I have been gaming since 1980, and had played AD&D, 2nd ed, 3.5 ed (passed 3.0), and now 4.0. Also worth noting is that I have never played an on-line game or any sort of video game.
I liked every system I had played in, after some initial criticisms. Not to rekindle a flame war, I have not been pleased with 4.0. Yes, I see some very nice things in it, and i want to keep it. Everything but the character class layout, it seems cold and sterile, the new classes seemed to be missing the fantasy element. I really like that the LA and HD were removed from character classes, and the skills seem so much simpler. I like the 3.5 feats better, and 4.0 rituals are useless.
That being said, I am in the process of trying to create a 3.5/4.0 hybrid system. The basic rules for 3.5 and 4.0 are not much different, what does differ are racial abilities, class abilities, skills and feats.
Races: I intend to keep most of the 4.0 content, and add more from earlier editions. Regarding races like Elves, there will be only three; Fey Elves, Grugash (sylvan/wild) elves, and Drow. As I stated in another thread, I do not give racial bonuses to stats, each race will be flexible enough to allow for all past variants.
Classes & Feats: Here I like the 3.5 system much better, but 4.0 can be fixed with some minor tweaks/additions. I am going to give two feats per level, and have included many of the class features from 3.5 into the 4.0 system. I have not yet looked at the PHB2, but will soon. I don not care for the 4.0 feats, so this list was changed and added to.
Spell System: There is not one in 4.0, but I am keeping the Wizard as is. I broke down the 3.5 system (arcane and divine spells) into 12 schools. All classes can choose to have some advancement in one school of 3.5 type spells.
Greetings! You must have seen the link in my sig. Welcome to the Society.
Just a couple quick questions/comments...
How are you going to make races flexible enough that they don't need stat adjustments? I'd love to see a way to make this work, personally.
2 feats/level sounds like a bit much, IMO. Even 1/level (as noted by Monte in the BoXM) is powerful.
The spell system sounds interesting, though I think I'd prefer to keep magic in the hands of spellcasters; are you going with something more like the Elder Scrolls system, where anyone can learn magic?
Agamemnon: "Their process of building each edition atop the previous ones has resulted in 3.5 being the Michael Jackson of RPGs, desperately improving itself to ward off obsolescence but attaining only a kind of perverse lichlike state as a mockery of healthier games."
How are you going to make races flexible enough that they don't need stat adjustments? I'd love to see a way to make this work, personally.
First of all, player characters are the best of the best of a society... and often the oddest examples of it. If there was a Dwarf with an 18 Int and an 08 Con, it would belong to a character. It would be an extreme rarity indeed.
Our game is very background driven, That low-Con Dwarf Wizard would be a freak and outcast in his society, and will have a very interesting background. I'd say that in every gaming session, even the ones that are all hack and slash dungeon crawls, elements of one or more backgrounds come into play. That my friend creates racial uniqueness more than a stat bonus or some combat abilities.
That probably make a game unique (or rare), but it works for us.
I'm more familiar with real html than phb semi-html.
Feel free to edit the color into this post if you can.
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Originally Posted by Kerrick
2 feats/level sounds like a bit much, IMO. Even 1/level (as noted by Monte in the BoXM) is powerful.
This is how I treat level advancement:
Attributes: You start with [18,16,14,12,10,08], and increase one attribute by [one point] with each level of advancement. The maximum rate of increase is one attribute point every other level.
Hit Points: You start with [Fortitude] Hit Points, and increase your HP by [Fortitude/3] with each level of advancement.
Offense: You increase your Offensive bonus by [+1] with each odd level of advancement.
Defense: You increase your Defensive bonus by [+1] with each even level of advancement.
Resistance: You increase your Resistance (save) bonuses by [+1] with each even level of advancement.
Feats: You start with Racial Abilities and Class Training. Then you increase your Feats by [2] with each level of advancement.
Skills: You start with [20] Skill points, and increase your Skill points by [7] with each level of advancement.
Regarding Attributes (stats), a 30th level character gets 26. I give one per level, giving a more gradual increase.
The Hit Point system works nearly the same.
Offense, Defense and Resistance works the same, except that I give Offense on odd levels and 4.0 gives all on even levels.
Instead of jacking up all Skills (I added an 18th, Quickness or initiative) on even levels, I allow the character to chose a select few each level. there are some skills that they will never even try or practice at, why should they automatically advance with level?
Lastly we come to Feats. All 4.0 characters get a Power each level, which I include as a feat. Then over 30 levels they gain 18 more feats. To balance every level evenly, I allow them to select two feats per level. They can be two Encounter Powers at their level or lower, or include General of Class Feats.
By the way, all Monsters also increase in levels and get treated the same way.... Bwahahaha!!!
Last edited by Hereticus; 5th April 2009 at 05:39 PM..
Reason: Putzing around with font sizes and colors.
The spell system sounds interesting, though I think I'd prefer to keep magic in the hands of spellcasters; are you going with something more like the Elder Scrolls system, where anyone can learn magic?
I'm not familiar with any magic systems outside of D&D, so I do not have any other points of reference. Just decades of house rules.
Our magic system has 12 schools of magic, and the class we call Arcanomancer can select two School/Ranks of spells per level (max rank is half their level rounded up). This limits the spells (wizard, bard, cleric, druid, house) available to Arcanomancers, preventing them from becoming too powerful.
As I stated above, all classes get two Feats per level. Classes other than Arcanomancers can use Feats to learn School/Ranks on a limited basis. That creates classes similar to the Paladin and Ranger, and many more interesting combinations.
We have few classes, but the variety is nearly endless.
Not sure. All text appears white to me, but my IE is borked up - everything appears in Arial font.
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This is how I treat level advancement:
Attributes: You start with [18,16,14,12,10,08], and increase one attribute by [one point] with each level of advancement. The maximum rate of increase is one attribute point every other level.
Ah, okay. By giving more stat boosts over the course of level advancement, you eliminate the need for racial adjustments.
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Hit Points: You start with [Fortitude] Hit Points, and increase your HP by [Fortitude/3] with each level of advancement.
I'm assuming Fort is the save, not a replacement for Con?
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Feats: You start with Racial Abilities and Class Training. Then you increase your Feats by [2] with each level of advancement.
Skills: You start with [20] Skill points, and increase your Skill points by [7] with each level of advancement.
Edena of Neith was talking about doing much the same thing; you can see various people's comments and criticisms [http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-rules-discussion/253545-commentary-philosophy-concerning-pathfinder-feedback-requested.html]here[/url]
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Instead of jacking up all Skills (I added an 18th, Quickness or initiative) on even levels, I allow the character to chose a select few each level. there are some skills that they will never even try or practice at, why should they automatically advance with level?
I don't like the SWSE/4E skill system, personally - I prefer something where players can put their points wherever they want and advance skills as they choose. The 1:1 skill system (is that what you're using?) is a huge jump forward, as it allows for greater use of skill points and more effective characters without making huge changes to the system.
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Lastly we come to Feats. All 4.0 characters get a Power each level, which I include as a feat. Then over 30 levels they gain 18 more feats. To balance every level evenly, I allow them to select two feats per level. They can be two Encounter Powers at their level or lower, or include General of Class Feats.
Your characters are going to be very powerful. But then, it looks like you prefer high-power games, so it all works toward that goal. Me, I prefer something a bit more toward the mid end of the power spectrum.
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By the way, all Monsters also increase in levels and get treated the same way.... Bwahahaha!!!
Wait till you have to make a monster with umpteen feats. It's not fun, trust me.
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Our magic system has 12 schools of magic, and the class we call Arcanomancer can select two School/Ranks of spells per level (max rank is half their level rounded up). This limits the spells (wizard, bard, cleric, druid, house) available to Arcanomancers, preventing them from becoming too powerful.
So you're going with a skill-based casting system? Interesting.
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As I stated above, all classes get two Feats per level. Classes other than Arcanomancers can use Feats to learn School/Ranks on a limited basis. That creates classes similar to the Paladin and Ranger, and many more interesting combinations.
Agamemnon: "Their process of building each edition atop the previous ones has resulted in 3.5 being the Michael Jackson of RPGs, desperately improving itself to ward off obsolescence but attaining only a kind of perverse lichlike state as a mockery of healthier games."
NYour characters are going to be very powerful. But then, it looks like you prefer high-power games, so it all works toward that goal. Me, I prefer something a bit more toward the mid end of the power spectrum.
Very good comments, and these issues had been considered. 4.0E characters gets 48 Feats over 30 level, I offer 60. 3.5E characters get differing amounts, and some get more than 60. I tried to balance levels and classes, and make few things automatic to give players more options. Characters do grow in power probably a bit more than either system, but more because they can pick what they want rather than getting other things they don't want.
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Originally Posted by Kerrick
Wait till you have to make a monster with umpteen feats. It's not fun, trust me.
Actually it is not very difficult. There are a standard few I assign to most monsters, and then throw in some spells. It's not very difficult at all. As a DM I find it easy to create interesting monsters that challenge the party.
We play a system with rotating DMs, and going up against powerful and intelligent creatures has made me a more cautious and effective player. My characters do not mindlessly charge anything, as that has proven to be dangerous to others in the past. I do not like mindless hacking, I prefer challenges and a thinking game. We lost a few players who wanted mindless hacking. They're now playing video games instead.
By the way, here are the 12 spell/schools we use. While different from standard D&D, all the old favorite spells are here, plus some. All the good stuff is available to more characters, but less of it. I call Charisma... Presence.
12 is a good number, because there are four schools attached to Intelligence, Wisdom and Presence, and all are nearly equal. Arcanomancers can learn 1/3 of the spells available, making them less powerful than 3.5E Wizards.
Conjuration (intelligence) spells permanently or temporarily create or alter physical items. They can not directly affect creatures, energy, magic or the natural environment. Generally speaking conjured items that are permanent are not magical, and conjured items that are temporary are magical. Permanently conjured non-magical items do not radiate magic, and can not be dispelled. Temporary magical items can be dispelled. A Wall of Stone is permanent and does not radiate magic. A Wall of Ice is temporary and radiates magical cold, so it is magical and can be dispelled. A Wall of Fire is pure energy and has no substance, so it can not be conjured.
Enchantment (intelligence) spells can permanently or temporarily create, destroy, manipulate or ban magical effects in an area. They can not summon creatures or create items, but they can be used to enchant existing creatures or items. Objects or individuals can be enchanted to give temporary attack bonuses, damage bonuses, avoidance bonuses, and reduction bonuses. Enchantment rituals are used to create magic items or animate constructs. They can oppose magic with spells like Dispel Magic, Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Immunity, Anti-Magic Shell, Cancellation, Negation and Disjunction. They can create force effects such as Magic Missile, Wall of Force, Attraction/Repulsion and Prismatic Sphere, or counter force effects with spells such as Disintegration. Force effects can be resisted with Constitution (where applicable), and magic opposition effects (dispel) are opposed by the caster’s key attribute that created the magic.
Illusion (intelligence) spells create visual (appearance, color, light, but not dark), auditory (sound), olfactory (scent), gustative (taste), tactile (touch and thermal) and divination (magical) images in the mind of those that perceive them. Illusionary images oppose divination and are designed to fool the senses, and can be resisted with Intelligence. However resisting an illusion requires a conscious effort on the part of the disbeliever. Although images are not real, thermal illusions cause non-lethal damage, and shadow magic creates partially real effects. Illusionists can also create intense bursts of color that can have effects such as fascination, hypnotism, stunning or system shock. Despite being magical, illusions do not radiate magic. They can only be identified with spells such as Detect Illusion, or seen through with True Sight.
Mentalism (intelligence) spells send information to the minds of others, and to protect your own mind. The information sent can be harmless feedback such as a verbal or emotional Message, a mild urging such as Charm, a moderate push such as a Compulsion or Suggestion, or a strong Command or Demand. It can also be a mental assault without information such as Daze, Confusion, Stun, Sleep or Possession (or Magic Jar). Mentalism can be resisted with Wisdom. Despite being magical, mental influences do not radiate magic. They can only be identified with spells such as Detect Charm, or found through additional mental intrusions on the subject.
Elemental (wisdom) spells create, destroy or alter, either temporarily or permanently, elemental matter (Air, Water & Earth), or create spontaneous or temporary magical bursts of elemental energy (Heat, Cold & Electricity). Permanently created matter does not radiate magic, but temporarily altered matter does such as weather, tidal effects, and passages through the earth. Elemental energy is always temporary (or instantaneous), radiates magic, and can be dispelled. Offensive (instantaneous) energy spells manifest themselves in flames (red is hot, blue is cold, golden is electrical), and come in the form of bolts (rays or missiles), balls (radiate from caster, or missiles that detonate), and cones (or sprays). Temporary energy spells can radiate from a point (some are mobile), fill and area, or create a wall. Some elemental spells can also be used to resist (absorb, reduce or offer immunity) to energy attacks. These spells can also be resisted with Constitution. Lastly elemental spells can be used to dispel, destroy, command, create or summon various types of elementals.
Naturalism (wisdom) spells are concerned with naturally occurring flora and fauna on the Prime Plane, and fey creatures on the Astral Plane. Naturalists are usually neutrally aligned, but not in all cases. Flora includes all prime plants, including fungi, molds and oozes. Fauna includes all prime humanoids, animals and monsters. Fey includes all astral creatures other than celestials, fiends, elementals, dragons and constructs. Naturalism spells can be used to call existing creatures to service, or to summon magically created creatures. Summoned creatures are temporary, radiate magic, can be dispelled, and will disappear after the spell expires. Called creatures are permanent and may leave the area after the spell expires.
Dimensional (wisdom) spells allow you to travel through the Ethereal Plane that exist between the Prime Plane and Astral Plane, create temporary pockets of reality in that plane, and pass through it to the Astral Plane. Travel through the Ethereal Plane can be normal, rapid, or instantaneous, depending on the type of magic that allowed you to enter. Note that incorporeal is a state of semi-ethereal (half corporeal).
Obtenebration (wisdom) spells command shadows and darkness, create, bolster, command and control undead creatures, and are associated with those of evil alignments who are not fiends. Obtenebration can be used to create unnatural shadows, normal darkness, and magical darkness (nocturne), or to move through shadows with spells such as Shadow Step or Shadow Walk. They can be used to create or summon Shadows, Shades and Nocturnes, or allow yourself to take such form yourself. Obtenebration spells can be used to animate or create new undead, or to summon, bolster, command or control or existing undead.
Benevolence (presence) spells bolster and protect health and life, assist allies, summon celestial creatures, and dispel or destroy fiendish and undead creatures. There is no resistance if cast on a willing creature. If the target creature is unwilling, it is resisted by Constitution. Benevolent bolsters radiate magic and can be dispelled, and can be terminated at will by the recipient.
Malevolence (presence) spells hinder and destroy health and life, curse enemies, summon fiendish creatures, dispel or destroy celestial creatures, and control undead creatures. There is no resistance if cast on a willing creature (fiend or undead). If the target creature is unwilling, it is resisted by Constitution. Malevolent curses radiate magic and can be dispelled, and can be terminated at will by the willing recipient.
Alteration (presence) spells temporarily enhance your abilities, attributes, movement or change the shape of your body. They can only be cast on yourself or a willing subject, so there is no resistance. Alterations radiate magic and can be dispelled, and can be terminated at will by the recipient.
Divination (presence) spells expand your sensory perceptions, either to enhance existing abilities, to create new senses, or to receive knowledge from external sources. They can also be used to limit the senses of an opponent. Creatures and enchanted items being divined resist divination with Presence, but locations and normal items can not resist. Divinations can detect thought, determine the strength of thought (intelligence), read thought, but can not influence the mind or body of another. Divination spells receive sensory inputs, they can not be used to send influence.
I think I'd switch Mentalism and Divination. Forcing your will on another is more a matter of Presence (Charisma), and divinations have long been the province of Intelligence (gaining knowledge).
Agamemnon: "Their process of building each edition atop the previous ones has resulted in 3.5 being the Michael Jackson of RPGs, desperately improving itself to ward off obsolescence but attaining only a kind of perverse lichlike state as a mockery of healthier games."
I think I'd switch Mentalism and Divination. Forcing your will on another is more a matter of Presence (Charisma), and divinations have long been the province of Intelligence (gaining knowledge).
Good point, I'll bring it up with the others.
Here is how I describe the six attributes (stats):
Strength (Power and Stamina): Your ability to bring the power of your strength to bear in short bursts, the stamina to maintain your strength it over time, and to perform athletic feats.
Constitution (Fortitude and Toughness): Your ability to resist magical effects that target your health and your soul, your ability to resist and sustain physical damage, and once damaged heal from it.
Dexterity (Corporeal and Manual Agility): How well you can control the balance and movement of your body, and how well you can manipulate and direct objects with your hands.
Intelligence (Knowledge and Reason): How much knowledge you have and how well you store in your memory, and your ability to learn new knowledge and see through falsehoods.
Wisdom (Awareness and Willpower): Your perceptive senses of awareness, intuition and observation, and perception, and your willpower to resist mental attacks and maintain your concentration.
Presence (Charisma and Leadership): Your ability to subtly influence and lead others based on the strength of your appearance, character, likeability, personality and other factors.
__________________ "Democracy must be something more than two gnolls and an elf voting on what to have for dinner."
Attributes: You start with [18,16,14,12,10,08], and increase one attribute by [one point] with each level of advancement. The maximum rate of increase is one attribute point every other level.
Is there a +5 limit to attributes? I like the 4e system that gives a bonus to 2 stats (perhaps every 2 levels?)
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Hit Points: You start with [Fortitude] Hit Points, and increase your HP by [Fortitude/3] with each level of advancement.
Do you mean constitution?
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Offense: You increase your Offensive bonus by [+1] with each odd level of advancement.
Oh... Honestly, this is the sort of thing that I didn't like about 4e- a sort of homogenizing philosophy that made one character look like all the rest. If you like it that's cool though.
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Defense: You increase your Defensive bonus by [+1] with each even level of advancement.
Resistance: You increase your Resistance (save) bonuses by [+1] with each even level of advancement.
Feats: You start with Racial Abilities and Class Training. Then you increase your Feats by [2] with each level of advancement.
Well, I'm all for additional feats. That is a decent way to customize one's character. I'm getting a GURPS vibe here. Have you checked that out? You might like it. I thought GURPS undead was especially good though I don't really like a point system for character creation myself.
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Skills: You start with [20] Skill points, and increase your Skill points by [7] with each level of advancement.
Yeah, very GURPSesque.
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Regarding Attributes (stats), a 30th level character gets 26. I give one per level, giving a more gradual increase.
I'm confused here. What do you mean by this?
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Offense, Defense and Resistance works the same, except that I give Offense on odd levels and 4.0 gives all on even levels.
Instead of jacking up all Skills (I added an 18th, Quickness or initiative) on even levels, I allow the character to chose a select few each level. there are some skills that they will never even try or practice at, why should they automatically advance with level?
So, what is the max skill level? Are you talking about the 7 skill points above? What does it mean to advance? Perhaps 1/2 +5 max, with the gaps filled it at 7 points per level? I would go with something similar like either pathfinder/phoenix or just stick with the 4.0 system (only advancing x non-class skills as you intend here- that, I think, in an improvement on the 4.0 system).
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Lastly we come to Feats. All 4.0 characters get a Power each level, which I include as a feat. Then over 30 levels they gain 18 more feats. To balance every level evenly, I allow them to select two feats per level. They can be two Encounter Powers at their level or lower, or include General of Class Feats.
By the way, all Monsters also increase in levels and get treated the same way.... Bwahahaha!!!
Wait, so one of those feats is really a power? Are you selecting from the 4.0 lists? What about spellcasters? You said you are going with 3.5 casters, no? They select spells perhaps? 1/level seems low (at low levels in any event) really.
And, man, monster creation must be quite a task!!!!
__________________
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Originally Posted by Mourn
Well, if I was a wall, I wouldn't be expecting a dagger in my kidney, so a sneak attack would definitely take me off-guard.
Is there a +5 limit to attributes? I like the 4e system that gives a bonus to 2 stats (perhaps every 2 levels?)
That is the same as most all systems use.
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Originally Posted by Crashy75
Do you mean constitution?
Yes.
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Originally Posted by Crashy75
Oh... Honestly, this is the sort of thing that I didn't like about 4e- a sort of homogenizing philosophy that made one character look like all the rest. If you like it that's cool though.
The character classes are anything but similar, and there is more variation within classes.
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Originally Posted by Crashy75
Well, I'm all for additional feats. That is a decent way to customize one's character. I'm getting a GURPS vibe here. Have you checked that out? You might like it. I thought GURPS undead was especially good though I don't really like a point system for character creation myself.
Yeah, very GURPSesque.
I have never seen a gurps.
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Originally Posted by Crashy75
So, what is the max skill level? Are you talking about the 7 skill points above? What does it mean to advance? Perhaps 1/2 +5 max, with the gaps filled it at 7 points per level? I would go with something similar like either pathfinder/phoenix or just stick with the 4.0 system (only advancing x non-class skills as you intend here- that, I think, in an improvement on the 4.0 system).
The max skill level is your racial and class bonuses, one per level, plus whatever you can get from feats or items.
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Originally Posted by Crashy75
I'm confused here. What do you mean by this?
Actually the number is 24, from the 4.0 system. Characters get stat increases at 4th, 8th, 11th, 14th, 18th, 21st, 24th and 28th levels.
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Originally Posted by Crashy75
Wait, so one of those feats is really a power? Are you selecting from the 4.0 lists? What about spellcasters? You said you are going with 3.5 casters, no? They select spells perhaps? 1/level seems low (at low levels in any event) really.
Yes, characters can select from the 4.0 list, and they get two feats per level.
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Originally Posted by Crashy75
And, man, monster creation must be quite a task!!!!
It's alot easier...
__________________ "Democracy must be something more than two gnolls and an elf voting on what to have for dinner."
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