Software, Computers, Video Games and D&D UtilitiesGeneral discussion on computer software and hardware, PC and console games, and RPG utilities such as eTools, PC GEN, etc.
What features does the ultimate RPG tool have for networking at the tabletop?
I want to build it, and could well already be a long way down the track.
Whilst things stay pretty much invisible here in the software forum and it'll be hard to get feedback, the general forum had a massive thread about using a projector and a computer to show maps on the tabletop. It just goes to show that very many players get great results when the right tools are available.
Its a very open-ended question, but rather than prejudice any early responses, I'll just mention very briefly the sorts of general things I'm talking about:
1) A tool that the DM can use, which, by itself, has very strong D&D/D20 capabilities - when used at the table-top. This would include stuff such as generating characters/NPCs/monsters, adventure notes, maps, locations and encounters. It would have a great mapping tool, but also let you use maps from apps like CC2 or Fractal mapper.
2) the mapper would be interactive, letting you easily move PCs and creatures around on the map. You would also be able to do things like quickly generate encounters on the map.
3) Even without networking, the DM's app should have a "Player Window", which could show a player's version of the map (revealing only appropriate sections), and also show any other pics or info that the DM has available.
This would be especially great if the DM's PC has a 2nd monitor, as the players could be continually updated with the current map, and other info.
4) The DM's app should be able to network with 1 or more players using their own PC. This could be another computer at the table, or even across the internet. This should give the players a great interactive map, allowing them to move their own PCs and creatures around the map. Stuff like chat would also be needed.
Preferably, they could also perform actions (like attacks and saves), which would interact with the DM's PC, and you would get a lot of game mechanics automatically calculated for you.
A great option would be to have players able to move their creatures, select actions, and then enter dice rolls (or push a button to roll dice), and have the DM oversee and manage the game mechanics that result.
5) It would also be nice to have the DM's app be a web server, where players without a special player app could even use a browser. You can't expect too much from a browser, but you could at least get a latest picture of the map, and perhaps even a chat facility.
Quality and ease-of-use would be very important. I realize that a smooth-paced quality internet app would have very, very demanding features, but I'm not too concerned about that.
So, what are the killer features? Things could obviously be a lot better than simply using a projector to show maps on the table. It seems obvious that there's a lot to be gained if we have the ultimate RPG networked at - even for just using at the table.
I'll look to complete a detailed list of features that I'll post later.
You should allow the dm to send information to certain characters but not all. For example the skill focused rogue might hear someone snoring down the hall where the rest do not.
You should allow Characters to chat/whisper between themselves. So that they can plan actions that the DM can see for plot reasons (IE: seedy fighter and rough rogue type are planning to rip the party off, or steal from a local) That way the dm can make listen, spot checks for other characters to build plot. A way for the PC's to plot actions unknown to the DM.
I'd like to see the capability to import maps (in .jpg or .bmp format), since I have used all sorts of computer mapping programs and have decided that handdrawn is the only way to fly.
You should allow Characters to chat/whisper between themselves
Thanks. My current work allows for selcting the DM, All, or a specific player. I had thought about multi-select of specific players, but it needs a more complex user interface than a simple single selection. I had thought of multi-select as being more of a "future feature" - but this is the purpose of my open question. To find out what people are asking for!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wonko the Sane
I'd like to see the capability to import maps (in .jpg or .bmp format),
Absolutely! Already done + also import .emf and .wmf files. The .emf and .wmf formats (supported by apps like CC2) are vector-based, and are great for creating big maps that zoom in with great precision.
Allow the player to have adjustable "templates" they can overlay on the map - mainly for spellcasters but others may find a use. Allow them to move them around themselves. That way the mage can place his fireball precisely.
__________________
The only way you can hurt a man who has lost everything is to reincarnate him as a kender.
1 -Ability to make global checks for skills, saves (menu based or a simplified character sheet) .
Example The Dm clicks "spot" and sees failed by x in red , or success by y in green next to the char's names in the list of players/npcs/monsters.
The x/y value is much more useful than a simple failed/success because it allows the DM to integrate things that the computer can't realistically compute (like : I give redgar a -2 because he's focusing too much on the waitress )
2- ability to restrict chat between users
3- monitoring spell durations/ conditions for each player/npc/monster
4 - ability to define and activate/deactivate triggers for alerts ( in a non intrusive way, like in a status bar or message bar) like : any PC under X HP
Chacal
Last edited by Chacal; 21st April 2005 at 06:11 PM..
Allow the player to have adjustable "templates" they can overlay on the map - mainly for spellcasters but others may find a use. Allow them to move them around themselves. That way the mage can place his fireball precisely.
Sorry - not sure what you mean about "templates". is this something to do with area effect spells?
I currently have the ability to select multiple targets for something like a spell. That's up to a human to manually choose which creatures are targets of a current action. Its simple - a lot simpler than trying somehow describe an area of effect which will automatically select targets in the area.
Whilst I hope to get away with manual selection initially, I'm keen to know if an area of effect auto-select is seen as been very desireable. There are complications with things such as cover, and also options for actions such as a lightening bolt, which could have different "templates".
Could it be that a player could simply, manually select targets, and a DM could over-ride the selection, based on intricacies such as cover (not easily, automatically modelled by computers)
Sorry - not sure what you mean about "templates". is this something to do with area effect spells?
I currently have the ability to select multiple targets for something like a spell. That's up to a human to manually choose which creatures are targets of a current action. Its simple - a lot simpler than trying somehow describe an area of effect which will automatically select targets in the area.
Whilst I hope to get away with manual selection initially, I'm keen to know if an area of effect auto-select is seen as been very desireable. There are complications with things such as cover, and also options for actions such as a lightening bolt, which could have different "templates".
Could it be that a player could simply, manually select targets, and a DM could over-ride the selection, based on intricacies such as cover (not easily, automatically modelled by computers)
What I mean is that a player could call up a translucent object defining an area of effect. For example, a 20' radius circle to place on the map where he wants to detonate his fireball. This would allow him to make fine adjustments so as to maximize the effectiveness himself.
Another thing - I say allow chat between players, but also allow the DM to monitor it, without them knowing preferably.
__________________
The only way you can hurt a man who has lost everything is to reincarnate him as a kender.
Pretty much most d20/gaming programs today take a Ph.D to use effectively. My computer has a track record, I purchase a d20 program, install it.. <few weeks later> It gets removed. Because most of the software is not re-purchased for newer versions there is no drive to keep the old customer base happy and using the software (Yeah I know, free upgrades are always nice.. if you are actually using the program).
What I mean is that a player could call up a translucent object defining an area of effect...
Another thing - I say allow chat between players, but also allow the DM to monitor it, without them knowing preferably.
Got it. Cool idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vascant
This may sound odd, but how about easy to use?...
Pretty much most d20/gaming programs today take a Ph.D to use effectively
Agreed. As I said: "Quality and ease-of-use would be very important."
I find that I'm continually tweaking over time to make things more and more intuitive. My current mapper is getting a heavy work-over - especially for shared networking.
Since D&D/D20 attempts a reasonable "reality simulation" through what must be the most rules intensive game in the entire world, its pretty inevitable that software attempting to carry out that simulation wont be easily intuitive without a lot of effort.
Personally, I go for a "phased option approach". The idea is to let people do whatever they want, at the level they want. Program features should have a simple level, but also allow you to dig deeper for extra automation - if you're comfortable with that.
Simple example: Use a few mouse clicks to generate an encounter (complete with equipment, extra feats, spell lists etc), and then just work from the resulting statblocks, or creature info window.
Using the full available functionality, you might actually add spell effects, item effects and conditions to your character/creature - making a bit more effort, and getting more accurate results.
Extended example (from my last gaming session):Last week my party encountered a dragon. I'm using the full software capabilities for my character.
1) Green dragon approaches, and DM asks for a Will save, and 3 mouse clicks later I have my full breakdown for my will save. I uncheck the potential elvish enchantment bonus, and thankfully note that the "Bless" still in effect from our Cleric does apply. A double click on my "Bless" condition confirms this in the description from the spell - without checking from the book.
2) I fail my save, and use 3 mouse clicks and 2 key presses to add the "Frightened" condition to my character.
3) A short while later, we're all rolling a reflex save to avoid the full effects of the dragon's breath weapon. It turs out that I only just failed my save. The clincher was that I was frightened and it cost me a -2.
The main point here is that those not using the program (no laptop) forgot to apply their -2 to their save for being frightened. When I realized that, a further check revealed that a couple also forget to apply the +1 from the Bless in their original save. Its very easy to play inaccurately without a computer to remind you of all the effects in play.
Does it take and need a PhD to get this kind of software support to be of real benefit?
Personally, I know that good software can make it work well, although it may take some familiarization to know exactly what the few mouse-clicks or key presses are to get the results. For DMs? Indespensible! From 3rd edition onwards, DMs have the complexity of effectively trying to manage a hoard of PCs, since monsters and NPCs do have a PC level of complexity.
I'm confident in saying that DMs simply cannot play with the accuracy of the rules as presented in the books (especially high level encounters) - unless they have a good software tool to help them. I realize that this could inflame some, and if you want to challenge me on this point - please start a different thread for a challenge, and I'll join you there . Sure, DMs can be accurate , if they take a very boringly long amount of time for each creature action. Don't forget the dizzying array of modifers that you can start off with (depending on equipment in use, feat options <power attack/point blank range/expertise/rapid shot/etc etc>, spell effects, class abilities, race abilities - and the kicker --> how all the different effects actually combine with the stacking rules !!!).
Anyway, however you play, my personal experience is that having strong software options available to you as options is ALL GOOD
I would like to be able to use Role Playing Master right alongside Fantasy Grounds when running a network game as a DM. Role Playing Master sports a ton of great features (such as battle management) that Fantasy Grounds will never support (supposedly because of D20 licensing issues), and so the two applications could complement each other nicely. It would be nice to be able share data between the two (such as being able to drag & drop combat information from Role Playing Master to Fantasy Grounds). Of course, this would only be possible if SmiteWorks (the company that develops Fantasy Grounds) were willing to provide support to Luke (via sharing of API libraries, data formats, etc.) I don't know if this sort of collaboration would fly with SmiteWorks, but the idea is not out of the question, since they have planned to cooperate with Code Monkey Publishing (the maintainers of E-Tools and PCGen) to create content.
[quote=ToneDeF]I would like to be able to use Role Playing Master right alongside Fantasy Grounds when running a network game as a DM...QUOTE]
Tried their download on 2 different PCs, and both had problems related to DirectX. It doesn't seem like an uncommon issue on their message board, so I might look back in another month.
The doco for it didn't seem to offer anything special that I don't intend anyway - which is helpful, since its typically difficult to try and get different companies to co-operate with software integration.
Perhaps stating the features that so you like from it would be useful.
One key difference might be the use of screen real-estate. I'm pretty much committed to presenting as much information as possible in the available screen space. Very pretty, graphical displays to tend to use a lot of screen real-estate in the cause of "eye candy". The game mechanics of 3rd edition RPG tend to cry out for information rather than eye candy.
Still, the ultimate test for the individual is what works best for them. Some may be happy to stay with eye candy, whereas others (most, in my unqualified opinion) will get over that after a while, and would desire the information over the pretty graphics.
Dunno - hard to call. Since you're asking to have both apps integrated, perhaps you want the best of both worlds? That still leaves the problem of managing screen real-estate well, with the additional problem of two apps, rather than one.
Maybe you could give me the chance to give you the best of both worlds in a single, integrated, optimized application. It may seem difficult, but I'm prepared to do the hard work of making it happen, if others are simply prepared to say what would "rock their game".
Luke, honestly, what would do it for me, is similar to openRPG, the ability to play a game online, maybe not even knowing the other people personally, but be able to play, and see, everything I, either as a player or the Dm need to have infront of me.
Open RPG would say, let me go into a field marked as spot under skills, and let me instantly roll that skill, and generate the random number. The problem was that the program was very...open faced, and partly ugly, but also confusing. Getting a certain modifier to that spot roll would either require the user to edit the field (troublesome for a limited condition) or just manually roll, and add on whatever as they needed. (it also had a normal built in dice roller along the bottom of the screen)
If your going to have the DM monitor all the different chats, then you may want to set up some type of colour code. As well, each chat window would have to be logged so that the DM can go back and look at the various conversations that he did not have to monitor earlier.
You have to be careful with regards to setting up the map with auto triggers and such. When your creating maps in Never Winter Nights, you are able to set items hidden (like Traps) and set their difficulty number and on and on. I am not sure if this is the path that you want to take. Seems like a hell of a lot of coding to do, and I am not sure how well things would go over if you set it up so that you could import maps created that way.
I found the application rather complicated to start. It had a steep learning curve. Perhaps a tutoral or hints window or some such might help people who are not all that familiar with the game as a whole.
Going to continue playing with it and offer more suggestions. Those were just some preliminary thoughts and first impressions.
Luke, honestly, what would do it for me, is similar to openRPG, the ability to play a game online, maybe not even knowing the other people personally, but be able to play, and see, everything I, either as a player or the Dm need to have infront of me.
Open RPG would say, let me go into a field marked as spot under skills, and let me instantly roll that skill, and generate the random number. The problem was that the program was very...open faced, and partly ugly, but also confusing. Getting a certain modifier to that spot roll would either require the user to edit the field (troublesome for a limited condition) or just manually roll, and add on whatever as they needed. (it also had a normal built in dice roller along the bottom of the screen)
My app already has the "everything under the sun" featureset for single player mode.
You'll find that the actions window is particularly comprehensive.
Using a skill check example of an action, all the relevant modifiers are listed that apply as modifiers to a die roll. You can quickly check/uncheck anything that does/doesn't apply (such as an elvish enchantment bonus for a will check). You also automatically get all the DC modifiers and options can be quickly reviewed and selected from a combobox (such as selecting the surface type DC for a climb check).
Its similar for an attack, where the ToHit modifiers replace the skill modifiers, and the DC modifiers are automatically replaced by the targets AC details.
In addition, the full description of the action (be it an attack, save, skill check, spell, or sepcial action), is presented - to save time looking up books, or even the built-in encyclopaedic database.
The mapper itself would be quite different from OpenRPG. You would be able to create detailed maps or use other maps (such as CC2, scanned images - whatever).
I'm testing a design that allows for on-the-fly modifications, whilst ensuring acceptable speed over internet connections.
If your going to have the DM monitor all the different chats, then you may want to set up some type of colour code. As well, each chat window would have to be logged so that the DM can go back and look at the various conversations that he did not have to monitor earlier.
You have to be careful with regards to setting up the map with auto triggers and such. When your creating maps in Never Winter Nights, you are able to set items hidden (like Traps) and set their difficulty number and on and on. I am not sure if this is the path that you want to take. Seems like a hell of a lot of coding to do, and I am not sure how well things would go over if you set it up so that you could import maps created that way.
I found the application rather complicated to start. It had a steep learning curve. Perhaps a tutoral or hints window or some such might help people who are not all that familiar with the game as a whole.
Going to continue playing with it and offer more suggestions. Those were just some preliminary thoughts and first impressions.
I already plan to log the chats. The log would be a permanent individualized record, whereas the chat window would show the recent interactions - listed one after the other.
I also plan for the log to support a kind of "super comment", which goes beyond the standard chat line. This would allow copy-and-paste of images, notes, whatever - using a powerful word-processor capability.
When you say "I found the application rather complicated to start..." are you talking about NWN or RPM? I'm currently doing entensive changes to RPM to make the various aspects of networking and mapping far more intuitive.
I'm fairly ambivalent about mapping software, since a grid, some basic tokens, and the ability to draw a straight line are all that's really necessary. The killer app for me, however, is the chat functionality.
It needs to be seamless, and allow for custom aliases/changed nicks. If my character's name is Bob, I want chat to show up as <Bob> "hello". Having a DM tool to easily switch between nicks is also good. It also needs to have a /me function, so in character actions are vivid, not just described.
The dicebot needs to be robust, and have a very clear syntax. Flexability is a must, but being able to get exactly the roll you want without futzing about with a dropdown menu or looking up on a help page is crucial. Your modifiers toolbar sounds great. For the output, it needs to be annotated clearly, and allow for custom animations.
Built in character sheets/monsters/statblocks... I'm a bit hesitant about these. Sure, it may be nice to have the SRD already there, but most people know it decently enough. Having to add every custom class, PrC, feat, skill, monster, house rules, etc.... that's a pain in the ass. Keeping a paper copy or an excel sheet isn't too hard, and everyone has a different way of doing it. Regardless of how good the implimentation is, there needs to be an option to turn it off.
__________________ "Next week, I'll teach you how to build a magical fridge +3 with a wand of fireballs." - Gez
I'm fairly ambivalent about mapping software, since a grid, some basic tokens, and the ability to draw a straight line are all that's really necessary...
I tend to agree personally, but many don't. I think that its about choice. Certainly, if you don't use fancy graphics, then there's no need for the initial upload to players of whatever greaphics are required. I think that having the option to try do a lot more is very good.
Thanks for reinforcing the in-character/out-of-character chat requirement.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arc
Built in character sheets/monsters/statblocks... I'm a bit hesitant about these. Sure, it may be nice to have the SRD already there, but most people know it decently enough. Having to add every custom class, PrC, feat, skill, monster, house rules, etc.... that's a pain in the ass. Keeping a paper copy or an excel sheet isn't too hard, and everyone has a different way of doing it. Regardless of how good the implimentation is, there needs to be an option to turn it off.
Once again, I think that its about choice. With my app, the classes PrC, feats, skills, monster etc... are already in. You can also import datasets for extra stuff. Its particularly useful for DMs, who can generate an entire encounter with fully (sensibly) equipped opponents - complete with chosen feats and spell lists etc.
This is a HUGE time-saver, allowing you to play opponents with genuine variety. DMs no longer have to play their creatures as if a 10 were rolled for each ability before racial adjustments. The old problem disappears where the standard character race NPCs have varied stats, but every ogre and hobgoblin has the same Str, Dex,... Even playing "cardboard cut-outs" straight from the MM still gets you issues, when basic ability stats start getting modified by spell effects, encumbrance, magical items, standard conditions (such as stunned), poisons.
Having the option to get the computer to automatically manage all this for you - also automatically taking stacking rules into consideration, is a great thing.
Get as many people working on different little bits as possible. You don't want to do it all and the world doesn't want to be dissapointed if you get new interests or get hit by a bus.
Come up with a utility path where the thing becomes useful for something as quickly as possible. This builds enthusiasm and helps the above. Code can be refactorred rewritten etc.... but enthusiasm and sense of accomplishment are harder to maintain.
...Get as many people working on different little bits as possible. You don't want to do it all and the world doesn't want to be dissapointed if you get new interests or get hit by a bus.
...
Well, its just me, and has been for the last 3 years. RPM is already the most comprehensive RPG tool I'm aware of, and this is simply taking it to the networking level.
The huge bulk of it is already done. I'm currently :
- Testing a player PC and DM PC moving stuff around, and seeing it update live.
- Testing basic chat facilities.
- Reworking the interface to make it as easy to use as possible.
- Reworking the message layer to automatically compress/decompress byte streams for maximised performance over slow internet connections.
When I'm happy with those facets, I'll do an initial beta release.
Not all features will be immediately available, but its still very important to get all this valuable input into the wishlist as early as possible.
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