Rebalancing exotic weapons

[Kerrick]

Someone on the Brilliant Gameology boards had a really cool idea - add requirements for exotic weapons and ditch the EWP feat. I think we can all agree the feat is nigh unto worthless, and making all exotic weapons martial, but with prereqs, means that using weapon groups is much more balanced - you don't have to worry about some groups being more overpowered than others, or having to take feats to use all the weapons in a group because some are exotic.

He posted only a preliminary idea, so I adapted it and posted it there. No one's replied so far, so I thought I'd bring it over here for opinions. This is an alpha version - I know some of them could probably use a little work.

Here's what I've got:

Keep all exotic weapons as "exotic", but in this case, "exotic" means "martial weapons that have extra abilities that require additional training". Anyone who can use martial weapons can use exotic weapons, but without the prereqs, you can't use the additional benefits (or suffer a penalty when wielding it, as applicable).

So then we have...

Bastard Sword - Requirements: Str 13. Benefit: Can wield it one-handed.

Bolas: Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Crossbow, hand: Dex 13, Int 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Crossbow, repeating: Dex 15. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Dire flail: Str 15. Benefit: You can use this weapon as a double weapon.

Dwarven Urgrosh: Dwarf and Str 13, OR Str 15. Benefit: You can use this as a double weapon (otherwise you're limited to using it as a long-handled waraxe).

Dwarven Waraxe: Dwarf, or Str 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty (it's an unbalanced weapon, heavy toward the head).

Gnome hooked hammer: Gnome and Dex 13 OR Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: You can use this as a double weapon (otherwise you're limited to using the weapon as a hammer only, dealing 1d8 bludgeoning).

Kama: Shouldn't be exotic. It's nothing more than a modified sickle, with exactly the same stats. I would actually nerf the sickle's damage to 1d4, since it's not designed to be used as a weapon, and this would make the kama a better choice.

Net: Dex 13, Wis 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty and it takes twice as long to fold. Another weapon that shouldn't be exotic, but nets are hard to use properly - if you don't throw it right, it won't spread out and catch someone.

Nunchaku: Dex 15. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty. (I'm thinking about adding some ability to entangle/disarm; I've seen it many times in movies, where the martial artist wraps the nunchaku around a weapon or the opponent's hand/arm, but I'm not sure how to make it work in D&D terms).

Orc Double Axe: Str 15 OR Orc and Str 13. Benefit: Without the prereqs, you suffer a -2 attack penalty.

Sai: Str 13, Dex 13. Benefit: You gain the bonus to disarm attempts.

Shuriken: Shouldn't be exotic. They're thrown weapons that deal 1d2 damage - whoopdedoo. Make them martial and have done with it.

Siangham: Dex 13. Benefit: ???. I'm honestly unsure what to do with this thing, since I have no idea what a siangham IS, beyond what I can see from the picture. It looks like nothing more than a hand-held dart. Maybe it enables you to throw it as a dagger?

Spiked chain: Dex 15. Benefit: Can use the chain to make trip/entangle attacks. (I've also dropped the damage to 1d6.)

Two-bladed sword: Should not be an exotic weapon - all it is, is a staff with blades on both ends. I'd reduce the damage to 1d6 so it's not equivalent to wielding two longswords (this is actually better, since it's a double weapon and the off-end is considered light).

Whip: Dex 13. Benefit: You can make trip/entangle attacks. (The requirement is lower here because whips deal less damage.)

[Knight-of-Roses]

An interesting idea. Personally I dislike double weapons as they are just too silly and spiked chains as being too (game) mechanically efficient.

And why is a hand crossbow exotic!? It is pistol sized crossbow, you point it and pull the trigger. Its damage and range both are poor, there is no need for it to be anything other than a simple weapon (which is where all crossbows -except repeating- are in my campaign).

Wish there was some way to expand the pre-req out beyond just stats though. Say for Net: Rope Use 4, Profession (fisher) 2 or Dex 11 & Wis 13?

[Hawken]

In my games, I allow Fighters to be proficient with Exotic weapons as part of their class; all others have to gain proficiency.

I think I see what you're trying to do, Kerrick, but I just don't think it works. I tried something like this years ago and could never work something out I was happy with. I don't think its so easy to do this with the existing rules. Something has to be changed, maybe a new rule/mechanic created.

For example:
Bastard Sword: Too easy to meet. Everyone with a 13+ Str would be wielding this weapon. The longsword would go the way of the dodo and probably the greatsword as well.

Hand Crossbow: Why the Int requirement? This is perhaps the easiest weapon in the book to use, next to the club. Load, point and shoot. Someone with a 3 Int, muchless a 13, could use this.

Repeating Crossbow: Why the 15 Dex? Why would you have to be particularly agile to use what amounts to a medieval AR-15?

Dwarven Waraxe: See Bastard Sword comment.

An alternative idea would be to create a new skill. Call it Weapon Training. Make it a class skill for anyone with a +1/level BAB. Every 2 ranks in the skill, the person gets "proficiency" with an exotic weapon. You don't even really need to award skill points. You could give characters 1 point per point of BAB, if you wanted.

[Kerrick]

Originally Posted by Knight-of-Roses

An interesting idea. Personally I dislike double weapons as they are just too silly and spiked chains as being too (game) mechanically efficient.

There's noting wrong with double weapons; the staff is a time-honored and very effective weapon. Spiked chains aren't so bad if you drop the damage, IMO. They're really effective for only one build (the trip-monkey).

And why is a hand crossbow exotic!? It is pistol sized crossbow, you point it and pull the trigger. Its damage and range both are poor, there is no need for it to be anything other than a simple weapon (which is where all crossbows -except repeating- are in my campaign).

Because... it's small and you can fire it with one hand? Hell if I know. I think I'll just make that one simple too, and make the repeating martial with no prereqs.

Wish there was some way to expand the pre-req out beyond just stats though. Say for Net: Rope Use 4, Profession (fisher) 2 or Dex 11 & Wis 13?

You could easily do that... the problem is coming up with appropriate skills. Stats are easy to meet, because everyone gets them equally, but skills aren't so much (unless you use the 1:1 system). The guy on the other thread had skill suggestions, but they were rather awkward (like Balance).

Originally Posted by Hawken

In my games, I allow Fighters to be proficient with Exotic weapons as part of their class; all others have to gain proficiency.

I think I see what you're trying to do, Kerrick, but I just don't think it works. I tried something like this years ago and could never work something out I was happy with. I don't think its so easy to do this with the existing rules. Something has to be changed, maybe a new rule/mechanic created.

I'm not above creating new rules, if need be. As long as they make sense.

For example:
Bastard Sword: Too easy to meet. Everyone with a 13+ Str would be wielding this weapon. The longsword would go the way of the dodo and probably the greatsword as well.

I think the problem is that one-handed weapons wielded two-handed grant the same benefit (Str x1.5) as a straight-up two-hander. The bastard sword thus becomes the best all-around weapon - it doesn't deal more damage than a greatsword, but it certainly deals more than a longsword, which makes it more useful. If we dropped the damage to 2d4, it would be comparable to a longsword (and similar to the broadsword from previous editions), and then we could simply make it a martial weapon with no prereqs. Course, then it would probably be superfluous, but then bastard swords were pretty rare, historically speaking. I wouldn't shed a tear if they vanished, but people would bitch because their favorite PC could no longer use one.

Hand Crossbow: Why the Int requirement? This is perhaps the easiest weapon in the book to use, next to the club. Load, point and shoot. Someone with a 3 Int, muchless a 13, could use this.

Not sure, honestly.

Repeating Crossbow: Why the 15 Dex? Why would you have to be particularly agile to use what amounts to a medieval AR-15?

I think it was the fact that you have to yank the lever back between each shot.

An alternative idea would be to create a new skill. Call it Weapon Training. Make it a class skill for anyone with a +1/level BAB. Every 2 ranks in the skill, the person gets "proficiency" with an exotic weapon. You don't even really need to award skill points. You could give characters 1 point per point of BAB, if you wanted.

I'd just include them in weapon groups and you could gain proficiency if you chose the group, but that would obviate the whole purpose of the EWP feat (which is largely useless anyway...).

Maybe you can gain proficiency through the weapon group... I changed Martial WP so that you gain proficiency in a weapon group - taking it would grant you a handful of martial weapons and one or more exotics, depending on the group (right now, I don't have the exotics mixed in, for the reason I mentioned above). I'd have to change fighter classes so that they gain only, say, 3 groups (plus all simple weapons) instead of all martial weapons, but that sounds like a good idea on first thought - I've never understood why they know how to use such a broad variety of weapons.

I've already kind of done this for fighters - they have expanded weapon groups (with exotics added in) and can choose to take Weapon Focus with that group of weapons every five levels, or Weapon Spec./etc. for a given weapon; I can let them choose a new weapon group also.