Combat rules: Need some opinions

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Hawken

We might have to agree to disagree on this point--crap! I hate using cliches!

If I'm fighting someone (and I've been in plenty of fights), I'm not going to believe a damn thing my enemy is saying. If he told me to "look out", I'd stab him in his face and THEN duck, not the other way around. Feinting is more along the lines of misleading and misdirecting an enemy's defense or attack rather than trying to trick him into looking over his shoulder. That example would be Bluff vs. Sense Motive and if it succeeded, I'd allow the results of a successful feint, but that is not what a feint actually is.

Okay, now I see what you're saying. You're right - feinting like that isn't bluffing someone.

Actually, here I was thinking your idea of neat and orderly--keeping the mechanics (roughly) the same.

Oh. I had to look back upthread to see what we'd done.... I'd say leave it as "a successful feint (by attacker OR defender) leaves the target flat-footed". That makes it a lot easier to remember, and more uniform all around. An attacker can use it to get a free attack in, or the defender can use it to make a quick getaway. Course... if you can only do it on your turn, aren't you always the attacker?

I was thinking Cha because the taunt is tied into the strength of personality and social aspects of Cha. It isn't always so much recognizing the taunt for what it is and resisting/ignoring it, but whether it stings the person's pride enough or embarrasses them enough in front of their peers that causes them to attack so wildly. --Think McFly from Back to the Future when he was called Chicken by Biff. Yeah, he knew it was stupid, but every time it goaded him to take the wrong action (at the time) because it was a matter of pride.

That's what I thought you were aiming for. It's a good idea, but the problem here is that you're using a nonstandard ability modifier for a save in a (fairly) common circumstance, and in combat, no less - I wonder how long it would take for a player to subtract his Wis mod, find and add his Cha mod, and then get make the roll?

You've got a point, though I didn't mention anything about hit points. So we could just say that the mini-rage is +2 to attack, -4 to AC.

Well, you said rage, so I assumed +4 Str, +4 Con... that would boost hit points. Oh yeah, and if the target of the taunt is knocked unconscious or dying, the effects wear off too. Forgot that part.


Edit: After some quick editing, here's what I've got for the revised abilities.

Feint: As a move action, a character can attempt a feint, leaving his opponent off-guard for the next attack. in order to do so, the character makes a modified level check - 1d20 + base attack bonus + Cha modifier vs. DC 10 + opponent's base attack bonus + opponent's Wis modifier. If the check succeeds, the opponent loses its Dex bonus for the character's next attack (the character can also use this action to take a combat stride away from the opponent without provoking an attack of opportunity).

When feinting in this way against a nonhumanoid, the character takes a -4 penalty. Against a creature of animal Intelligence (1 or 2), he takes a -8 penalty. Against a nonintelligent creature, it’s impossible.

Feinting in combat does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

The Improved Feint feat grants a +4 bonus to feint checks.


Demoralize: As a move action, a character can attempt to demoralize an opponent with whom he is in melee combat and who can see him. To do so, he must make a modified level check - 1d20 + his base attack bonus + 1 per 5 ranks in Intimidate + his Cha modifier vs. DC 10 + opponent's base attack bonus + opponent's Wis modifier; the opponent adds any bonuses to saves vs. fear effects. If the character is larger than his opponent, he gains a +2 bonus per size category of difference; if the opponent is larger, it becomes a -2 penalty per category. If the check succeeds, the opponent is shaken for 1 round per 5 points the check result exceeds the DC.

Demoralize is a mind-affecting effect.


Taunt: As a move action, a character can attempt to taunt his opponent into reckless action. To do so, he must make a modified level check - 1d20 + his Cha modifier vs. DC 10 + opponent's Int or Wis modifier (whichever is higher). If the check succeeds, the opponent is enraged and will direct all of its energy toward engaging the character in melee combat if possible; it gains a +2 bonus to attack rolls, but a -4 penalty to AC. The enemy will charge to close with the character if applicable. This effect lasts until the character is incapacitated, dead, or flees, or until the opponent is incapacitated or receives a calm emotions or similar spell.

A character can taunt an opponent who can either not see or not hear him (but not both), but he suffers a -4 penalty. Taunting a creature of animal intelligence (1 or 2) incurs a -8 penalty (these penalties stack). Taunting a mindless creature is impossible.

I think taunt should add ranks in Bluff, with the opponent's Sense Motive opposing it - it's not like feinting; someone who's skilled at bluffing (i.e., talking smack) can easily goad someone else into a fight.

[Sylrae]

About Feinting... What if the one Doing the feint isn't a humanoid Say it's a drider? IE an aberration?

I would think you should not do it by racial type. Someone with a natural weapon and 8 legs can try to feint just as easily as someone with 2 legs and an axe. They should be able to try to feint eachother cause its falsely telegraphed movements that youre trying to do. I could see a -2 for somethign of equal intelligence but drastically different physical qualities.

In terms for animals, I dont think it would be nearly as difficult to fake out an animal as youre implying.

Have you considered making use of Parry?

[Hawken]

I don't think its so much the racial type as it is the ability to understand and react to the attempt.

One type attempting to Feint another could be penalized for not knowing or understanding how the other type reacts to the Feint. A Human might not have a penalty when trying to Feint a Drow, but it should have one when attempting to Feint a Drider since a Human generally doesn't have the same understanding of Drider tactics and psychology to feint.

Animals and Vermin should be different. I think their ability to 'resist' a Feint should be based on their reaction speed (Dex or Reflex) not so much Sense Motive.

[Sylrae]

Isn't a feint like an individual faked out attack? I dont think there would be that much tactics involved?

I could see if you had to watch more appendages it woud be more difficult. IE, faking our someone when you have 6 arms would be easier than faking someone out who only has two. But I would imagine if two people ith six arms tried o fake eachother out they would both succeed more often. More places to watch for, more chance to err.

That would be my thought.

Maybe if it were based on number of attacks in a round, or number of combat usable appendages? just an Idea.

It's been a while since I stopped taking Martial arts, but isnt a successful feint almost always followed immediately by an actual attack? Maybe failing against a feint could provoke an AoO?

Just throwing out ideas.

[Kerrick]

The penalties are straight from the PHB. If you've got, say, a marilith feinting against a human, common sense should come into play here - the marilith has likely fought many, many humanoid foes and would know how they react, so she'd suffer no penalty (or at best a reduced one).

It's been a while since I stopped taking Martial arts, but isnt a successful feint almost always followed immediately by an actual attack?

If it were a standard action, like it used to be, you couldn't do it; as a move action, you can.

Maybe failing against a feint could provoke an AoO?

Hmm. I thought about that for a minute, and I can see where you're going - the defender's not fooled, and since you're expecting him to attack where you're NOT, he can hit you were you ARE.

[Sylrae]

So are you agreeing with the AoO Idea? lol or was that a disagreement?

[Kerrick]

Heh, sorry. That was me agreeing.

[Kerrick]

I need to know if this makes sense (i.e., can you read it and understand what's going on here). I'm using a variant grapple system (the one from Pathfinder Alpha), where you make a grapple check vs. a set DC; how much the result exceeds the DC governs how well the grapple succeeds - up to +4 is held, +5 to +9 grabbed, +11 to +14 grappled, and 15+ is pinned. With that in mind, does the following make sense?

Swallow Whole (Ex): A mu spore can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check. If the result is grabbed (DC +5) or better, it swallows its prey and the opponent takes bite damage (4d8+10); otherwise, the opponent simply takes bite damage and is not swallowed (though it is still grappled if the check succeeded).

A swallowed creature takes 2d8 points of bludgeoning damage each round. It can try to cut its way free with any light slashing weapon if it can deal 33 points of damage, or it can just try to escape the grapple. If it chooses the latter course, a successful grapple check puts it back in the mu spore's mouth, where it may be bitten or swallowed again.

Basically, what happens is that the mu spore can grab you with a tendril and toss you into its mouth on the next round (no check necessary, assuming it's grappled you). Once you're in the mouth, it can bite you automatically and attempt to swallow you with a grapple check (effectively, it's grappling you with its mouth) 5 or more better than the DC. After that, you're swallowed whole, but can attempt to climb free.

Most of this came from the original mu spore entry, but I want to use it as a general "swallow whole" thing because I like it and it makes sense (the biting/swallowing thing, at any rate; not sure about being able to climb back out of something's stomach). I seem to recall seeing something like this in 1E/2E somewhere, too...

[Khairn]

Swallow Whole (Ex): A mu spore can try to swallow a grabbed opponent of smaller size than itself by making a successful grapple check.

How about " A mu spore can try to swallow a target that had been grabbed, grappled or pinned by its tentacle in a previous round." ? Given your description of the attack, I think clarifying the first sentance makes it easier to understand.

[Kerrick]

I already included that in the Improved Grab description:

**Improved Grab (Ex):** To use this ability, the mu spore must hit with a tendril attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. It constricts each round for 4d6+21 points of damage on a successful grapple check and will attempt to swallow its opponent the round after it grapples.

Good catch, though.

[Kerrick]

Based on feedback I've been getting, I'm going to overhaul the combat system. The following are among the rules I'm planning to include; I want to get other opinions.

Swift actions: Combat stride, counterspell, and a few other things (not sure yet) will be swift actions.

Grapple: Grapple will require a touch attack to hit; instead of basing degree of the hold off degree of success (each +5 over the DC = a better hold), degree of the hold is capped by the target's size. For example, a human fighter can grapple a hill giant (Large), but the best he can do is Held (DC +0), as it's one size larger. Each round thereafter, though, he can make another check to improve the hold he already has (to grabbed, grappled, and pinned). I'm also thinking of reinstating the Legendary Wrestler feat, which would let you be treated as one size larger for purposes of grappling. Finally, you can grapple something four sizes smaller, not three.

Sunder: Sunder is a waste of time, and it needs to go. I've never seen or heard of a player use it, in 7 years of playing 3.5, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen a DM use it. If someone wants to attempt to destroy a weapon or armor, they can simply refer to the Smashing an Object rules (this will also eliminate one appearance of that table - it only needs to be listed once, IMO). If the item is reduced to 0 hit points, it is broken, but can be fixed (usually). If it's reduced to 0 minus hardness, it's destroyed. Objects with 0 hardness are destroyed when reduced to 0 hp. Repairing an item costs 10% of its value if its hit points are 50% or more, or 20% if 0-49%.

Two-weapon fighting: TWF will now be one feat, folded into Multiweapon Fighting. MWF will cover all instances of using more than one weapon, from 2 to 200. You take it once for each extra limb, and that's it - every time you gain a new attack with the main hand, you gain a new attack with the offhand, BUT the number of attacks with the offhand is capped at attacks -1 (that is, a Ftr 20 gets 4 main attacks and 3 offhand).

Combat Expertise and Power Attack: I've seen this suggested on several forums and thought it was a good idea, but it's only after gathering a whole bunch of other stuff together that I actually considered adding it. CE and PA will be options available to all PCs, without having to take a feat. The way this works is that you can subtract a number equal to your Int bonus (CE) or Str bonus (PA) from your AB and add it to your AC or damage, as applicable. The CE and PA feats (renamed Imp. CE and PA) will grant an additional 5 points. Imp. CE and PA will become Greater CE and PA, and add 10 points.

For example, a Ftr 15 with Str 17 and IPA can subtract up to 8 points from his AB and add it to damage.

[Hawken]

If you're going to overhaul, REALLY overhaul it.

Grapple: You have two options here; grab and grapple.

GRAB: As a standard action, you make a grab attack. This is treated as an unarmed attack but it doesn't deal damage and you take a -4 penalty to your attack roll if your opponent is armed. You can grab one opponent of your size or one size larger or two opponents if they are both smaller than you.

While grabbed, a creature takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls, saves and skill checks. If attacking with a light or natural weapon, they take no penalty. Breaking a grab is a standard action and clears one grabbing person per point of BAB (if you are being grabbed by more than 1 person).

If you are grabbing someone still at the start of the next round, you can choose to Pin, Crush, Trip or Throw them.

Pin: You make a grapple check with your opponent and if successful, your target is pinned and cannot act until the next round.

Crush: You can inflict unarmed damage on your target.

Trip: You make a grapple check with your opponent, if you win, they fall prone in the same space they are standing and are no longer treated as grabbed.

Throw: You make a grapple check with your opponent, if you win, they are thrown. The opponent lands prone in a space of your choosing up to 1 square away, from the space they were in, per 2 points of Str modifier. The opponent takes unarmed damage plus 1 point per space thrown. If they are thrown into a space that is occupied, they may take additional damage depending on what is in the space.

GRAPPLE: You can only make a Grapple attack if you have the Improved Grapple feat. Like a Grab, as a standard action, you make an attack roll (with a -4 penalty if your target is armed), and if you hit, both you and your target make Grapple checks. If you win, you immediately do one of the above options (Pin, Crush, Trip, or Throw). Or, you can choose to inflict damage if you are armed with a light weapon (your successful Grapple check is treated as a successful attack roll). If you fail the grapple check, you are still holding your target and they are treated as Grabbed until they shake you off or you make a successful grapple check.

This option requires a few changes:
1) Neither Grab nor Grapple provoke Attacks of Opportunity. This is made up for by the -4 penalty to the attack roll if the opponent is armed. The reason for this is simplification--one or two less die rolls in a round. These moves are going to be risky against an unarmed target, but they can still try if they want to.
2) Improved Grapple no longer provides a +4 to Grapple checks, but instead allows you to use one of the maneuvers (Pin, Crush, Trip or Throw) immediately with a successful Grapple check, instead of having to wait until the following round if you had instead Grabbed them.
3) Larger targets are not immobilized if they are grabbed or grappled. If they are strong enough to lift the person grappling them, they can move, and even possibly attack by attempting to smash the grappler into something if they don't want to try to break the grapple.
4) Smaller targets grabbing or grappling a larger target can only immobilize one limb on a pin, not their entire body.

Sunder: Like with grab or grapple, eliminate the attack of opportunity if someone wants to do this and just give them a -4 to their attack roll. Have them make an attack against the target's AC (if the item is held/worn by someone) and add in an AC bonus for the size of the item, along with the -4 to attack roll. Then, have the attack inflict only half damage since the person is likely trying to move the object out of the way of the attack.

Two Weapon Fighting: What if the person only gets one attack when they take the feat? If the number of attacks they get is attacks -1, (1-1=0), then how would they get an offhand attack? Or can they not take the feat until BAB = +6?

How about this:
TWO WEAPON FIGHTING STYLE
Prereq: BAB +4 or higher.
Benefit: You can make an attack with an off-hand weapon or with an unarmed attack (with an additional -4 to attack if enemy is armed). Both attacks are at -6 to attack. This penalty is reduced by 2 when the character's BAB is at +11, and becomes -2 at +16 BAB. The character gains a second offhand attack at BAB +11, and a third at BAB +16.

Defensive Fighting: The character takes a -2 penalty to his attack roll with his primary weapon. But instead of an extra offhand attack, he uses his offhand to help deflect, parry or mislead his target, gaining a +2 bonus to AC for that round. At BAB +11, the AC bonus increases to +4 and at BAB +16, it increases to +6.

This may seem powerful, but its efficacy depends entirely on the BAB of the person taking this. Yes, it can free up about 3 feat slots (Improved, Greater and Perfect Two Weapon Fighting). It also has the advantage of free up feat slots--Two Weapon Defense and the other feats in that chain--but at the expense of having to decide each round for extra attacks or AC bonus.

Combat Expertise: Try this feat idea.
CE
Prerequisite: BAB +2 or higher.
Benefit: Characters can choose to reduce their BAB to gain points of AC based on a 1:1 ratio. BAB cannot be reduced below +1. If the character's BAB is at +6 or higher and reduced below that, they are not able to make additional attacks on a full attack action. If the character combines this feat with the Fighting Defensively option, he gains an extra +2 bonus to AC. If this feat is combined with the Total Defense option, the character gains his full BAB to AC, along with a +4 bonus, and cannot take any other actions in the round except for a 5' step.
Normal: Characters can do this without taking the feat, but instead of a 1:1 ratio, they must sacrifice 2 points of BAB to gain 1 point of AC.

Power Attack:
Prerequisite: BAB +2 or higher.
Benefit: Characters can choose to reduce their BAB to gain extra damage based on a 1:1 ratio. BAB cannot be reduced below +1. If the character's BAB is at +6 or higher and reduced below that, they are not able to make additional attacks on a full attack action. The bonus to damage and penalty to attack apply to all attacks made until the start of the next round.
Special: Characters with the TWO HANDED FIGHTING STYLE feat that are using a two handed weapon gain +2 damage per point of BAB traded off.
Normal: Characters can do this without taking the feat, but instead of a 1:1 ratio, they must sacrifice 2 points of BAB to gain 1 point of extra damage. Characters with the TWO HANDED FIGHTING STYLE feat that do NOT have this feat are able to trade BAB for damage on a 1:1 scale.

TWO WEAPON FIGHTING STYLE (made on the fly right now)
Prerequisite: Str 14+, BAB +2 or higher.
Benefit: The character is able to add 1.5 X Str modifier to damage when using a two handed weapon. In addition, if the bonus damage is a fraction (such as with a +5 strength modifier), the fraction is rounded up instead of down.
At BAB +6, the character gains the following depending on the type of damage his two handed weapon inflicts. Character can only make a standard attack action to gain these effects:
Blunt weapon: Target makes save as if subject to Stunning Fist if more than 15 damage is inflicted, or free Bull Rush with weapon, and if successful knocks target back 5' or out to reach of weapon +5'.
Piercing weapon: Target is impaled. Treat as a Grab. If target does not take a standard action to remove himself from the weapon before your next attack in the following round, the target takes damage from the weapon automatically--no attack roll required.
Slashing weapon: Sweep attack. The same attack roll is applied to a person adjacent to the primary target. If the attack roll hits, this other person takes damage also.
At BAB +11, the character can make a Whirlwind attack. This can be done a number of times per day equal to his Str modifier +1.
At BAB +16, the character adds X2 Str modifier to damage instead of X1.5.

[Kerrick]

Wow, that's a lot of stuff.

Originally Posted by Hawken

If you're going to overhaul, REALLY overhaul it.

Grapple: You have two options here; grab and grapple.

GRAB: As a standard action, you make a grab attack. This is treated as an unarmed attack but it doesn't deal damage and you take a -4 penalty to your attack roll if your opponent is armed. You can grab one opponent of your size or one size larger or two opponents if they are both smaller than you.

While grabbed, a creature takes a -2 penalty to attack rolls, saves and skill checks. If attacking with a light or natural weapon, they take no penalty. Breaking a grab is a standard action and clears one grabbing person per point of BAB (if you are being grabbed by more than 1 person).

Okay, I'm with you so far.

If you are grabbing someone still at the start of the next round, you can choose to Pin, Crush, Trip or Throw them.

Pin: You make a grapple check with your opponent and if successful, your target is pinned and cannot act until the next round.

Crush: You can inflict unarmed damage on your target.

Trip: You make a grapple check with your opponent, if you win, they fall prone in the same space they are standing and are no longer treated as grabbed.

Throw: You make a grapple check with your opponent, if you win, they are thrown. The opponent lands prone in a space of your choosing up to 1 square away, from the space they were in, per 2 points of Str modifier. The opponent takes unarmed damage plus 1 point per space thrown. If they are thrown into a space that is occupied, they may take additional damage depending on what is in the space.

I like this idea - it's a bit cleaner than the held/grabbed/grappled stuff, and lets you do more stuff with it. Let me toss out a couple ideas. This is from my experience as a judo player:

A character who has grabbed someone can:

Attempt to pin the opponent (grapple check against set DC); he gets a +4 vs. a prone opponent (someone who's been tripped/thrown);

Or crush (deal damage via unarmed attack/natural weapons or a light weapon);

Or push/pull the target (you can make an opposed Strength check to move the target 5 feet in any direction, like a bull rush. You can choose to let go or keep hold. Additionally, the target is off-balance until his next turn.)

Someone with the Improved Grapple feat can do any of the above as a swift action on a successful grab attack, or do one of the below actions on his next turn:

Trip the opponent (trip attack vs. DC, +4 bonus);

Throw the opponent (attack vs. DC, can't throw someone larger).

In both cases, the opponent is prone on a success.

Someone with the Legendary Wrestler feat can perform any of the above as a swift action immediately after a successful grab.

Again, this is roughly modeling levels of expertise in martial arts/wrestling. Someone with little/no experience tends to grab someone, or leap on their back, but can't do anything substantive beyond beat on him with their fists. As you gain more experience, you learn how to make your opponent move where you want him to go; high-level martial artists can grab and make an immediate attack - I've seen matches last less than 10 seconds.

GRAPPLE: You can only make a Grapple attack if you have the Improved Grapple feat. Like a Grab, as a standard action, you make an attack roll (with a -4 penalty if your target is armed), and if you hit, both you and your target make Grapple checks. If you win, you immediately do one of the above options (Pin, Crush, Trip, or Throw). Or, you can choose to inflict damage if you are armed with a light weapon (your successful Grapple check is treated as a successful attack roll). If you fail the grapple check, you are still holding your target and they are treated as Grabbed until they shake you off or you make a successful grapple check.

I'd eliminate this. Opposed grapple checks are part of the reason the grapple system is so broken in the first place, and we're trying to eliminate die rolling.

This option requires a few changes:
1) Neither Grab nor Grapple provoke Attacks of Opportunity. This is made up for by the -4 penalty to the attack roll if the opponent is armed. The reason for this is simplification--one or two less die rolls in a round. These moves are going to be risky against an unarmed target, but they can still try if they want to.

I like that.

3) Larger targets are not immobilized if they are grabbed or grappled. If they are strong enough to lift the person grappling them, they can move, and even possibly attack by attempting to smash the grappler into something if they don't want to try to break the grapple.

Already have that, kind of; depending on your status (held, grabbed, etc.) your movement is limited by a certain amount.

4) Smaller targets grabbing or grappling a larger target can only immobilize one limb on a pin, not their entire body.

I've got rules for multiple grapplers - each two creatures/characters of a given size = one size larger.

Sunder: Like with grab or grapple, eliminate the attack of opportunity if someone wants to do this and just give them a -4 to their attack roll. Have them make an attack against the target's AC (if the item is held/worn by someone) and add in an AC bonus for the size of the item, along with the -4 to attack roll. Then, have the attack inflict only half damage since the person is likely trying to move the object out of the way of the attack.

That works.

Two Weapon Fighting: What if the person only gets one attack when they take the feat? If the number of attacks they get is attacks -1, (1-1=0), then how would they get an offhand attack? Or can they not take the feat until BAB = +6?

I thought about that, too. BAB +6 as a prereq is rather harsh - it means mid-BAB classes like the rogue couldn't take it till L9.

How about this:
TWO WEAPON FIGHTING STYLE
Prereq: BAB +4 or higher.
Benefit: You can make an attack with an off-hand weapon or with an unarmed attack (with an additional -4 to attack if enemy is armed). Both attacks are at -6 to attack. This penalty is reduced by 2 when the character's BAB is at +11, and becomes -2 at +16 BAB. The character gains a second offhand attack at BAB +11, and a third at BAB +16.

That could work, but does it still follow the normal TWF rules (i.e., light offhand weapon reduces the penalty)?

Defensive Fighting: The character takes a -2 penalty to his attack roll with his primary weapon. But instead of an extra offhand attack, he uses his offhand to help deflect, parry or mislead his target, gaining a +2 bonus to AC for that round. At BAB +11, the AC bonus increases to +4 and at BAB +16, it increases to +6.

This may seem powerful, but its efficacy depends entirely on the BAB of the person taking this. Yes, it can free up about 3 feat slots (Improved, Greater and Perfect Two Weapon Fighting). It also has the advantage of free up feat slots--Two Weapon Defense and the other feats in that chain--but at the expense of having to decide each round for extra attacks or AC bonus.

+6 at L16 isn't bad; it's about what you'd gain from a shield. I think I'd keep the TWD feat and just make it scale, though. Having one feat for TWF and one for TWD is good, I think, otherwise it gives two-weapon fighters too much of a boost.

Combat Expertise: Try this feat idea.
CE
Prerequisite: BAB +2 or higher.
Benefit: Characters can choose to reduce their BAB to gain points of AC based on a 1:1 ratio. BAB cannot be reduced below +1. If the character's BAB is at +6 or higher and reduced below that, they are not able to make additional attacks on a full attack action. If the character combines this feat with the Fighting Defensively option, he gains an extra +2 bonus to AC. If this feat is combined with the Total Defense option, the character gains his full BAB to AC, along with a +4 bonus, and cannot take any other actions in the round except for a 5' step.
Normal: Characters can do this without taking the feat, but instead of a 1:1 ratio, they must sacrifice 2 points of BAB to gain 1 point of AC.

Not bad. It's certainly an improvement over the original CE... I like the part about losing attacks if you reduce the BAB far enough.

How would this interact with a flurry of blows? Since it's an offensive maneuver, I'd say you can't combine them - if you want to fight defensively, you'd just have to use your normal attacks.

Power Attack:
Prerequisite: BAB +2 or higher.
Benefit: Characters can choose to reduce their BAB to gain extra damage based on a 1:1 ratio. BAB cannot be reduced below +1. If the character's BAB is at +6 or higher and reduced below that, they are not able to make additional attacks on a full attack action. The bonus to damage and penalty to attack apply to all attacks made until the start of the next round.
Special: Characters with the TWO HANDED FIGHTING STYLE feat that are using a two handed weapon gain +2 damage per point of BAB traded off.
Normal: Characters can do this without taking the feat, but instead of a 1:1 ratio, they must sacrifice 2 points of BAB to gain 1 point of extra damage. Characters with the TWO HANDED FIGHTING STYLE feat that do NOT have this feat are able to trade BAB for damage on a 1:1 scale.

That works, but I'm not too sure about the THF feat (see below).

TWO WEAPON FIGHTING STYLE (made on the fly right now)
Prerequisite: Str 14+, BAB +2 or higher.
Benefit: The character is able to add 1.5 X Str modifier to damage when using a two handed weapon. In addition, if the bonus damage is a fraction (such as with a +5 strength modifier), the fraction is rounded up instead of down.
At BAB +6, the character gains the following depending on the type of damage his two handed weapon inflicts. Character can only make a standard attack action to gain these effects:
Blunt weapon: Target makes save as if subject to Stunning Fist if more than 15 damage is inflicted, or free Bull Rush with weapon, and if successful knocks target back 5' or out to reach of weapon +5'.
Piercing weapon: Target is impaled. Treat as a Grab. If target does not take a standard action to remove himself from the weapon before your next attack in the following round, the target takes damage from the weapon automatically--no attack roll required.
Slashing weapon: Sweep attack. The same attack roll is applied to a person adjacent to the primary target. If the attack roll hits, this other person takes damage also.
At BAB +11, the character can make a Whirlwind attack. This can be done a number of times per day equal to his Str modifier +1.
At BAB +16, the character adds X2 Str modifier to damage instead of X1.5.

Someone attacking with a two-handed already gets Str x1.5. The additional effects are similar to what I've already given to the fighter, and giving someone free whirlwind attacks... I dunno. I mean, WWA isn't all that powerful, but this seems more like a PrC ability than a feat.

[Hawken]

I like your idea with the Improved Grapple and my idea for Grab. I don't like opposed grapple checks myself.

How about adding this as a secondary effect of Improved Grapple:
If you are grabbed and someone attempts to take a Grapple action (Pin, Crush, etc.) against you before you can act to escape the grab, you can make an opposed grapple check to attempt to resist their maneuver. Even if you succeed at this opposed roll, you are still treated as Grabbed.

Like you said about these rules representing skill and such, this would allow an experienced wrestler/jiujitsu type possibly avoid being thrown.

I've got rules for multiple grapplers - each two creatures/characters of a given size = one size larger.

I wasn't referring to multiple grapplers here, just that someone grappling a larger target (halfling grappling a human, human grappling an ogre) isn't going to immobilize them on a pin, but they could lock a single limb. Thus it would take several smaller creatures to completely pin a larger target.

That could work, but does it still follow the normal TWF rules (i.e., light offhand weapon reduces the penalty)?

I'd say no. People have symmetrical strength despite being left or right handed. Having a lighter weapon in one hand would actually throw off balance and coordinated speed I would think. A lighter weapon doesn't make either attack more accurate. Two weapon fighting is extremely difficult to pull off accurately and the penalties to attack should reflect this and not be diffused by something so easily corrected as taking a lighter weapon.

I believe this rule on lighter weapons was made only to control damage and 'balance' the damage output with like a two handed weapon.

+6 at L16 isn't bad; it's about what you'd gain from a shield. I think I'd keep the TWD feat and just make it scale, though. Having one feat for TWF and one for TWD is good, I think, otherwise it gives two-weapon fighters too much of a boost.

I won't argue with you on this. You want a separate feat for defense, ok for you. My reason though for combining them is that once you learn two weapon fighting, you've just learned two weapon defense also. TWD just means that you are using your offhand to parry or deflect their incoming attacks or feint in such a manner that makes it more difficult for them to hit you instead of using your offhand to stab at their vitals and hurt them. Its the technique that matters, not whether you are using the technique to swing at their body or their incoming attack.

How would this interact with a flurry of blows? Since it's an offensive maneuver, I'd say you can't combine them - if you want to fight defensively, you'd just have to use your normal attacks.

I would allow it, to a point. I would say that if your BAB is reduced below +0, you cannot attack.

Example: 5th level Monk (BAB +3, Flurry +2/+2) wants to flurry AND use CE. He can only a 1 point step from BAB to AC, bringing his flurry BAB down to +1/+1 (CE cannot be used to reduce BAB below +1). If he did NOT want to flurry, but still use CE, he could take 2 points from BAB to AC, reducing his attack to +1 from +3.

I think I would allow it much for the same reason I would combine TWF and TWD. Its the technique. You learn the technique and whether you use it to strike at your opponent to hurt them or use it to intercept incoming attacks is irrelevant.

Someone attacking with a two-handed already gets Str x1.5. The additional effects are similar to what I've already given to the fighter, and giving someone free whirlwind attacks... I dunno. I mean, WWA isn't all that powerful, but this seems more like a PrC ability than a feat.

Yes, two handed already gives X1.5, but one minor note is that with this feat, the fraction rounds up--that's an extra point of damage with each successful attack.

I'll admit I was stretching for something when I came up with WWA. It seems like a cool thing; someone wielding a polearm or greatsword and just swing it around and smacking the hell out of everyone around him. That could go if you wanted. But I'd keep the X2 str damage at 16th as kind of a reward for those fighter types that focus on combat and don't branch out into other areas that reduce their BAB.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Hawken

I like your idea with the Improved Grapple and my idea for Grab. I don't like opposed grapple checks myself.

How about adding this as a secondary effect of Improved Grapple:
If you are grabbed and someone attempts to take a Grapple action (Pin, Crush, etc.) against you before you can act to escape the grab, you can make an opposed grapple check to attempt to resist their maneuver. Even if you succeed at this opposed roll, you are still treated as Grabbed.

Like you said about these rules representing skill and such, this would allow an experienced wrestler/jiujitsu type possibly avoid being thrown.

Yes! That's perfect. But, uh.. you said you didn't like opposed checks. . What I'm suggesting (roll vs. a DC) isn't a true opposed check; it's a grapple check vs. DC 10 + Str mod + size mod. Pathfinder uses a variation of that, and people love it.

I wasn't referring to multiple grapplers here, just that someone grappling a larger target (halfling grappling a human, human grappling an ogre) isn't going to immobilize them on a pin, but they could lock a single limb. Thus it would take several smaller creatures to completely pin a larger target.

Ah, I see. That makes sense. I thought of something earlier... if you've grabbed someone, it should restrict their movement. I can take the table for movement that's currently under Pinned, modify it, and put it under this instead.

I'd say no. People have symmetrical strength despite being left or right handed. Having a lighter weapon in one hand would actually throw off balance and coordinated speed I would think. A lighter weapon doesn't make either attack more accurate. Two weapon fighting is extremely difficult to pull off accurately and the penalties to attack should reflect this and not be diffused by something so easily corrected as taking a lighter weapon.

I believe this rule on lighter weapons was made only to control damage and 'balance' the damage output with like a two handed weapon.

Yeah. In earlier editions, you only had 3/2 or (if you were a high-level fighter)5/2 attacks, so having two weapons of the same size wasn't that big a deal. Now that we get umpteen attacks per round, it made more sense to limit the offhand weapon to a smaller one.

I won't argue with you on this. You want a separate feat for defense, ok for you. My reason though for combining them is that once you learn two weapon fighting, you've just learned two weapon defense also. TWD just means that you are using your offhand to parry or deflect their incoming attacks or feint in such a manner that makes it more difficult for them to hit you instead of using your offhand to stab at their vitals and hurt them. Its the technique that matters, not whether you are using the technique to swing at their body or their incoming attack.

That's all right.. I'm not dead-set on any of this yet, so feel free to argue if you want. You do bring up a good point. The only real reason I'm opposed to it is that a two-weapon fighter gives up the benefit of a shield for the ability to deal more damage. I see where you're going, though; maybe a compromise is in order - do something like CE and PA, where you automatically gain a small shield bonus, and take the feat for a greater one?

I would allow it, to a point. I would say that if your BAB is reduced below +0, you cannot attack.

Example: 5th level Monk (BAB +3, Flurry +2/+2) wants to flurry AND use CE. He can only a 1 point step from BAB to AC, bringing his flurry BAB down to +1/+1 (CE cannot be used to reduce BAB below +1). If he did NOT want to flurry, but still use CE, he could take 2 points from BAB to AC, reducing his attack to +1 from +3.

I think I would allow it much for the same reason I would combine TWF and TWD. Its the technique. You learn the technique and whether you use it to strike at your opponent to hurt them or use it to intercept incoming attacks is irrelevant.

I was thinking much the same thing when I posted that question... martial arts is as much blocking the opponent's attacks as it is making your own. CE wouldn't be very useful at low levels unless you want to just fight defensively, because you've already got a -2 penalty; at higher levels, it could come in really handy.

Yes, two handed already gives X1.5, but one minor note is that with this feat, the fraction rounds up--that's an extra point of damage with each successful attack.

True, but the rule in D&D is that fractions always round down.

I'll admit I was stretching for something when I came up with WWA. It seems like a cool thing; someone wielding a polearm or greatsword and just swing it around and smacking the hell out of everyone around him. That could go if you wanted. But I'd keep the X2 str damage at 16th as kind of a reward for those fighter types that focus on combat and don't branch out into other areas that reduce their BAB.

Definitely. What was I thinking, actually (after further discussion on the other forum) was go with your idea for PA and make IPA 1:1 and x2 damage. It's a big boost, but I could make the prereqs high, too - Str 17, BAB +10 or something.

[Hawken]

Yes! That's perfect. But, uh.. you said you didn't like opposed checks. . What I'm suggesting (roll vs. a DC) isn't a true opposed check; it's a grapple check vs. DC 10 + Str mod + size mod. Pathfinder uses a variation of that, and people love it.

I don't and I think this rule would get rid of a lot of them. The opposed check would only be allowed if the target has Improved Grapple.

The only problem with a check vs. a DC is that the DC doesn't account for skill. Your guy would have the exact same chance to grapple and do something to a 1st level Fighter or one that was 20th level. What about making the DC have the same modifiers as the check itself?

Check = d20 + BAB + str + size
Save DC = 10 + BAB + str + size

The only real reason I'm opposed to it is that a two-weapon fighter gives up the benefit of a shield for the ability to deal more damage. I see where you're going, though; maybe a compromise is in order - do something like CE and PA, where you automatically gain a small shield bonus, and take the feat for a greater one?

Yes, two weapon fighters give up shields for extra attacks, but if they're not making extra attacks, shouldn't they get a bonus to AC?

If you want to give an automatic bonus to AC, how about +1 to AC for each extra attack (at BAB +6, +11, and +16). If you want to have an extra feat, make Two Weapon Defense double the bonus.

True, but the rule in D&D is that fractions always round down.

Yes, but feats are designed for making exceptions to rules. If a feat can be taken to change a cross-class skill to a class skill, why couldn't a feat be made to round a fraction up in a very specific situation (str damage when attacking with a two handed weapon)?

What were you wanting to do with IPA (I'm guessing Improved Power Attack)? The ratio is already 1:1. Do you mean increasing damage to X2 for everyone or just two handed weapon wielders (assuming you disregard my idea for a two weapon fighting style)?

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Hawken

I don't and I think this rule would get rid of a lot of them. The opposed check would only be allowed if the target has Improved Grapple.

The only problem with a check vs. a DC is that the DC doesn't account for skill. Your guy would have the exact same chance to grapple and do something to a 1st level Fighter or one that was 20th level. What about making the DC have the same modifiers as the check itself?

Check = d20 + BAB + str + size
Save DC = 10 + BAB + str + size

I know I tried adding BAB originally (PF's CMB uses it), and I dropped it for some reason. I just don't remember why. I think it was because of feedback on the Paizo forums - I'll have to check. (Funnily enough, the original example I used for multiple grapplers includes BABs in the formulae. ) Thinking about it, though, someone with a lot of expertise (high BAB) should be able to use that to make up for a lack of Strength and/or a serious size mismatch, though he wouldn't be as effective as he could be fighting someone his own size (see below). Or I could simply add bonuses for Improved Grapple and Legendary Wrestler (yes, I'm adding that feat - I think it will be useful).

Yes, two weapon fighters give up shields for extra attacks, but if they're not making extra attacks, shouldn't they get a bonus to AC?

If you want to give an automatic bonus to AC, how about +1 to AC for each extra attack (at BAB +6, +11, and +16). If you want to have an extra feat, make Two Weapon Defense double the bonus.

Yes they should, and that's what I suggested. So we're on the same page.

Yes, but feats are designed for making exceptions to rules. If a feat can be taken to change a cross-class skill to a class skill, why couldn't a feat be made to round a fraction up in a very specific situation (str damage when attacking with a two handed weapon)?

Yeah...

What were you wanting to do with IPA (I'm guessing Improved Power Attack)? The ratio is already 1:1. Do you mean increasing damage to X2 for everyone or just two handed weapon wielders (assuming you disregard my idea for a two weapon fighting style)?

Edit: I'm an idiot. I was going over the feats for revision, and I realized that the base "offensive fighting" is already 2:1, and PA would increase it to 1:1 and grant the x2 bonus - there's no need for an Imp. PA feat. Oops.

Grapple Rules

I was running this through my head at work yesterday, and a little last night, and I think we've got enough to refine the system into a workable ruleset. I'm sure there are still a few kinks to work out.

Spoiler:

A character or creature can attempt to grapple a foe as an attack action, hindering its combat options. If the attacker does not have Improved Unarmed Combat feat, improved grab, or a similar ability, making a grapple attempt against an armed foe incurs a -4 penalty.

In order to make a grapple attempt, the attacker must make a touch attack against the target. If it hits, he can make a grapple check as a free action (1d20 + BAB + size modifier + Str modifier) vs. DC 10 + defender's BAB + defender's size modifier + defender's Str modifier. Attempting to grapple without at least one free hand imposes a -2 penalty on the check; the Improved Unarmed Combat feat grants a +2 bonus.

If the grapple check succeeds, the attacker has grabbed its opponent. It can choose each round to either deal damage as normal or perform a maneuver listed below as a standard action. The target's movement is restricted as noted below under Hold, but it otherwise has use of all of its limbs. It cannot cast spells or use spell-like abilities without succeeding on a DC 15 Concentration check.

Hold: The attacker can grab its target with both hands, restricting its movement. Held creatures may suffer a penalty to AC, Reflex saves, Dex-related checks, and have more or less mobility depending on their size relative to the attacker's:

Size Ratio 		Penalty Move
Three sizes smaller 	-6 	0 ft.
Two sizes smaller 	-4 	0 ft.
One size smaller 	-2 	Combat stride
Same/one size larger 	-1 	Half move
Two sizes larger 	+0 	Full move (no run)
Three sizes larger 	+0 	Unrestricted

These values are reversed for the attacker. For example, a human (Medium) holding a cat (Tiny) would suffer no penalty and could make a full move, but he can't run; the cat, on the other hand, suffers a -4 penalty and can't move at all.

The defender can only take actions that require one free hand. For example, it could make an attack with a light weapon or cast a spell, but could not attack with a two-handed weapon. The defender cannot cast spells or use spell-like abilities without succeeding on a DC 20 Concentration check.

Push/Pull: The attacker can attempt to move the target in a direction of his choosing. This requires an opposed check: 1d20 + Str modifier + size modifier for attack and target; if the target is held, the attacker gains an additional +2 bonus. If the attacker succeeds, it moves the target a distance equal to its combat stride in a direction of its choosing; it can move with the target, or let it go.

Trip: The attacker can make a trip attack (see Trip, below). The attacker has a +2 bonus (which stacks with the bonus granted by Improved Finesse) if the target is held. If it succeeds, the target is knocked prone, and the attacker can make an immediate follow-up attack.

An attacker with the Improved Grapple feat can perform any of the above actions, or one of the following:

Pin: In order to attempt a pin, the target must be prone. On a successful grapple check, the attacker has pinned the target; the defender can take no actions except attempting to break the grapple (if suffers a -4 penalty), or actions that require only speech or thought (such as casting a spell with only verbal components). The defender cannot cast spells or use spell-like abilities without succeeding on a DC 30 Concentration check. The attacker automatically deals normal damage each round. An attacker cannot pin a creature that is larger than he is, though two or more attackers of the same size can pin a larger creature (see Multiple Grapplers, below).

As with Hold, an attacker that is pinning someone may have more or less restricted movement. Use the table above to determine this.

Throw: In order to attempt a throw, the target must be held and cannot be prone. An attacker cannot throw a target that is larger than it is. On a successful grapple check, the attacker has thrown the target; it moves up to 5 feet per two size categories of difference in a direction of the attacker's choosing. If the target remains in the attacker's space, the attacker can retain a hold on it. The target takes 1d6 points of damage (unless it falls a greater distance) and is prone.

For example, a human throwing a cat (two sizes smaller) can toss it up to 5 feet away in any direction, or throw it to the ground in his own space.


The defender can attempt to break the grapple as a standard action by making an opposed grapple check or Acrobatics check vs. the attacker's grapple check for that round. If the defender's check succeeds, he breaks the grapple and can act normally.

Joining a Grapple: If a character or creature is already involved in a grapple, another attacker can make a grapple check as above, except that he doesn't suffer a penalty for the target being armed, and his grab check automatically succeeds. He must still make a successful grapple check to perform any further maneuvers.

If there are multiple opponents involved in the grapple, the defender must pick one against whom to make the grapple check.

Multiple Grapplers: Several combatants can be in a single grapple. Each two creatures of a given size equal one creature of one size larger.

For example, two kobolds (Small) are equivalent to one human (Medium). Thus, a human held by two kobolds has his movement restricted to a half move. If he were being grappled by four kobolds, they would be treated as a Large creature, restricting his movement to a single combat stride and imposing a -2 penalty to his checks.

When grappling with multiple opponents, a defender must designate one attacker as its target; all grapple checks are made against that target. All attackers who are on the same side (that is, attempting to grapple the same target) use one roll for their grapple check – they use the largest size and Strength modifiers for any member of the group.

For example: Four kobolds (Str 9) are grappling a human fighter with 16 Strength. Since the kobolds are Small, four of them equal one Large creature; they all have the same Strength modifier (-1). Thus, their check is 1d20 + 2 -1 vs. DC 10 + 3, or 1d20 + 3 vs. DC 17.