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Old 05-06-2012, 02:16 AM   Top  -  End  -  #1
nonsi
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Default The Warrior – THIS is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

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Fixing the core Fighter: Motivations & Strategy:
Spoiler



BAB: 1:1

Saves: good Fort, poor Ref & Will

Skill points per level: 4 + INT-mod
Class skills: Balance, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Handle Animals, Heal, Hide, Intimidate, Jump, Knowledge (dungeoneering / geography / history / local / nobility and royalty), Listen, Move Silently, Profession, Ride, Sense Motive, Spot, Survival and Swim.

Weapons and armor proficiencies: Warriors are proficient with weapons according to the core/UA rules (DM’s & players’ choice). They’re also proficient in the use of medium armor, shields and bucklers.
Alternative Equipment Packages:
- A warrior may trade 1 Weapon Training (see below) for gaining heavy armor and tower shield proficiency.
- A warrior may trade medium armor, shield and buckler proficiency for any single combat feat they could normally take at 1st level, plus having Tumble as class skill.


Class Features:

Level  
Art Of War
 
Combat Edge
 
Warrior's Insights
 
Weapon Training
 
1 Warcraft, Learning Ease
+1
3 Weapons
2 Bonus Feat Combat Focus (Maintain / Expend)
3 Warcraft Warrior Talent
4 Bonus Feat
+2
Ever Vigilant (Maintain)
5 Warcraft
4 Weapons
6 Bonus Feat Second Wind (Expend)
7 Warcraft
+3
Warrior Talent
8 Bonus Feat Tide of Battle (Expend)
9 Warcraft
5 Weapons
10 Bonus Feat, Array Of Stunts
+4
Veteran's Grit (Maintain)
11 Warcraft Warrior Talent
12 Bonus Feat Action without Thought (Maintain / Expend)
13 Warcraft
+5
6 Weapons
14 Bonus Feat Battleshaper (Expend)
15 Warcraft Warrior Talent
16 Bonus Feat
+6
Find the Mark (Expend)
17 Warcraft
7 Weapons
18 Bonus Feat Through the Haze (Maintain)
19 Warcraft
+7
Warrior Talent
20 Bonus Feat, Master of Warfare Combat Focus Perfection (Maintain / Regain)



The table columns and what they represent:
Spoiler




Warcraft (Ex)
Spoiler


Learning Ease (Ex)
For the purposes of qualifying for "Fighter feats" (gained by either class progression or character progression), you treat your ability scores as though they were 2 points higher than they actually are at 1st level.
At level 6 and each 5 class-levels thereafter, this bonus increases by +1 (max +5 at level 16).


Bonus Feat (Ex)
Same as the core Fighter.
A warrior automatically qualifies for any Fighter ACF that requires a feat trade. Furthermore, a warrior is not bound for taking an ACF exactly at the stated level. Once the stated level is gained, the said ACF is available from there on.


Combat Focus and its derivatives (Ex)
Spoiler


Warrior Talent (Ex)
Spoiler


Array of Stunts (Ex)
As a swift or immediate action, the warrior may choose any [Combat] feat he meets the prerequisites for and use it for 1 round.
A feat may be chosen with this ability only once per encounter.


Master of Warfare (Ex)
Your Array Of Stunts ability may now grant any 2 feats simultaneously or any 1 Warcraft ability you meet the prerequisites for.
Furthermore, you may select any feat/Warcraft with this ability as often as you like, with no "cooldown" time restriction.




// ==================================================



A final touch for the big picture . . .



Here's the best guide I know of for maximizing what one can do with the core Fighter and feats.
Well, if it's good enough for the core Fighter, it would be just as useful with my Warrior.


And to nail down all possible warrior archetypes, a handful of new feats is required:
Spoiler




Btw, I happen to have stumbled upon these "D&D Next” Fighter Design Goals.
To my better judgment, this Fighter remake covers them all easily (except for #6, which is neither obtainable nor desirable) - and much more.

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Old 05-06-2012, 02:34 AM   Top  -  End  -  #2
Doorhandle
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

The combat focus and discern battle abilities are both useful and sound perfect for the fluff of a soldier: which I would suggest as a class name because warrior is not only already the name of an NPC class, but has connotations of a vagrant who just likes to fight and is good at it (which is, granted, the vast majority of adventurers) rather than the disciplined, regimental example here.

To be honest, I never like temporary feat-grabbing abilities, as they sound like a pain to look-up mid-battle, but I'll let it slide as I have not experience with such things.

Otherwise: Looks good.
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:40 AM   Top  -  End  -  #3
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Aside from an improved skill list and extra skill points, how does this guy meet the tier 3 requirement for being able to do something besides his primary role of "fight"?

Solid tier 4 so far.
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:47 AM   Top  -  End  -  #4
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

I chose the name 'Warrior' because swashbucklers, rangers and barbarians (and many other archetypes, I guess) are not necessarily soldiers. That doesn't mean they can't be disciplined.
I saw a film yesterday on NAT GEO about this tribe where the rite of initiation includes dancing barefoot through a raging campfire (and not a small one). They may be uneducated, but there's no chance on earth they could do that if they were undisciplined.
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Old 05-06-2012, 02:58 AM   Top  -  End  -  #5
nonsi
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ashtagon View Post
Aside from an improved skill list and extra skill points, how does this guy meet the tier 3 requirement for being able to do something besides his primary role of "fight"?

Solid tier 4 so far.
Re-read Combat Focus - the part that starts with "A warrior can voluntarily enter Combat Focus outside of combat".
Now re-read Ever Vigilant, Second Wind, Veteran's Grit, Action Without Thought, Through the Haze and Combat Focus Perfection.

But now I see that this "outside of combat" period needs to lengthen with level progression.
I'll make it a total of 5 rounds in a 10min period, which one doesn't have to take consecutively, and increase it by +1 round for each even level passed 2.
This will be enough, I guess.
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Old 05-06-2012, 08:31 AM   Top  -  End  -  #6
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

I think the duration of the Combat Focus should be longer, or scale quicker. I see no issue with a level 20 warrior being continuously under Combat Focus, for example.
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Old 05-06-2012, 08:45 AM   Top  -  End  -  #7
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

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Re-read Combat Focus - the part that starts with "A warrior can voluntarily enter Combat Focus outside of combat".
Now re-read Ever Vigilant, Second Wind, Veteran's Grit, Action Without Thought, Through the Haze and Combat Focus Perfection.
I did, and I agree with her. The ability to see through illusions, resist mind-affecting, and cancel out status ailments is not Tier 3 stuff. Tier 3 is the ability to do your job right, and also do other stuff. That means skills, and also things like stealth, scouting, being a face, finding traps, flying, swimming, buffing, debuffing, creating illusions, healing, summoning, teleporting, things the party needs when you're not fighting. This guy gets none of that. I would say he's a solid Tier 4.

Also, fighters need Appraise. A fighter is a master weapons specialist. He knows how much that sword you're wielding costs. I would say give him Appraise as a class skill, then around level 3 give him a bonus to Appraise checks related to weapons and armor equal to half his class level or so, and then at a higher level give him the ability to use an Appraise check to identify items, which takes an hour and he can't take 20 on the check. High DC, but doable. The ability to identify weapons and armor the party finds at-will, that will help him reach the Tier 3 mark (but it won't do it by itself).
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:45 AM   Top  -  End  -  #8
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

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Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
I did, and I agree with her. The ability to see through illusions, resist mind-affecting, and cancel out status ailments is not Tier 3 stuff. Tier 3 is the ability to do your job right, and also do other stuff. That means skills, and also things like stealth, scouting, being a face, finding traps, flying, swimming, buffing, debuffing, creating illusions, healing, summoning, teleporting, things the party needs when you're not fighting. This guy gets none of that. I would say he's a solid Tier 4.

Also, fighters need Appraise. A fighter is a master weapons specialist. He knows how much that sword you're wielding costs. I would say give him Appraise as a class skill, then around level 3 give him a bonus to Appraise checks related to weapons and armor equal to half his class level or so, and then at a higher level give him the ability to use an Appraise check to identify items, which takes an hour and he can't take 20 on the check. High DC, but doable. The ability to identify weapons and armor the party finds at-will, that will help him reach the Tier 3 mark (but it won't do it by itself).
Ok... Appraise, Hide & Move Silently. Check. Now Commando is also viable.

Bonus to Appraise checks will come at level 5.
Identify will come at level 15.
(later on. Too tired now)

But I don't think 6 skill points per level, or having Search & Trapfinding would be appropriate. That would be stepping on the skillmonkeys' toes.


As for the 'but it won't do it by itself' bit... I don't see what else is needed.
Athlete: check.
Acrobat: check.
Negotiator: almost. One could negotiate decently without Bluff as class skill
Sentinel: check.
Scout: check.
Wanderer: check.
Combat Medic: check.


Regarding flying, buffing, debuffing, creating illusions, summoning, teleporting - those don't belong in the warrior's basket of responsibilities to provide.
There's magical gear and there are allies of other classes. That should suffice.
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Old 05-06-2012, 11:47 AM   Top  -  End  -  #9
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

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Originally Posted by silphael View Post
I think the duration of the Combat Focus should be longer, or scale quicker. I see no issue with a level 20 warrior being continuously under Combat Focus, for example.
Any suggestions how long and the scaling bit ?
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Old 05-06-2012, 07:19 PM   Top  -  End  -  #10
silphael
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

I was thinking about something like round/level with 4-5 rounds at first level, this number of rounds being on a 1.5 minutes basis.
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Old 05-06-2012, 09:20 PM   Top  -  End  -  #11
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

I like this fighter fix. but a lot of the abilites are almost identicel to the one Kenneth made Here ( minus the ToB like Maneuvers those are page 8)
Spoiler


anyways, trapfinding makes no sense so I agree with you on that one, teh fighter is about combat, not about cutting wires or propping springs. 4 skills points/level to me is the sweet spot for non InT based and non skill focused classes.

also, stay away from anything that is supernatural in my opinion. the fighter should be a, to quote TV tropes, a bad-ass normal


I have to disagree with neo-seraphi on the fighter getting appriase though. just becuase one knows how to master a weapon and most effectly end one's life with it, doesn;t mean they know how much it cost whihc the total cost of anything is a sum of so mnay variables that are outside of anything the fighter would knwo it ludicrous to think that just becuase thef ighter is a weapon master with the halberd, that doesn;t mean he knows how much it costs. you have to factor in things liek, the cost fo coal, iron, the repuatation of the smith doing the frabrication, what typ eof leather teh grip is wrapped in, what tree was sued to make teh wood for the scabard, and numerous other things that iw ould assume the guy whos pend his life leraning how to beat teh living daylihgts out of somebody would not really have time to learn.
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Old 05-07-2012, 06:29 AM   Top  -  End  -  #12
nonsi
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
I like this fighter fix. but a lot of the abilites are almost identicel to the one Kenneth made Here ( minus the ToB like Maneuvers those are page 8)
I Saw it.
In terms of power, it does produce greater numbers all over the board.
But that's not what I was after at all.
If a fighter gets his hands on a spellcaster, the result is usually the same: spellcaster is dead.
The problem is that usually:
1. Mr. fighter is not gonna gets his hands on mr. spellcaster.
2. Mr. spellcaster is gonna turn mr. fighter off like a switch.

My Warrior is powerful enough out of the box to not be outshined in martial combat be an averagely optimized druid, so beyond that, options & action-economy seemed a lot more important than pushing stats even further.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ngilop View Post
I have to disagree with neo-seraphi on the fighter getting appriase though. just becuase one knows how to master a weapon and most effectly end one's life with it, doesn;t mean they know how much it cost whihc the total cost of anything is a sum of so mnay variables that are outside of anything the fighter would knwo it ludicrous to think that just becuase thef ighter is a weapon master with the halberd, that doesn;t mean he knows how much it costs. you have to factor in things liek, the cost fo coal, iron, the repuatation of the smith doing the frabrication, what typ eof leather teh grip is wrapped in, what tree was sued to make teh wood for the scabard, and numerous other things that iw ould assume the guy whos pend his life leraning how to beat teh living daylihgts out of somebody would not really have time to learn.
On the make-sense aspect, I totally agree with you. However, sometimes there's some compromise on the make-sense part for the sake of balance.
I'm still contemplating if NeoSeraphi's suggestion merits the make-sense compromise (I mean, the ability to identify equipment instead of the party arcanist - is that what's gonna bring a character closer to tier 3?).
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Old 05-07-2012, 08:27 AM   Top  -  End  -  #13
NeoSeraphi
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

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On the make-sense aspect, I totally agree with you. However, sometimes there's some compromise on the make-sense part for the sake of balance.
I'm still contemplating if NeoSeraphi's suggestion merits the make-sense compromise (I mean, the ability to identify equipment instead of the party arcanist - is that what's gonna bring a character closer to tier 3?).
Like I said, not by itself. But the ability to be useful at things other than fighting is what makes a character Tier 3. Extra options is usually better, if that's where you're aiming.

Now, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Tier 4 classes. I enjoy playing tier 4 classes. They're pretty damned good at combat, and nothing else, but that's all they need to do really. However, if you want a Tier 3 character, he can't just rule combat, he has to have a bag of tricks outside of it too.
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Old 05-07-2012, 10:57 AM   Top  -  End  -  #14
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoSeraphi View Post
Now, there's absolutely nothing wrong with Tier 4 classes. I enjoy playing tier 4 classes. They're pretty damned good at combat, and nothing else, but that's all they need to do really. However, if you want a Tier 3 character, he can't just rule combat, he has to have a bag of tricks outside of it too.
I totlly agree, but the issues mentioned in post #5 together with the skill-associated roles specified in post #8 - aren't they enough to be considered a reasonable bag of tricks outside of combat, without the need for unnatural powers ?

Regarding the Appraise bit, I'm considering of doing something in the spirit of 'Assess the Enemy' Warcraft, limited to weapons & armors only.
EDIT: actually, I think it should be a Warcraft.
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Old 05-07-2012, 11:09 AM   Top  -  End  -  #15
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

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Originally Posted by silphael View Post
I was thinking about something like round/level with 4-5 rounds at first level, this number of rounds being on a 1.5 minutes basis.
Ok, I took your advice.
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Old 05-19-2012, 06:04 AM   Top  -  End  -  #16
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

I've added another Warcraft - 'Evaluate Combat Gear' - that was inspired by NeoSeraphi's suggestion.

Also, given 'Combat Focus' feature was intended (among other things) to come instead the majority of the 'Combat Focus' feat tree from PHBII, I was thinking of incorporating 'Combat Vigor' into 'Veteran's Grit' and wonder if it would be over doing it.

Other than the above, if anyone finds any room for other improvements, do share.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:32 AM   Top  -  End  -  #17
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Ok, changes have been made:
- 'Combat Focus' Will save bonuses have been simplified and made level-scaling - starting lower but ending higher.
- 'Ever Vigilant', 'Veteran's Grit', 'Find The Mark' and 'Combat Focus Perfection' have been improved.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:26 PM   Top  -  End  -  #18
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

This is a really solid class. I think that it definitely leans towards the high end of tier 4. At first I was worried when I saw the table because it seemed like a lot, but at a second glance I realized I was wrong.
What I do worry about is that warcraft makes some of the original classes obsolete (which may not be a bad thing). It is obviously better than the barbarian, the knight, and the swashbuckler at their own jobs.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:33 AM   Top  -  End  -  #19
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

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This is a really solid class. I think that it definitely leans towards the high end of tier 4. At first I was worried when I saw the table because it seemed like a lot, but at a second glance I realized I was wrong.
What I do worry about is that warcraft makes some of the original classes obsolete (which may not be a bad thing). It is obviously better than the barbarian, the knight, and the swashbuckler at their own jobs.
Definitely.
All melees are sub par once you pass 7th level, so this class allows you to realize practically any martial-combat role you'd envision.
Not including high end maneuvers, this class is better than any and all official base classes at their own game. This was intentional. There's nothing wrong with melees reclaiming their position as the party's meat shield. There's no reason why every mundane-martial-combat archetype should require a different base class when all of them do mundane-martial-combat (weapons, physique & wits).
Also, the reason I was so fascinated with this endeavor is that it was incredibly challenging. Creating a stand-alone base class that's decent and fun throughout all 20 levels, very customizable and at the same time mundane in terms of the means of doing what it does was next to an impossible task.
And I do believe I managed to hit tier-3, thanks to doubling the skill points, expanding the class-skills list and the out-of-combat Combat Focus option. So now, one has a wide selection of skill-associated roles to choose from (but can't be exceptionally good at many of them in a single character build) and the ability to dare quite a lot in out-of-combat situations, knowing the odds for survival are in his favor (but definitely not guaranteed). It's not a solid tier-3 like the Bard or Factotum and it's not a skillmonkey like the Rogue or Scout, but stepping on their toes was never the intent.
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Old 05-22-2012, 11:17 PM   Top  -  End  -  #20
eftexar
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Hmm... No arguments with overshadowing some of the melee classes, but I'm not sure if you quite reached tier 3. Sure you have a lot of abilities (and all of them are interesting), but a large number of them seem to be passive. Sure this class could fight and even own a lot of tier 3s, but it's out of combat options aren't as great as most tier 3s and it doesn't have alot of active abilities.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:36 AM   Top  -  End  -  #21
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

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Hmm... No arguments with overshadowing some of the melee classes, but I'm not sure if you quite reached tier 3. Sure you have a lot of abilities (and all of them are interesting), but a large number of them seem to be passive. Sure this class could fight and even own a lot of tier 3s, but it's out of combat options aren't as great as most tier 3s and it doesn't have alot of active abilities.
Ok, I have no idea how that happened, but this is the 1st time that I see your reply (I refreshed an hour ago and it wasn't there).

Now, regarding the passiveness issue . . .
Expending Combat Focus allows modifying any single d20 roll. That seems quite active to me.
Ever Vigilant also counts for when initiating maneuvers.
Tide of Battle & Battleshaper grant extra actions.
Warrior Talent offers quite a few battlefield control options.
And that's without mentioning 7 general feats that you can assign to practically anything that doesn't involve magic.


Anyway, the Warrior's out of combat options are as far as I felt comfortable pushing them. Beyond that, the only thing you wouldn't have altogether is Trapfinding, since with so many modifiers & options, it doesn't really need SA (reminder: UMD can still be taken using C-C skills)........... and there's always the Rogue + Able Learner combo, if you insist.


Btw, if it's at all interesting, I've just added a note in the description of Weapon Training to make sword & board viable.
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Old 05-25-2012, 09:41 AM   Top  -  End  -  #22
Icedaemon
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Nice! I do like the 'generalist who specializes' build strategy - tried to do something like this myself half a year ago or so, but was too busy with other matters.

Edit:

From a purely thematic standpoint, "Evaluate Combat Gear" ought not to give the full benefits of identification. While finding out passive bonuses via apparaisal and experimentation makes sense, certain magical command-word based and some other highly circumstantial aspects of the item ought to remain unknown.
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Old 05-25-2012, 04:34 PM   Top  -  End  -  #23
nonsi
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

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Originally Posted by Icedaemon View Post
From a purely thematic standpoint, "Evaluate Combat Gear" ought not to give the full benefits of identification. While finding out passive bonuses via apparaisal and experimentation makes sense, certain magical command-word based and some other highly circumstantial aspects of the item ought to remain unknown.
I tend to agree, to a certain degree.
While it makes little sense that that such feature should grant the ability to deduce that a certain spear can make you fly with the proper command word, if that same spear has a command that makes it flame out - knowledge to the latter should be available via this ability.
I'm just not sure how to word it out.

This conclusion derives mainly from the fact that whenever I saw or read a scene that involved identifying a newly found weapon as magical, there was always someone in there that could at least partially figure it out from the runes inscribed on it - and it wasn't always a spellcaster.
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Old 05-26-2012, 01:05 PM   Top  -  End  -  #24
nonsi
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Ok, I've been having some thoughts about making a swap between 2 class features.
I'll explain my motivations and I'd like some feedbacks from my fellow brewers if it's the right decision or not.

The features I'm thinking of swapping are 'Through the Haze' and 'Battleshaper'.
The motivations are as follows:
- 'Through the Haze' is something along the lines of "by now, the warrior has seen it all", and a 14th level warrior is quite well resistant most of the time to all sorts of manipulations anyway.
- By level 14, a fullscale spellcaster played halfway decently has a huge edge over noncasters, so 'Battleshaper' at this level seems almost crucial.

So people, what do you say ?
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Old 05-26-2012, 04:16 PM   Top  -  End  -  #25
Manly Man
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

I'd say go ahead. Having the better abilities come faster is something that would probably bump it up just that much closer to Tier 3. Yes, they're the same abilities, but the one that is, obviously, quite a bit better comes earlier, letting them keep up with other folks of their level. Granted, having extra actions like that is awesome no matter when you get them, but the sooner the better, I say.
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Old 05-27-2012, 06:25 AM   Top  -  End  -  #26
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

I agree with Manly Man (great handle/pic/quote btw!) in that Battleshaper is a seriously sweet ability, and the earlier you get it the more options are opened within the class. Whereas Through the Haze is also rather nice (as is just about everything about this class in honesty!) I feel that immunities for mundane classes should tend towards the upper end of the class anyhow. Considering you can have IUD, Mettle & Evasion in play by level 9, combined with the option of Combat Focus expenditure, you've already given the class a range of tools by which they can limit problems from all the stuff Through the Haze helps with, and then some. This makes the ability less vital than it otherwise may have been. The swap, therefore, makes perfect sense and I'm in no doubt that this will give an extra edge to the Warrior both as a whole and as a supreme combatant. Go for it!

On a separate issue, this class can't actually take a good number of the Fighter bonus feats from many of the books, because it has nothing stating it's levels count as Fighter levels for the purposes of requirements, so stuff like weapon specialisation are actually off-bounds at present. It's a small issue requiring a single line of text, and I'm pretty sure this was an unintentional oversight, but there it is! Also, I assume the class uses the Fighter chassis for BAB and saves, but as of yet I've not actually seen it state as such anywhere (but I may just be displaying astounding selective blindness!)...
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Old 05-27-2012, 06:52 AM   Top  -  End  -  #27
Midwoka
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
Also, I assume the class uses the Fighter chassis for BAB and saves, but as of yet I've not actually seen it state as such anywhere (but I may just be displaying astounding selective blindness!)...
It's the second thing in nonsi's post, blindy. =)
Right under the Spoiler tag.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
BAB: 1:1

Saves: good Fort, poor Ref & Will
(admittedly, it IS weird not having it in the table of class features)
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:08 AM   Top  -  End  -  #28
Veklim
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

.........oh yeah.........

I hate my selective blindness...you'd never have guessed I have 20:20 vision! I can see why it's not all there on the table, there's a lot of other stuff to fit into an honestly not-that-large space!

My other point stands though, as far as I can see anyhow!
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:22 AM   Top  -  End  -  #29
Midwoka
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Quote:
Originally Posted by Veklim View Post
My other point stands though, as far as I can see anyhow!
If it was about the levels not counting for Fighter feats, nonsi actually covered that too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
Combat Edge
Most of the Warrior's abilities detailed in the next 2 columns provide the indicated values as bonuses to attack, damage, opposed rolls and other aspects (read on).
This feature comes instead of all Weapon Focus tree feats (except for Weapon Focus itself). Since those feats are Fighter-only feats and since I'm aiming for built-in advantage, I consider this a massive improvement, since now feats will not be wasted on stat-improvements that are instead gained automatically.
So it was an intentional omission. I seem to remember some cool Fighter-only feats from Player's Handbook II or Complete Warrior, though, so I still see some problems with losing them entirely.
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Old 05-27-2012, 07:30 AM   Top  -  End  -  #30
Veklim
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Default Re: The Warrior – this is how you make a tier-3 Fighter fix

Exactly, whereas Combat Edge makes some things redundant, there are a fair few feats which require fighter levels which are funky and currently inaccessible. It's not a huge issue considering everything else this class does, but it'd be nice to have the option there.
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