WotBS meets IH

[DBlue]

Ok, I had a long post typed out, but the boards here ate it.

Basically, I am considering picking up War of the Burning Sky, but my preferred system is Iron Heroes, which contains little magic, and no safe magic. Reading through the campaign guides, magic seems to be an integral part of the world.

I can make the inquisitors work. They actually make a great deal more sense in a world where magic is dangerous. The magic college might require a slight reflavoring.

I'm not too concerned with the magic items of the npcs, or that their spellcasters would be on a slightly different system. It's easy enough to throw a mishap table at them and have the magic items personally attuned or tattoos or some other such. I can do that sort of conversion on the fly.

What roadblocks might I run into? Are the PCs expected to have access to spells at any point during the adventure path? Are they expected to do so often? (Throwing one macguffin in to replace a spell once feels quite different than needing a different macguffin every session.) How much will I need to reflavor the world? How much conversion work am I looking at here?

Edit: In the most basic form I can think of, how much will the PCs be hurting if they do not have access to Vancian magic or spells from the core books? How out of place will they be if they do not have that?

[Morrus]

Yikes, that's quite a question! I presume it's the 3.5 version you'd be picking up (that being a closer match)?

I've never read Iron Heroes (I assume that's what you mean by IH?), so I really don't know enough about it to know how well it would work. We don't tend to require that the PCs have a particular spell or anything, though (a standard 3.5 party doesn't have to have a wizard or sorcerer, after all!)

I'm afraid I can't be much more help than that, though. With luck, someone who has done this will see your thread and relate their experiences.

[Selganor]

I was running Iron Heroes for a while before I started WotBS (3.5) and decided against using IH with it.

While the special abilities of the IH classes can make up for the lack of magic items/spells from the PCs, WotBS is a REALLY magical setting.

Almost everyone important (and certainly all of the most important NPCs) either can cast spells or use other magics.
This (at least for me) is in harsh dissonance to the "PCs don't usually use magic" pretext that builds IH.

If you are happy with your pcs using lots of magic items (potions and the like) and regular contact with magic users go for it.

[Marius Delphus]

Trying to avoid spoilers, there's certainly an Iron Heroes-style metaplot here: there's evil magic afoot and the fate of the world depends on the muscle and grit of the heroes and their erstwhile, gutsy allies. I think you've already identified the two most important things to consider are magic-using NPCs (including the fact that there's a college full of 'em that is important in the saga) and magic gear carried by NPCs (practically all the NPCs above 5th level, and many below that level, are carrying magical gear).

I don't think there's any serious problem with making sure all the magic is in the hands of the bad guys, as IH is supposedly on roughly at the same power curve, level for level, as 3.5 D&D. Depending on how much work you want to do, though, it seems to me that many of the NPCs could be "reskinned" so that they don't act like they're using magic and/or carrying magical gear. (Others might have to be rewritten or replaced, depending on how common you think enemy spellcasters ought to be.)

There are going to be some storytelling hurdles, though: during the course of the campaign, things that are very obviously magical happen, and frequently. For example, one major plot point late in the campaign involves impressively powerful teleportation magic falling into the heroes' hands. Throughout the campaign, the heroes visit many places influenced by magic and some built by magic.

I don't recall a time when the heroes absolutely, positively need to use magic (certainly nothing that can't be accomplished if you provide the heroes something along the lines of a purpose-built ritual scroll or other situation-specific one-use wish-widget -- if you do need to come up with any of these, I really don't think there would be more than two or three). That said, during the campaign the heroes are surrounded by magic. So that's the main thing to be aware of, IMHO. I certainly think an IH reskinning/conversion is achievable, and with not much more than a bunch of handwaving and a little bit of more detailed tinkering: the prevalence of magic being the main issue, making sure your advance prep is solid, makes sense, and strikes the tone you want should be all you need to do. Also it sounds like a lot of fun.

HTH. HAND.

[RangerWickett]

When you say magic, do you mean casting spells, or are monsters and such out too? In 3.5, Adventure 1 has wyverns and a dragon flying overhead, and a few undead. Adventure 2 is very magical, in that the PCs travel through a perpetually burning forest in order to shake pursuit of the villains, who respond by sending a devil to track them. There are fey in the forest, and other magical beings, and it's assumed that the PCs use specialized potions to protect from the heat. Adventure 3 has the PCs reaching a refugee city, where all the magic users who have managed to flee the inquisitors gather. There's a big ritual that the villains perform:

Spoiler:

They conjure a hurricane to destroy the city, and the PCs have to disrupt the ritual before the storm reaches full strength.

So, y'know, there is a lot of magical stuff going on, but I suppose you could run it a bit more like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser style sword & sorcery, where the world has magic, but it's always considered special. For instance, people don't assume there's healing magic or divination or anything, but I think it's believable that if the world has magic of any sort, it'll get trotted out when there's a war on. I admit, it's a stretch, but at least the main villain is a powerful mage. Nothing's more classic S&S than non-magic-using heroes screwing with mages.

[DBlue]

Yes, the 3.x version. Thanks to those who replied!

Originally Posted by Selganor

I was running Iron Heroes for a while before I started WotBS (3.5) and decided against using IH with it.

While the special abilities of the IH classes can make up for the lack of magic items/spells from the PCs, WotBS is a REALLY magical setting.

Almost everyone important (and certainly all of the most important NPCs) either can cast spells or use other magics.
This (at least for me) is in harsh dissonance to the "PCs don't usually use magic" pretext that builds IH.

If you are happy with your pcs using lots of magic items (potions and the like) and regular contact with magic users go for it.

While I don't particularly want my pcs using magic items(at least without nasty side effects), I don't mind the rest. The heavy magic isn't quite what I was looking for, but I can reskin and reflavor a lot of it.

Originally Posted by Marius Delphus

Trying to avoid spoilers, there's certainly an Iron Heroes-style metaplot here: there's evil magic afoot and the fate of the world depends on the muscle and grit of the heroes and their erstwhile, gutsy allies. I think you've already identified the two most important things to consider are magic-using NPCs (including the fact that there's a college full of 'em that is important in the saga) and magic gear carried by NPCs (practically all the NPCs above 5th level, and many below that level, are carrying magical gear).

The metaplot certainly fits within an Iron Heroes world. I'll have to look at the college more carefully, but I think it'll be my first target of detail work.

Originally Posted by Marius Delphus

I don't think there's any serious problem with making sure all the magic is in the hands of the bad guys, as IH is supposedly on roughly at the same power curve, level for level, as 3.5 D&D. Depending on how much work you want to do, though, it seems to me that many of the NPCs could be "reskinned" so that they don't act like they're using magic and/or carrying magical gear. (Others might have to be rewritten or replaced, depending on how common you think enemy spellcasters ought to be.)

Yeah, I have every intention of reskinning all non obvious magic into not magic. That +3 sword becomes a MW item, and the npc gets an unnamed bonus to attack rolls and damage. In my experience, about 80% of magic items are reskinnable.

Originally Posted by Marius Delphus

There are going to be some storytelling hurdles, though: during the course of the campaign, things that are very obviously magical happen, and frequently. For example, one major plot point late in the campaign involves impressively powerful teleportation magic falling into the heroes' hands. Throughout the campaign, the heroes visit many places influenced by magic and some built by magic.

This is perhaps going to be the largest hurdle, but it should be surmountable with the right tone.

Originally Posted by RangerWickett

When you say magic, do you mean casting spells, or are monsters and such out too? In 3.5, Adventure 1 has wyverns and a dragon flying overhead, and a few undead. Adventure 2 is very magical, in that the PCs travel through a perpetually burning forest in order to shake pursuit of the villains, who respond by sending a devil to track them. There are fey in the forest, and other magical beings, and it's assumed that the PCs use specialized potions to protect from the heat. Adventure 3 has the PCs reaching a refugee city, where all the magic users who have managed to flee the inquisitors gather. There's a big ritual that the villains perform: So, y'know, there is a lot of magical stuff going on, but I suppose you could run it a bit more like Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser style sword & sorcery, where the world has magic, but it's always considered special. For instance, people don't assume there's healing magic or divination or anything, but I think it's believable that if the world has magic of any sort, it'll get trotted out when there's a war on. I admit, it's a stretch, but at least the main villain is a powerful mage. Nothing's more classic S&S than non-magic-using heroes screwing with mages.

Mostly casting spells. Don't get me wrong. I like monsters, dragons, undead, etc. This would definitely be Lieber over Howard. I might have to make the Inquisitors be after more than magic users. The perpetually burning forest is cool and appropriate. The PCs don't get access to safe magic, but this makes magic more a part of the "other," which in turn makes it fit better in some spots in the world. The use of rituals works well with this pattern.

Tentative list:
-Rework Magic College.
-Do a slight retooling of the Inquisitors. Make them target Magic and X, whatever X may be.
-If magic comes up and feels out of place, try to reskin it.
-If it still comes up, and still feels out of place, add a little bit of an edge, via mishap tables, negative effects, etc. (For example, those specialized potions are mildly addictive, and while under the influence, you need to stay above a certain temperature, or you might freeze to death.)

Overall, the conversion sounds a bit rougher than I was hoping for, but quite doable. I'll go ahead and grab it. Thanks guys!

[amethal]

This makes me want to run WotBS all over again, this time using Iron Heroes.

I love the idea of some people looking on the Inquisitors as heroes, sniffing out the dangerous arcanists and taking them into protective custody before they can do any harm to innocent civilians. This could give rise to a genuine debate in Gate Pass over whether or not to let the Inquisitors into the city.

If it was me, I'd play up the idea that some people are spontaneously gaining the ability to cast spells (thanks to trillith possession) and this is causing a great deal of panic.

There's a great deal of unease, in Seaquen and elsewhere, about the fact that the Lyceum is offering a safe haven for these dangerous witches and warlocks.

Maybe once the 4th edition version is finished you could look at publishing an Iron Heroes version!