Although I understand the logic behind a we behind the ears adventurer dying the first time hit with a sword due to lack of experience, character death in the first few sessions is a hugs joykill. And I do damage rolls out in the open, so I dont having to play DM god and allow the players to live (because theyll know i fudged the game).
So the first solution I came up with, which we used until this year, is that there was no such thing as characters with levels less than 3.
I've seen people use max hit points for all levels, but that makes all spellcasters roughly half as useful - I wont even play in a D&D game using that unless i make a melee character.
A way to still use level one characters that I came up with was to add a flat value to hit points.
First I came up with a flat 20. Then I tried CON Score. Then I Tried 10+ Con Score. What I came up with that seemd the best was.
9+(1/2 Con Score). It generates (in theory) numbers 10-18. Realistically its more like 14-18 (because players dont like HP Penalties). lol
This works great for the melee classes.. They just last longer.
Where the ripple comes in, is fr classes that rely primarily on limited resources. Casters, or Players with Monster Levels. These were designed with the assumption that the enemy would have 14-18 less hit points.
I have a couple proposed solutions. Tell me which are good, an give suggestions if you can.
1. Extra damage on damage spells: Allow the addition of Caster stat mod to the damage. So Magic Missile adds the Wizards int bonus to damage (for each missile. I'm not sure this is the best way to deal with it.
2. Extra Uses: Increase the number of uses for everything. This is kindof harder, because how much do you increase it by? at 14-18 extra hit ponts, that's roughly 3 levels of fighter in hit points (average hit points). So do you give a number of spells per day as if 3 levels higher (and increase the maximum number of times per day as well? How do you deal with the number of uses for Sus? (to clarify, you wouldnt get spells any earlier, you would just get a bigger number per day when you first gain the level.)
Agamemnon: "Their process of building each edition atop the previous ones has resulted in 3.5 being the Michael Jackson of RPGs, desperately improving itself to ward off obsolescence but attaining only a kind of perverse lichlike state as a mockery of healthier games."
Why not just give them stronger monsters? Consider them to be ECL +1 - problem solved.
Huh? OH YOURE SAYING ONLY GIVE THE BONUS HIT POINTS TO THE PCS! I've been giving the bonus hit points to everything... I shouldnt be? lol. I figured use the same rules for everyone..
Well the pcs DID complain combat took too long the other night... lol
Huh? OH YOURE SAYING ONLY GIVE THE BONUS HIT POINTS TO THE PCS! I've been giving the bonus hit points to everything... I shouldnt be? lol. I figured use the same rules for everyone..
Well yeah... otherwise it kind of defeats the purpose.
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Well the pcs DID complain combat took too long the other night... lol
Agamemnon: "Their process of building each edition atop the previous ones has resulted in 3.5 being the Michael Jackson of RPGs, desperately improving itself to ward off obsolescence but attaining only a kind of perverse lichlike state as a mockery of healthier games."
The purpose wasnt to make the fights easier, just to make them not die from a single attack. lol
I've cut it back to giving monsters only HALF the bonus HP. Which is really about 1/2 - 3/4 a round of combat worth of extra hit points at low levels. :P
Wow! I'm gone a week and when I get back, double the threads! You guys have really been busy! Anyone else start posting or is it just the three of us again?
Sylrae, I'm not sure I understand your predicament. From what you say, your problem is low level characters dying in one hit.
It seems that you solved it starting characters off at 3rd level. That's 3HD while they're still fighting 1-2HD monsters and maybe a 4th or 5th BBEG. That should keep them from going to the grave after a solid hit.
Are you giving them those bonus hit points (9 + whatever) at 3rd level? Or making them start at 1st and giving it to them there? I'm not sure which way you're going with that.
One option would be to give them 3rd level HD at 1st level, or even MAX HD for their 1st three levels, and then they don't get anymore HP until they hit 4th level and on.
Another easy solution is to just give them their Con score in bonus hit points. That shores up the lower levels while at higher levels the extra hit points are mitigated by crappy dice rolls and everyone still comes out around average hit points or slightly higher. Or if you want them to still roll, have them roll 1d6+4 (assuming a 10 Con) for extra HP. If their Con is over 10, give them 1 bonus HP per point over 10. If it is under 10, then just treat their Con as a 10.
This could be explained as just one of those things that sets them apart from commoners and other NPCs. And you could apply the rule to BBEGs and important NPCs while everyone else just has the standard. This way you don't have to worry about applying it to all monsters, just the important people.
If you want slightly tougher monsters (if combat is going too quickly or easily for the PCs), give the monsters 3/4 avg HP instead of 1/2 avg. At 75% HP of their HD, that gives them maybe an extra round of survivability, not long enough to over power the group, but enough to be a credible threat in the face of heavy damage PCs.
StormingMarcus is around too, but I haven't seen anyone else yet.
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Originally Posted by Hawken
Are you giving them those bonus hit points (9 + whatever) at 3rd level? Or making them start at 1st and giving it to them there? I'm not sure which way you're going with that.
I think he's giving them the extra hp at L1.
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This could be explained as just one of those things that sets them apart from commoners and other NPCs. And you could apply the rule to BBEGs and important NPCs while everyone else just has the standard. This way you don't have to worry about applying it to all monsters, just the important people.
Yeah, like the heroic array - you're special, so you get more hp/better stats. I'd go with this one - normal monsters don't really need the extra hit points (especially not at low levels), and once you get up to L4-5, it's not all that noticeable. BBEGs should be special and last longer, so giving them a few extra hp would work nicely.
Agamemnon: "Their process of building each edition atop the previous ones has resulted in 3.5 being the Michael Jackson of RPGs, desperately improving itself to ward off obsolescence but attaining only a kind of perverse lichlike state as a mockery of healthier games."
The idea is to prevent them from dying in one hit at level one, without having them start at a higher level (which is how I used to solve the problem, just assume everything is level 3 or higher).
The bonus hitpoint formula I came up with bove seems to be working great (we've played 2 sessions with it so far)
Basically, players get 9(half the max con score for a human) + half their con score. this is based on CON, but to a minimum of ten, which realistically gives 13-18 bonus hit points to each player.
For monsters I do the same, but cut the bonus hit points in half to make combat not take forever. For something like a boss I would use the full value.
The thing I'm saying is theoretically a problem (though it hasnt come up yet due to a low number of spellcasters in the game) is that the number of spells that a caster gets is still based on the assumption of the lack of extra hit points.
I'm thinking that means that the caster will have 3 levels less worth of spells overall
(14-18 bonus hit points, average of 15.5 = 15). Say a fighter, they average roughly 5 hit points per level, thus thats 3 levels of hit points.
the thing im wondering, is should I increase spells per day to compensate? Or is it not a big enough deal to worry about?
What about x/day limited class abilities? should they be increased as if by 3 levels higher per day?
The question is, are the players finding it harder to kill the monsters? If yes, then it might be a problem and you might need to increase their spell selection. If no, then it's fine. Personally, like I said, I'd leave monster hit points along (except for bosses) - if the players are ripping through them too easily, either toss more at them or give them slightly tougher monsters. Giving them (the PCs) extra hit points effectively increases their ECL by +1 to +2, so they can handle greater threats.
Agamemnon: "Their process of building each edition atop the previous ones has resulted in 3.5 being the Michael Jackson of RPGs, desperately improving itself to ward off obsolescence but attaining only a kind of perverse lichlike state as a mockery of healthier games."
The question is, are the players finding it harder to kill the monsters? If yes, then it might be a problem and you might need to increase their spell selection. If no, then it's fine. Personally, like I said, I'd leave monster hit points along (except for bosses) - if the players are ripping through them too easily, either toss more at them or give them slightly tougher monsters. Giving them (the PCs) extra hit points effectively increases their ECL by +1 to +2, so they can handle greater threats.
Hey there. In all honesty, I've never really paid much attention to CR when it comes to monsters. Usually, I just have a quick look at how many hp a creature is likely to have and go from there, to see whether or not the pcs are capable of giving it a decent fight.
As for starting hps for PCs, I tend to give them max. hps. So a Fighter starts with 10 + CON bonus. This seems to do the trick in my campaigns. However, if at first level you're planning on dishing harder monsters up against the PCs, you could start off with 2d10 for Fighters, 2d8 for Clerics, etc. And perhaps use max. hit dice for the PCs? This way you could increase the threat levels of monsters, instead of dishing up a few goblins here and there as per usual
I appreciate the suggestions. I already have a system for extra hitpoints. I give the players (1/2 max human con) + (1/2 con) which is like adding their con score for max value, but it bumps the lower value up to make less of a difference for the low con people with their bonus level 1 hit points.
The question, is "if the players are getting extra hit points, that works out great for fighter types, because their abilities arent tied to hit points as much, because they can do their attacks/abilities again and again and again. A spellcaster gets a limited number of times per day for their abilities, but the number of times they get them assumes the regular number of hit points. it effectively makes the magic less powerful. People have more hit points, but people dont get stronger magic. or more magic. How should that be dealt with? Should it be dealt with?"
As for whether the players are having a harder time killing the monsters, its too early in the play/playtest to tell at the moment. I guess I'll keep playing with it like this for a while, and if it is getting to be too hard, I'll adjust everyone's spells per day in some way to fix it.
For now I guess I'll leave this to playtesting, and then come back to it.
Slyrae, I don't see where hit points are dependent upon spellcasting or vice versa. My understanding for the limited/fixed damage of spells was that it was a mitigating factor for the number of targets that could be affected by the attack as well as the range of the attack. I've never heard of anyone before you suggesting that spells were designed only for creatures with less hp than normal.
Instead of giving extra/bonus hit points, for your low level game, just give them their first 3 levels of HD. Max. hit points at 1st level, roll the other 2 HD. PCs don't get anymore HD until they hit 4th level. And just do this for PCs. Not monsters, not NPCs, just the PCs.
This doesn't make them 'super' characters or uber powerful, but it will help keep them alive longer and let them survive hits that would take out a 1st level character. Plus, its seems to solve your quandary about hit points and spells. I think.
My comment about the spells was that I was saying.
The fixed number of spells per day(and/or the damage spells do) assumes a certain number of hitpoints by level. The spells become less effective if players have more hit points than they would have in a regular game. For example, in a game where everyone gets max hp at every level, spellcasters effectively have Half the damage on their spells.
As for the solution of giving everyone 3 levels of hit points at the beginning, it sortof solves the issue...
True, the spells will work as normal.
But this makes the PCs tougher (wighout adjusting the monsters and npcs accordingly) at low levels, which is very much not the point. I'm not trying to make the PCs find the first few levels much easier, just avoid 1 hit kills at low levels... Although, maybe I should be making it easier too, in which case giving them the extra hd at first level could work.
I'll have to think about it and come back to this.
Yeah, or just give them max hp + Con score. That would give squishies a huge boost (definitely not one-hit kills then!) and the front-liners a lesser boost (but still enough to let them last longer on the front line).
Agamemnon: "Their process of building each edition atop the previous ones has resulted in 3.5 being the Michael Jackson of RPGs, desperately improving itself to ward off obsolescence but attaining only a kind of perverse lichlike state as a mockery of healthier games."
that makes spells less than 1/2 as useful if you mean every level.
if you mean only at first level, thats already basically what im doing (slight variant which would produce basically the same results)
either way, you still have damage spells being effectively dumbed down as a result.
If you give everyone max hp at every level, the only way to 'perfectly' compensate the spellcasters, is to assume max damage for spells.
if you give everyone 2x the hd per level (which results in an avg hp amount = max at 1 hp, roughly) then you should double the damage on spells.
I say this because spells are limited to a certain number per day. so if everything has 2x as many hit points, then your spells are basically doing half damage (because you dont get an increased number of attack spells to compensate, so youll run out of juice 2x as fast as normal).
Just to clarify, my solution to give them their 3rd level HD (3dX + 3X Con) was only for first level. At 2nd level, no HP gain. At 3rd level, no HP gain. At 4th and on, normal HP gain.
The idea isn't really to reduce the already reduced effectiveness of spells. --I agree, Sylrae, that spells have been dumbed down quite a bit; successively through each edition. Instead, the idea was to give each character enough HP to survive a critical hit or two. 1st and low level characters are going to be limited as far as healing goes, so even a 1st level mage that winds up with 15hp and takes 5hp in a battle will still feel comfortable taking on maybe one or two more encounters before needing rest or one of the cleric's few healing spells, rather than forcing the group to call it a day so he doesn't get killed. Same with the other classes. They'll be able to take a few more hits, but with limited recovery resources, they're not going to be throwing themselves into a fight with total disregard thinking they're gods or something. They'll still need to be cautious or at least mindful of their condition.
Just to clarify, my solution to give them their 3rd level HD (3dX + 3X Con) was only for first level. At 2nd level, no HP gain. At 3rd level, no HP gain. At 4th and on, normal HP gain.
The idea isn't really to reduce the already reduced effectiveness of spells. --I agree, Sylrae, that spells have been dumbed down quite a bit; successively through each edition. Instead, the idea was to give each character enough HP to survive a critical hit or two. 1st and low level characters are going to be limited as far as healing goes, so even a 1st level mage that winds up with 15hp and takes 5hp in a battle will still feel comfortable taking on maybe one or two more encounters before needing rest or one of the cleric's few healing spells, rather than forcing the group to call it a day so he doesn't get killed. Same with the other classes. They'll be able to take a few more hits, but with limited recovery resources, they're not going to be throwing themselves into a fight with total disregard thinking they're gods or something. They'll still need to be cautious or at least mindful of their condition.
that doesnt sound too bad, but im not sure 3 levels is enough hp for said wizard. thats like an avg of an extra 4 hp + 2con.
I'm thinking they need between 15-20 extra hp.
and if i give max hp for the first three levels, that (in my opinion) leads to the same problem im talking about where extra hit points can make spells less useful.
If its not enough for a wizard, you could tweak it so that anyone with D4 HD gets max hp for those three rolls. That puts them roughly even with a maxxed out 1d6 + 2d6 rolled for rogues and bards. This doesn't reduce any effectiveness of any spells whatsoever as far as damage goes.
Any 1st level spell is just about death for a wizard, and 1st level adventures take that into consideration. Giving a 1st level wizard 3hd doesn't overpower him it just prevents him from going down in a single hit.
After 1-2 combats in a 1st level adventure, the PCs after healing, resting, etc. are going to be around 50-80% hp, give or take. This means that they are not incapacitated but they know they're tired and hurt. And without further healing, they risk disaster if they keep going rather than facing disaster at the first fight, hoping and praying they don't get hit with a crit or more than 1-2 good shots. Downtime for recovery is considerably reduced and the characters could potentially get a little farther before having to settle down to rest.
Yeah, or just give them max hp + Con score. That would give squishies a huge boost (definitely not one-hit kills then!) and the front-liners a lesser boost (but still enough to let them last longer on the front line).
I've thought about going with Con score + Con mod + HD for 1st level, where "HD" equals die roll for hp (1d10 fighter, 1d8 cleric, etc)
Right now, I start all 1st-level PCs with a "kicker" of + 10 hp. So fighters get 10 + 1d10 + Con modifier hp at 1st level.
Monsters get the same 10 hp boost at 1 HD.
After that, all classes and monsters progress normally. Seems to work fine for us.
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