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    Yesterday, 05:22 PM
    Alchemy Jug 26 Bag of Holding 27 Bag of Tricks 27 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 10 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 14-2=12 Broom of Flying 21+1=22 Carpet of Flying 26 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 14 Chime of Opening 2
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:06 PM
    Alchemy Jug 26 Bag of Holding 27 Bag of Tricks 27 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 10 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 14 Broom of Flying 21 Carpet of Flying 26 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 14 Chime of Opening 4 Crystal Ball 16
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  • OB1's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 05:41 PM
    Alchemy Jug 27 Bag of Holding 24 Bag of Tricks 24 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 14-2=12 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 14 Broom of Flying 19+1=20 Carpet of Flying 26 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 14 Chime of Opening 10 Crystal Ball 18
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 02:12 PM
    Okay. Thanks for the update!
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    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 02:07 PM
    Are there any plans to address them?
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    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 02:02 PM
    Alchemy Jug 27 Bag of Holding 27 Bag of Tricks 22 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 14 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 14 Broom of Flying 20 Carpet of Flying 26 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 14 Chime of Opening 12 Crystal Ball 18
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 07:43 AM
    I hear licking exploding toads can get you there, too.
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  • OB1's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 03:02 PM
    Alchemy Jug 25 Bag of Beans 10 Bag of Holding 24 Bag of Tricks 23 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 14 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 14 Broom of Flying 21+1=22 Carpet of Flying 25 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 16 -2=14 Chime of Opening 12
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 02:24 PM
    Alchemy Jug 25 Bag of Beans 9 Bag of Holding 26 Bag of Tricks 23 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 14 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 14 Broom of Flying 20 Carpet of Flying 25 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 16 Chime of Opening 14
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 02:21 PM
    Bad analogy. This thread debate using basketball would be... What's more important in playing basketball, offense, defense, shooting or dribbling? Theatrics in most sports is nearly non-existent. It shows up a little bit after touchdowns, goals and such, but for most of the game it's not there. If you wanted to use a "sport" where theatrics and the sport might be on equal ground, go with...
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 01:18 PM
    It wouldn't be charisma if it didn't work. ;) Speaking of charisma. In my games I make note of the charisma of the PCs. Even if the most eloquent player gives me an amazing speech, if his PC has a charisma of 4 I'm going to filter that speech though his charisma and the NPCs will hear it different. Conversely, a stammering and stuttering player whose PC is a charisma 20 paladin, will have...
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  • OB1's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 06:21 PM
    Alchemy Jug 26 Bag of Beans 14 Bag of Holding 21 Bag of Tricks 25 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 14 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 16-2=14 Broom of Flying 21+1=22 Candle of Invocation 4 Carpet of Flying 24 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 16
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    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 02:17 PM
    Alchemy Jug 26 Bag of Beans 11 Bag of Holding 25 Bag of Tricks 25 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 16 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 16 Broom of Flying 20 Candle of Invocation 4 Carpet of Flying 24 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 18
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 02:10 PM
    No. A lot of people with great ideas have been ignored by people, because the one with the idea didn't say it right. A lot of horrors have happened, because someone with a bad idea that people generally wouldn't listen to, were sold on it by someone saying it the right way. How you say something is very often more important than what you are saying.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 02:06 PM
    I would argue that those are just unorthodox methods of narration. They're still communicating ideas. Synonyms of narration include portrayal and sketch. I would have liked to have seen that.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Wednesday, 12th June, 2019, 01:41 PM
    There isn't for me since it's all pretend. There is for the NPCs, though. If the PCs torture a thief to get information and it gets out, they could end up imprisoned. Torture is generally going to be illegal unless the government is doing it, and even then not all governments do it. The PCs reputation will suffer in any case as the locals view them as bad men. Whether the PCs engage in...
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  • OB1's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 05:43 PM
    Alchemy Jug 26 Bag of Beans 11 Bag of Holding 26 Bag of Tricks 25 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 18-2=16 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 18 Broom of Flying 18+1=19 Candle of Invocation 7 Carpet of Flying 23 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 18
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 02:02 PM
    I am at peace. For now I have seen everything.
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    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 01:19 PM
    Desert of Desolation - 20 Aisle of Dread - 0 - Dread is dead.
    208 replies | 7363 view(s)
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 01:18 PM
    Alchemy Jug 27 Bag of Beans 10 Bag of Holding 27 Bag of Tricks 25 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 18 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 18 Broom of Flying 19 Candle of Invocation 9 Carpet of Flying 23 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 18
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 03:26 AM
    Are the blocking/blocked bugs fixed with this change?
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Tuesday, 11th June, 2019, 02:57 AM
    My dad's argument will totally rob your dad's argument. He starts off with a Masked-man Fallacy. Then he slides into a Broken Window Fallacy. And then, oh God, he did it again. He got distracted by an If-by Whisky. I guess I'll bail him out in the morning.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 01:46 PM
    Less than 1 spell per spell level over bards, and half that over clerics and druids is hardly what I would call "quite a bit." Then 90% of the time there should be no delay. Most of the remaining 10% should also be no delay as they should know their spells and be thinking about what to switch out while watches are being taken and other things being described. The length of time it takes...
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 01:28 PM
    Desert of Desolation - 22 Isle of Dread - 6 Castle Amber (Chateau d'Amberville) - 3
    208 replies | 7363 view(s)
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 01:27 PM
    Alchemy Jug 26 Bag of Beans 14 Bag of Holding 28 Bag of Tricks 26 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 18 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 18 Broom of Flying 20 Candle of Invocation 15 Carpet of Flying 22 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 18
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 01:23 PM
    Monster X
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  • OB1's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 01:04 PM
    Alchemy Jug 26 Bag of Beans 14 Bag of Holding 30 Bag of Tricks 26 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 18 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 20-2=18 Broom of Flying 19+1=20 Candle of Invocation 15 Carpet of Flying 22 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 18
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 04:47 AM
    I'm okay with not knowing what a monster is if my PC also doesn't know. However, I wouldn't accept the above. I'd ask you to describe to me what it looked like. What a strange creature looks like is every bit as important to me as what it's doing, even when what it's doing is charging me. Does it have 2 arms? 4 arms? Claws? Hands? Does it have a mouth full of fangs or a mouth full of...
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 02:52 AM
    No. I'm done. If he doesn't get it, he doesn't get i.
    32 replies | 665 view(s)
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 01:26 AM
    When the appropriate type of spell hits a PC or NPC, I will determine a save DC for the items in question and roll to see which ones catch fire and are destroyed, and which are fine. If the item in question is a container, anything inside is safe if the container saves. The DC will depend on the power of the spell in question and/or the power of the being using it. An Efreeti for example will...
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 01:21 AM
    Auto mechanics. If my game mechanics start talking, I'm checking myself into a 72 hour hold.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 01:07 AM
    Hrm. I thought I started the mechanics thing with two mechanics talking to one another. :confused:
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 12:39 AM
    The scenario was a conversation between two mechanics, though.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 12:11 AM
    And I'll reiterate, "especially" just creates a subgroup of literature that is more preferred. It does not invalidate all other literature, or render it valueless.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 12:08 AM
    The attack is just as lethal to the guy with 150 as it is to the guy with 10. The guy with 150 just has a lot of skill and luck and got the heck out of the way of enough of it that a worst, it lit some of his stuff on fire.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 09:50 PM
    Wood and clothing appear on lists of flammable items. I said that damage is not abstract like hit points. You can't cast a fireball and do ice damage. You can't cast a fireball and do luck damage. You can't cast a fireball and to divine providence damage. Unless you can change the energy type, it always does fire damage. Hit points on the other hand can be whatever you need them to be.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 09:32 PM
    I am not using the first definition. I quoted the Oxford definition, which matches the first one. I also looked at multiple dictionaries. You shouldn't assume. The first definition is from the Oxford dictionary. https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/literary There is also, https://www.dictionary.com/browse/literary "1. pertaining to or of the nature of books and writings,...
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 06:12 PM
    I don't have to. It's literally THE definition. If you have an issue with it, argue the case with those who defined it. It absolutely does have a point. Once people can accept the facts and understand that anything written is literary, the question stops being, "Is this literary" and becomes, "What level of literary is preferred?" or perhaps, "What is the average level of literary...
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 05:42 PM
    So now we're back to everything, including high quality literary language, being conversational English. Most of us gamers know and understand high quality literary language, so it would be conversational to us.
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 05:09 PM
    In the context that you used it, it does. "They are speaking conversational English, but they aren't" is what it amounted to.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 05:01 PM
    Why does it have to be one or the other? With highly limited prep time I work on a few general ideas to present, so content. I can improv the descriptions and encounter details as I go. If I couldn't improv as well as I do, I'd call off the game for that week so I could prep both and we'd play board games. Terraforming Mars, Scythe, Clank and Tyrants of the Underdark are our current...
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 04:18 PM
    I wouldn't call Corwin, Bleys and Benedict sappy. :D
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 04:17 PM
    Desert of Desolation - 27 Isle of Dread - 12 Castle Amber (Chateau d'Amberville) - 6
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 04:16 PM
    Alchemy Jug 25 Bag of Beans 20​ - Not always useful, but interesting. Bag of Holding 27 - Useful, but boring. Bag of Tricks 25 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 18 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 20 Broom of Flying 21 Candle of Invocation 14 Carpet of Flying 22 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 18
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 04:06 PM
    It really doesn't matter. The higher the temperature, the shorter the duration required to set things on fire. Again, this is a function of hit points, not damage. Hit points are abstract, not damage. 42 points of fire is 42 points of fire. No. Just the hit points are abstract, not the damage. Fireballs do fire damage. The don't do luck damage. They don't do skill damage. ...
    32 replies | 665 view(s)
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 03:56 PM
    I'm sorry I did that, but... You look good, but... You did a great job, but... When you add in the "but," you are invalidating what came before by carving out an exception to explain why what came before is wrong.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 03:32 PM
    Literary only doesn't apply if you incorrectly believe that only high quality literary works are literary. If you believe that all things written are literary(the definition), then any time you are choosing these more evocative words to use over those words, you are moving up the literary scale. Using the named wood and describing briefly the carving, was more evocative than #1. Even though...
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 03:26 PM
    But neither are those mechanics speaking conversational English, which is what Bedrockgames says he wants.
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  • OB1's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 02:40 PM
    Alchemy Jug 25 Bag of Beans 19 Bag of Holding 28 Bag of Tricks 25 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 18 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 20 Broom of Flying 21 Candle of Invocation 16 Carpet of Flying 20+1=21 Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 20-2=18
    146 replies | 2582 view(s)
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 07:43 AM
    The triggers are both the spell and the flammable property, not just the flammable property. A flammable object all by itself doesn't burst into flame. The fire spell hitting an object that is not flammable does not ignite it on fire. It requires both triggers to be present. The match test might seem reasonable to you, but it's far too unrealistic and unreasonable for me. A match pales...
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 05:59 AM
    For descriptiveness, I think I probably fall in-between you and Imaro/Hussar. That just puts you and your colleagues beyond the realm of everyday conversational English, though. The average American reads at the 7th/8th grade level. For the most part, they aren't going to speak much better than they can read.
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 05:28 AM
    Hey, if all it takes to be using conversational English is to use it in a conversation, then even the most high quality literary language used in an RPG counts as conversational. It's pretty well understood that when people here have been discussing conversational English, they mean using the simple words and not the ones that fall outside of normal, everyday conversation.
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 05:23 AM
    I'm not talking in absolutes. However, in 35+ years of gaming with more than 100 different people, I can't remember anyone who would rather hear, "There's a long, thick, hard, round, six foot, brown wooden staff on the ground." than "There's an intricately carved feywood staff on the ground." I imagine you aren't the only one, but I'm pretty confident that you are in a small minority of people...
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 02:05 AM
    Yeah. They seem to have fixed the exp bug and quoting bug. I'm not positive about the edit bug since I haven't edited a post yet, but I imagine that one is fixed, too.
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 02:03 AM
    It's not about the length or the meta. It's about the language. The meta COULD come into play, but if it does, it's in addition to the interest generated by the language. Here. Description #1. There's a long, thick, hard, round, six foot, brown wooden staff on the ground. Description #2. There's an intricately carved feywood staff on the ground. #1 is both accurate and longer than...
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 01:26 AM
    The description alters interest in many, if not most people. I've seen a lot of people who will ignore a staff on the ground, fewer who will ignore description #2, and very, very few who will ignore one described with #3 or 4.
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 01:24 AM
    That seems reasonable. For myself, I'd probably give it a chance to catch fire at 25-49% and guarantee it at 50%
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    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 01:02 AM
    This makes total sense if the amount of initial fire damage is the equivalent of a match. If it's doing say 12 points of fire damage to the target, though, it's a hell of a lot hotter than a match and will catch correspondingly more items on fire in that instant.
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 11:24 PM
    So opinions aren't something sacred. You can be wrong with one. For example, if you felt that the sun was a cold, dark ball of ice. You are free to feel that the distinction isn't that meaningful, but that won't make me pedantic To the example. Me: "Excuse me, but would you please tell me where the elevator is?" You: "Follow those lemmings." Me: ::begins following the lemmings,...
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 10:35 PM
    It's neither pedantic, nor does it answer the question, except that ANY answer is technically an answer. "Where are the elevators?" - "Goonygoogoo!" It's an answer. The problem is that the OP doesn't get to decide what is literary quality for anyone but himself. Some people will have a low bar, others middle, and yet others high. That's the problem with using terms like literary...
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 07:39 PM
    So is Alcatraz, but like your example it doesn't answer the question where they are. It could be an answer to how do you get to the elevator, though. For example, if I ask you where Los Angeles is, telling me to join the wagon train going west does not tell me where Los Angeles is. Telling me to get on that airplane over there does not tell me where Los Angeles is. I didn't ask you how to get...
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 07:15 PM
    This is one of those rulings over rules moments. You're going to have to look at the situation. Is it a large ball of thin, super dry paper? It takes a lot of damage really fast. Is it a rock covered in some dry moss? It takes only a little and then goes out. Are you in a desert? A swamp? Circumstances will change how this should play out.
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 07:06 PM
    The second isn't a literary answer to the question, which is probably why it does almost nothing for the person asking where the elevators are. Perhaps if you come up with an example that has both the increased literary quality AND answers the question, we can figure out which is better, worse, or whatever. Until then, these examples don't help us with this discussion. I think it's...
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 06:54 PM
    Desert of Desolation - 29 Isle of Dread - 17 Castle Amber (Chateau d'Amberville) - 7
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 04:51 PM
    Strange. For me it acted like the edit bug.
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 04:06 PM
    I can confirm that it works to quote, but there is still a bug with it. It condenses the quote into paragraph form when it's not supposed to be. For example... First 1 Second 2 Third 3 Fourth 4 Fifth 5 Gets turned into...
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 03:59 PM
    Alchemy Jug 23Apparatus of Kwalish 0 - Apparatus of Kwalsquish!Bag of Beans 23Bag of Holding 26Bag of Tricks 24Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 18Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 20Broom of Flying 23Candle of Invocation 17Carpet of Flying 19Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 20Chime of Opening 20Crystal Ball 18Crystal Ball of Mind Reading 14Crystal Ball of Telepathy 20Crystal Ball of...
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 06:50 AM
    No, but "any reviewer" is just giving an opinion on what is quality literary work, not any sort of fact. One reviewer might not view anything less than the quality of Shakespeare as quality. Another might view Cat in the Hat as quality literature. A third might do the same with Mad Magazine. It's also subjective. Sure, but in the end it's just your opinion on what is quality...
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 06:45 AM
    We never had issues with THAC0 in any of our 2e games over the years. The math was just too simple to do for us to have an issue with it.
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 05:35 AM
    Way to deliberately ignore the important part of my post. You know, in your first response to me it actually sounded as if you might debate this one in good faith. I should have known better.
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    Saturday, 8th June, 2019, 04:35 AM
    This is what he said. "Somewhat contra Lanefan, it often doesn't matter at all if the players think different things about the fiction." Where in there does it specify non-key details? It doesn't. He was very general with his claim.
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    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 10:09 PM
    Key detail. Insufficient detail. It's the same thing. Lacking a key detail is insufficient. It listed examples of unnecessary specifics, but it made the claim that players imaging different things is often not an issue. Then it gave limited examples where it wasn't an issue. I was countering by saying that it often is an issue. And then I gave limited examples where it was an issue. ...
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    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 05:57 PM
    If I ask you to prove something and you do, then I dismiss it and ask you to prove something further instead, I have moved the goalposts. If you make a statement and I disagree with it, saying, "No, literary is this," no goalposts have been moved. We don't have to agree with pemerton's assertion and are not forced to limit our discussion to what he presumes to be true. No goalposts have been...
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    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 05:50 PM
    So, fallacies don't automatically lead to false conclusions. The logic of a statement can be incredibly unsound without the conclusion being false. I also haven't been using multiple meanings of literary. You have different meanings for the words that I'm using, not me. You don't get to apply your personal preferred meanings to me, and then declare that I'm switching things around. Other...
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    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 05:26 PM
    Equivocation requires intent. It's an attempt to conceal the truth, which requires the intent to conceal the truth, or to avoid committing, which requires the intent to avoid committing. There's no way around it. A wrong conclusion is just a wrong conclusion without other intent to change things.
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    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 05:10 PM
    Um. That makes no sense as a response to what I said. Perhaps you should re-read my post, your response, or both. Given that equivocation relies purely on intent and he cannot determine my intent, he cannot have demonstrated any such thing. I know my intent, and it's a 100% certain fact that no equivocation has been done by me in this thread. All such accusations are objectively...
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    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 05:06 PM
    The errors were from lack of sufficient detail. As for the rocks, the could very well have mattered. They would be a hazard to move quickly over or fight in. It was a fairly involved battle scene. He thought I understood that they were close enough to attack me. I didn't. These things happen in theater of the mind. The group I play with now uses minis and dry erase maps to...
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 04:31 PM
    And very often it does matter. There was a time when playing 2e theater of the mind that we had a combat on a bridge. The DM described the scene and our positions. I thought I was farther away from the creatures than I was, and they were engaged with some party members. I started to cast a long spell, figuring that at the distance I was at I was okay. The DM had a different picture in mind...
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 04:19 PM
    Soooo, the ebb and flow of conversation isn't "moving the goalposts." I haven't, either, but that doesn't prevent you and others here of falsely accusing me of equivocation. Aaaaaand, not. I also have not used ambiguous language so as to conceal the truth or avoid committing. Keep up the talking point, though. If you use it enough, you might just get someone to believe your...
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 03:18 PM
    I was going to post that I can't give exp, but you beat me to it. I'd give you exp for beating me to it, but I can't! You'd probably laugh at me for this post, but you can't! Ha! :lol:
    76 replies | 3224 view(s)
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 03:16 PM
    So where is the line you can point to and say, "This is literary quality, but that isn't?" As far as I can tell, there isn't one, which makes "literary quality" something that exists in the eye of the beholder, which could include just about anything written.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 03:05 PM
    So, conversations evolve and at 1100+ posts in, it has shifted a bit. Trying to pin every response back to the OP to avoid giving a real response is the equivocation you have been falsely accusing me of.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 03:00 PM
    I would be unable to get a single drop of immersion if I had to Q&A every or almost every description than comes along.
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 02:52 PM
    Is there a way to keep it from changing back to https?
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 02:45 PM
    Thanks!!Edit: So apparently I can post, but I still can't give exp.
    146 replies | 2582 view(s)
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 02:32 PM
    Alchemy Jug 22Apparatus of Kwalish 11Bag of Beans 21Bag of Devouring 8Bag of Holding 26Bag of Tricks 21Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 18Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 20Broom of Flying 22Candle of Invocation 17Carpet of Flying 19Censer of Controlling Air Elementals 20Chime of Opening 19Crystal Ball 20Crystal Ball of Mind Reading 16Crystal Ball of Telepathy 20Crystal Ball of True...
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  • OB1's Avatar
    Thursday, 6th June, 2019, 03:25 PM
    Alchemy Jug 20 Apparatus of Kwalish 21 Bag of Beans 20 Bag of Devouring 20 Bag of Holding 20 Bag of Tricks 20 Bowl of Commanding Water Elementals 20 Brazier of Commanding Fire Elementals 20 Broom of Flying 21 Candle of Invocation 18-2=16
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Thursday, 6th June, 2019, 02:15 PM
    It actually was the point. That's why I called it a long cut. ;) I find having to get all the information via a Q&A session like having to pull teeth. It tells me that the DM is stingy with information, and that's just not fun for me. Further, it also yanks me out of any sort of immersion I could possibly have in his game. I'll have to Q&A constantly, which is done out of character, in...
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  • Maxperson's Avatar
    Thursday, 6th June, 2019, 01:45 PM
    The thing is, even with a Q&A session, evocative language is still being used. DM: A githyanki is a race that lives in the astral sea. The bolded evokes imagery of a humanoid and an ocean. Player: "Hang on. "Astral Sea"? What's that?" DM: "It's a part of the universe that is about like combining outer space with heaven." The bolded evokes imagery of space and the afterlife. Player:...
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Wednesday, 12th June, 2019

  • 07:40 PM - uzirath mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...I had the opportunity to do a two-year folklore study of RPGs. (This was amazing. Still pinching myself.) I referred in my last post to the "torture" of typing up transcripts. That was a big part of the project. I ended up with hundreds of hours of recordings of live D&D games. As I analyzed that data, it was surprising to me that some of the most compelling games (from the perspective of the players at the table) did not depend on strong rhetoric, great writing, lots of GM prep, etc. At the time, I wasn't primarily focusing on that element and didn't even have a vocabulary for talking about it (this thread is a couple decades late), but it stuck with me. To the extent you do not enjoy longer narration, that's fine! That's a preference! But ... and I'm going to say this one more time ... just because someone prefers Hemingway over Henry Miller doesn't mean that they are both effective at what they do. Follow me? Yes. I agree with you. My post was in response to the idea that Maxperson's maxim, "How you say something is very often more important than what you are saying," applies universally to all forms of communication. I think the statement is more applicable to communication styles that require the words to stand on their own. Written communication, especially, benefits from a better presentation because there are no conversational elements, no facial expressions, no gestures, no ability to interrupt and ask questions, etc. Speeches and theatrical performances create a similar separation of performer and audience, though communication can be achieved through things other than words. The playing of an RPG, at least when you're around a traditional tabletop, is more like a conversation, which is judged by different criteria. Not saying there ain't overlap. Not saying that a great voice actor can't add a lot to a game (personally, I like that stuff). Not saying that some groups might not play quite differently. But I'm largely sold on the premise that if I'm help...

Sunday, 9th June, 2019

  • 05:41 AM - pemerton mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    But I’m beginning to see why we’re all having a hard time coming to a consensus....it’s because we actually seem to have one, it’s just that what I see as pretty basic communication, you’re viewing as carefully wrought wordplay.I don't agree that there's a consensus: I can't really tell what Maxperson thinks, but Imaro and Hussar have made claims about the need for entertaining/evocative narration that I think clearly contradict the position I asserted in the OP. But one complicating fact pertains to vocabularly: eg I wouldn't regard cadaverous as a word to describe a Githyanki as especially remarkable or a-conversational, but Hussar probably would, and maybe Bedrockgames also. What counts as every day vocabularly among a group of RPGers is pretty highly variable and contingent on a range of factors (social background/status, educational levels, occupation, etc). I'm a humanities/social sciene academic (philosophy and law) and many of the people I talk to on a regular basis (ie the people I work with, my students, etc) are lilkewise, or are aspiring to be. So I think my every day vocaublary is probably richer than the New York Times. This is why I have brought it back to what are we aiming for? What counts as success, as good RPGing? What should a GM focus on? And I'm sayin...
  • 05:33 AM - pemerton mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I’m sure mine and pemerton’s ideas don’t exactly match, no. But that’s fine. I don’t entirely agree with his premise, but I understand it, and I think he has a point. But I’m only speaking for myself. I would tend to think of "rictus grin" as falling on the literary side of things, as does Hussar. As I've posted, it does no harm if it doesn't impede (what I regard as) the real point of play. It has a face like a skull might do just as well. I personally can't remember how I've described githyanki in the past - I suspect I'm more likely to have shown a picture, such as the one on the front of the Fiend Folio. More generally, and feeding this into the current Maxperson - Ovinomancer interaction, I think that the role of description in RPGing is easily overestimated. It prioritises immersive imagination orver protagonistic inhabitation. Whereas the latter is the distinctive virtue of RPGs as games that are about producing a shared fiction. All this said, I think you've fully understood my points in this thread, seem to agree at least to some extent, and have made many helpful posts into it for which I thank you.

Saturday, 8th June, 2019

  • 09:02 AM - pemerton mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...ith their evocative and engaging performances. To put it more genreally, you have said that RPG participants should keep in mind the literary quality of their narration, and aim at it being good. Of course you recognise that success will probably be mixed. That is what I'm disagreeing with when I say that RPGing is not a literary endeavour, that it doesn't aim at literary virtues, that situation and the call to action, rather than beauty or wordcraft, is central. I can cash this out by reference to rulebooks if you like. The 2nd ed AD&D PHB says that a player should try to bring his/her PC to life by entertaining portrayal and characterisation eg does s/he smell? does s/he belch? does s/he finger her prayer beads in moments of indecision? Unlesss I've badly misunderstood you, you agree with this. Whereas my claim is that that advice is at best tangential, and at worst actively bad, if we want excellent, exciting, engaging, RPGing. Or an example that came up in this thread. Maxperson said that a RPG gets better if the GM narrates the dust from the opening of the secret door, adding to the "depth and feel of the game". A lot of GM advice manuals say simiar things. Whereas, as I posted upthread, my advice to a GM on how to add to the depth and feel of the game would be very different: work on your situations, and your consequences, and let the narrative details take care of themselves.

Friday, 7th June, 2019

  • 10:29 PM - Lanefan mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...ore unharmed. Which very neatly gets you out of having to describe much detail at all, as the mechanics can cover all sorts of things at once. Mechanics like this are a cop-out, I think - instead of just calling for Brawn tests (low granularity of detail) I'd far rather be told the actual situation and then asked what my character specifically does about it (higher granulartity of detail). 'How shallow?' is a very relevant detail - if it's 4' deep then the Humans can likely walk on the bottom but the Hobbits and Gnomes are going to have to swim or be carried. How long and-or beamy the ship is gives - for those the least bit familiar with anything maritime - a quick idea about how much room there is on board, about how the ship is likely to behave in rough weather, and about how fast it is or isn't likely to go; and simply saying "you're on a solidly-built 70-foot three-master, narrow beam for its length, two decks and a hold, and probably deep draft" takes maybe five seconds. Maxperson lists some examples where differences in imagination between DM and player have caused grief, and that's exactly the sort of thing I don't want to see happen. When the DM says the field is strewn with large rocks I-as-player shouldn't have to ask how big they are. I've had characters die due to just this sort of thing - in one instance I remember clearly even though I asked for more clarification several times the DM's description still didn't put his picture of the scene into my mind but instead left me seeing a different one; I based my actions around my-as-player's perception of the scene and my character was dead within the round. For the colourful Bard, as the colourful part is obviously intended to be significant I'd probably ask the player to note on the character sheet a few details of what pieces of clothing are usually what colours, just so it's locked in in case it ever becomes relevant later. ("we need a distress flag and that bright red tunic will do nicely - give it ...
  • 02:07 PM - pemerton mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...ure. (Consider eg TS Eliot as a famous example.) But those are hardly typical teaching texts, and my guess is that the number of ESL classes that use this sort of literary criticism to try and teach English is pretty small. lacking any literary effort on the part of the DM, all these things are are bags of game stats. There's nothing distinguishing them. Or, to put it another way, what's the difference between a 5 hp orc and a 5 hp goblin?If I'm using the AD&D MM, one is brown and one is yellow. If I'm using DDG, one worships Gruumsh and one worships Maglubiyet. A person can describe and explain things without aiming at literary beauty. despite REPEATED requests that you clarify what "literary", "literary quality" and "wordcraft" and various other words you've tried to toss into the mix, you've never actually sat down and defined what you mean by these terms in a way that folks in the thread understand what you're on about. Clearly plenty of folks do - everyone but you, Maxperson and Imaro as far as I can tell. And frankly even Imaro seems to understand the point, despite protesting that it's unclear. He just disagrees with it - that is, he thinks that RPGing is a literary endeavour, and would find a game boring in which the GM didn't aim at literary quality in his/her narration. It seems worth mentioning at this point that not all disagreement is a result of unclear usage or uncertainty over definitions. Aesthetic debates aren't much like mathematics, in that respect at least. Anyway, to aim at literary quality is to try and produce pleasing, beautiful, evocative writing. Most poets do this. Most novelists do this. Fewer instructional writers do this - I've read recipe books that seem to aspire to literary quality, but never stereo or furniture assembly instructions. I've read a lot of academic papers over the years - these tend to aim at clarity, but many clearly do not aim at literary quality. Statutes, regulations, contracts and other legal instrument...

Saturday, 1st June, 2019

  • 05:48 PM - hawkeyefan mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Maxperson I feel like you care more about the technical definition than about if a GM or other adjudicator/facilitator is actually required. The way Fiasco works, no one would ever say there are 5 GMs. Also, there are other games that we can list besides Fiasco that don’t require a GM. I mentioned Microscope just a while ago, and that doesn’t require a GM. Nor does Kingdom, another RPG by the same author, Ben Robbins. Let’s not get hung up on semantics and start quoting definitions at people. There are enough games that don’t require a GM that we shouldn’t include it in the list of essential things for a RPG.

Tuesday, 28th May, 2019

  • 05:43 AM - pemerton mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    So let's focus on what the actual lines of dispute are, rather than fight endlessly over the definition of literary.Yeah, I didn't expect this thread to be a debate about the meaning and scope of the term "literary". I thought it might be a discussion about whether or not wordcraft is a principal or essential means of evoking emotional responses in a RPG. The point of my OP is to deny such a claim. On the other hand, I believe that Hussar affirms such a claim, as does Imaro. I'm frankly not sure what Maxperson thinks about it. Everyone agrees with you @pemerton.This isn't true at all. Unless you've changed your mind, upthread you asserted that the use of wordcraft and associated performance is a key means of promoting emotional responses in RPGing. Which is what I am disagreeing with. ************************ On the issue of "playstyle arguments/agendas", which has been flagged by Bedrockgames and darkbard: I think (and hope) it's obvious that my OP is putting forward a view about where the aesthetic merit and aeshetic power of RPGIng lies, and therefore a view about what the point of RPGing ultimately is. I recognise that others will disagree. That's not uncommon in critical discussions. I'm not 100% sure that I agree with Eagleton that these "deep structures" of aesthetic evaluation correlate to, or express, social power relations and any resultant ideologies. That's a further, and harder, question. But as I posted upthread in reply to Aldarc, I do think that these aestheti...

Monday, 27th May, 2019

  • 10:20 AM - Hussar mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Sorry, Aldarc, but, which definition are YOU using? Until such time as you and Bedrockgames actually tell me which definition you want to use, then we can't actually have any sort of meaningful discussion. Are we going to use Maxperson's broader definition or not? Pick one and we'll stick with that. You say that I'm making a category error. That's only true if we're using the broader definition. And, well, I do think it's a complete dodge to say, "Well, pacing exists in other media, so, it's not literary". That's not true. It IS literary, as well as other things. Now, since TV, movies, books, short stories, etc, all have pacing concerns, then, it's fair to say that any narrative form (which is what I was arguing with Bedrockgames about, not simply literary form) will have pacing concerns. They have to. Now, Bedrockgames claims that he does not pay any attention to pacing whatsoever in his adventure creation, nor during play. Now, I have to take him at his word for that, but, to me, that sounds like a terrible game. And "ignore pacing" is advice I would never give to any DM. To me, that's horrible advice. But, in any case, can we at least just use ONE definition? Otherwise, we're just talking past...
  • 03:27 AM - Hussar mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Yeah. Again, the last six or seven pages of this "discussion" has all been because folks absolutely refuse to pin down what definition of "literary" they would like us to use. If Literary=high art, then this discussion is, for all intents and purposes, over because we all agree that RPGing isn't meant to be high art. So, Bedrockgames, Aldarc, and anyone else who cares to weigh in, would you PLEASE define your terms. What do YOU mean by "literary". Not, playstyle or any other dodge, or comparisons to baking a cake. What do YOU mean, and we'll discuss using THAT definition. Because, boys and girls, until such time as you folks want to plant the goal posts, this conversation is just going to keep circling the same rabbit hole. Maxperson is, if we use his definition of literary, 100% correct. But, if we use pemerton's definition, he's 100% wrong. So, which definition do you want us to use? Pick one, stick with it, and we can move on.

Friday, 24th May, 2019


Tuesday, 21st May, 2019

  • 03:14 AM - pemerton mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...ady posted why crafted narration and conveying a situation that draws in the players might come into conflict. The first benefits from preparation (and the resulting opportunity to test, edit, etc). Whereas the second - like conversation, which has been my reiterated comparitor - benefits from spontaneous engagement within the back-and-forth at the table. EDIT: The description isn't what makes a situation in an RPG interesting: the situation is what makes interesting because it is interacting and part of a back and forth conversation. I honestly don't care if the GM is stumbling over words, uses the same adjective twice in a row for no reason, uses a ten dollar word that somewhat misses the mark, when a more precise 1 dollar word would do....those are all things I care about when I am reading quality books. When I am playing a game I am engaged with another human being and through them, a situation as my character.This is as good an account of the OP claim as any other. Imaro, Maxperson - you may disagree that what Bedrockgames describes here, and what I describe in the OP, is a good account of RPGing. That's fine and (it goes without saying) your prerogative. But I don't see why the discussion about this raises any issues about the meaning of words. I don't see how it helps the discussio by trying to argue that I, or Bedrockgames, is engaged in self-contradiction. Instead: tell us about how you see RPGs working. For instance, what do you see as the role of situation in RPGing. Why do you think the narratie crat with which a situation is presented is so important?

Monday, 20th May, 2019

  • 04:32 PM - Hriston mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    If you're not sure what I mean refer to the last post by @Maxperson for a pretty succinct explanation. Well, here's Maxperson's last post: Descriptions are what make the situation interesting. I can give you a situation of 10 gargoyles on a hill. One DM will make it bland and dull, the other through descriptions will make it interesting and exciting. Yep. I've been in RPGs that were dull and played like a board game. Bored game? From this, it seems that what you and Maxperson mean by presenting a situation well enough is that the situation is described. I agree that description is necessary, but I fail to see how merely describing a situation makes the formal qualities of that description the focus of the activity. If what you are claiming above is true then if given the same quality content that is communicated clearly there should never be deviation in how players respond to it (either being interested or not interested)... which begs the question if it's purely a question of quality of content and clarity then why can numero...
  • 03:35 AM - CleverNickName mentioned Maxperson in post Survivor Magic Jewelry (PART I)- AMULET OF THE PLANES WINS!
    What Maxperson said, except my first choice was the Amulet of Proof Against Detection and Location.
  • 02:22 AM - Imaro mentioned Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I’m not sure what you mean by “well enough”. I’m claiming that as long as the situation is clearly understood by the players, which is an issue with communication, not with quality of form/literary merit, and it fails to interest them nevertheless, that focusing on the artistry of its presentation is unlikely to generate the desired interest in the situation and is more likely to resemble some other form of entertainment that relies on such artistry, like a novel or a movie. If you're not sure what I mean refer to the last post by @Maxperson for a pretty succinct explanation. If what you are claiming above is true then if given the same quality content that is communicated clearly there should never be deviation in how players respond to it (either being interested or not interested)... which begs the question if it's purely a question of quality of content and clarity then why can numerous DM's try to hook their players to interact with the same content and get totally different responses from their players insofar as interest is concerned? Are you saying any and every DM who can't get his players interested in quality content must not be clearly communicating with their players? If not what are you saying is the cause? My bad. I was using “flowery language” as a euphemism for formal quality in narration, which I thought was fairly obvious. Sorry if that has caused any confusion in the discussion. Oh I was just making sure you understood that one did not equate to the other but it appears you already knew that an...

Thursday, 9th May, 2019

  • 12:36 AM - pemerton mentioned Maxperson in post A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
    I can't understand pemerton 's reference to playing rolemaster since 1990Because Rolemaster players feel that being lectured by a D&D player about what realism in RPGing means is like an Australian lecturing a Canadian about what cold and snow are all about. Or to put it another way: I've done 100s and 100s of hours of process sim RPGing - far more than Maxperson has. Maxperson has, as far as I know, never played RM, never played RQ, never played C&S, and maybe has played some GURPS or HERO (I can't remember on these last two). I've been part of a play culture that has a very robust sense of what realism in RPGing means, and that is very conscious of the difference between and relationships between mechanical process and fictional content. And I can't make sense of what Maxperson is saying.

Tuesday, 7th May, 2019

  • 09:39 AM - Aldarc mentioned Maxperson in post A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
    1. Notice how you're continuing to compare different TTRPGs? There's a reason for that (see also, 2). Despite what I've written repeatedly that this is about comparisons within a single thing, not between things (is the flight simulation more or less realistic with or without wind, not is the flight simulator more realistic with wind than the space simulation). But the thrust of this is you keep discussing, and retreating to, "established fiction," which is completely orthogonal to what we are discussing, which is why the issue is described in terms of realism/simulation. There is nothing wrong, or right, with fiction that is great, or bad, or in-between; only that it has little to do with simulating or modeling reality (realism).You are presenting a strawman here (if not multiple ones), and I'm sure you will get some XP kudos from Maxperson for it. ;) The reason for comparing different TTRPGs is that a singular TTRPGs generally do not have multiple subsystems for whether they "model wind" or not. They usually either do or do not because systems generally come as pre-packaged systems. We can look at singular systems such as D&D, but then when we speak of adding models or not, we are typically dealing with house rules. Likewise, I do not "retreat" to establishing fiction; I use it because it provides one way to compare claims about the realism added of "modeled realism" versus "no model." Even if we look within a singular system that added a model of wind, the same point would largely hold true. The addition of a model intending to model realism does not inherently provide a net positive of realism to a system. 2. Which brings me to my second point, which I have both alluded to and outright stated. This "debate" really has nothing to do with what we are discussing, but rather has to do with other debates you ha...

Monday, 6th May, 2019

  • 10:44 AM - pemerton mentioned Maxperson in post A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
    Maxperson, as far as I know there are no rules in 5e for clothes becoming dirty or sweaty. Does that mean you think a GM who narrates a failed physical manoeuvre in a swamp as "You fall into the mud, making your clothes filthy" is breaking the rules? Or a GM who narrates a failed CHA check to influence a NPC, in circumstances where the PC has been in the wilds for a long time without bathing, as the NPC walking away making a comment about These reeking travellers? There are many ways that humans can degrade their clothes, their weapons, their pets, their companions (where are D&D's rules for putting a frog in someone's bed?) that D&D's rules don't model. That doesn't mean those things aren't part of the gameworld. It doesn't stop both players and GM's invoking them when the mood strikes, either as mere colour (like hawkeyefan's player who has a cold and so plays his/her PC as having a cold) or as part of the narration of failure (as per my examples above, or as per the suggestion that Abdul...

Tuesday, 30th April, 2019

  • 09:10 AM - Aldarc mentioned Maxperson in post A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
    If I'm reading Aldarc correctly, that system doesn't have any means of completely avoiding damage ("endurance drain") - though it seems you can try in the fiction to avoid being hit, you'll be hit anyway. Put another way, every attack hits at least to some extent with the only variable being how much damage is inflicted. That said, a question for Aldarc : Maxperson may have a valid point, I think, in questioning how long it takes to recover endurance loss suffered through avoided attacks (i.e. simple combat exertion) vs non-avoided attacks. I say "may have" above in that the answer will largely depend on the answer to a bigger question: whether endurance drain is seen as fatigue (easy to recover) or "meat" damage (not so easy to recover) or a combination of both, or whether the game system bothers with such distinctions. In the realism-authenticity debate this matters because 99% of the time fatigue "damage" is easier to recover from than "meat" damage - after hard exertion you can recover for a few minutes and be good to go again (e.g. a hockey player does a shift on the ice, recovers for a few minutes on the bench, and is good to go for another shift) but if your finger gets mashed that's gonna hurt for days.I don't necessarily think that it matters. From what I recall, and maybe Maxperson can clarify his views, but he plays (per RAW) i...

Monday, 29th April, 2019

  • 07:47 PM - Lanefan mentioned Maxperson in post A GMing telling the players about the gameworld is not like real life
    How does hit point recovery work? Because if you dodge 3 "hits"(rounds) before killing the goblin and your hit points are not fully restored 60 seconds later, it does not at all reflect physical drain as it happens in real life. It doesn't take more than a few seconds to recover from a few dodges and swings. 18 seconds of exertion won't tire your for long.If I'm reading Aldarc correctly, that system doesn't have any means of completely avoiding damage ("endurance drain") - though it seems you can try in the fiction to avoid being hit, you'll be hit anyway. Put another way, every attack hits at least to some extent with the only variable being how much damage is inflicted. That said, a question for Aldarc : Maxperson may have a valid point, I think, in questioning how long it takes to recover endurance loss suffered through avoided attacks (i.e. simple combat exertion) vs non-avoided attacks. I say "may have" above in that the answer will largely depend on the answer to a bigger question: whether endurance drain is seen as fatigue (easy to recover) or "meat" damage (not so easy to recover) or a combination of both, or whether the game system bothers with such distinctions. In the realism-authenticity debate this matters because 99% of the time fatigue "damage" is easier to recover from than "meat" damage - after hard exertion you can recover for a few minutes and be good to go again (e.g. a hockey player does a shift on the ice, recovers for a few minutes on the bench, and is good to go for another shift) but if your finger gets mashed that's gonna hurt for days.


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Friday, 14th June, 2019

  • 09:28 PM - Charlaquin quoted Maxperson in post Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment!
    No, not by natural language. By D&D definitions it's not more neutral than neutral. Below are some of the definitions. 5e: CN: creatures follow their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else. N: is the alignment of those w ho prefer to steer clear of moral questions and don’t take sides, doing what seems best at the time. Whims are chaotic and impulsive, not neutral in any way. Steering clear of moral questions and not taking any sides, even chaotic and impulsive ones is more neutral. In other words, neutral doesn’t commit to any side, chaotic neutral is committed to not taking a side. It is, functionally, a more committed form of neutrality. 3e: CN: chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign of anarchy...
  • 09:27 PM - Charlaquin quoted Maxperson in post Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment!
    No, not by natural language. By D&D definitions it's not more neutral than neutral. Below are some of the definitions. 5e: CN: creatures follow their whims, holding their personal freedom above all else. N: is the alignment of those w ho prefer to steer clear of moral questions and don’t take sides, doing what seems best at the time. Whims are chaotic and impulsive, not neutral in any way. Steering clear of moral questions and not taking any sides, even chaotic and impulsive ones is more neutral. In other words, neutral doesn’t commit to any side, chaotic neutral is committed to not taking a side. It is, functionally, a more committed form of neutrality. 3e: CN: chaotic neutral character follows his whims. He is an individualist first and last. He values his own liberty but doesn’t strive to protect others’ freedom. He avoids authority, resents restrictions, and challenges traditions. A chaotic neutral character does not intentionally disrupt organizations as part of a campaign ...
  • 06:37 PM - Satyrn quoted Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I hear licking exploding toads can get you there, too. That glorious feeling I'm feeling right now? It's not because my local basketball team won a basketball tournament. All my time wasted in this thread had just paid off. I've just struck gold. GOLD! Black and gold chequered, hallucinogenic exploding toads. But it's not just when you lick them. Anyone caught in the explosion must make a Wisdom to avoid tripping out. The next time my players face goblins is gonna be insane.
  • 03:55 PM - Charlaquin quoted Maxperson in post Chaotic Good Is The Most Popular Alignment!
    Er, by definition Chaotic Neutral cannot be more neutral than True Neutral. By a natural language definition, you’d be right. But by D&D’s definitions, where chaotic seems to mean not caring about the rules, rather than being actively opposed to rules, chaos is just more extreme neutrality.
  • 02:09 PM - Morrus quoted Maxperson in post Upgraded to https! Please report bugs!
    Are there any plans to address them? The plan is to upgrade from vBulletin to Xenforo, which is an entirely different software. No, there is no ETA.

Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 02:42 PM - Bedrockgames quoted Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    That may make it seem like content matters more than presentation, but I don't think that it does. Even with the filter, the presentation still matters just as much as the content. I'm just adjusting the presentation to match the charisma. Both presentation and content matter equally in my opinion. I do the same thing actually. But this reasoning doesn't make much sense to me. The presentation is the same, you are just interpreting the presentation differently based on a mechanic. However I think we are getting pretty far afield of the crux of the debate. It really isn't about whether one is more important than the other. It is more about what kind of delivery/presentation/description people want. Some of us want a style that is natural, doesn't affect the manner or techniques of novel writing, some of us do want a more literary style of description. We've debated the meanings of these various terms. But I think if we make an attempt to understand the key difference arising, it centers aroun...
  • 02:28 PM - Aldarc quoted Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Bad analogy. This thread debate using basketball would be... What's more important in playing basketball, offense, defense, shooting or dribbling? Theatrics in most sports is nearly non-existent. It shows up a little bit after touchdowns, goals and such, but for most of the game it's not there. If you wanted to use a "sport" where theatrics and the sport might be on equal ground, go with the WWE. That contains enough theatrics during the entire event to contend with the content of wrestling.This certainly shows you don't watch much basketball. Theatrics are definitely there. It's part of the dunks, the juking, the fade aways, the finishes, and playstyles of many players. Legendary basketball player Julius Erving (Dr. J.) even got his start in a league dedicated to the theatrics of basketball: the Harlem Globetrotters. ;)
  • 01:48 PM - Imaro quoted Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    .... the presentation still matters just as much as the content. I'm just adjusting the presentation to match the charisma. Both presentation and content matter equally in my opinion. This pretty much sums up my stance since this thread began. It's like asking what's more important in playing basketball, being able to dribble or being able to shoot... Both are, even though you could technically play a good game without doing one or the other and/or putting emphasis on one over the other.

Wednesday, 12th June, 2019

  • 06:06 PM - Bedrockgames quoted Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    No. A lot of people with great ideas have been ignored by people, because the one with the idea didn't say it right. A lot of horrors have happened, because someone with a bad idea that people generally wouldn't listen to, were sold on it by someone saying it the right way. How you say something is very often more important than what you are saying. I don't disagree. But you are misreading what I am saying. I am saying exactly because what you said is true we should pay more attention to substance than packaging, more attention to a person's ideas than the rhetoric they wrap it up in, and more attention to what a GM is actually saying than the way they are saying it. So I wasn't denying that people pay attention to how things are said. I didn't say this wasn't the case. My statement was saying it shouldn't be the case. It is an ought statement. Wouldn't you agree the things you mention in your quote are bad? Doesn't this suggest we should pay more attention to substance than delivery? T...
  • 03:10 PM - uzirath quoted Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    How you say something is very often more important than what you are saying. I agree with this in terms of writing or public speaking. (I have often worked with students who somehow think that the good idea buried in their grammarless "paragraph" should exonerate them from a low grade.) With gaming, however, I am more forgiving. This ties into the concept of a game being collaborative, more like a conversation than a speech or a piece of writing. In conversations, people are also more forgiving about poor word choice and other delivery flaws. If you've ever suffered the peculiar torture of having to type up recordings of conversations, it's immediately apparent that live conversations are a bloody mess. Grammar is shoddy; vocabulary is used incorrectly; there are awkward pauses and unnecessary repetitions; people are cutting each other off; etc. The participants in those conversations, however, may not even notice these rhetorical flaws, especially if they are deeply engaged with the con...

Tuesday, 11th June, 2019

  • 05:18 PM - Matthia05718273 quoted Maxperson in post Last Man Standing: Best D&D Modules
    Desert of Desolation - 20 Aisle of Dread - 0 - Dread is dead. "Whose Dread?" "Dread's dead baby, Dread's dead." Desert of Desolation wins, I guess the people saying it was the likeliest next remake for 5e (in the vein of TotYP and Ghosts of Saltmarsh) weren't joking.
  • 02:07 PM - lowkey13 quoted Maxperson in post Players 'distressed' by gang-rape role-playing game
    I am at peace. For now I have seen everything. I mean, it's not that hard. Someone can always start a lengthy post about how John Wick 3 is the greatest movie of all time, should win all the Oscars this year, should retroactively win all the Oscars ever, and was such a good movie that it briefly kept them from playing their beloved Paladin. And I'd give it XP, because, yes, John Wick 3 WILL OWN YOUR SOUL. The only reason it doesn't happen is because the Venn Diagram of Awesome Comments that Deserve XP and Commenters that Play Paladins and Love Them resembles two balls, one bobbing the Atlantic Ocean, and one bobbing in the Pacific.
  • 01:37 PM - gyor quoted Maxperson in post Last Man Standing: Best D&D Modules
    Desert of Desolation - 20 Aisle of Dread - 0 - Dread is dead. All hail Desert of Desolation, the Champion if 2019!!! It's like I set you up for the finishing sneak attack on Ilse of Dread. Hopefully it'll be like Saltmarsh's win and this will lead to Desert of Desolation being made for 5e.
  • 11:00 AM - Morrus quoted Maxperson in post Upgraded to https! Please report bugs!
    Are the blocking/blocked bugs fixed with this change? We simply upgraded the sever to https.

Monday, 10th June, 2019

  • 07:48 PM - aramis erak quoted Maxperson in post Hidden
  • 03:00 PM - dnd4vr quoted Maxperson in post Wizards (et al.) Casting Known Spells?
    Less than 1 spell per spell level over bards, and half that over clerics and druids is hardly what I would call "quite a bit." Well, compared to Sorcerers and Warlocks, Wizards eventually would know twice as many spells (30 vs only 15), and more than 35% more than Bards. Clerics and Druids have more "extra" features so would receive more spells than Bards, Sorcerers, and Warlocks, but not quite as many as Wizards. Even clerics and druids have an spell known edge over Bards, and a significant on over Sorcerers and Warlocks at higher levels. I would call those percentages "quite a bit", yes. Then 90% of the time there should be no delay. Most of the remaining 10% should also be no delay as they should know their spells and be thinking about what to switch out while watches are being taken and other things being described. The length of time it takes me to tell a DM I made changes is a few seconds on average. The delay is still there. That is the annoying part. The time is wasted wondering wh...
  • 12:36 PM - Ovinomancer quoted Maxperson in post Igniting an object
    No. I'm done. If he doesn't get it, he doesn't get i.I get your argument, Max. It's not hard. You've assigned a potency metric based either on spell level or total damage done (I think both, maybe?) that you use as a gauge for likelihood of setting things on fire. My issue was that you've used this preference of yours to argue against what flammable means and a reading of the rules of the game. It's absolutely fine that you do things that way, but you can't use your houserules to change what the rules say or what flammable means.
  • 04:13 AM - jgsugden quoted Maxperson in post Igniting an object
    No. I'm done. If he doesn't get it, he doesn't get i.Playing hard to get?
  • 01:57 AM - Ovinomancer quoted Maxperson in post Igniting an object
    The attack is just as lethal to the guy with 150 as it is to the guy with 10. The guy with 150 just has a lot of skill and luck and got the heck out of the way of enough of it that a worst, it lit some of his stuff on fire. <blink> So, if the 150 hp character takes 20 points of damage, it's just as lethal to them as it is to a character with 10 hitpoints? They both die, then? Or, is this a case where you're using a different definition of "lethal" than one might expect.[SIC] ``
  • 01:17 AM - Riley37 quoted Maxperson in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Hrm. I thought I started the mechanics thing with two mechanics talking to one another. Auto mechanics... or game mechanics?


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