made and could offer up their side of the story. It very well could be zero, perhaps 100% were accurately reported. Or, perhaps, some aren't what they appear to be. Also, what portion of the overall interactions within our community are like this? Is it any more than what the average person experiences in the average Western society? Don't get me wrong, one incident is too much, but if for this to be a problem specifically facing our hobby one would assume that its some degree worse than what society is as a whole.


Obryn said:
That agenda would be ...?

I mean, "Let's be less sexist than we were in the 90's" sounds like a pretty fair goal?

It would all depend on what they thought sexism was. Honestly, I've seen non-parody blogs and articles about how some of the most innocent and subtle things are sexist. A man smiling at a woman? Sexist, because he probably wouldn't smile at another guy and is therefore treating men and women different.

It seems both sides of this issue, or at least elements of both sides of this issue, are guilty of this. If a female character is portrayed in a certain manner in a game today, it's not uncommon to see a wave of complaints about sexism aimed at producers, developers, fans, etc. Likewise, as we've seen with the latest expansion of Baldur's Gate, you can see a wave of complaints when the mark is shifted too far in the opposite direction.

Then there's another angle entirely, does it really matter? Do games have an effect on real life? If not, then is it really an issue we should concern ourselves with as much as we currently are?
 
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Celebrim

Legend
But, what you're saying here pretty much dovetails with the original article's author. Why don't you play with strangers? If gamers are this welcoming community as others have claimed, shouldn't your experiences be very much an outlier?

You are rather leaping to conclusions here in a desperate hope of trying to catch me in something. I don't assert that I've ever been mistreated by strangers, deliberately denigrated, or picked on or the like. The very fact that the groups were willing to welcome a stranger into their private activities and play space I would be a louse not to have some gratitude for. In many cases the individuals were quite kind and gracious and as welcoming as they could be under the circumstances.

But I find standards of behavior, standards of content, standards of aesthetics of play, and standards of maturity just vary too widely from table to table. If anything, it's unfair of me to have the expectation that some other table will necessarily cater to my tastes. So one table might delve overtly into occult material I feel uncomfortable with. Another table is content with traditional "beer and pretzels" play, where you kick the doors down, kill the orcs, take there stuff, and never get tired of doing it over and over - while often as not joking around and using the occasion as simply focus for socializing. Another table might turn out to be filled with people who are painfully autistic even by my nerdy standards, so that I can't quite gel with them. One table might be far more comfortable with casual profanities than I am. Another might be entirely power-gamers that enjoy imposing their will on the game and blowing away every obstacle with ease. One group had a DM who thought he was great at extemporeous play... and he just wasn't. Another DM was so purist about metagaming, he refused to let the players see their own character sheets. And so on and so forth. In some cases, I don't actually have a problem with how that table chose to play, it just happened to not be my thing.

Thing is, they aren't. I 100% agree with you. Playing with strangers is very often a terrible experience. It goes from bad to worse.

Yes, but unless the table is doing something utterly morally repugnant, who is to say the problem isn't mine? Obviously they are enjoying themselves.

So, why would you be surprised and why can you not relate to these experiences? If every time you've played with strangers it's been a bad experience, why would you expect other's experiences to be better?

It's one thing to not expect another's experiences to be good. It's quite another to expect some other gamer to be in fear for their own safety, or to be subject to harassment or abuse.
 

Taneras

First Post
A lot of the "talking past each other" issue comes down a matter of belief. Either you believe the stories women share about their varied experiences with harassment, threatened and/or real violence, and sexual assault, in which you sort of have to acknowledge that there is a problem and something ought to be done about it; or you don't believe them, in which you are completely dismissing their lived experiences and therefore should not be surprised that your protestations of "I don't agree..." or "I don't believe..." are met with the likes of "You don't seem to understand..." You are saying you don't believe in something that is actual fact, something that actually has happened and still happens.

Now apply this to the following scenario.

Person A claims Person B grabbed their breast.

Person B claims that they did not grab Person A's breast.

You've listened to both, now which do you believe? If you believe Person A, by your own reasoning, you're "completely dismissing" Person B's "lived experiences". If you believe Person B, then you're doing the same thing to Person A. These claims are mutually exclusive and therefore both cannot be true. At the end of the day you're dismissing someone's personal experiences, or as you put it, "something that is actual fact".

That's why I really dislike that whole mentality of dismissing someone's personal experiences. I don't think that mindset its a useful tool that helps us solve these sorts of problems.
 
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