Software, Computers, Video Games and D&D UtilitiesGeneral discussion on computer software and hardware, PC and console games, and RPG utilities such as eTools, PC GEN, etc.
Why did WoW get so popular? Brand name and the fact, at least for the first 59 levels, it's easier than even the most basic of offline games.
Everquest came out when the market was young and undeveloped. And, whatever is popular in China rules the market. Get rid of inland Asia and WoW population shrinks to half and LineageI/II disappear. WoW still dominates the market by around 50% still.
Personally I prefer the depth of EQ style games. Which is why I currently play FFXI and only Vanguard interests me in the future.
And, whatever is popular in China rules the market.
WoW already ruled the market before it was even released in asia, though.
At least IIRC, it was only available in the U.S. and (shortly afterwards) europe at first and topped every expectations, Blizzard had (and those were pretty high already, I'm sure, they are Blizzard after all).
Bye
Thanee
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I'm bumping this thread back up in honor of my return to WoW last week (with the purchase of Wrath of the Lich King) after a 1 1/2 year hiatus from the game due to having been laid off from work at the time (I'm no longer laid off), though I'd already bought The Burning Crusade beforehand.
Has everyone's opinions here about WoW and other MMORPG's changed or stayed the same since the release of the game's two expansions? Has the game itself changed (if so, for the better or for the worse?)? Is Everquest 2 poised to make a run to recapture the MMORPG throne its franchise once occupied? Are more recently released MMORPG's such as The Lord of the Rings Online or Warhammer Online instead ready to take the mantle from WoW?
-G
__________________ - What's the difference between roast beef and pea soup? Anyone can roast beef...
- Two wrongs don't make a right, but two Wrights do make an airplane.
I'm bumping this thread back up in honor of my return to WoW last week (with the purchase of Wrath of the Lich King) after a 1 1/2 year hiatus from the game due to having been laid off from work at the time (I'm no longer laid off), though I'd already bought The Burning Crusade beforehand.
Has everyone's opinions here about WoW and other MMORPG's changed or stayed the same since the release of the game's two expansions? Has the game itself changed (if so, for the better or for the worse?)? Is Everquest 2 poised to make a run to recapture the MMORPG throne its franchise once occupied? Are more recently released MMORPG's such as The Lord of the Rings Online or Warhammer Online instead ready to take the mantle from WoW?
-G
Necro much?
Nobody is taking the mantle from WoW.
DDO could have, but the biggest innovation they had turned against them. The combat in DDO is the best, most fun I have had in an MMO, but it required them to leave the 'turn' based system behind which required many many changes from the D&D rules. Which drove away many of what would have been their largest fan base. Shame. DDO is a fun game.
LotRO probably should have done much better than it has. Not real sure why, seemed like a decent enough game when I beta'd it but I had no desire to play it live.
AoC. IMO if any game should have been able to take a chunk out of WoWs hide it was this monster. The problem is, once downloaded it looks and plays like WoW with adult graphics and while boobies are nice, a King of RPGs they do not make.
Warhammer, I mention this one only because my best friend had this silly notion that it was going to not only damage but overtake WoWs subscription numbers. (Yeah, reality has set in for him, he still likes the game.)
Of course there is always:
EVE Online as someone said upthread two years ago, it is the Anti-WoW. It takes a very different mindset to enjoy the possibility of losing very very expensive ships in interstellar conflict. Never gonna be HUGE but it's an impressivly succsesful game considering the risks involved.
Edit: WoW was very much a matter of the stars being right. It's a good game. (I wouldn't say great but that's just me.) it runs very well on non-gaming PCs, it had a pre-existing fan base from B-net. It catered to both the PvP and the no-PvP crowds. (I'm not sure if it was the first to do this, but it was one of the first.) All these things came together and WoW exploded.
At this point there is no competing with WoW. There is only competing for the number two spot in the market.
The root of intolerance against RPG players by some Christians is ignorance. The root of intolerance against Christians by some RPG players is ignorance. It's part of being human, but it's still good practice to not fall into the same behaviour one condemns.
_________________ Looking for a Cthulhu game in Houston.
Last edited by Darkwolf71; 16th December 2008 at 10:34 PM..
I am going to go out on a limb (a very skinny, dry limb), and say that I think that if there is any MMO with the potential to unseat Blizzard, it is LEGO Universe. Of course, a number of things would have to be realized for that to happen, the most basic of which is the game must be good, of course. Really, really good.
__________________ -Kaodi
Good name in man and woman, dear my lord,
Is the immediate jewel of their souls.
Who steals my purse steals trash; 'tis something, nothing;
'Twas mine, 'tis his, and has been slave to thousands;
But he that filches from me my good name
Robs me of that which not enriches him
And makes me poor indeed.
-Iago, Shakespeare's Othello, Act III. Scene III. Lines 180-186.
While shooting to dethrone the most financially successful game in the history of human civilization (and yes, that's what WoW is) is hubris in the extreme, IF there is a title in development that could do it, I think it's BioWare's Star Wars: The Old Republic..
Not saying they will do it - but if there is a WoW killer spoiling in the wings, this is it.
I know I'm vastly happier now with WoW than I have been at any point in the past.
At TBC, it took me about 8 months from launch to get into the first 10-man raid.
I was in my first 25-man raid two days after hitting 80, and my small little guild of gold farmers and relentless alt levelers cleared 3/4 of Naxx on 10-man a month after the expansion (i.e. this past weekend).
*And* my ret paladin is useful. FINALLY.
I'm much happier now.
Brad
__________________ "Your taste buds can't repel flavor of this magnitude!"
WoW was very much a matter of the stars being right. It's a good game. (I wouldn't say great but that's just me.) it runs very well on non-gaming PCs, it had a pre-existing fan base from B-net. It catered to both the PvP and the no-PvP crowds. (I'm not sure if it was the first to do this, but it was one of the first.) All these things came together and WoW exploded.
At this point there is no competing with WoW. There is only competing for the number two spot in the market.
Funny, that's what folks said about Everquest...once.
WoW was much more than being lucky at the right time. Quite the opposite, IMHO, and I've never even played the game. WoW has survived and thrived for several key reasons:
1) Continued a legacy from an established and popular franchise over which they had complete control (and had developed)
2) Provided a unique visual look that emphasized detail over style
3) Dramatically reduced the tedium of the leveling process, based on reports of my friends who have played WoW, CoX, EQ, EQ II, AC, AC II, DAoC, GW and others.
4) Offered free, regular content updates with dramatic storyline updates and considerably new material
5) Offered equally compelling PvE and PvP content
6) Has a Development team that doesn't seem to actively resent the player base
If anything, WoW should have been a second-ran after Everquest II. But as you can see here, even though EQ started with higher numbers, all EQ II did was leech players from EQ. WoW started with fewer subscribers, but ramped up FAST. By late 2005, no other game could even come close to it. And then it kept going.
There have been plenty of games that could have given it a run from for their money, but only WoW managed to grab the crown. They didn't luck into it...they worked very hard to get it.
Dark Age of Camelot, for example, offered realm vs. realm combat over two years before WoW arrived...but it never captured the popular imagination. EQ offered large-scale raids from nearly the beginning. Ultimate Online had PvP play from day one. Nothing in WoW is revolutionary...but the whole game is a well-executed package from beginning to end...and that's what's kept players in the game for years, now.
__________________ "I'd say it's more appropriate to say that videogames are RPG-ish, wouldn't you?"
or our older WizarDru's Story Hour? You Should.
I ain't linking to Piratecat's story hour...no sir, I just won't do it. He can just get the next half-million reads on his own.
Did I mention that I have a Livejournal? It's possible that I have.
As for your points, nothing you listed contradicts what I said. I have played the game. In beta, through the nightmare of a launch and for 6 or 8 months after. It's a good game. It is. I just don't think it is as good as the market indicates.
Obviously, I am in the minority in this. I am strangely OK with that.
The root of intolerance against RPG players by some Christians is ignorance. The root of intolerance against Christians by some RPG players is ignorance. It's part of being human, but it's still good practice to not fall into the same behaviour one condemns.
_________________ Looking for a Cthulhu game in Houston.
They dumbed it down and removed all the challenge or depth. Although they did keep the raids, which were the worst part of the EQ endgame.
Less snarkily, WoW attracted a lot more casual players, who recruited their casual-gamer friends. The longevity of these games depends on the social networks that arise -- the more people who have an attachment to and play with on a regular basis, the less likely you are to stop playing entirely or hop to another game.
Having played pretty much every MMO since Ultima Online to max (or close to it), WoW is probably the one I've liked the least, and even I feel the tug to return occasionally simply because of the friends I have that play it.
What sucks is that every potential MMO developer now feels that they have to achieve WoW-levels of subscribers to be considered a success, so we're starting to see the same repeition and type of formulaic crap in the MMO market that you see in other forms of mass entertainment. I suspect my days of hard games with meaningful death penalties, actual travel and exploration, etc., are long gone.
Interesting comment. Just from the perspective of 2 years later dealing with a similiar issue in the tabletop thing, where 4e feels like a much more casual gamer friendly game. Seeing the endresult of blizzard's design decision, it makes a lot of sense from a business perspective why 4e is what it is.
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Warhammer, I mention this one only because my best friend had this silly notion that it was going to not only damage but overtake WoWs subscription numbers. (Yeah, reality has set in for him, he still likes the game.)
LOL Hammer did not have a chance. Even brightened up from the source material, the setting is too dark, literally. Just looking at screenshots tells me the game is less colourful than WOW. It might seem like a non issue, but bright, cheary and cartoony "feel good" will make folks happier while playing the game. Worldwide, there are lots of people who have legitimatly miserable lives and WOW is the best 'pick me up' they have access to.
I played EQ off and on for a couple years and started playing WoW this past summer.
WoW is much more fun with much less down time and minor penalties for minor oopses.
Where with EQ, a small goof could get you killed and set you back several days of "playing" time.
Blizzard did their homework and took the good aspects of many games and cut out what wasn't liked.
Well, to be technical, the market leader form 1999-2005 was not Everquest, it was Lineage. Which quite literally did 10 times the subscribers of it's closest comeptitor in 2001. But we're not counting them in the hypothetical EQ losing it's throne to WoW idea. But EQ had major mind share in the US, and it was the market leader. Ultima Online had a plug-in audience, too, for many of the same reasons that WoW did. But it was surpassed quickly by EQ, (though it never lost nearly as dramatically as all that).
It certainly wasn't a given at the time of launch that WoW was going to become the juggernaut it now is....in fact, with such a disastrous launch, a lot of folks thought it might be a colossal failure. Obviously, that didn't happen. I'm not arguing that WoW is or isn't a good game....I don't play it, though several of my players do or used to. My point was just that it seems unfair to insinuate that the only reason WoW succeeded was by being in the right place at the right time, instead of being the product of a lot of hard work by some pretty talented people (who had a track record of quality work).
__________________ "I'd say it's more appropriate to say that videogames are RPG-ish, wouldn't you?"
or our older WizarDru's Story Hour? You Should.
I ain't linking to Piratecat's story hour...no sir, I just won't do it. He can just get the next half-million reads on his own.
Did I mention that I have a Livejournal? It's possible that I have.
My point was just that it seems unfair to insinuate that the only reason WoW succeeded was by being in the right place at the right time, instead of being the product of a lot of hard work by some pretty talented people (who had a track record of quality work).
I didn't say, nor mean to imply that the only reason WoW did (is doing) so well was luck. In fact my points about it running on mediocre systems and optional PvP are due to the very hard work, research and talent you mention. My point was that any number of things could have been done differently and had they been so, WoW might have a fraction of the customer base they do now. Thus, 'the stars were right'.
The root of intolerance against RPG players by some Christians is ignorance. The root of intolerance against Christians by some RPG players is ignorance. It's part of being human, but it's still good practice to not fall into the same behaviour one condemns.
_________________ Looking for a Cthulhu game in Houston.
Ah. My apologies for mischaracterizing your thoughts. I took that phrase to mean 'they just happened to be in the right place at the right time when the heavens were in alignment just so'. Spot on, then.
__________________ "I'd say it's more appropriate to say that videogames are RPG-ish, wouldn't you?"
or our older WizarDru's Story Hour? You Should.
I ain't linking to Piratecat's story hour...no sir, I just won't do it. He can just get the next half-million reads on his own.
Did I mention that I have a Livejournal? It's possible that I have.
Hopefully Blizzard's upcoming new MMO won't take away from WoW's numbers, especially considering that game director Jeffery Kaplan shifted over from WoW to the new game some months back.
-G
__________________ - What's the difference between roast beef and pea soup? Anyone can roast beef...
- Two wrongs don't make a right, but two Wrights do make an airplane.
Heh. I think the only thing WOW owes EQ is a list of how not to do things.
My pithy customer service example:
At one point, I was trying all the free mmo trials I could find. I tried CoH and DDO, both with no problems. I tried to download the EQ trial, and it failed to install. I deleted the install packet, redownloaded it, and tried again. Still failed to install. So, I emailed customer service with my problem.
The first thing they told me was to uninstall, and try to reinstall. I responded that, as I said in the first email, it never got to install. Oh, they say, download it again. I already tried that as well, I tell them. No, no, they say, try it again. I do so, and email them again to say it's still not working. They reply that they're sending it to tech support, and I should hear back soon.
Two days later I get an email from tech support, saying they were glad they could get the issue resolved. I reply that it wasn't resolved, and they respond by saying that the trouble ticket was finished out, and so if I still had problems, I'd have to contact customer service again. :facepalm:
__________________ ~Sky
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Hopefully Blizzard's upcoming new MMO won't take away from WoW's numbers, especially considering that game director Jeffery Kaplan shifted over from WoW to the new game some months back.
Every new high-profile MMO cannibalizes its competition...the question is whether it can sustain those numbers. EQ did this largely based on it being the first to successfully implement on a huge scale and having a sufficiently large user base as competition arrived. When something better came along (say, a game where the devs didn't actively HATE their users), they lost share. Note that Everquest, Asheron's Call and Ultima Online are still running, albeit with drastically reduced numbers.
When Dark Age of Camelot came out, people ran to it. For a while.
When City of Heroes came out, people ran to it. For a while.
When Dungeons and Dragons online came out.....well, never mind.
Frankly, I'd be more worried about Bioware's The Old Republic or Star Trek Online taking Wow customers (if I played WoW) more than Blizzard's next game, which is far off at this stage.
__________________ "I'd say it's more appropriate to say that videogames are RPG-ish, wouldn't you?"
or our older WizarDru's Story Hour? You Should.
I ain't linking to Piratecat's story hour...no sir, I just won't do it. He can just get the next half-million reads on his own.
Did I mention that I have a Livejournal? It's possible that I have.
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