View Profile: Sacrosanct - Morrus' Unofficial Tabletop RPG News
  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 07:23 PM
    I said there were no SoD and I was mistaken about that. But it doesn't change the fact that it was more lethal overall in 2e than 3e, as explained. saving throws in 2e were much harder until you got to high level. We know the overwhelming period of playing the game was before you got to high level. So in actual play, the game was much more lethal for 2e PCs than 3e in the context of saving...
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 05:57 PM
    At 4th level, the fighter saved on an 8 in 3e. On a 14 in AD&D. A 10th level fighter in AD&D needed a 9 to pass. It looks like typical DCs for monsters in the MM have DCs around 21 for CR10 creatures. A 10th level fighter, not counting choosing feats to improve save chances, would have around a +11 bonus. So AD&D was much harder at most levels players actually play PCs with, with 3e finally...
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 04:51 PM
    I much prefer books. I find it easier to find things and flip through them. But I'm old. I have friends who much prefer digital. Heathens...
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 04:11 PM
    Also, so spot checking for 3e: Save or Die: There were SoD effects in 3e, like the medusa's gaze. However, fort saves were easier to make in 3e compared to AD&D at the typical levels PCs faced them. In 3e, you added your Con modifier to your fort save, and level progression bonuses outstripped the roll needed in AD&D. For example, with said medusa, if a level 4 fighter in AD&D and a 3e...
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 03:23 PM
    I suspect your experiences are the norm. Thatís why when I looked at the rules, I was surprised. 2e was written a lot more brutal than 1e, but we still played with a lot of 1e rules, like assuming 4d6 as normal, and ignored the massive auto death save. Occasionally some hardcore DM wanted 3d6 in order, but that was rare rather than the norm. I guess itís like anything else. Once youíre given...
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 03:16 PM
    I donít recall improved weapon dice as core. But I admit, I played mostly 1e with only a few 2e elements (like thief skill progression). But I will also remind how you got massive penalties for dual wielding. So theoretically a hyper specialized drizzt clone at level 1 could do a lot of damage, with a 20 THACO that got a -2/-4 penalty to hit, you werenít hitting to do that damage. Also, Iíll...
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 03:10 PM
    I said method I in 1e was 4d6 drop lowest. I am in fact correct. Since you quoted the DMG, Iím sure you saw the very next sentence was how it labels method I as 4d6. Not method II or V, but the very first method. You also ignore the meat of that paragraph where it says not to use 3d6 if you want decent PCs or are serious about the game
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 05:18 AM
    I'm still curious how you're figuring out a fighter does 50 points of damage with no strength bonus. Weapon specialization in 2e gives you a +1 to hit and +2 damage, and an extra attack on the 2nd, 4th, and subsequent even rounds. If you choose to have 2 weapons like you're saying, you suffer a -2 penalty to your primary weapon, and -4 penalty to your off hand weapon. Certainly you should...
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 04:59 AM
    3e is kinda tricky, because by RAW, you can have a character that mops the floor with enemies with several builds. Hardly deadly to the PCs. Then factor in you got rid of save or die, level drains, instant death at X amount of points in a single attack, and then youíre hard pressed to convince that 3e is more lethal than previous editions. In TSR D&D, a dragons breath weapon would kill most of...
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 03:28 AM
    Used to be that way. Not sure if it still is. Used to be if he blocked me or I blocked him and I created the thread, and anyone who quoted him, he would get a notification he was quoted, but ďpost hiddenĒ message would display. Either way, it feels like a long time friend just blocked me over this, which is why it feels like a bummer (normally I couldnít care less if someone blocked me; it...
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Today, 02:59 AM
    Wait, what? It looks like lowkey13 blocked me. I donít mind if people put others on ignore for whatever reason, but this strikes me odd because over the past 10 years, weíve agreed and got along on 99% of our posts. Weíre both 1e fans as our favorite edition. I donít know if there is something going on outside of here that caused him to be so aggressive in his response, but if there is, I...
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 10:12 PM
    I quoted the text in the PHB. Don't like it, take it up with Gary. Besides, there were only a few months between the PHB and DMG. Are you really arguing that most people defaulted to 3d6 in order because that's what they knew in 1978 in those brief months between the publications, as opposed to an exponentially higher number of gamers over the following 10 years when they had both book...
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:30 PM
    Looking at the rules and how they are written, it seems pretty clear that 2e was, "We're gonna keep the really brutal things like save or die, and level drain that came from 1e. Then we're gonna make it even harder by saying 3d6 in order is the number one option, get rid of the 0 hp bleed out rule, and make you make a save or die if you take 50 or more points of damage, and then beef up the...
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:25 PM
    No, it's not. As has been pointed out, 4d6 drop lowest was Method I in 1e; in 2e, it was method V. Method I in 2e was 3d6 in order. The 1e PHB didn't default to OD&D, but referenced the DMG: Each ability score is determined by random number generation. The referee has several methods of how this random number generation should be accomplished suggested to him or her in the DUNGEON...
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:45 PM
    If it's weird, it's because it's not true ;) That's the same assumption I had. But when I actually looked at the rules (see above), it seems clear that 2e is actually the most lethal. It doesn't jive with my biases, but there you go. Can't argue with the facts.
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:00 PM
    Jester talked about dying at 0 hp, and I talked about hitting 0 hp, so yeah, it was the rule based on what we said in our posts ;)
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 07:22 PM
    I forgot to respond to this. Then your DM was being unfair to you ;) (or more likely they weren't aware of the actual rule). It's actually a core rule in 1e that you fall unconscious at 0 hp, then begin to bleed out to -10. If you die at 0 hp, that's not in alignment with the rules (even if it's the most common way people played. We certainly played like that).
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 07:01 PM
    To their credit, I think they realized this. This is what they said in the 2e DMG re: Method I: Method I Disadvantages: First, some players may consider their characters to be hopelessly average. Second, the players don't get many choices. Using method I, only luck enables a player to get a character of a particular type, since he has no control over the dice. Most characters have little...
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:51 PM
    Which is why I said this: I'm evaluating the editions on how they were designed and written, as that's the only fair way to do a comparison. And I don't think that's limited in application at all. In fact, that's the only way to do it fairly. Saying 5e is more lethal than 1e because you had a 5 DM who was brutal and a 1e DM that gave everything to the players they wanted and never put...
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:44 PM
    Is surprised me too when I double checked. But yes, Method I in 1e was 4d6 drop lowest. In 2e, Method I went back to 3d6 in order.
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:19 PM
    Whenever the lethality of editions are discussed, typically it's usually OD&D is the most, then AD&D 1e, then B/X, then 2e, then 3e, then 5e, then 4e. That seems to be the most common breakdown people do when rating the editions (it's how I would have done it by memory). However, when looking at the rules, it seems 2e just might actually be the most lethal edition. (Yes, I know any edition can...
    64 replies | 1223 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:08 AM
    My players really don't have that issue or desire to loot regular items like that for a couple reasons: 1. encumbrance. That stuff adds up quickly, and it's not very easy to move and explore a dungeon when you're trying to carry all those weapons and armor 2. Market. even if they do get out with all of that gear, there isn't a real market for it. They'd have to go into a city which may or...
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 07:54 PM
    Here is a list from the reddit discussion
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 06:11 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    I know I shouldn't reply again and against my better judgement, but now you're just flat out lying. I find it even more disingenuous because what your'e lying about was already address upthread, so I have to assume you're either not reading anything I'm writing, or you're intentionally lying. No it's not an orcs to orcs comparison. Once again you're totally ignoring how level 1 PCs in...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 04:14 PM
    I don't think people are arguing that making it turned based replicated D&D. What people (like myself) are saying, is that between turn based and real time, turn based is much closer to D&D, and would make it feel a lot more like D&D than real time does. Real time makes it like Sword Coast Legends, or Neverwinter MMO, and neither of those feel anything like D&D mechanically. Not even close. ...
    43 replies | 1745 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 04:07 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    Which makes the 5e orc twice as powerful compared to a level 1 5e PC than a 1e orc is to a 1e PC. As I said, apples to oranges. But what's the point. You're arguing that AD&D rest and recovery is comparable to 5e's, and that's just laughable. Not sure why you continue to argue that because everyone knows that's not true or even remotely close. I suspect you know it's not true. I suspect...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 02:38 AM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    Once again, you are being disingenuous in your selection. I said a typical creature a level 1 PC would face. In 5e, they bumped the orc up significantly. Level one PCs would not typically fight a group of orcs on a one to one basis. Youíre comparing apples to oranges. Look, youíre arguing an untenable position. Not only canít you back up your argument in an equal basis, but the book itself...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 10:52 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    I'd love to see your figures that monsters in 5e average 3.5x the ratio (or in the example above, that means 6x flat rate) the average damage of 1e counterparts. find out how often each monster hits on average in 5e compared to 1e (because I don't think they did hit more often with any significance), find out the average damage for each of those hits, and then compare. If the raw comparison is...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 10:09 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    5e recovers not 3.5 times the hit points, but 3.5 time the ratio of hit points that are available. So in order to make that particular point moot (which again, doesn't account for additional healing such as healing kits, potions of healing being a common item, and more classes that can heal or class abilities that can heal), 5e monsters would have to inflict 3.5 times the ratio of damage...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 08:54 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    When you make comments like this as to why healing is comparable in AD&D to 5e, this is why I think you either don't know anything about the game rules (which I doubt that's true), or that you hope no one else knows the difference, or that you're being intentionally disingenuous. I know you know the rules, so I can't figure out why you're insisting on arguing something that is so clearly not...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 08:15 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    Using AD&Ds rules for healing in 5e would have a huge impact (eliminating non magical healing almost completely, spells/powers only reset on a daily basis, etc). As well using 5e's rule of healing into an AD&D game (hit dice recovery on short rest, spell/power recovery on short rests) would also have a major impact. So much of an impact it would change how the game is played. Your handwaving...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 07:25 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    No it didn't. Nothing in AD&D had rules where you regained spells from a short rest. Or had the ability to engage in non-magical hit point recovery in a short rest. And AD&D not only did not have heal back to full on a long rest, but you only got what? 1 hp back per day? If you think PCs just sat around for hours after hours casting/memorizing/recasting healing spells, then that tells me your...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 05:18 PM
    Same here. I was about four hours in and that's about it. Haven't touched it since
    43 replies | 1745 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 05:05 PM
    For me, it has to be turned based. Not another Sword Coast Legends disaster (going to real time essentially ruins the D&D experience for me as they aren't compatible). That's why I'm glad Larian is running the show. Divinity is a great turn based game.
    43 replies | 1745 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 04:01 PM
    I'm not just giving my experience. I posted photos of the award winning costumes at LA CON from 1984. Nice try though. I am however, anxiously awaiting to see your photos of costumes from kids from the 80s that were modern day movie quality.
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 03:43 PM
    I'm pretty sure at this point neither of you remember what it was like in 1984. Saying you had to mail in orders and wait weeks for delivery isn't trying to make the 80s seem like the 1880s, it was the reality. You didn't have nearly as many shops that sold things you needed to make the costumes, you didn't have local access to specialty shops that specialized in those costumes, you didn't have...
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Warpiglet's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:49 PM
    There's more mystery in an imperfect system like 1e. There is more variability in power. Rolling hit points and abilities was exciting! I had a barbarian with 6 12s for hit point rolls...lottery odds! And it became part of his character... i think as as an adult (not a kid) the danger of missed saving throws and the game's deadliness are high stakes excitement. but I must say...
    74 replies | 2716 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 03:43 AM
    Thank you for the kind words. I definitely wanted to go with a heavy OSR and 80s pop culture theme lol. Lots of lessons learned though, as it was written during the playtest in 2013-14, and then hurriedly updated in 2016, so some things may be a bit outdated on a pure 5e context.
    74 replies | 2716 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 02:14 AM
    Yep! (right here) Although, while it is a standalone, it was really best used as a sort of sequel to my superdungeon Felk Mor
    74 replies | 2716 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 01:08 AM
    Post #10 is you responding to lowkey13 saying he likes OSR due to other reasons beyond nostalgia with ďyeah you do, just by a different name if you donít like the word nostalgiaĒ. This despite the fact that the reasons he gave have nothing to do with trying to reclaim a historical good feeling (which is what nostalgia is defined as), but instead how the rules and game design support his current...
    74 replies | 2716 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 10:22 PM
    You understand that was a movie, right? And movies have actual costume departments. A group of 12 year olds in small town America in 1984 arenít going to have the resources to replicate movie costumes. And youíll allow what? You canít change history, so Iím not sure what youíre allowing.
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 08:50 PM
    I wouldn't call 5e a retroclone because it has too many elements from recent editions, but it certainly brought back some of the reasons given upthread that can emulate OSR games pretty well if you want. For example, two things were fast chargen and statblocks in modules. here is a 5e PC of mine, and a screen shot of a 5e adventure I had written. These are two aspects of OSR that I really...
    74 replies | 2716 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 08:07 PM
    No one is calling you out for the reasons you gave. They are calling you out because you're saying everyone else's reasons are just nostalgia, when they aren't. Not by the definition of what nostalgia is.
    74 replies | 2716 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 07:59 PM
    B/X also had d6 for damage for all weapon types. Variable damage was an optional rule.
    74 replies | 2716 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 07:44 PM
    People are giving mechanical reasons of game design philosophy as to why they prefer OSR. That's not "longing or wistful affection", but how a game is designed. The fact you keep ignoring this no matter how many times it's pointed out makes me question your integrity with your intent on this topic. I played 1e up until 2012 when the playtest came out. That wasn't because of nostalgia. That...
    74 replies | 2716 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 07:25 PM
    Exactly. Fighters were proficient in just about every magic item. So it was no big deal to switch from a sword to an axe, to a polearm to a mace. Then specialization came around, and suddenly you heard players bemoan "But I wanted a magic sword, not an axe."
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 07:22 PM
    Sounds like you don't even have a definition of nostalgia, because you keep ascribing it to things where it doesn't fit the definition.
    74 replies | 2716 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 06:47 PM
    Not in small town America owned and created by teenagers. IF there were plenty, then I'm sure there would some evidence of it, yes? Instead, what we do have, is evidence like the photo I showed earlier. You didn't order materials online. Didn't exist. If you were lucky enough to have a catalog, it was still 6-8 weeks for delivery. So not only in small town America don't you have access to...
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 06:38 PM
    You pretty much nailed my big reasons as well. Especially things like: Chargen: not only fast and easy, but you didn't spend all this time making your PC awesome before you even played a minute of the game. The gameplay is what makes your player awesome, not chargen. It's the whole zero to hero preference. Niche protection, as you mentioned Random magic item tables: What's that? you...
    74 replies | 2716 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 04:19 PM
    Also, back to the OP, I think it's important to know that ST isn't an ad for D&D. The show isn't there to put D&D into any positive light. It's only there to further the plot or to be used as background filler, that's it.
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 03:08 PM
    Everyone is different, I'll give you that. I've long held a saying (even if it's not related to RPGs): "For vets who have seen war, when they return home, they either become more of pacifist liberals, or the become right wingers infatuated with weapons. Centrists are lost in war." That's a bit hyperbolic, but only a bit. With RPGs, I'm not sure if I'd call it therapeutic though. You either...
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 03:47 AM
    I think the key lesson from ST is that never date or want to date Joyce Byers.
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 03:40 AM
    They did have a nod to the Satanic panic, so there was that.
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Friday, 12th July, 2019, 03:13 AM
    They probably all have some serious PTSD and the last thing they want to do is relive those experiences in a game. Itís a reason I avoided modern combat rpgs for years. Just had no appeal whatsoever and would give me a cold empty feeling just thinking about it
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Thursday, 11th July, 2019, 08:34 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    No, not true, because the point both of you appear to be missing is that those things you consider broken, the OSR crowd considers features. OSR folks (like myself) aren't celebrating the brokenness. We celebrate the awesomeness and how those things were great and provided an awesome gaming experience. We've been using 4d6 drop lowest in every edition we played from 1981 to today. So...
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Thursday, 11th July, 2019, 07:49 PM
    I don't think it's the desire on Will's part that's in question. Rather, this was 1985. You couldn't exactly just order a wizard costume and special effects soundtrack via Amazon then. It is small town america. Even if they had a craft store with the proper materials, it would take a long time to get them made. kinda like how last season the Ghost Busters costumes were way out of period, and...
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Thursday, 11th July, 2019, 07:21 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    OK, some clarifications here, although I feel like I'm talking into the void, because some of the things I mentioned as corrections are having people repeat the same error after I've given the correction, so... The first published skill system was 1976 in Dragon Magazine #1 by Wesley Ives. Literally the 1st Dragon magazine had an article on it. However, that system was extremely cumbersome...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Thursday, 11th July, 2019, 06:29 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    Yes. And the 1e PHB implies this as well. Things like how hiding in shadows essentially makes one invisible, even to infravision (if a heat source is nearby). And how move silently makes you totally silent even across squeaky boards. I.e., the thief progression %s are above and beyond what normal PCs could do just by narrating their actions. Any non thief can try to be sneaky, but if there...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Thursday, 11th July, 2019, 04:01 PM
    Yeah, the behavior was exactly the same as my experiences as a teen in the 80s. However, no one I knew wore a costume either. That was the only thing that seemed off.
    49 replies | 2016 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Thursday, 11th July, 2019, 07:20 AM
    There are three ways though: ASI to any ability score, feat, and multiclassing. Itís late, I may be forgetting others. And while yes, most people use an ASI to their primary stat, thatís their choice to do so. The game gives you an option of being better at a pool of skills by applying ASI to any stat. If you dont apply it that way, well, thatís your choice then, but Bob the fighter CAN get...
    224 replies | 5807 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Thursday, 11th July, 2019, 06:02 AM
    I actually suck, but my son is apparently a natural. He was 6 years old in the bathtub. I had the radio playing, and Hellraiser from Ozzy started. I look inside the bathroom and he's standing up, butt nekkid, playing an air guitar and head banging like he had been doing it for years. It was a proud dad moment :D
    224 replies | 5807 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 10th July, 2019, 10:27 PM
    Doesn't matter. In a life or death situation I wouldn't suddenly learn how to play. Don't be silly. (also, that's shifting the goalposts from what the OP is describing. They didn't limit a prof bonus only in life and death situations, but all situations based solely on level)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 10th July, 2019, 10:17 PM
    It's not really a bad example. In my world travels over the decades, I've been to a lot of concerts. From middle of nowhere Weird Al at a fairground concert, to 20,000 filled stadiums, to Rockfest, to 4 day long concerts in Amsterdam. A LOT of concerts. And you know what? I still don't have any clue how to play a guitar.
    224 replies | 5807 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 10th July, 2019, 09:25 PM
    I don't meant to dog pile on the OP, because I think their questions have been soundly answered by many posters. I think it's clear they want a more heroic version of the game than what stands now. But I think there is another thing to think about. On the surface, it's easy enough to just add your prof bonus to all skills if you want, but is there a danger to bounded accuracy by doing so, in...
    224 replies | 5807 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 10th July, 2019, 08:31 PM
    No. No matter what I've accomplished in my life or places I've visited, nothing has helped me get better at X if I wasn't doing X. I'm most certainly wiser than I was 20 years ago, but that doesn't mean I learned extra skills by osmosis. And since PCs get ASIs as they level up, they do get better than level 1 PCs in general. Whatever the player decides to put those ASIs into. *edit* If I...
    224 replies | 5807 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 10th July, 2019, 07:57 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    To add on to this, I saw a definite shift in how players viewed PCs from OSR to post OSR. Back then, your characters were defined by what they did in the adventure. Zero to hero. From 2.5 on, it shifted to "before we even start playing, here's all the awesome powers your PC has." Your character is just as defined by char gen as they were by anything that followed.
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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    Wednesday, 10th July, 2019, 07:55 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    With the way some people are using it, it does. That is, "You didn't really have fun back then. You only thought you did now looking at it through nostalgia. But you couldn't have had fun back then because the game sucks."
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 10th July, 2019, 05:02 PM
    Another "no" vote here. There are really two things here as to why: 1. As others have mentioned, you don't get better at skill X by becoming an expert at skill Z. That makes no sense. 2. People seriously underestimate how hard it is to become proficient at something. It takes more than a few swings to know how to use a sword properly. Everyone seems to look at something and say, "I can...
    224 replies | 5807 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 10th July, 2019, 03:22 AM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    Saying itís only because of nostalgia infers that we never really had fun with them, or if we did, we werenít smart enough to know better. Obviously thatís a flawed argument. There are plenty of strategy games, but lots of people still enjoy chess. And even setting that aside, they act like nostalgia is a bad word. If something makes you feel good when playing it, thatís whatís important.
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
    5 XP
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    Tuesday, 9th July, 2019, 11:38 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    I can't reply to him because I assume he has me on ignore, but I can see your quote. I have a 1968 Camaro. That I restored myself. And he's wrong. Well, his experiences aren't wrong of course, but the implication that an old classic car constantly breaks down is. Every "new" car I've owned frequently needs repair. The more things to go wrong, the more things that do. My Camaro? Going...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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    Tuesday, 9th July, 2019, 09:20 PM
    Sacrosanct replied to OSR Gripes
    This is bad advice if you want to level up. Back then, you didn't get crap for XP for killing monsters. You got XP by getting treasure (and role-playing awards). At low levels, find a way to avoid combat and get the treasure if you wanted to survive and level up. This means being creative. Lead monsters into traps you set up, or lead two monsters to each other and let them fight it out. Get...
    231 replies | 7892 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Tuesday, 9th July, 2019, 04:03 PM
    I mean, I guess parts of that could be subjective, but I think it's also an objective claim to make because we can measure the reactions of players and rules revisions of both. For example, we know they are essentially the same rule system. Did PF have to do a .5 revision shortly after publishing? Does PF have a lot of complaints about CODzilla, and Angel summoner vs BMX biker? PF had the...
    39 replies | 1508 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Tuesday, 9th July, 2019, 03:21 PM
    That last figure is the most important one to me because it's a better figure to analyze. Do 40 million individuals play annually, or are they counting people more than once by counting total convention attendees, etc? Did 9 million different people watch twitch, or did it have 9 million views? I.e., I'd really like to see the methodology. But the last figure, the sales %, that's much more...
    117 replies | 4430 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Tuesday, 9th July, 2019, 03:17 PM
    3e, which brought the game back to popularity, has zero votes. I can only assume it's because PF is basically 3e but better, and PF isn't allowed to be voted on.
    39 replies | 1508 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 8th July, 2019, 08:03 PM
    PF doesnít count. So if you round up, itís 4e. The horror!
    39 replies | 1508 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 8th July, 2019, 07:35 PM
    I suppose I should be glad I didnít mention how we also played gates of firestorm peak (a 2.5e module) with 5e rules . Iíd probably have to kill myself
    39 replies | 1508 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Monday, 8th July, 2019, 07:24 PM
    The implication that i play 3e makes me want to take a shower
    39 replies | 1508 view(s)
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    Monday, 8th July, 2019, 07:20 PM
    I played 5e, but used 1e modules. So...
    39 replies | 1508 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Sunday, 7th July, 2019, 06:13 PM
    I donít have every rule memorized. And I donít have a book handy. Thatís how I would handle it if it came up in a game. If someone pointed out the rule, then Iíd follow that or use that as guidance.
    34 replies | 1119 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Sunday, 7th July, 2019, 05:22 PM
    I wouldnít give disadvantage except for two scenarios: the person being observed is in darkness, or the light source is in between the two parties directly and the observed member is in dim or darkness. The light directly in front of your eyes will adversely affect your night vision (real life version, not game version), so anyone on the other side who is on the fringes will be harder to see....
    34 replies | 1119 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Sunday, 7th July, 2019, 05:19 PM
    This. This is excellent DMing, and a great tool for DMs. DMs do almost all of the narrative descriptions because they are the ones running the game world. But by doing this, it can often inspire players to feel like they are also contributing to the world (without having any mechanical impact to how the DM wants to run their games), and can help players get into the game better, rather than just...
    30 replies | 1437 view(s)
    2 XP
  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Thursday, 4th July, 2019, 02:35 AM
    For all that is holy, please donít start the canít vs donít argument. There is a whole Druid thread about that, and Iím still suffering the SAN loss ;)
    60 replies | 1927 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Thursday, 4th July, 2019, 01:25 AM
    I donít think monks are a variant of fighters. They are completely different. What makes a fighter a fighter? The ability to wear armor and use all weapons. Things monks canít really do. I think monks are unique as much as any other class is.
    60 replies | 1927 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 3rd July, 2019, 07:38 PM
    I meant since it was considered a core class, rather than a special one off, like the cavalier, or archer, or any other class that appeared in a Dragon magazine. I know 2e had barbarians as well, but it still wasn't really core any more than the ninja was.
    60 replies | 1927 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 3rd July, 2019, 07:34 PM
    As an aside, with these recent discussions regarding plural pronouns and singular antecedents, I just wanted to call out your sig. I made a comment a few days ago about when I walked into a bike shop in Portland and one of the employees had their nametag as "they/their". It helped me tremendously. It's reasonable for people to use gender pronouns based on what stereotypical gender a person...
    1012 replies | 71653 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 3rd July, 2019, 07:20 PM
    Interesting results so far, and turns some assumptions upside down. Barbarian has been there since 3e, but the warlord, artificer, and mystic are much higher. It would feel weird for me to be in a room with designers and saying that we'll omit the barbarian class for one of the other three because it feels....wrong somehow. But clearly the fanbase favors different things that "tradition".
    60 replies | 1927 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 3rd July, 2019, 06:03 PM
    well, I already know which one you're not choosing, so...
    60 replies | 1927 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 3rd July, 2019, 06:03 PM
    I have a feeling the core 4 (fighter, cleric, rogue, wizard) will lead the votes, but I'm curious to see how people choose the other 2 options. For me, I chose monk and warlock. Which surprised me, because druid is one of my favorite classes. However, I felt that it was easier to encompass the druid as a nature cleric, than it would be to capture the monk or warlock archetypes.
    60 replies | 1927 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Wednesday, 3rd July, 2019, 05:50 PM
    Prompted from the ranger thread, where it once again entered the discussion about how many of the D&D classes can be redundant with the way skills and feats work. So I figured I'd start a poll. If you had 6 choices (you do in this poll), what would be the six classes you consider core above the others from the 15 options provided?
    60 replies | 1927 view(s)
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  • Sacrosanct's Avatar
    Tuesday, 2nd July, 2019, 08:45 PM
    I meant with DnD of course. Some things are too iconic.
    352 replies | 12280 view(s)
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Thursday, 18th July, 2019


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Monday, 15th July, 2019

  • 09:52 PM - Lanefan mentioned Sacrosanct in post OSR Gripes
    ...f AD&D monsters generally did less damage, or an AD&D party dealt with far fewer monsters in a day, yes, it could be moot.If one assumes that the party in each game loses few enough hit points per day on average that the characters all survive until tomorrow, then the comparison is valid...except: In 5e you can be at 3 h.p. and lose a boatload of 'em, but you'll only go to 0 whereupon you'll fall over and start making death saves and during that time someone can cure you up. What this means is that any attempted comparison of hit point loss ratios between 1e and 5e is liable to fail due to the "missing" lost points in 5e that would otherwise have taken a character below 0. (remember, in 1e death at -10 was a very commonly-used option) This same thing will also skew the h.p. loss ratio in that the 5e party can in theory lose lots more h.p. than they have and yet still survive provided the healer(s) can keep the whack-a-mole cycle going until the foes are vanquished. So, as Sacrosanct does above, all we can truly compare are the recovery rates and ratios - and there's absolutely no denying that 5e is way way faster than 1e here.

Wednesday, 10th July, 2019

  • 12:49 AM - lowkey13 mentioned Sacrosanct in post OSR Gripes
    Oh yeah. Now I remember. (You're not missing anything, @Sacrosanct ... but c'mon, where is the bitchin' Camaro joke?) Anyway, there is something fundamentally odd, to me, with those who argue against OSR and/or retroclones as solely the product of nostalgia as if there is some sort of objective measure of RPGs that they fail. The resurgence of OSR and retroclones was, in part, driven by nostalgia; but not solely. There is something appealing about those particular rulesets, in the same way that an Audi 80 Coupe from 1972 can be appealing today. Even now, I find myself exploring not just OSR and retroclones in my spare time, but other older rulesets. I recently found a copy of the Amber ruleset to mess around with, for example. I still haven't found as good of a Paranoia ruleset as the Second (for my purposes) and I'm not sure how I feel about the new WFRPG. It comes down to preferences; asserting that one game or another is better or people are foolish for liking what they like (yucking on someone else's yum) seems like a particularly poor way o...

Tuesday, 2nd July, 2019

  • 02:42 PM - Aldarc mentioned Sacrosanct in post The perfect D&D edition (according to ENWORLD)
    This do interesting things/differentiate your self in some cool way vesus do things well.. hmmBut this issue could also be feasible if backgrounds, as per Sacrosanct's suggestion (or inclusion in his list), had more umpf. If you knew you were going to become an Eldritch Knight, and you're not a vuman or a high elf (two subraces that can grab cantrips at 1st level), but wanted to reflect that early on, then maybe you could grab a background (e.g., Magical Apprentice) that provided you with a cantrip or two.

Thursday, 27th June, 2019

  • 09:19 PM - Psyzhran2357 mentioned Sacrosanct in post Mearls' "Firing" tweet
    ParanoydStyle Sacrosanct According to which style guide? Because there are a lot of them, and not all of them agree with each other over the use of singular they.

Tuesday, 18th June, 2019

  • 10:40 PM - Blue mentioned Sacrosanct in post Underwater Spellcasting
    Thanks Sacrosanct. While I don't agree with 100% of them a lot of the effects give a good feel. Quite useful, I'm running a two player sea/undersea campaign with a Triton paladin and a sea-shanty human bard. And their pet axolotl named Kracken.

Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 08:59 PM - dave2008 mentioned Sacrosanct in post Favorite version: White Dragon [poll]
    Sacrosanct , as I voted for 1e I feel I have to point out that the image you provided was for the dragonlance variant of the white dragon, not the standard version from the MM. Also, there is almost no difference between the 3e-4e-5e versions. All of the above is strictly regarding the art.

Friday, 7th June, 2019

  • 03:09 AM - Hussar mentioned Sacrosanct in post Let's Talk About THAC0
    This is not true. At least as early as 1980, the character sheets had this info on them. See the examples above. So players knew what AC they were hitting from pretty much the beginning, at the very least when the game started to really grow and take off, and 9 years before THAC0 became a thing If you used the published character sheets, sure. We never did. We always hand wrote our character sheets. No fancy schmancy TSR sheets for us. :D I mean, if everyone already had that number, why did the DM's screen have the matrixes? Seems like a total waste of space. But, hey, you did it your way, I'm just reporting how we did it. /edit to add Funnily enough, Sacrosanct, if you look at the AD&D sheet you posted, you'll see that the player didn't actually fill in the numbers for hitting various AC's. :D

Tuesday, 21st May, 2019

  • 09:59 PM - lowkey13 mentioned Sacrosanct in post Completely Blank Posts?
    So I've seen this twice recently- post that have completely disappeared. No text, no nothing, but the post is still there (in other words, you can see the post, just no text in it). Here are two examples- User acpitz 1 Post #50, today, in thread about gender differences in stats- http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659384-If-there-s-one-game-where-stat-differences-are-justified-what-game-would-that-be/page6&p=7608606&viewfull=1#post7608606 User Sacrosanct In Morrus's poll on favourite edition that's not 5e- http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659419-Favourite-D-amp-D-edition-that%92s-not-5E/page14&p=7608428&viewfull=1#post7608428 (links may not work, due to blocking). Anyway , I know that Sacrosanct is unable to see his own post as well. Maybe a glitch?

Monday, 6th May, 2019

  • 07:28 PM - Draegn mentioned Sacrosanct in post How often does your party use a potion of healing
    any insight as to why? As Sacrosanct posted. The thieves in my game have alienated most of the other characters. They have placed their self interests above the party interests. Greed. There is an extreme amount of nasty stabbings going on in the back alleys of the city in a guild versus guild war. Many fights with the city watch. As well as general traps that sometimes kick off. Before the situation was not so dire for the thieves, however, having told the other two groups of players to (insert colourful metaphors) in their activities to keep the city safe, the thieves are now alone.

Saturday, 23rd March, 2019

  • 08:38 PM - oreofox mentioned Sacrosanct in post F. Wesley Schneider Is D&D's New Editor
    Sacrosanct : When I said "Something I am almost certain was a thing with Dungeon and Dragon magazines", I was referring to the part about "going through the products to see what's great and who made it". Everything submitted to Dragon and Dungeon magazines, I am really certain, had someone reading it (or some of it, depending) before being published into the magazines. The DMsGuild has no such thing. Anyone could copy-paste some garbage from dandwiki and toss it onto the Guild. I highly doubt WotC has anyone doing the same with the things put on the Guild, and as far as I know, that's the only way to "submit" anything to WotC. And with the amount of items published on there in a day, it is really easy to get your's lost in the stream. So how does one exactly get noticed by WotC (or another publisher) from something they put on there? Is it number of sales? There's a large amount of "Pay what you want" on there, and the number of those paying anything (with a lot being 1 penny at a time) instea...

Wednesday, 30th January, 2019


Monday, 28th January, 2019

  • 06:54 PM - DM Dave1 mentioned Sacrosanct in post What is your way for doing Initiative?
    We experimented with the Popcorn Intiative for a few sessions. For now, we just roll, highest goes first, ties between PCs and monsters go to the players (and, in the case of player ties, whichever player I wrote down first or whichever player wants to go first - no one has really cared). I roll a separate initiative for each monster type (the 3 goblins get one roll, the one bugbear gets its roll, and the 5 giant rats get theirs). We might try some modified group initiative (like Sacrosanct and Flexor the Mighty! suggest upthread) but where I roll an average for two monster groups (arbitrarily "fast" and "slow"). All players who beat all the monsters sort out their own order, those in the middle do the same, and those at the bottom of the order do the same. In any case, if you use a method that includes rolling for initiative, I highly recommend having players do an initiative roll before the session starts. As people arrive, they can do their roll. If the DM has done the same with some potential monster encounters, everyone can jump right into the action instead of "pausing" a combat for initiative. When the dust settles and the combat is over, the PCs can roll again... you know, in case another combat pops up.

Saturday, 26th January, 2019

  • 07:15 PM - Draegn mentioned Sacrosanct in post Guns in D&D - A Hot Take
    Sacrosanct It may be helpful to include that many modern bullets are designed to tumble in order to increase physical damage as they travel through a body. This explains the differences in the channel wounds chart.

Thursday, 24th January, 2019

  • 06:43 PM - 77IM mentioned Sacrosanct in post Skill Checks (non time sensitive) homebrew fixes
    I would also posit this discussion is distracted from the real issue by use of the term "house rules." The DM is the arbiter of penalties and DCs, so if Sacrosanct wants to consistently apply a cumulative -2 penalty for retries, that's supported by the 5E rules, and not really a house rule any more than any other consequence for failure that the DM might apply.
  • 06:25 PM - 77IM mentioned Sacrosanct in post Skill Checks (non time sensitive) homebrew fixes
    And what I'm saying is that I don't agree with that statement because success shouldn't be automatic, even if the only cost is time. You guys are talking past each other. If there's literally no cost for failure, then success and failure are indistinguishable: "Sure, it's DC 20. On a success, you do it in a reasonable amount of time. On a failure, you also do it in a reasonable amount of time." iserith seems to be saying, "Don't roll in that scenario; just get on with the game." This is a pretty good way to do things. Sacrosanct seems to be asking, "Rolling can be fun; how can we introduce a cost for failure, outside of combat?" This is also a pretty good way to do things.

Wednesday, 21st November, 2018

  • 04:35 PM - lowkey13 mentioned Sacrosanct in post 5th level characters vs a purple worm
    Now you want to argue some of the facts of the analysis, feel free, but lets turn off the damn sneer. I had to take a break from this, but I understand exactly where @Sacrosanct is coming from. Allow me to explain in several ways. First, that whole 1e/2e thing. Sure, it seems small and petty. And in many ways, it is! But it makes a big difference in play and in an approach to the game. For lack of a better way of putting it, it's like someone making comments about ODD from a BECMI (not just B/X) perspective; yes, a lot of things are the same, or similar, and feel compatible- and most things are compatible! But those small differences, man. And if someone has played 1e almost exclusively, there's that subtle difference- and you know it. You don't make comments like the ones made by the OP. Now, don't get me wrong; ask 5 1e players about something, and you'll get 6 different views. But there's also a shared feel, a shared conversation. A conversation about 1e tends to go something along the lines of, "Man, coming back from the dead was hard." "Yeah, and we used the system shock and con rules." "Yeah, well we made sure that elves couldn't come back, because of s...

Tuesday, 16th October, 2018


Tuesday, 25th September, 2018

  • 09:50 PM - CleverNickName mentioned Sacrosanct in post Survivor Appendix E (5e) Authors- Ursula K. LeGWINS!
    Sacrosanct: People don't always refer to the "damsel in distress" trope as sexist, because it's not always the case. (Nor is it all people, either...some folks spend a lot of time studying this sort of thing.) It's not usually a problem to have a female character need rescue in a story. But if the damsel is not only in distress, but also powerless, and mocked, and stripped of her humanity, etc., purely for the sake of contrast with the main character who conveniently has all of the power and humanity and respect...well, you can see how that's a problem. I agree with you that social change being very slow, and I agree that things can look different when viewed from opposite ends of a timeline. There's a lot of important history between Rapunzel and Princess General Leah, and not all of it is very comfortable for my privileged male brain to learn about. So I agree that some authors wrote in a manner that readers will find offensive today, and I acknowledge they are being criticized for i...
  • 08:56 AM - mortwatcher mentioned Sacrosanct in post Survivor Appendix E (5e) Authors- Ursula K. LeGWINS!
    Alexander, Lloyd 22 Cook, Glen 22 Jemisin, N.K. 18 Kay, Guy Gavriel 19 LeGuin, Ursula 20 Lynch, Scott 20 McKillip, Patricia 21 Peake, Mervyn 18 Pratchett, Terry 18 Sanderson, Brandon 13 Wolfe, Gene 22 As much as I'd like to dispute what Sacrosanct is saying, I cannot. I know about 2 authors by name from this list. But I am terrible at remembering names. I know I read Conan when I was younger, but couldn't tell you who wrote it from memory (it was a while ago). It's more likely that I can tell you how the cover of the book looked like than who wrote it. :)

Monday, 24th September, 2018



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Thursday, 18th July, 2019

  • 07:50 PM - Xaelvaen quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    Hmmm....discussion? I'm actually pretty inclined to agree, in the limited comparisons I can make. I have not played anything prior to 2e, being that it was when I started playing, but comparing it to 3/4/5 - I'm definitely going to agree. Thanks to recommendations from these boards, I've recently bought the 1e material to go back in time, so to speak, and give it a whirl. So, I'll explain my experiences - comparisons: When I played 2e in the beginning (and when I even go back to it now) the groups tended to never make it past level 7 or so - the most grueling levels, in all honesty, with those terribly high-starting saves. Not to mention the 'cliche' (that is incredibly true) of cats being able to one-shot Wizards. So the fact we never really saw anything double digit matters, to my relative perception. With 3E, we actually made it to level 20 in the very first campaign in which I participated. This was with the exact same DM, so style has little relevance. He always made up his own adv...
  • 06:26 PM - Tony Vargas quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    At 4th level, the fighter saved on an 8 in 3e. On a 14 in AD&D. A 10th level fighter in AD&D needed a 9 to pass. It looks like typical DCs for monsters in the MM have DCs around 21 for CR10 creatures. A 10th level fighter, not counting choosing feats to improve save chances, would have around a +11 bonus.That proves what I said. The AD&D fighter's save improved from needing a natural 14, to needing a natural 9 - and that's vs anything trying to petrify or polymorph him, from a cockatrice to a medusa to a 19th level Lich. He got /much/ better. Your 18 CON 3e fighter goes from needing an 8 at 4th level vs a 4th level DC, to needing a natural 10, vs a 10th level DC. He got /worse/. And, that's his *GOOD* save, at 10th, he might well face a similar DC 21 save against which his bonus could be as low as +2 - maybe +4 or 6 with feat, decent stat, and/or protection item, that's not just worse than he had it at 4th level, that's worse than the 1e fighter had it at 4th level! You claimed that the...
  • 05:24 PM - Tony Vargas quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    Save or Die: There were SoD effects in 3eThank you. It'd be awesome if you'd stop saying there weren't, going forward. If what you mean is "at low level, 1e fighters had crap saving throws, and at the highest levels had the best saving throws in the game and could expect enough bonuses from randomly generated magic items to fail only on a natural 1, even before name level, PCs casually drinking poison for the flavor because it was essentially harmless was a running gag," just say that. However, fort saves were easier to make in 3e compared to AD&D at the typical levels PCs faced them. In 3e, you added your Con modifier to your fort save, and level progression bonuses outstripped the roll needed in AD&D.Yes, you added your CON bonus, no the progression did not outstrip the 1e save matrix, because DCs rose continually through your career, while save penalties even at high level, were very rare in 1e. A 3e 'good' save was lucky to tread water, if the DCs you faced were being optimized ...
  • 03:43 PM - dnd4vr quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    But the above were all subjective preferences, not RAW. I have to not consider subjectiveness when doing a fair analysis. True enough. In retrospect, we never played 2E RAW but as you suggest, a blend of 1E/2E really. Still, adding elements of 2E as you discuss, such as more powerful dragons and rules for massive damage, never increased lethality, only changed how the game was played. Even playing characters with 3d6 in order (I recall a 2E Priest I had named Benson Miller, all stats 9-12 with a 12 Wisdom) only changed how the game was played. But this is true in many cases, such as if you have fewer hit points you play more cautiously. If you played in the exact same style without regard for the changes in rules from 1E to 2E, you probably had some surprises waiting for you! Once you compensated for those changes, the game in actual play resulted in less character deaths IME.
  • 01:25 PM - Maxperson quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    Is surprised me too when I double checked. But yes, Method I in 1e was 4d6 drop lowest. In 2e, Method I went back to 3d6 in order. No. That's incorrect. The PHB directs you to the DMG which says this... "While it is possible to generate some fairly playable characters by rolling 3d6, there is often an extended period of attempts at finding a suitable one due to quirks of the dice. Furthermore, these rather marginal characters tend to have short life expectancy - which tends to discourage new players, as does having to make do with some character of a race and/or class which he or she really can't or won't identify with. Character generation, then, is a serious matter, and it is recommended that the following systems be used. Four alternatives are offered for player characters:" So we see that 3d6 is the default and the four alternatives that immediately follow include alternative method I, which is 4d6 drop the lowest.
  • 11:36 AM - Fanaelialae quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    3e is kinda tricky, because by RAW, you can have a character that mops the floor with enemies with several builds. Hardly deadly to the PCs. Then factor in you got rid of save or die, level drains, instant death at X amount of points in a single attack, and then youíre hard pressed to convince that 3e is more lethal than previous editions. In TSR D&D, a dragons breath weapon would kill most of the classes even if they made saving throws straight up You could build some fairly insane characters in 2e as well, depending on the material you were including. (AFAIK, most of the uber builds in 3.x weren't straight from the PHB, and if you're going to include official supplements from one edition, you ought to include the them for the other.) Just off the top of my head, 2e had: -Kits (many of which had huge benefits for negligible drawbacks) -The Complete X Handbooks (particularly Complete Humanoids, as you could play as potent monsters such as Firbolgs and Pixies) -Skills and Powers (which a...
  • 11:31 AM - Hussar quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    I'm still curious how you're figuring out a fighter does 50 points of damage with no strength bonus. Weapon specialization in 2e gives you a +1 to hit and +2 damage, and an extra attack on the 2nd, 4th, and subsequent even rounds. If you choose to have 2 weapons like you're saying, you suffer a -2 penalty to your primary weapon, and -4 penalty to your off hand weapon. Certainly you should account for that? Speaking of accounting for things, you're not accounting for save or die in TSR D&D. I see your test against orcs and raise you one against a venomous creature (like a snake, spider, etc). How many 3rd-5th editions fighters would fall to those? Pretty much none. How many TSR edition era ones would fall, even at higher level fighters? Quite a few. What makes a game lethal is more than just how many hp can be soaked up. Ok, let's use Snakes. Medium viper in 3e deals d6/d6 Con damage DC Fort 11. Fail the save and you could lose up to 12 con from each bite. You die at 0 con. That...
  • 07:56 AM - Tony Vargas quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    3e is kinda tricky, because by RAW, you can have a character that mops the floor with enemies with several builds And and, monsters could pull the same tricks. ... got rid of save or die, level drains, instant death 3e had SoDs, and vs bad saves that only got worse relative to rising (let alone optimized) DCs, and negative levels worked a little differently, mechanically, but we're still pretty awful.
  • 07:45 AM - Zardnaar quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    I'm still curious how you're figuring out a fighter does 50 points of damage with no strength bonus. Weapon specialization in 2e gives you a +1 to hit and +2 damage, and an extra attack on the 2nd, 4th, and subsequent even rounds. If you choose to have 2 weapons like you're saying, you suffer a -2 penalty to your primary weapon, and -4 penalty to your off hand weapon. Certainly you should account for that? Speaking of accounting for things, you're not accounting for save or die in TSR D&D. I see your test against orcs and raise you one against a venomous creature (like a snake, spider, etc). How many 3rd-5th editions fighters would fall to those? Pretty much none. How many TSR edition era ones would fall, even at higher level fighters? Quite a few. What makes a game lethal is more than just how many hp can be soaked up. Weapon specialization and increased weapon dice. 1d12+2 and 1d8+2. Max damage 24 Round two. Extra attack with longsword. 1d12+2 max damage 38 a round. Tw...
  • 03:13 AM - Seramus quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    Wait, what? It looks like lowkey13 blocked me. I donít mind if people put others on ignore for whatever reason, but this strikes me odd because over the past 10 years, weíve agreed and got along on 99% of our posts. Weíre both 1e fans as our favorite edition. I donít know if there is something going on outside of here that caused him to be so aggressive in his response, but if there is, I sincerely hope he gets resolution. Just odd to have someone youíve agreed with and got along with for so many years to suddenly block you because you donít agree that with confirmation bias of 1e. A confirmation bias I shared myself until I looked at the actual rules.If he blocked you, doesnít that mean by default that your account auto-blocks him? And since you are the OP, he can no longer get into the thread? Which means none of us can reply to him and get a response in this discussion. Huh. I blame too many gnome paladins in his lawn.

Wednesday, 17th July, 2019

  • 10:02 PM - lowkey13 quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    No, it's not. As has been pointed out, 4d6 drop lowest was Method I in 1e; in 2e, it was method V. Method I in 2e was 3d6 in order. The 1e PHB didn't default to OD&D, but referenced the DMG: Each ability score is determined by random number generation. The referee has several methods of how this random number generation should be accomplished suggested to him or her in the DUNGEON MASTERS GUIDE. The Dungeon Master will inform you as to which method you may use to determine your character's abilities. The principal abilities are detailed as follows: And in the DMG says that 3d6 is a bad way to go, so use Method I instead (4d6 drop lowest). *sigh* When was the PHB published? When was the DMG published? Now, here's what I wrote- "When 1e was released with the PHB, it defaulted to OD&D state generation since the DMG wasn't out." Do you understand what I wrote now? Good. The other part you wrote is incorrect as well- it did not say to use method 1, and I quoted the exact part stating ther...
  • 09:11 PM - lowkey13 quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    If it's weird, it's because it's not true ;) That's the same assumption I had. But when I actually looked at the rules (see above), it seems clear that 2e is actually the most lethal. It doesn't jive with my biases, but there you go. Can't argue with the facts. Yeah, but no. I don't particularly feel like going through your methodology, but I find most of it suspect and/or incorrect. For example- 1e and 2e both used the same state generation. When 1e was released with the PHB, it defaulted to OD&D state generation since the DMG wasn't out. When the DMG was released, 3d6 was listed as the default with four alternative methods. Here's the pull quote- "Four alternatives {to 3d6 in order} areoffered for player characters:" 4d6k1 (Method 1) wasn't the default, either- just the first of the four alternatives listed. It's the same with 2e. Second, as we just discussed, you couldn't just "go to -10hp before dying." Instead, if you happened to have something that knocked you down to EXACTLY 0 hp...
  • 08:16 PM - Tony Vargas quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    as we all can agree that 3e, 4e, and 5e rules are not as lethal as previous editions (removal of save or die, increasing ability scores, powers gained at almost every level, assumption of increased magic items, etc)Yeah, I've never known us all to agree. ;) 3e, for instance, was plenty deadly, it went all-in on giving monsters the same options as PCs, so much of the assumed advantages the system quietly gave PCs in prior editions quietly vanished - also 3e retained SoDs, /and/ saves didn't keep up with DCs, in contrast to prior eds where saves genuinely improved with level. However, when looking at the rules, it seems 2e just might actually be the most lethal edition.I'd tend to agree. 2e really didn't change the PC side of the equation too much from late 1e. But, it really goosed a lot of monsters, giving them more hps, bigger damage, and the like. I'm not sure, but I think save penalties may have become more common, too. So...when ranking the editions by lethality, it goes 2e>B/X>O...
  • 07:31 PM - lowkey13 quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    I forgot to respond to this. Then your DM was being unfair to you ;) (or more likely they weren't aware of the actual rule). It's actually a core rule in 1e that you fall unconscious at 0 hp, then begin to bleed out to -10. If you die at 0 hp, that's not in alignment with the rules (even if it's the most common way people played. We certainly played like that). That is not the rule. It is the zero hit point rule. Here, let me show you- "When any creature is brought to 0 hit points (optionally as low as -3 hit points if from the same blow which brought the total to 0), it is unconscious. In each of the next succeeding rounds 1 additional (negative) point will be lost until -10 is reached and the creature dies." This was a special rule for what happens if you happened to be knocked down to EXACTLY zero hit points. Now, this might occasionally happen (especially if you add in the optional -3 rider) but this is not the same as the modern interpretation of "blows that reduce you to below 0 = 0...
  • 07:07 PM - Umbran quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    Hmmm....discussion? I think 3e may be the most deadly edition. I mean, in terms of, say, if it fell on you from out of a tree, the sheer mass of the published materials would crush you. 2e had a lot too, but much of it was softcover, which hurts less.
  • 06:36 PM - the Jester quoted Sacrosanct in post 2e, the most lethal edition?
    Whenever the lethality of editions are discussed, typically it's usually OD&D is the most, then AD&D 1e, then B/X, then 2e, then 3e, then 5e, then 4e. That seems to be the most common breakdown people do when rating the editions (it's how I would have done it by memory). However, when looking at the rules, it seems 2e just might actually be the most lethal edition. (Yes, I know any edition can be lethal depending on the DM, but this is factoring RAW, all else being equal). Interesting assertion! Let's see... OD&D: All characters had 1d6 hp (fighting men got a bonus at varying levels), and all weapons did 1d6 damage. Abilities were generated by rolling 3d6 in order. A typical monster level 1 PCs faced were orcs (AC 6, 1d6 damage, 1d6 hp). The ancient red dragon had AC 2 and 66 hit points breath weapon was current hp. You died at 0 hp. B/X: Hit die varied from 1d4 to 1d8, depending on race/class. bonus to hp only came from a Con bonus. All weapons did 1d6 damage (variable damage w...
  • 08:09 AM - Lanefan quoted Sacrosanct in post OSR Gripes
    Once again, you are being disingenuous in your selection. I said a typical creature a level 1 PC would face. In 5e, they bumped the orc up significantly. Level one PCs would not typically fight a group of orcs on a one to one basis. Youíre comparing apples to oranges. Tony Vargas , to compare apples to apples, what happens if you put up your happy little 1st-level Fighter against its clone (i.e. another Fighter-1 with all numbers exactly the same) in each edition?

Tuesday, 16th July, 2019

  • 08:18 PM - Umbran quoted Sacrosanct in post OSR Gripes
    I know I shouldn't reply again and against my better judgement... Yes, well, then you really should have paid attention to your better judgement. Let me help you: Don't post again in this thread. Everyone else - treat each other with respect. If you can't, it is time to take a break.
  • 05:02 PM - Tony Vargas quoted Sacrosanct in post OSR Gripes
    Which makes the 5e orc twice as powerful compared to a level 1 5e PC than a 1e orc is to a 1e PC. As I said, apples to oranges.There was no CR in 1e. You could totally face orcs (or heck, gnolls, zombies, an ogre, etc) at 1st level. ('Face' not necessarily to be taken literally.) Part of the appeal, I should think. (Of course, CR /guidelines/ don't prevent you from facing an Ogre - or disinterested dragon - at first level, they just wave a red flag at the idea.) So it's an Orcs to Orcs comparison. Orcs just have bigger hp/damage numbers in 5e, like most every monster, just like 5e PCs have more healing to patch themselves up after fighting 'em. But, hey, whatever, Kobolds (CR 1/8 lowly enough for you?): 1e: 1/2 HD, 1-4 hps, AC 7, hit the frontliner on 18 for 1-4(2.5) damage (0.375 DPR, no crits, officially) 5e: 5hps, AC 12 (yeesh), +4 to hit, so tag the frontliner on a 14, for 4(1d4+2) damage (1.4 DPR, 1.6 including crits). But what's the point. You're arguing that AD&D re...
  • 04:29 AM - Tony Vargas quoted Sacrosanct in post OSR Gripes
    I was more than half expecting I'd made some dumb math or table lookup error. ::shrug:: I said a typical creature a level 1 PC would face. CR: 1/2. the book itself tells you that if you want a more OSR style of recovery, to use the optimal rules where recovery is way slowed down. I already mentioned that, yes. You want slower pacing, it's readily doable, no heavy rules-rewriting called for.


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Retro Character Sheet
For those truly wanting a "basic" style of play. Inspired by Moldvay's B/X sheet. Only the basics folks!
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