Software, Computers, Video Games and D&D UtilitiesGeneral discussion on computer software and hardware, PC and console games, and RPG utilities such as eTools, PC GEN, etc.
(Luke, I had some fun finding RPM; perhaps a link should be in your .sig?)
Have you seen/tried DMGenie? It seems to compare very favorably to RPM, although I will admit that the author of DMGenie is so far reluctant to address the networking aspect. Things that I like about it: customizable using VBscript, programmable user interface (buttons execute user-defined VBscript code), condition tracking, mapping with "hotspots" (links to other areas of an adventure), creatures/items movable on the map, random encounter generation via statblocks, item tracking (magical weapons/armor, wand charges, etc), inventory items as containers, support for familiars/animal companions/special mounts via scriptable feats (very flexible and easy for the user to further customize), combat tracker (rounds and initiative), and combat log (RTF control).
Things I don't like: written in VB (no speed demon), not open source (I've considered writing my own in Java or C++ and open sourcing it), scripting support for spells/psionics and magic items is underway but not complete, needs some kind of "equipment set" so that creatures can easily switch from "melee" to "ranged" mode without having to manually wield weapons and such (only a few clicks, but still...), and lack of networking.
I've just downloaded RPM so I'll try it out in the next few days. I remember trying it a long time ago, but it has been quite awhile. Who knows? With fog-of-war support, I might even switch to RPM!
(Luke, I had some fun finding RPM; perhaps a link should be in your .sig?)
Have you seen/tried DMGenie? It seems to compare very favorably to RPM, although I will admit that the author of DMGenie is so far reluctant to address the networking aspect. Things that I like about it: customizable using VBscript, programmable user interface (buttons execute user-defined VBscript code), condition tracking, mapping with "hotspots" (links to other areas of an adventure), creatures/items movable on the map, random encounter generation via statblocks, item tracking (magical weapons/armor, wand charges, etc), inventory items as containers, support for familiars/animal companions/special mounts via scriptable feats (very flexible and easy for the user to further customize), combat tracker (rounds and initiative), and combat log (RTF control).
Things I don't like: written in VB (no speed demon), not open source (I've considered writing my own in Java or C++ and open sourcing it), scripting support for spells/psionics and magic items is underway but not complete, needs some kind of "equipment set" so that creatures can easily switch from "melee" to "ranged" mode without having to manually wield weapons and such (only a few clicks, but still...), and lack of networking.
I've just downloaded RPM so I'll try it out in the next few days. I remember trying it a long time ago, but it has been quite awhile. Who knows? With fog-of-war support, I might even switch to RPM!
I have used tried dmgenie and roleplaying master and I will say, while it has its problems, dm genie is the best. RPM crashes alot on both of my systems (and i have a gig of memory). Plus the ease of use is very difficult to begin and even then the information is not right there in front of you.
DM genie is pretty easy and visually more appealing. The maps from dundjinni incorporate easily into it. Plus with vb its very customizable. I figured out a way to reallsitically incoprotate the elements of magic point system into the system.
The gripes I have is that they do not have a universal notes system that carry's from eon adventure to the next, and the weather system doesnt have a location specific weather pattern.
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[quote=DonTadow]
DM genie is pretty easy and visually more appealing. The maps from dundjinni incorporate easily into it. Plus with vb its very customizable. I figured out a way to reallsitically incoprotate the elements of magic point system into the system.
[quote]
"Visually more appealing" is pretty much personal taste. It uses pretty much a standard windows interface. RPM originally had such an interface, and with all the windows and information availabe, it turned out eventually that most preferred the colour-coded skinning approach.
Its one of those things where you'll always find certain people prefer "the other way", whatever way you choose.
RPM has a very open, powerful flexible scripting capability. The scripting facility is also built into the dataset management, so that those producing different genre d20 datasets can easily make it available to others.
RPM will also take maps from other sources, even to the extend of utilizing CC2 .emf exports so that you can zoom your maps without the graininess you get from zooming bitmaps.
Additionally, you have a fully fledged, very powerful map editing capability for creating original maps on the fly.
I should also mention something that has come up in RPM discussions - a genuine stacking rules capability in the RPG engine. Don't just look at things like AC. Apparantly there are some serious concerns with the app you chose. This amazed me, since to the mind of many, its getting all the stacking rules ultimately correct that is what has people leaning most to using a computer in-game.
Anyway, I'd really appreciate it if this thread could stay on topic concerning networking. I really don't want it to fizzle on one of those "my app is better than yours" kind of discussions. Since there's no such thing for DMGenie, its particularly irrelevant.
Hopefully we can get the FEATURES right for what people want, and I can make it available. If others also want to go ahead and make other stuff available - then great!
Lets talk about NETWORKING FEATURES - please...
I see that networking should support tabletop and internet gameplay. The networking cababilities should such that both methods can be used.
I typically break gameplay into 4 phases, adventuring, combat, rewards, character development.
My thoughts:
Adventuring:
Chat, common map display, a place to share NPC pictures, skill checks, dynamic map, (all not revealed at once). Sound Effects. (either streamed or locally stored, remotely triggered)
Combat:
networked combat management engine, players able to see what other players and mob's are doing while planning thier next move. Players able to move thier character on the combat map
rewards:
Dm driven Xp distribution. DM can give items directly or place items into a queue and allow players to divy up rewardst,
Character Development:
Dm can change any value on character sheets, Players are limited to using the leveling wizard. Creation of a Class Creation Wizard so that the DM can create custom prestige classes easier.
Those are the ideas that come to mind when talking about networked RPG games. I really enjoy using RoleplayingMaster. I love how it allows me to focus on the story and gameplay instead of spending tons of time on the technical specifics.
I should also mention something that has come up in RPM discussions - a genuine stacking rules capability in the RPG engine. Don't just look at things like AC. Apparantly there are some serious concerns with the app you chose. This amazed me, since to the mind of many, its getting all the stacking rules ultimately correct that is what has people leaning most to using a computer in-game.
FYI - The recent 2.15 release of DMGenie has full stacking rules.
Quote:
Originally Posted by LUKE
Hopefully we can get the FEATURES right for what people want, and I can make it available. If others also want to go ahead and make other stuff available - then great!
Lets talk about NETWORKING FEATURES - please...
1. Accurate, Complete, easy to understand documentation is a must. Some people (especially myself) won't use a program if we have to waste time figuring out how to perform simple things in the software.
2. Customizable Avatar icons. Not just miniatures on the battle-map - I'm talking about optional displays in the chats, and as an indicator for who's turn it is.
3. Somebody mentioned spell-effect overlays - they should be done in a manner consistent with the map overlay type. So if it's a square grid, a 30' radius spell effect should be displayed in 5' square chunks arranged according to the DMG layouts when the player is placing it.
4. Three layers to the mapper - Fog of war, Player Map, DM Secrets. From the DM side the top two should be partially transparent. There should also be a quick and easy way to erase each layer to reveal items beneath it (traps, secret doors, etc...). The players should see a view with each layer opaque.
5. EASY way to scale the grid to the map, as well as an easy way to scale the entire map/grid so that when you're using an overhead projector you can easily adjust the grid into 1" squares.
6. Movement planning - some method for the players to pre-plan moves (and see potential for AoA).
Not sure what you meant about planning movement, though. My current work simply allows players to move around their own PCs, and all connected maps simply update. I'm thinking about the DM being able to apply a temporary "lockdown" during turn processing for other creatures.
One thing I want to avoid (and this is my general RPG app philosophy), is a very regimented program, where (for example) players can only move their own PCs strictly in sequence - at all times.
This would be annoying for the all too common scenario where a DM says something like "Okay now, I need you all to tell me exactly where in the room you're standing." Generally there are times when free-for-all placement of connected players is a good thing.
I was also thinking that players simply move their PCs on the map as their movement turn comes up. Very often, creatures that had a turn just before them may well have moved (at least a 5' step). This means that a "movement plan" perhaps isn't worth all the effort, since you may not know exactly where you want to move to until its actually your turn (given the possible movements of those just before you).
In my current work you just drag around, and others see it in real-time.
[quote=Luke]Not sure what you meant about planning movement, though. My current work simply allows players to move around their own PCs, and all connected maps simply update. I'm thinking about the DM being able to apply a temporary "lockdown" during turn processing for other creatures.[.QUOTE]
I'm more talking about planning their actual move on their "turn". In table-top games we have a rule where you have to declare "I'm moving here" while actually tapping your miniature in each square while you count off the movement out loud. This lets people explore various movement options to see which paths get them which distances and provoke (or not) attacks of opportunity. After they've decided, they tap-tap-tap their way through the movement and we resolve AoO on the way.
It seems like if you're just allowing them to slide around counters without actually marking movement it could lead to arguments (I didn't move through that square!) and confusion when people just slide the counter to the destination without any indication of the path it took to get there.
Allow the player to have adjustable "templates" they can overlay on the map
Such as for reach -- playing a normally large creature which has had enlarge creature cast on him and has picked up a new reach weapon makes things just as interesting as the exact placement of the wizard's fireball.
The template should be easily removed by the player when it's not needed.
I'm more talking about planning their actual move on their "turn".
I like the way Klooge handles this with a temporary line following your movement on the map for all to see... That with an easy 'undo' would probably satisfy the trial and error too.
I'm very happy to hear about your recent network work and look forward to the beta.
What I believe others have said, and is very *very* important is that while play progresses around the table... which (a) should be shown in an "initive order" list somewhere on the players interface (b) along with a message constantly updating saying how many player/creatures are in front of you, before you need to act.
What we need is for the player to be able to (c) mark the exact path he is going to take, and thus as he clicks each square, it will color code saying if that square is affected by some combat modifier such as ... [Entering Control of Moster B], [AoO: Leaving Control of Monster B] in which the player then right clicks the desired squares and chooses another square so as to not disturb them. (d) As thiis player is clicking squares a list is building of his actions [Change Speed: Run] [Move North] [Move Northeast]... or ... [Cast Spell: Fireball] [Move South].
At any time a move or effect is made that would alter the presently entered 'turn' [note: this means there is an update run on each characters temporary move] by the character such a creature enters or exits his spell effect area, etc then it would alert and allow the player, (e) if they wanted to click the step previous to that and restart, or they could just restart from the begininning.
This process is generally what is done as players huddle over the map, counting squares for their ranges, etc. As a DM you always say... "please be ready with your turn"... but it never happens. With this you could time each player and award bonuses for quick play.
What woud be really nice is if there was a list of available choices for players to click on, and potentially if an action was unavailable the reason why it was for that character at that time. For example if you are laying prone, a lot of options are not available to you. It would be nice if your list of choices reported that (f) as well as a status area for yourself.
What I'm really talking about is a process that speeds up turns and fully empowers the DM to be able to manage play over long distances over the internet without having to explain a lot, as hopefully its all right there.
I've already done a lot of work, and I can see that I'll need to implement the full set of features in stages.
Everyone is welcome to try out the first beta update as of today. If you don't have the program already installed (so that you can apply the update file), please download and install that first.
I've started off with some solid basics, and will look to make frequest updates. I'll do another post here very soon, to explain whats already in the initial update.
I don't know if it's too late to say any ideas that a few of my friends and I have about something like this, but I'll say them anyway.
1.) Be able to connect through the internet. Allow the players to join a channel or 'server' that the DM hosts.
2.) Have quick monster/treasure slots so that way if the DM is using the same type of monster over again, they just bring down the slot and click and it'll bring a set version of it up (or even a slightly stronger or weaker one, depending on a range of 'hit points' or 'armor class' you give it)
3.) Be able to add your own skills, spells, classes, feats, races, weapons, armor. If you want this to be the best thing, it should be as versitile as ever. Especailly if you are going to support most D20 games. Even being able to add in new slots for weapon quality/material. (I.E. Material: Fine Steel, Quality: Exceptional, Base Weapon: Long Sword Enchantments/Enhancements: Flaming, +2, Keen) The weapons and armor alone can be modified by each DM to an insane amount, so why not just add in a list where they can put in their own weapons and armor? Add in an 'Other' slot so they can add in any modifer for their weapons and armor.
That's all I really have to say for now...I'll be checking in to see if you have any questions about this, or would like any other ideas...I've been looking for a good D20 program to help me and my DnD group stay together since we're far away, and I think there is a lot of potential in this.
I don't know if it's too late to say any ideas that a few of my friends and I have about something like this, but I'll say them anyway.
Not too late. I'm doing a staged implementation, with the initial version available now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timat
1.) Be able to connect through the internet. Allow the players to join a channel or 'server' that the DM hosts.
Absolutely. When the DM sets himself up as a server (a quick mouse click), players on either a local network, or the internet, can join in. To make it simple, players have a 'Discovery' button, which will automatically find other people on the local LANs, or those on the internet.
It is *very* simple, except that DMs set up behind router firewalls and NAT could have to do a little configuration work (unaviodable in modern networking).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timat
2.) Have quick monster/treasure slots so that way if the DM is using the same type of monster over again, they just bring down the slot and click and it'll bring a set version of it up (or even a slightly stronger or weaker one, depending on a range of 'hit points' or 'armor class' you give it)
You can have as big a group of templated monsters or NPCs as you like, then simply "Copy" a selected creature, and then drag the copy onto the map. You can just as easily create new monsters, or generate random encounters, directly on the map. That includes options to automatically add appropriate feats, equipment, and even generate spell lists. Even a reasonably large high level encounter can be generated in this way in a few seconds.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timat
3.) Be able to add your own skills, spells, classes, feats, races, weapons, armor. If you want this to be the best thing, it should be as versitile as ever. Especailly if you are going to support most D20 games. Even being able to add in new slots for weapon quality/material. (I.E. Material: Fine Steel, Quality: Exceptional, Base Weapon: Long Sword Enchantments/Enhancements: Flaming, +2, Keen) The weapons and armor alone can be modified by each DM to an insane amount, so why not just add in a list where they can put in their own weapons and armor? Add in an 'Other' slot so they can add in any modifer for their weapons and armor.
The program is already, unquestionnably, the most open and flexible RPG tool when it comes to generating your own d20 datasets (complete with classes, races, items, feats, skills, spells, etc etc) - and being able to include any game mechanics for in-game play. There's a yahoo site of fans that create and share this material.
Sounds great. I'd love to take a look at the beta. I've been using OpenRPG regularly for a couple of years now, so it would be nice to see something else. It would be nice. Now, howzabout a linkie to your program please?
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Last edited by Hussar; 21st June 2005 at 05:22 AM..
Sounds great. I'd love to take a look at the beta. I've been using OpenRPG regularly for a couple of years now, so it would be nice to see something else. It would be nice. Now, howzabout a linkie to your program please?
Oops. You can get it from my website at RolePlayingMaster. Since this is currently a beta, you need to have the full program installed, before you apply the beta update.
1) The basic application
2) Networking Connectivity.
3) Networked battlemap features
Feature breakdown:
1) The basic application
--------------------
This is really just the already existing RPM program, but is repeated here for anyone unfamiliar with the program.
1.1 Adventure preparation - a fully-fledged adventure builder that lets you build a hierarchy of notes, optionally based on the official recommendations for adventure structure. You can also construct maps, complete with locations (DM and player descriptions), and encounter groups.
1.2 Monster/NPC/PC generation - a full generation capability, which caters for different d20 datasets. This includes generators for equipment, spell lists, feats, etc, to build complete encounters very quickly. Quick enough to do at the gaming table, on-the-fly.
1.3 Combat management - full initiative and action management (attacks, skill checks, spell casting, other miscellaneous actions), followed by automated XP calculation at the end of an encounter
2) Networking Connectivity
-----------------------
This describes how networking works.
2.1 Connencting: A DM becomes a game server with a simple networking selection option. Some people will discover that they are prevented from becoming a game server (eg. behind a protected firewall , or a router with NAT enabled). I will publish some information for those who need to overcome such an obstacle.
2.2 Security: A DM can maintain a list of accepted players and optional passwords. This gives security if players are connecting over the internet. To make things easier, the DM can elect to accept a connection from a player when they first connect, which adds them to the player list for future connections.
2.2 After a DM becomes a game server, players can connect to it. There are 2 basic kinds of connections - on a local network, or via the internet. The RPM program will automatically find any players on the internet, or on a local network (be it dial-up, ethernet cable, wireless connction, or any combination of those). This makes it easy to find the DM you need to connect to.
2.3 At any time you can perform a new search to see who is currently on the internet, or who is on your local network Only players really need to do this. DMs typically just set themselves into networking mode and then wait for players to connect.
2.4 Optimizing performance - this is very important, with the challenge being to provide full flexibility, whilst offering good performance crucial to smooth gameplay flow.
For this the program has the following features "under the hood::
2.4.1 - A network layer optimized for speed. This is mostly about rationalizing messages to limit what is needed to be transferred, and then using message compression to share the data around.
2.4.2 - Image management. The player application automatically detects when it needs to get new images (be they complete maps, textures, or simply monster images), and requests them. They are transferred, on demand, from the DM game server. RPM manages a library of images, and encourages re-use of the image library, whcih means that you shouldn't often need to request new images.
The overall effect is that images are typically sent after the first connection, and after that only if the DM does some "on-the-spot" changes.
2.4.5 - Map updates. Simple movement of creatures on a map is automatically handled quickly and simply by the networking - updating all player clients. If the DM does extra changes (such as changing location markers, or making non-image changes), then that kind of change is relatively small (compared to adding images), and is quickly transmitted.
3) Networked battlemap features
--------------------------------
Whilst the application is a fully-featured RPG engine, with all sorts of capabilities, the BattleMap is the "nerve-centre" for networked operation.
3.1 BattleMap: The Battlemap is used as the focal point when entering networked mode. If there is no current BattleMap, then one will be created.
3.2 Adventure details: The current advanture and map becomes the context for a network game when networking. At any time, the DM could switch to a different map (or even adventure), and press the "Player Map Update" button to make it the current game context.
3.3 Chat facilities: At the moment these are very basic, and don't incorporate the more excellent suggestions made by various people. Its a simple ability to players to speak to All, the DM, or another player. The DM sees all.
3.4 Performing actions (attacks/saves/skill checks etc): This is partially done, but not yet properly implemented for players. This is a very key part of the design, and should minimise the need for archaic chatting facilities. The idea is that the DM and players can nominate targets (if necessary), and then perform actions. RPM has advanced combat management capabilities for this, which give the DM a full view of all effects and options. In a later release, the players will get to see their own information (as appropriate).
3.5 Dice Rolling: All actions will be manged at the DMs computer, but players will still get to roll their dice. This could include things such as attack rolls, and then damage, crit attempts. In a subsequent release, player dice rolls will initiate from the DM's computer, but result in dice rolling pop-ups on the player screen. Without any opportunity for cheating, the player will press a "Roll Dice" button, which will send the result back.
<<<< More to come on the mapping button functionality >>>>
I gotta say, that's pretty Impressive. You've done a really good job creating it, and you are (no joke) the first person who already had the things I mentioned earlier in this kind of program. And if this is just the Beta version, I'd like to see when you get even more of it up and running! Great job, keep it up!
Things that I like about it: customizable using VBscript, programmable user interface (buttons execute user-defined VBscript code), condition tracking, mapping with "hotspots" (links to other areas of an adventure), creatures/items movable on the map, random encounter generation via statblocks, item tracking (magical weapons/armor, wand charges, etc), inventory items as containers, support for familiars/animal companions/special mounts via scriptable feats (very flexible and easy for the user to further customize), combat tracker (rounds and initiative), and combat log (RTF control).
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