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Old 05-31-2012, 12:49 AM   Top  -  End  -  #1
eftexar
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Default The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Witch (3.5)

Abilities: Strength, dexterity, and constitution are the most important as you will likely focus on melee. Wisdom sets the saves for your potions and a couple of other abilities, as does charisma. Intelligence helps with skills as usual.

Organization: Though witches are usually loners, occasionally covens of witches will form to meet some goal. Still these covens often fall apart due to either the chaotic or selfish nature of the witches involved.

Alignment: Witches may be of any alignment, though both the lawful and good alignments are incredibly rare. Witches tend towards chaos and evil, often subverting nature to their wiles.

Religion: Witches don't often worship deities, instead worshiping nature itself. Those that do often worship chaotic deities.

Background: Witches come from all walks of life and anyone can find themselves delving into witchcraft. Some are born with the gift (or curse) and others learn it through years of study. All of them, however, can tie the source of their power to some event or some trinket that awakened their power, which is often associated with the types of magic eventually learn.

Races: Humans are by far the most common witches, though nobody really knows why. Elven witches aren't unheard of and are the most likely to lean towards good, while orc's make some of the most vile witches you will ever see.

Other Classes: Not even good aligned witches get along with paladins and clerics, for they have been the subject of the stake too many times. They tend to get along with rogues, barbarians, and rangers though.

Role: Witches can fight in melee, using their wildshape ability for a bit of extra muscle and their potions for some alchemical backup. They can also function as trackers and spies.

Class Features

Hit Die: d6

Starting Gold: As Rogue

Skills: Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Jump (Str), Knowledge (dungeoneering, geography, history, and nature) (Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Spot (Wis), Survival (Wis), Swim (Str), and Use Rope (Dex).

Skill Points: 4 + Int mod (x 4 at first level)

Level   Base Attack Bonus   Wildshape Attack Bonus   Fort Save   Refx Save   Will Save   Special   Primary Circle   Secondary Circle   Magemark Invocations 
1st +0 +0 +2 +0 +2 Familiar, Witchcraft, Ancient Lore, Mage Mark 2 (1) 1 (1) 1 (1)
2nd +1 +1 +3 +0 +3 Wild Empathy 3 (1) 2 (1) 1 (1)
3rd +1 +2 +3 +1 +3 Woodland Stride 3 (1) 2 (1) 2 (2)
4th +2 +3 +4 +1 +4 Bonus Feat 4 (2) 2 (1) 2 (2)
5th +2 +3 +4 +1 +4 Wildshape 4 (2) 3 (2) 2 (2)
6th +3 +4 +5 +2 +5 Hex (2 targets) 5 (3) 3 (2) 3 (3)
7th +3 +5 +5 +2 +5 Purity 5 (3) 3 (2) 3 (3)
8th +4 +6/+1 +6 +2 +6 Bonus Feat 6 (4) 3 (2) 3 (3)
9th +4 +6/+1 +6 +3 +6 Improved Wildshape 6 (4) 4 (2) 4 (4)
10th +5 +7/+2 +7 +3 +7 Hex (3 targets) 7 (4) 4 (2) 4 (4)
11th +5 +8/+3 +7 +3 +7 A Thousand Faces 7 (4) 4 (2) 4 (4)
12th +6/+1 +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Bonus Feat 8 (5) 5 (3) 5 (5)
13th +6/+1 +9/+4 +8 +4 +8 Swarmshape 8 (5) 5 (3) 5 (5)
14th +7/+2 +10/+5 +9 +4 +9 Hex (4 targets) 9 (5) 5 (3) 5 (5)
15th +7/+2 +11/+6/+1 +9 +5 +9 Alien Mind 9 (5) 5 (3) 6 (6)
16th +8/+3 +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Bonus Feat 10 (6) 6 (3) 6 (6)
17th +8/+3 +12/+7/+2 +10 +5 +10 Improved Wildshape 10 (6) 6 (3) 6 (6)
18th +9/+4 +13/+8/+3 +11 +6 +11 Hex (5 targets) 11 (6) 6 (3) 6 (6)
19th +9/+4 +14/+9/+4 +11 +6 +11 Timeless 11 (6) 7 (4) 6 (6)
20th +10/+5 +15/+10/+5 +12 +6 +12 Transcendence 12 (6) 7 (4) 6 (6)

Weapons and Armor Proficiencies: The witch is proficient with simple weapons and light armor, but not with shields.

Class Abilities
Spoiler


Design Notes:
Spoiler


ACFs
Spoiler


Feats
Spoiler
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:42 AM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

I like the concept...not quite sure on the power level though. It has features of a level that would certainly qualify it as Tier 3, but the restrictions and weaknesses seem to prevent them from really working together as well as they would on similar classes.

Wild Shape is generally considered a Tier 3 feature on its own merits, but the witch chassis is substantially worse than that of a druid or wild shape ranger. The ranger has a full BAB to back it up. The druid has buffs. Both have more combat-capable pets (although in the ranger's case, if only just) and better hit points and saves.

Sixth level spells, likewise, are a good hallmark of Tier 3, but the process of only being able to put them into potions, and the starkly limited number of spells known, make the witch, in my opinion, a weaker caster than even the ranger. You're basically looking at the worst features of both a prepared caster and a spontaneous caster, with a sharply curtailed spells known and spells/day selection and painfully slow recovery. The witch also can't get much use out of some of the really strong areas of the druid spell list - battlefield control and summons.

The invocations and other features provide some defense and utility (and, I notice, a fairly nice selection of immunities). And the hex can be useful against single foes and probably goes nicely with the invocations...so I'm not sure. In actual play, it may all come together. My instinct is that it's closer to Tier 4 than Tier 3, but if I'm underestimating the invocations, hex, or wild shape at all, it might land solidly in Tier 3 territory.

I would, however, get rid of the 2d4+1 days potion duration. The spells-as-potions is going to require enough bookkeeping as it is, I think adding the random factor would just be a hassle. The transcendence is also a bit weird in that it boosts Charisma, which the class doesn't seem to use aside from Wild Empathy (and maybe invocations?)
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Old 05-31-2012, 01:43 PM   Top  -  End  -  #3
eftexar
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

The 2d4 + 1 days thing was supposed to limit people from having infinite potions (you know because of the no xp cost thing). But if it really is tier 4 then that might not be necessary. What if I did something like potions per day (it still keeps the witchy feeling and limits larger area spells, but I can remove gold costs and the random day limit)?
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Old 05-31-2012, 03:07 PM   Top  -  End  -  #4
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Yeah, a non-randomized per day was what I meant.

The other way you could do it, is to say the potions expire after one day, but the witch can use magic to preserve a limited number of them indefinitely. This keeps the player from basically having to keep brewing the same potion over and over because they haven't used it yet.
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Old 05-31-2012, 05:21 PM   Top  -  End  -  #5
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Shamless self-plug: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...php?p=9176244#

Use it for parts if you like.
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Old 06-01-2012, 06:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #6
eftexar
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Alright Quellian,

Sorry I should have clarified when I said potions per day. I understood what you meant, but was thinking more along the lines of an actual spells per day chart like spellcasting classes and not a flat total.

I have changed potion limits (see familiar) and set up potions to expire when new potions are created. So as long as no new potions are made the old ones don't expire. They also no longer have gold cost (effectively becoming her spells for the day).

Thanks Jarrick, I'll take a look and see if I can cannibalize anything.
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Old 06-02-2012, 01:52 AM   Top  -  End  -  #7
eftexar
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

The class has had a complete rehaul from before. The witch now has access to her magic through circles and no longer has the nature's caress ability.

Though the class has as many spells per day as a bard, it doesn't have as many spells and not all of them can be cast as spells. The invocations haven't really changed beyond having their own column on the chart they make up for that. I think it ends up about the same. Alongside that the witch still has all of the neat abilities - immunities, the hex ability, and wildshape - that it did before. Hopefully it falls more squarely into tier 3 now.

You can see the original witch, before the changes, here:
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Old 06-02-2012, 07:12 AM   Top  -  End  -  #8
nonsi
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

My friend, this is one remarkable homebrew.
It practically envelopes all folklore Witches into one nice gift wrap.
In terms of theme, you couldn't do better.
I also like the fact that this class always has something to do and is never "shooting blanks".

Had it had a bit more kick, it would be tier-3, but it's indeed rather weak (and it doesn't even have UMD for partial compensation).

I'd advise the following changes:
1. Remove the penalties when Mage Mark is not exposed. Being denied your invocations is harsh enough. This has no fluff-wise value and is unfair crunch-wise.
2. Make primary circle spells available for casting. This will make the Witch count for something as a spellcaster. Also, don't forget that at the higher levels, the action economy is a killer. By then, one really wouln't wanna manage themselves with potions.
3. I'd even go as far as giving the Witch bonus feats at levels 4/8/12/16, selectable from your proposed feats, since this class is not the best at anything.

These proposed changes will not push your Witch beyong tier-3 and you'll have yourself one epic homebrew.
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Old 06-02-2012, 10:02 AM   Top  -  End  -  #9
eftexar
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Thanks for the praise, nonsi. It had occurred to me that all witches usually had two types of magic and that they always had wildshape in the stories (plus choices!). And yeah the shooting blanks issue has always been a problem I've had with spellcasters. I'm fine with growing weaker because of badly managed resources, but I should never be useless.

But yeah I guess I went overboard with the magemark penalties. I just wanted to make sure that it made people want to display it, instead of vice versa. Fixed that.

Bonus feats have been added with lots of choices, including my hex feats and one of my personal favorites (reserve feats).

I'm still not sure a I want to allow primary casting as actual casting. It's not so much power I'm worried about as the flavor. I just like the general witchy feeling of brewing. Besides that though they I can't justify non-magical spells, which, as it is here, leaves them something to do when magic fails.

Also the white white circle no longer allows necromancy spells. I had briefly forgotten that granting the cleric list did that and that just doesn't work.
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Old 06-02-2012, 03:15 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
Quellian-dyrae
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

I'd definitely say you hit a solid Tier 3 at this stage. I don't think I read Swarmshape fully the first time through, since I missed that it let you become multiple creatures (I was thinking it just let you become a swarm). While I wouldn't say such an ability is overpowered on its own merits, I can see some possibility to exploit it, either for protection by keeping one swarm member out of combat so you always have a few hit points left, or for action economy abuse. I'm not certain it would be a problem, but it's something to think about.

The only possible issue I notice with the Hex feats is Omen, since it can force an auto-fail on a saving throw. Even that isn't really a huge problem, though, since they need to fail a save to get hexed anyway.

I think giving up Wild Shape is probably a sufficient detriment for getting an animal companion. Slowing down spell progression as well makes it, in my opinion, a strictly inferior option.

I'd also say that counting first level spells as second for spells/day isn't necessary.

Anyway, I think those are the only other suggestions I have. Good job on the class!
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Old 06-02-2012, 03:39 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
nonsi
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

"First level spells count as second level spells for purposes of counting towards this tally."
What this basically means is that you're forcing neglect of 1st level spells quite rapidly, because they will not be worth while resource-wise.
I see no motivation for this constraint, but just out of curiosity, what brought that on?

Coming back to the primary circle...
If a character can brew - they'll brew. Granting spells will not prevent that, especially since the brews are non-magical, meaning they get to function in A-M, which is a huge bonus. If you only get that by brewing, then brewing's gonna be a part of any witch well into the epic stages.

As for your balance worries - there shouldn't be any.
I could find absolutely no "Nuke" in your Witch's arsenal, so it's never gonna make tier-2.

As for the feats you've presented... putting everything together, I can honestly say that this is the 1st homebrew class that rivals my Warrior in the character-build customization department.
One thing I would change though. Spell of the Third Circle shouldn't be limited to a single daily use. If one puts a feat to it - granted there are more spells to this class than feats and that selecting other feats from your list offers so much - such a toll merits that the spell should just be added to the witch's repertoire.

One thing I did notice to be missing. Voodoo Doll.
Since you've been doing such a magnificent job so far, I'll leave it entirely in your capable hands.
Another thing I don't see, is a set of viable feats for good witches. For instance, a good witch riding a unicorn familiar could be nice and thematically sound.
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Old 06-02-2012, 03:51 PM   Top  -  End  -  #12
nonsi
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Another thought that came to mind.
In folklore, witches are almost if not always physically incapable of decent martial combat in human form.
Although it's unorthodox (but hey, homebrewing isn't exactly about being orthodox), except for the Animal Companion Witch, it seems very appropriate to me that a witch in human(oid) form should have poor BAB and only while Wild-Shaped does she gain med-BAB.

Just a thought, but it's more than thematically sound and it will encourage players to work with their heads more than with the dice.
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Old 06-02-2012, 04:06 PM   Top  -  End  -  #13
Cipherthe3vil
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

A Voodoo Doll. Yes.

Even if this was Tier 4 I'd still play it if only it could include a Voodoo Doll. That'd be the pushing awesome factor.

I quite like this class. And if I'm to play a more Divine-Nature witch in a lower power setting I'd go for this if I was feeling like being more fluffy, less punchy, then my own Witch. My Witch couldn't easily fit into low power games.
This however would be the only class Tier three or less I'd consider playing outside of Gestalt.
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Old 06-02-2012, 04:29 PM   Top  -  End  -  #14
nonsi
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

2 spells to inspire you that I used for my Witch class (turn them into feats/ACFs/whatever..... I'll leave it up to you):

================================================== =========

Massmorph Transmutation
. . . . . ("You are all pigs!")
Level: Witch 6
Targets: 1 creature / level, no two of which can be more than 30ft apart.
This spell polymorphs multiple creatures at once.
The targets must all be transformed into the same sort of creature, so it is possible to massmorph a group into pigs, cows or even ogres (assuming medium sized creatures), but it’s impossible to turm some into pigs and others into goats.
If one of the creatures cannot assume the desired form, it is unaffected. The targets save against the spell’s effect individually, and one’s success or failure has no affect on the others.


Eternal Sleep Enchantment
. . . . . (no brainer: sleeping beauty)
Level: Witch 6
Components: V, S
Casting Time: Standard action
Range: medium (100ft + 20ft / level)
Target: 1 creature
Duration: Permanent (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates
Spell Resistance: Yes
One creature you indicate falls into a deep, coma-like sleep, from which it cannot wake up by any means short of Wish or Miracle.
The creature’s life functions are slowed and maintained by the spell so it can remain asleep indefinitely, without the need to eat or drink (but it must breathe), as long as no physical harm comes to it.
The spell affects any creature that can be rendered comatose, including creatures that usually don’t sleep (such as elves).
When the spell is cast, you must designate and speak aloud one condition that will awaken the creature.
The condition could be anything that comes to mind, but it must be accomplishable in some way by mortal means (i.e. without magical powers) and not directly harmful to the creature. The witch doesn't have to disclose this information, but it's obtainable via Analyze Dweomer, Legend Lore or Vision.
If the condition is fulfilled, the spell ends immediately.

================================================== =========
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Old 06-02-2012, 04:45 PM   Top  -  End  -  #15
nonsi
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

One last thing.

I'd consider giving a 20th level witch access to 7th level spells in her primary circle - just because I could easily imagine a witch casting control weather / creeping doom / insanity / irresistible dance / project image / spell turning / vision
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Old 06-02-2012, 08:55 PM   Top  -  End  -  #16
eftexar
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Quellian,

Good I'm definitely happy that I hit the tier 3 mark. I think tier 3 is actually fairly hard to hit, with the tendencey to veer off into tier 4 or tier 2 by accident.

I'm not so worried about leaving one swarm member in a corner to survive. That would actually be a pretty smart use, though I think limiting the distances the members are away from one another might be a good idea. As far as action abuse, I think I'm going to force a limited number of actions (two rounds worth actions should be fair with the other limitations of wildshape right?).

I'm not so worried about omen. I actually thought about the same thing as you. I think the fact a save needs to be made against the original hex effect makes this ok.

I can returned the spellcasting to normal for the ACF. You're probably right on that.

The first level spells being counted as second was more to deal with the problem of granting a massive number of spells each day. I don't think I want to change it. I was just brooding over the low number of starting spells. I guess a crazy number of potions doesn't hurt if they are all weak anyways, but I still think I want the limitation on spells. Besides that I am debating whether I should double the number of potions make-able each day or not.

Thanks.


Nonsi,

As I just said to quellian the first level spells as second level spells is because I want to prevent a massive spells per day. It's really just a numbers thing. So some spells might become obsolete, but if you pick up some of the neater stuff they won't.

Sorry about being obsessed about the whole tier 3 thing, but I try to always hit that straight on the spot. You're right though, no nukes to be seen.

I actually haven't looked at your warrior. Is it in your rewrite and is there an online version I can look at? Anyway I will loosen the restrictions on third circle spells from that feat.

Voodoo doll... I think that might be a bit much to add in. I was thinking one of the three following possibilities for it: a string of voodoo feats, a prestige class, or another ACF. I'm leaning towards the former two, though I get leary about prestige classes unless they are absolutely necessary. I just feal feats and ACFs would draw away from the customization of other effects too much.

As far as good witch stuff, I'll have to think of some things. I had appraoched this as the witch always having a slightly dark edge to her no matter the alignment. If you have ideas I'm all for the help on this part.

Your point about witches not being good at fighting is definitely a good point. A seperate BaB for wildshape could be a good idea, but I was a bit worried about leaving out the gish folks. I think I will change this as you suggested though.

If I give her access to 7th level spells I think I want to do so as a feat, that is only accessable at 19th or 20th level. I guess this would sort of be the witch's 'epic,' but not epic spellcasting.

I'll get back to your spell's later, because I have this massive list of stuff to deal with first.


Cipher,

Thanks for the praise. I'll definitely include voodoo somehow (see my response to nonsi). You're witch was rather interesting and in fact heavily influenced the creation mine (specifically it lead to the circles (from your patron set up), the hex feats (need I say), and the mage mark ability (from your tattoo thing)).


Everyone,

Alright. I think I covered everything. Thanks a lot guys.
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:20 PM   Top  -  End  -  #17
Just to Browse
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

... those spell lists do not seem balanced. Cleric spells are far better buff spells than druid spells, and shadow/necromancy seems very limited comparatively. You want to write out separate spell lists for these things, so that witches won't all just go cleric/druid or cleric/shadow.

Then again, the potionmaking is pretty weak... I'm not 100% sure what to make of this.
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Old 06-02-2012, 09:39 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
eftexar
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

I don't think the cleric list is that much better than the druids, especially since it doesn't have any necromancy spell's included here. Sure the buffs and damage output are better, but the druid has a lot of battle control area spells and plays better with the potion set-up.
I'm inclined to agree more with the shadow/necromancy list though. As is I'm thinking about adding the assassin spell list to this tally.
I forgot to give the familiar a boost in hit points, so it doesn't die instantly. In truth the familiar is completely useless anyways (well, I guess I did tie in the witch's potion crafting). It's only purpose is really flavor. I'm thinking of just making the potion crafting times standard and having the familiar tied to her normal spellcasting preperation instead.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:48 AM   Top  -  End  -  #19
nonsi
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

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Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
I forgot to give the familiar a boost in hit points, so it doesn't die instantly. In truth the familiar is completely useless anyways (well, I guess I did tie in the witch's potion crafting). It's only purpose is really flavor. I'm thinking of just making the potion crafting times standard and having the familiar tied to her normal spellcasting preperation instead.
Don't EVER knock flavor.
3e familiars are indeed quite pathetic - that's why I've suggested a massive boost for them in my version of the Witch (click sig for my codex). You're welcome to (ab)use it for inspiration.
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Last edited by nonsi : 06-03-2012 at 08:50 AM.
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Old 06-03-2012, 08:56 AM   Top  -  End  -  #20
nonsi
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

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Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
I actually haven't looked at your warrior. Is it in your rewrite and is there an online version I can look at?
Here's the latest version.
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Old 06-03-2012, 06:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #21
eftexar
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Oh I guess I did see it before. I hadn't realized that one was yours. I'll have to take a look at your familiars, but I'm not really wanting the familiar to do much of anything. It's sort of a 'the witch has to have a familiar' thing. Truthfully, I've never seen a familiar do anything other than help the witch with her magic.

On another note though, I was wondering if anyone knew of any plant-spell heavy spell lists for the druid anywhere. I was looking through the druid list and the number of plant related spells are relatively low (for being a 'druid' anyways), and the ones who are useful are even more scarce.

---------

Voodoo prestige class is done and is directly under the class in question.

I also added some new feats that are specific to each circle and hopefully aren't too powerful for feats. They are as powerful as class abilities, but the fact you have to choose them over some of the other level 1 only feats (which usually tend to be somewhat better than normal feats) should make up for it.
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Last edited by eftexar : 06-03-2012 at 07:32 PM. Reason: bump / combine double post
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Old 06-04-2012, 01:05 AM   Top  -  End  -  #22
nonsi
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

"Hex 2/ targets"
I know what you meant from the description, but the way it's written, it is read "Hex 2 per targets". This is meaningless.
Change it to "Hex: 2 targets" or "Hex (2 targets)".


You knock off familiars too easy. They can have a lot of added value to roleplay, strategy, mischief and a lot of other fun stuff.
When you do get to my familiar, ignore "Dire Metamorphosis" and the familiar spells.
The rest is viable as inspiration source in association with your witch.


I find it odd that you associate enhanced combat capabilities with voodoo magic.
I don't see the connection.
Now that I've seen all your ideas regarding voodoo, here's how I'd handle it:
1. Voodoo Spell feat is really not all that powerful. Drop the "3 other hex feats" and make it "3rd level spells from your primary circle".
2. Improved Voodoo Spell should be viable as soon as a witch has access to 4th level primary circle spell effects.
3. From there on, treat the Vodouist's voodoo features as feats, with Voodoo Doll requiring Improved Voodoo Spell and each consequent feature-feat requiring the previous. Basically, any HD feat or Witch-level feat should allow taking them. However, make the ability to prepare a voodoo doll during combat a separate feat.

The above suggestions:
- disassociate voodoo from physical combat (and the amount of added BAB & Hexes is negligible).
- allow all voodoo powers to be gained no sooner than 18th level (Obliteration shouldn't come sooner for a tier-3 class).
- remove the need to choose between voodoo and the other Witch features. I see no reason to make one choose one over the other, and making it a PrC would drastically decrease character versatility. For a more martially inclined Witch, there's always the Wild Heart option.

As for tribal witchdoctors . . . . . . . . . . multiclassing.
All the tribal witchdoctors I’ve seen only had the lower spectrum of voodoo powers (Pins and Needles at most).



Quote:
Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
On another note though, I was wondering if anyone knew of any plant-spell heavy spell lists for the druid anywhere. I was looking through the druid list and the number of plant related spells are relatively low (for being a 'druid' anyways), and the ones who are useful are even more scarce.
Try Spell Compendium and Masters of the Wild.
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Last edited by nonsi : 06-04-2012 at 10:55 AM.
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Old 06-04-2012, 02:52 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
eftexar
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Alright, nonsi, I removed the PrC and made most of the changes you suggested. Voodoo is now completely feat related.
I set up limits to uses as I did with the hex feats. I feel like unlimited uses would be too powerful for feats. The ability to combine hex and voodoo uses with a feat should make up for this.

And sorry to be a pain, but you wouldn't happen to host your rewrite anywhere I don't have to login in would you. Google docs perhaps so I don't even have download it?

I hope I get to play another game soon as I would like to try out this class (so many classes, not enough games). My last one, a pbp, sort of, but didn't fall through. Nobody posted for a week and when I came back and checked again everyone had left me really far behind. So sad...
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Last edited by eftexar : 06-04-2012 at 02:52 PM.
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Old 06-04-2012, 04:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
nonsi
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

I believe I've found a loophole that I'm not sure you'd want to be there.

(L. 6) Voodoo Spell
(L. 8) Improved Voodoo Spell
(L. 9) Voodoo Doll
(L. 12) Pins and Needles
(L. 12) Obliterate !!!
(L. 15) . . .
(L. 16) . . .
(L. 18) . . .

You really should add Puppeteer & Blood Magic to Obliterate's prereqs.
This serves 2 purposes:
1. limits insta-kill to level 18
2. makes a lot of thematic sense: you have to learn how to inflict harm to self befor applying it at a distance and you have to learn full control over your target before you can make it go in all directions.

At the very least, add Blood Magic and Forced Movement as prereqs, so that Obliterate is not available before level 16.



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Originally Posted by eftexar View Post
And sorry to be a pain, but you wouldn't happen to host your rewrite anywhere I don't have to login in would you. Google docs perhaps so I don't even have download it?
PM me your email and I'll send it to you.
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Old Yesterday, 04:44 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
nonsi
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Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Although eftexar has stated that he’d reached his happy spot regarding his Witch – since I like this class so much and feel like it’s almost there – I’ve decided to share what I feel is missing to make it perfect:


(I) Primary Circle is just begging for a capstone 7th level spell at level 20.


(II) Secondary Circle needs a significant boost.
A witch is a spellcaster. No storybook, film, TV series or anecdote would tell you otherwise.
Folklore tells us that when you encounter a witch (even for the 20th time), you have no idea what kind of rabbit she's gonna pull out of her hat.
Therefore, I see no motivation whatsoever not to allow selection from both remaining lists for spells of her secondary circle.
Second, I suggest the following progression by level advancement:

Level   Secondary Circle 
1 1 (1)
2 1 (1)
3 2 (1)
4 2 (1)
5 3 (2)
6 3 (2)
7 4 (2)
8 4 (2)
9 5 (3)
10 5 (3)
11 6 (3)
12 6 (3)
13 7 (4)
14 7 (4)
15 8 (4)
16 8 (4)
17 9 (5)
18 9 (5)
19 10 (5)
20 10 (5)

In my opinion, anything below that is an insult to the theme of a witch.


(III) And since in folklore a witch’s repertoire is intrinsically linked to her alignment, I would tie the Witch’s primary circle to it:
If she’s evil, her primary circle would be the black circle.
If she’s good, her primary circle would be the white circle.
If she’s neutral, her primary circle would be the green circle.

Whatever her primary circle is, she may freely choose spells for her secondary circle from the other two.


(IV) Another thing that goes hand in hand with the witch in folklore, is being a bag of minor tricks, so I suggest that a witch begins her career knowing a number of cantrips/orisons (depending on her alignment) equal to her combined Wis & Cha modifiers.


(V) Since the Witch has so few known spells, it’d be a terrible burden sacrificing any of them to augment her familiar, so I suggest that the witch’s stat-bonuses for Improved Wildshape to apply for her familiar.


(VI) I thought about an ACF for good witches: Unicorn Rider.
I think it would be a good idea to base it off of the “Divine celibate” PrC from BoEF, but I don’t feel the inspiration coming, so if anyone feels like taking a crack at it . . . but instead of an ACF or PrC, it might be viable as a twist of Improved Familiar.
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Last edited by nonsi : Yesterday at 10:48 PM.
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Unread Today, 05:08 AM   Top  -  End  -  #26
nonsi
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Default Re: The Witch, a tier 3 druid (3.5, Peach)

Suggestion for fixing Primary Circle progression (just because the SL progression is more even, and a few more known spells would be an improvement in my view):


Level   Primary Circle 
1 2 (1)
2 3 (1)
3 4 (2)
4 4 (2)
5 5 (2)
6 6 (3)
7 6 (3)
8 7 (3)
9 8 (4)
10 8 (4)
11 9 (4)
12 10 (5)
13 10 (5)
14 11 (5)
15 11 (5)
16 12 (6)
17 12 (6)
18 13 (6)
19 13 (6)
20 14 (7)
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