@Holyman: What is your stance upon Leadership w/ ECL? For example, Leadership in d20srd, does not make mention of ECL, relying on character level -- which makes the feat pretty useless for any character with an ECL penalty, such as a drow @ +2 -- I could only attract a 5th level cohort, or what I was thinking was another drow cohort, who would be basically 3rd level -- basically would be a liability.
It says inthe DMG a character must be 6th lvl
not that they have to have 6 class lvls
isn't ECL viewed as the Equivalent Character Level so a drow of say 4th lvl ECL6 would start attracting followers which drow would do quicker than other races to establish a power base or slaves
Did I screw up my first DM ruling I think thats how it reads anyway.
Suppose my 7th level drow cleric takes the leadership feat at 6th level.
She is effectively ECL9, but only has 7 character levels.
As the feat appears to be written, she would use 7 as her character level, and therefore could only attract a cohort up to her current level -2, so that would be 5.
If that cohort was a drow, then he/she would have 3 character levels after the +2 ECL penalty.
On the other hand, if it was based upon ECL, then her cohort could have up to 7 character levels, or, if a drow, would be level 5, after the +2 ECL penalty.
You could if I knew what a DD was and thanks for all the info in the pms i have copy pasted them for reference material
HM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theroc
I think DD=Dimension Door
Correct. Sorry about that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HolyMan
If ones amove action(long jump) and the other is a standard action(cast a spell) then that is possible to make that a charge is impossible though as charge is it's own action
The Great Holyman has spoken (hey don't look behind there)
Just what I was hoping for. (And Rhun, I do have that boost - Sudden Leap (Tiger Claw 1), but I don't ready it.)
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Suppose my 7th level drow cleric takes the leadership feat at 6th level.
She is effectively ECL9, but only has 7 character levels.
As the feat appears to be written, she would use 7 as her character level, and therefore could only attract a cohort up to her current level -2, so that would be 5.
If that cohort was a drow, then he/she would have 3 character levels after the +2 ECL penalty.
On the other hand, if it was based upon ECL, then her cohort could have up to 7 character levels, or, if a drow, would be level 5, after the +2 ECL penalty.
Wouldn't it be wise to use just one way of describing it, say ECL for all accpects.
Why would you use charcter lvl to describe when you get the feat and then ECL as to what lvl cohort you can have.
you are effectively a character of lvl 9 so as I read leadership thats the stat you would use and a cohort of drow descent would be ECL7 again thats your "character level" -2 or am I reading something wrong about ECL maybe I should look that up?
This line is included in the entries of creatures suitable for use as player characters or as cohorts (usually creatures with Intelligence scores of at least 3 and possessing opposable thumbs). Add this number to the creature’s total Hit Dice, including class levels, to get the creature’s effective character level (ECL). A character’s ECL affects the experience the character earns, the amount of experience the character must have before gaining a new level, and the character’s starting equipment.
I'd say RAW ECL only affects the things it explicitly calls out it affecting. Otherwise the character uses his character level the way he does for feat and ability score increase calculations.
Typically, character level refers to levels you've actually taken in classes. Otherwise, you'd use your ECL when figuring feats, HP, skills, etc. However, 'the most important rule' is that you can house rule anything you wish. If you're worried about the difficulty of the adventure, you could houserule that cohort levels are based on ECL rather than on CL. Sounds like this way makes more sense to you anyway . . .
Bedford, doesn't the armor need some sort of a special feature to work with your change of size and body shape when you go into the large hybrid and animal form?
wish they never invented ECL... but heres an example of something i was thinking on
You have a Drow Priestess lvl 4(ECL 6), that I could see having a bodyguard say a Drow Fighter lvl 2(ECL4) looking at it this way all the numbers match but--
A lvl 4 priest couldn't get leadership due to not having a feat she would need to be lvl6 (ECL8) then take the feat she gets and make it Leadership
the need for a feat chumps the ECL in this way
But was looking over DMG after Voadam's post of lvl adjustment from MM
It has differences for monsters with one HD and those with multiple
It says that a monster with Hit Dice 1 or less, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its class levels, Hit Die, and level adjustment together when referring to table 3-2
Playing it this way makes a little sense A 1st lvl drow rogue is ECL 4 has all the drow abilities to make up the +2 LA, 1d6(Rogue)1st lvl, and 1d8 HD(humaniod)
And would have 6,000xp needing 10,000 for lvl five.
But in the MM it says a drow with PC class lvls adds +1 to it's CR why is that and not +2??
Ugh...that's too much math for this early in the morning. Need coffee.
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wish they never invented ECL... but heres an example of something i was thinking on
You have a Drow Priestess lvl 4(ECL 6), that I could see having a bodyguard say a Drow Fighter lvl 2(ECL4) looking at it this way all the numbers match but--
A lvl 4 priest couldn't get leadership due to not having a feat she would need to be lvl6 (ECL8) then take the feat she gets and make it Leadership
the need for a feat chumps the ECL in this way
But was looking over DMG after Voadam's post of lvl adjustment from MM
It has differences for monsters with one HD and those with multiple
It says that a monster with Hit Dice 1 or less, a level adjustment, and class levels adds its class levels, Hit Die, and level adjustment together when referring to table 3-2
Playing it this way makes a little sense A 1st lvl drow rogue is ECL 4 has all the drow abilities to make up the +2 LA, 1d6(Rogue)1st lvl, and 1d8 HD(humaniod)
And would have 6,000xp needing 10,000 for lvl five.
But in the MM it says a drow with PC class lvls adds +1 to it's CR why is that and not +2??
HM <---- is confused
Allow me to attempt an explanation... (This is from what I see as the RAW standpoint. I'm not perfect, so I could miss something...)
Drow only have a +2 Level Adjustment, with no racial Hit Dice, so their ECL is only +2, rather than +3. (So the 1st-level Drow Rogue would be ECL 3, not 4. No HD to add in.)
Leadership makes no mention of ECL for determining a Leadership score, only character level. Therefore, you should only consider the character level when trying to figure what level a cohort is. And since we are treating LA as extra levels in this game, if the cohort has LA, he/she/it should be reduced in level by an equal amount.
So S@squ@tach's Drow Cleric 7 (with score of 7 + CHA mod) would be able to attract a 5th-level Cohort. If the cohort is to be Drow, then it should be level 3. Or you let him figure LA as character levels (for this game only, I would suggest... it gets ridiculous otherwise). Or you can try using LA as it was written (ugh)... And the final option would be to disallow Leadership. Option 2 would be the most powerful, and maybe useful for all of us, seeing as this is likely to be a rather lethal game.
I hope this was helpful and didn't just confuse people more....
(And CR has nothing to do with it... That's only for determining their toughness as monsters, not PCs. Though the explanation is the Drow stat bonuses and special abilities make them tougher (which is why a Drow Warrior 1 is CR 1, not 1/2).)
I'm not set on using leadership, as I think it breaks when it involves LA races.
Using my drow priestess as an example, it makes more logical sense that a 7th level cleric would have a drow cohort of 5th level, not 3rd level. A 7th level drow character is supposed to be the same (in power) as a 9th level pc of a LA+0 race. (which is the whole point of the LA system.)
As a human/dwarf/gnome/halfling/half-elf cleric of 9th level would have a cohort of 7th level.
I'm not set on using leadership, as I think it breaks when it involves LA races.
Using my drow priestess as an example, it makes more logical sense that a 7th level cleric would have a drow cohort of 5th level, not 3rd level. A 7th level drow character is supposed to be the same (in power) as a 9th level pc of a LA+0 race. (which is the whole point of the LA system.)
As a human/dwarf/gnome/halfling/half-elf cleric of 9th level would have a cohort of 7th level.
Yeah, I think it would make more sense if the cohort was 5th level. I was just saying what the RAW seems to be (it is a bit fuzzy, though). One more reason I consider Leadership to be a bit of a headache...
Of course, it's all up to HolyMan's interpretation, though, not mine. I was just tossing out an explanation. Either way it goes, we'll be glad to have you in the party S@squ@tch!
I'm not set on using leadership, as I think it breaks when it involves LA races.
Using my drow priestess as an example, it makes more logical sense that a 7th level cleric would have a drow cohort of 5th level, not 3rd level. A 7th level drow character is supposed to be the same (in power) as a 9th level pc of a LA+0 race. (which is the whole point of the LA system.)
As a human/dwarf/gnome/halfling/half-elf cleric of 9th level would have a cohort of 7th level.
Two issues I see, the leadership character's level and the cohorts level.
As a 7th level character you get a 5th level cohort. Drow have a +2 LA that applies when considering their level as a cohort.
You can choose an evil LA +0 cohort of 5th level or a 3rd level +2 LA cohort. For balance it doesn't matter what race your cohort is, just that the choices balance out in terms of power using LA as a balancer.
I think you are arguing that for leadership you should use ECL instead of character level and be treated as CL 9 and get a cohort of 7th level which would be a level 5 drow, same as any other level 9 character could get.
I think by RAW you count as character level and not ECL for your leadership, the same way you would for any other feat power such as the DC and number of uses of stunning fist.
I think this is considered part of the balancing of the LA race powers you get (SR, better stats, etc.). An LA character generally does worse than an LA 0 character on level based powers unless their racial advantages bump them up in that area.
From that perspective it makes sense for a lower level drow to have a weaker cohort than a higher level elf of the same ECL.
Drow only have a +2 Level Adjustment, with no racial Hit Dice, so their ECL is only +2, rather than +3. (So the 1st-level Drow Rogue would be ECL 3, not 4. No HD to add in.)
Thank you for that I wasn't sure if it was all 1 HD or just drow that had a special rule
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonwriter
Leadership makes no mention of ECL for determining a Leadership score, only character level. Therefore, you should only consider the character level when trying to figure what level a cohort is. And since we are treating LA as extra levels in this game, if the cohort has LA, he/she/it should be reduced in level by an equal amount.
Agreed and for fluff you wouldn't be seeing a drow have a cohort to close in power to themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragonwriter
So S@squ@tach's Drow Cleric 7 (with score of 7 + CHA mod) would be able to attract a 5th-level Cohort. If the cohort is to be Drow, then it should be level 3. Or you let him figure LA as character levels (for this game only, I would suggest... it gets ridiculous otherwise). Or you can try using LA as it was written (ugh)... And the final option would be to disallow Leadership. Option 2 would be the most powerful, and maybe useful for all of us, seeing as this is likely to be a rather lethal game.
If I went option #2 It would help as I see a group of 4 characters being at a disavantage should players become swarmed/outnumbered.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s@squ@tch
as I think it (leadership) breaks when it involves LA races.
A truer statement has never been spoken.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s@squ@tch
As a human/dwarf/gnome/halfling/half-elf cleric of 9th level would have a cohort of 7th level.
But if said cohort were a drow they would only be 5th lvl.
Quote:
Originally Posted by s@squ@tch
BTW, what world/pantheon is this set in, or is it homebrew? Is this a world where portals are present?
Everyone should decide this as a different group may play in a different world than another.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voadam
For balance it doesn't matter what race your cohort is, just that the choices balance out in terms of power using LA as a balancer.
True I would like to run it this way but use dragonwriter's suggestion that we base things on ECLs to get a little tougher cohorts (a houserule per say)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voadam
I think by RAW you count as character level and not ECL for your leadership, the same way you would for any other feat power such as the DC and number of uses of stunning fist.
I think this is considered part of the balancing of the LA race powers you get (SR, better stats, etc.). An LA character generally does worse than an LA 0 character on level based powers unless their racial advantages bump them up in that area.
From that perspective it makes sense for a lower level drow to have a weaker cohort than a higher level elf of the same ECL.
?????????? So high elf lvl 8 = cohort lvl6, Drow lvl 6 = cohort lvl4 ???????? That is the way it is written we will try the other way and if the cohorts become to powerful than can up an few EL's
New way high elf lvl 8 = cohort lvl6, Drow lvl6(ECL8) cohort = lvl6
Scratch that it looks wrong will use above (character lvl) not ECL's sorry guys.
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Re: game setting -- for creating my cleric, it becomes an issue with regards to deities and domains available.
I'm not too sold on any of the drow pantheon, as all are CE (for good reasons) except for Elistraee, and I don't envision my PC being the surface dwelling tree hugger. I don't have any real options to be a spontaneous healer/undead turner, which makes sad drow sad.
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