Software, Computers, Video Games and D&D UtilitiesGeneral discussion on computer software and hardware, PC and console games, and RPG utilities such as eTools, PC GEN, etc.
It's more than polish, it certainly isn't the art (cartoony art direction in WoW was a smokescreen to reduce system requirements)...
It's about design. WoW is simply a better designed game in every way.
Blizzard is the only Quadruple A developer. It spends gobs of money on design and gets it right. They keep their eyes on the prize at all times. Every element of the game is created and polished with one thing and one thing in mind only:
How does this make the game more fun?
That's it; that's all. They sometimes make compromises on a design feature that does not pass the fun test (games are, in the end, the art of the possible, even at Blizzard) but they do not choose a feature based on some ideological view of what is consistent or what "should" it be?
They choose a feature because they think it's more fun. That's the only ideology at work.
Second to that, they don't tell you how to play. They let you choose a play style and generally work towards supporting that play style - whatever it is.
So yes there is less grinding. Yes it suports more casual players at lower levels. Yes it suports more individual PvE. Yes it looks campy and kinda cool. Yes it is a stable game. Yes it has lots of Diabloesque features in its magic items.
But really - all of that ignores the creed behind Blizzard's designers: make it more fun and then polish it to a sparkling diamond.
Which just goes to show you, in the PC Games business when you get right down to it, there is Blizzard and then there is everyone else...
Dumb down a game enough to where the average idiot can be successful, make death a minor inconvience, and provide an early rigid framework to "guarantee" success for a beginner. Then market the heck out of it early, have good graphics quality, and then let word of mouth do its job.
IMHO it succeeds because it feeds upon the overwhelming fear of failure which exists in the world today. By not offerring failure it makes people more comfortable and thus able to enjoy themselves, which is pretty much the point of a game from a players point of view.
Of course, for those who do not wish to be constrained by dev events, are not risk adverse, and like to be in cool looking ships, there is always EVE ONLINE.
Dumb down a game enough to where the average idiot can be successful, make death a minor inconvience, and provide an early rigid framework to "guarantee" success for a beginner. Then market the heck out of it early, have good graphics quality, and then let word of mouth do its job.
IMHO it succeeds because it feeds upon the overwhelming fear of failure which exists in the world today. By not offerring failure it makes people more comfortable and thus able to enjoy themselves, which is pretty much the point of a game from a players point of view.
Of course, for those who do not wish to be constrained by dev events, are not risk adverse, and like to be in cool looking ships, there is always EVE ONLINE.
I was going to say something like that, albeit more diplomatically.
If you go to the Eve Online forums, a common insult is "go back to WoW". This is simply because Eve Online is probably as far opposed to WoW as you can get in an MMORPG. Andur said it correctly: the death penalty is harsh, very harsh. It is so open-ended and full of possibilities that you can easily be overwhelmed into inaction. It is so player-driven, that you can get scammed blind and the developers will not interfere. It's that real.
I'm not saying that Eve Online is a "better" game than WoW, but that it requires a totally different playstyle, so players that really love WoW will probably not like Eve Online. And vice-versa. (Although I'm generalizing)
I have to show my colors and say that Eve Online, IMHO, is one of the most successful MMORPGs I've ever seen. If you define "success" as number of subscribers, then you will disagree. But it's the most rabidly fanatic player base I've ever seen. They like the game so much that they complain and moan about things that need to be fixed, but they keep coming back to the game.
It's truly like a love affair. You have good times and bad, you have blissful moments, you have fights, you get bored, your adrenaline pumps so hard you feel your heart is going to jump out of your ribcage, you go through all states and emotions, you take a break and play other games, and yet you always come back.
To me it's no longer just a game, it's a long term project. To me, that's success.
(Andur: I'm Andargor theWise in-game, join the ENWORLD channel)
__________________ It is by will alone I set my die in motion.
It is by gaming that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by will alone I set my die in motion.
WOW is also one of the few MMORGS available for Macs. I know that there was an EQ version with pitiful support that got released and I think is now dead, but if you own a Mac and want to play an MMORG, WOW is pretty much it.
__________________ "We are all Individuals! They chanted in unison...
It's more than polish, it certainly isn't the art (cartoony art direction in WoW was a smokescreen to reduce system requirements)...
This is a great idea. I really like the art in WoW but find that it plays smooth as butter on my rig at 1600*1200 24bit color with all options maxed. That is great, lower system requirements mean people who don't buy "gamer" computers can still play. I what was once a gamer PC but now it's old. I need a new Conroe based rig. Anyone want to start up a fund for me?
P.S. MMO elitists are so adorable in thier zeal. People who play other games are invariable labled as idiots.
__________________ Hack & Slash gamer.
Last edited by Flexor the Mighty!; 27th September 2006 at 05:04 PM..
Dumb down a game enough to where the average idiot can be successful, make death a minor inconvience, and provide an early rigid framework to "guarantee" success for a beginner. Then market the heck out of it early, have good graphics quality, and then let word of mouth do its job.
IMHO it succeeds because it feeds upon the overwhelming fear of failure which exists in the world today. By not offerring failure it makes people more comfortable and thus able to enjoy themselves, which is pretty much the point of a game from a players point of view.
Of course, for those who do not wish to be constrained by dev events, are not risk adverse, and like to be in cool looking ships, there is always EVE ONLINE.
LOL. That seems a bit harsh. It really comes down to the kind of game you want to play. If you like quick and simple play that is fast to learn but has alot of longevity, then WoW is the place to go. It's really not about "fear of failure," as it is a "fear of wasting my time."
In WoW, I can play 20 minutes, die, rez, and take a small penalty. Tomorrow I will be back and ready to rock. For $15 a month this is great. And if I want to get deeper and play 4 hours a day, then there are raid, pvp, crafting, and lots of other things to do.
In Dark Age of Camelot, death had a pretty hefty price. If you die, you lose some major Xp, unless you can find the spot you died and pray for some of that xp back.
In Everquest 2, you can group with a bunch of idiots, and if one of them dies, everyone takes a penalty.
In Eve, well, you all know how Eve is.
So it's not a matter of "fear of failure." It's really a matter of time and energy. I am your typical WoW gamer -- I play a 20 minutes - 1 hour a night. I really don't have the time and energy to take massive losses because of death. Those games are better for other players -- not me.
And many WoW players are the same. It's easy to go in and play just a bit. Heck, if log out at an inn, you gain a "double xp" aura points so that you can level faster when you come back later, allowing you to better keep up with you hardcore friends. You won't get that kind of bonus in other games, but then again those other games are not really targetted a the "I don't have alot of time" gamer like me.
Each MMORPG is suited to a different kind of gamer. It just so happens that WoW is suited for the biggest target audience.
`Le
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If you go to the Eve Online forums, a common insult is "go back to WoW". This is simply because Eve Online is probably as far opposed to WoW as you can get in an MMORPG. Andur said it correctly: the death penalty is harsh, very harsh. It is so open-ended and full of possibilities that you can easily be overwhelmed into inaction. It is so player-driven, that you can get scammed blind and the developers will not interfere. It's that real.
Well, that sounds an awful lot like you're saying that the game is a success for you because it really discourages casual players, is inaccessible to all but the most fanatical and that it's hostile to newcomers. Which could be a strength, I suppose, if you're not the newcomer. That certainly jibes with reviews I've seen of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by andargor
I have to show my colors and say that Eve Online, IMHO, is one of the most successful MMORPGs I've ever seen. If you define "success" as number of subscribers, then you will disagree. But it's the most rabidly fanatic player base I've ever seen. They like the game so much that they complain and moan about things that need to be fixed, but they keep coming back to the game.
I can't name a single MMORPG that didn't have fans of that same stripe. There are still more people playing Ultima Online than Eve Online, for example. That's no measure of quality...but those are some dedicated fans, right there. I mean, even with the continual decline, they still have as many subscribers as they did in 1999. Everquest 1 has plummeted since WoW arrived, but they still command the same number of subscribers as they did in 2000. And those are some contentious fans right there...thanks to SOE's attitudes, they really have to be.
My point is, every MMORPG that I've played has a hardcore base that complains and moans but keeps coming back. Eve Online certainly has carved out a niche for itself that no one has even approached. But it's approach to gameplay is radically different than other MMORPGs in some respects and many gamers aren't looking for that experience. They're fundementally different in design and gameplay. It's a simple fact that fantasy games (whether electronic or otherwise) outsell science fiction games, generally. There are tons of folks who have no interest in spending hours searching an asteroid belt to mine some minerals in EO who would sit transfixed while looking for herbs while exploring a forest in WoW.
__________________ "I'd say it's more appropriate to say that videogames are RPG-ish, wouldn't you?"
or our older WizarDru's Story Hour? You Should.
I ain't linking to Piratecat's story hour...no sir, I just won't do it. He can just get the next half-million reads on his own.
Did I mention that I have a Livejournal? It's possible that I have.
It's more than polish, it certainly isn't the art (cartoony art direction in WoW was a smokescreen to reduce system requirements)...
In one public thread about Everquest2 vs WoW, one person described the art very nicely:
Everquest has more polygons, but WoW has better artists.
And I think that is fairly true. Wow looks fantastic, and on medium graphics setting my $99 AGP GeForce MX 2 has not hiccuped once. (Athlon 1.8ghz, 768mb system RAM). It just runs great all in all.
But like anygame, graphics is only part of the equation. The actual game itself rocks.
HEck if anyone wants a free 10-day trial of WoW, PM me with your email address and I will fire off the free download link and code to you (through my WoW interface).
See is believing. Playing is proof.
`Le
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BTW, just to be clear, I never called nor claimed that those who play WoW are idiots, just that idots can successfully play WoW. Big difference. And it is actually a compliment to Blizzrd on making a very easy to use interface and "flow" for a MMO.
TheLe, nice point on different gaming styles. And just like I hate RTS, others love them. Doesn't make either "group" right or wrong.
Andagor, diplomacy gets in the way of pew pew. Will drop in channel when I have a lil "downtime".
Well, that sounds an awful lot like you're saying that the game is a success for you because it really discourages casual players, is inaccessible to all but the most fanatical and that it's hostile to newcomers. Which could be a strength, I suppose, if you're not the newcomer. That certainly jibes with reviews I've seen of it.
I will not deny that the learning curve is steep. But, as much as there are "very bad" people in Eve that "want your stuff", there is also the other kind that will go above and beyond to help newbs out. You see the depths of depravity and the heights of virtue, all mixed up into one.
I agree that it all depends on what you are looking for in a game. But to the topic at hand, I would have to just say there are several ways of measuring success. Hopefully for WoW, the candle that burns twice as bright will not last half as long.
__________________ It is by will alone I set my die in motion.
It is by gaming that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by will alone I set my die in motion.
I will not deny that the learning curve is steep. But, as much as there are "very bad" people in Eve that "want your stuff", there is also the other kind that will go above and beyond to help newbs out. You see the depths of depravity and the heights of virtue, all mixed up into one. .
This is true in any mmorpg, and World of Warcraft is no exception. As much as I love WoW, there sure can be jerks in there. Pickup groups are always hit and miss, but finding a guild with good people is very easy.
If you decide to play WoW, I have one recommendation -- play on a RP server. There is very little "role playing" on a Role Playing server, but conversely there is very little l33t d00d talk, and everyone is much nicer. And you don't have to deal with the stress of getting your ass sniped for no reason (on an RP server, the opposing faction cannot attack you unless you both turn your pvp flag on. On a PVP server, pvp is always on).
~Le
__________________ My Shameless Advertisement:
(d20) Unorthodox Pirates! (d20) Unorthodox Sorcerers! (d20) The Dragonlord Monk! (d20) Unorthodox Paladins! (d20) New Ranger Spells! (d20) Sexy covers! Available now!
This is true in any mmorpg, and World of Warcraft is no exception. As much as I love WoW, there sure can be jerks in there. Pickup groups are always hit and miss, but finding a guild with good people is very easy.
If you decide to play WoW, I have one recommendation -- play on a RP server. There is very little "role playing" on a Role Playing server, but conversely there is very little l33t d00d talk, and everyone is much nicer. And you don't have to deal with the stress of getting your ass sniped for no reason (on an RP server, the opposing faction cannot attack you unless you both turn your pvp flag on. On a PVP server, pvp is always on).
~Le
I know. I'm contemplating moving my toons from Kul Tiras to a RP server for that reason. I can't take anymore chuck norris chat over the LFG channel.
Personally, I admit to being afraid of failure in a computer game--or at least being averse to it. I'm a straight-A student in real life who works alongside school; I work with disadvantaged children; I used to work for a humane society where our overarching goal was to lower our euthanasia numbers below 50% of the 8,000+ animals coming to the shelter every year.
In real life, I'll face up to the possibility of failure no problem: it's necessary to risk failure in order to accomplish anything. But in games, I'm not so interested in failure. After all, there's no way I can accomplish anything real in the game; why risk failure for a fake accomplishment?
I really appreciate games where you can autosave whenever you want, or where you face a minimal death penalty. Simulated failure doesn't interest me in my entertainment.
Daniel
__________________ Everything's better with monkeys!
-Hypersmurf
There is still a possiblity of failure in WoW. Imagine spending 3-4 hours working over a dungeon instance only to have the group splinter since 1-2 players are tried of another player screwing up and causing wipes of the party. Then you have to quit for the day and try again some other time. That is a lot better for me than losing a bunch of XP and having to spend hours of game time just trying to get back to the point I was at before. To me that isn't fun and I'm not playing a game to simulate real life.
Considering that I was late to the WoW party but have finally gotten into it, it'd be just my luck for them to soon announce a WoW 2 to come soon.
No danger of that. The first expansion for WoW is due out this fall, but it's just bumping up the level cap and adding some new areas/content. Blizzard is talking about making one expansion a year to follow up. So I don't see a WoW 2 for a minimum of 3-5 yrs.
__________________ "We are all Individuals! They chanted in unison...
No danger of that. The first expansion for WoW is due out this fall, but it's just bumping up the level cap and adding some new areas/content. Blizzard is talking about making one expansion a year to follow up. So I don't see a WoW 2 for a minimum of 3-5 yrs.
That is Correct. And if each expansion increased the cap by on 10, it will take 4 total expansions just to get the max to 100. This game isn't going anywhere anytime soon. WoW is their golden goose right now, and a "Wow-2" announcement would kill that golden goose.
It is also known that 2 additional games are in development at Blizzard, but we are all pretty sure it is *not* an MMORPG. Most of us feel the games in development are are Starcraft 2 and possibly Diablo 3 (early this year, Blizzard was seeking a developer with RTS experience).
On that note, I hope Starcraft 2 is better than Warcraft 3, which I thought stunk. And a Diablo 3? Pinch me I'm dreaming...
`The
__________________ My Shameless Advertisement:
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I'd drop WoW in a minute though if there was a Traveller style Sci-Fi RPG.
Incidentally, that's what initially attracted me to Eve.
I used to play Traveller, I still have the books! (High Guard, Striker boxed set, etc.)
__________________ It is by will alone I set my die in motion.
It is by gaming that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning.
It is by will alone I set my die in motion.
On that note, I hope Starcraft 2 is better than Warcraft 3, which I thought stunk.
I just replayed both of them in the past few months, and while I think Warcraft 3 is pretty fun, it's nowhere near the joyful experience that was Starcraft. If they can maintain the same brilliant quality, I would love love love to play Starcraft 2.
Daniel
__________________ Everything's better with monkeys!
-Hypersmurf
I need a new Conroe based rig. Anyone want to start up a fund for me?
Will drop in channel when I have a lil "downtime".
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