View Profile: pemerton - Morrus' Unofficial Tabletop RPG News
Tab Content
  • DMZ2112's Avatar
    Today, 04:40 PM
    It was realistic. It was also sad. Dustin bestowing the Basic Set upon Erica was a good save, but seeing Will put it in the donation box* and hearing Mike's half-hearted objection broke my heart. (*"You fool!" I cried. "Twenty years from now you are going to be so mad at yourself!" :) )
    49 replies | 1813 view(s)
    0 XP
  • DMZ2112's Avatar
    Today, 04:12 PM
    DMZ2112 replied to OSR Gripes
    I started a BECMI game for my D&D5 group at the beginning of 2018, with the intention of running the Basic canon as a palate cleanser. I started with the Great Escape scenario from Castle Caldwell and Beyond as a funnel, with everyone running three unequipped 1st-level characters generated in the traditional way (3d6 in order). I ran as by-the-book as I could, although the stilted wargame...
    209 replies | 6355 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Today, 04:04 PM
    Same, but the Aspects are almost a subsystem due to how they tie everything together.
    10 replies | 388 view(s)
    0 XP
  • DMZ2112's Avatar
    Today, 03:40 PM
    I don't see the advantage. I mean, you can argue that no one really understands what the mental ability scores mean, and that is definitely a problem I have with D&D: Is Intelligence a measure of education, or "IQ;" is Wisdom willpower, sanity, or common sense; is Charisma physical beauty, leadership ability, or personality? But as to whether mental ability scores should be removed...
    78 replies | 2900 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 03:16 PM
    Noteworthy difference ... you opt in to the extra hd based healing
    3 replies | 146 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Today, 02:57 PM
    I did suggest Perception earlier, though Intuition may also work. Willpower (i.e., wisdom saves) could then be moved to Charisma.
    78 replies | 2900 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 02:46 PM
    I love Mikes work even the times I disagreed with details the fresh eyes on the game and how it can invoke heroic archetypal characters is right up my alley
    8 replies | 142 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 02:12 PM
    Sounds like some very similar rule idea.
    3 replies | 146 view(s)
    0 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 11:24 AM
    Hussar, Lanefan - if narrowing of possible resolutions = the GM being bound by the results of checks, than sure, any system other than "GM decides" will have that consequence. But unless the dice are rigged then fails are possible, in which case fail scenarios are possible resolutions, and there is no narrowing of the range of possible resolution.
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 11:01 AM
    Healing Surges the 5e variant rule should be called Second Wind. Ok not a big deal right? nothing to get teary or sniffles over however once you notice that it implements something rarely ever actually used it kind of becomes annoying (SW was kind of a back up thing not the meat of HS use). Second Winds were rarely ever used in my experience unless your party lacked the leader class or were...
    3 replies | 146 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 08:45 AM
    Offhand Commands is going to be a build choice feature or actually just a class feature that has no impact unless you are a beastmaster if you have 1 hand free you may more adeptly command your beast companion, your attacks gain a tier scaling bonus to damage of +2 +3, +4. Inherently Endowed as you level your awesome rubs off on your beast and they gain effective inherent bonuses (equal to...
    22 replies | 843 view(s)
    0 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 07:11 AM
    Your example doesn't show any narrowing of possible results. The scenario you describe is a possible failure narration; and it could be a success narration if that is what the player decides his/her PC searches for.
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 12:57 AM
    How about recommended I mean trust your players to be thematic and give them an extra if you want
    65 replies | 1685 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Today, 12:56 AM
    Other classes can also get thematically appropriate abilities for their reactions. Paladins have Retributive Strike. Wizards can pick up Counterspell. Etc.
    114 replies | 5863 view(s)
    0 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:20 PM
    I believe many more people have watched The Avengers than have watched The Seventh Seal. But that doesn't mean that every time I want to talk about the latter I talk about the former instead or as well. If people who only want to talk about D&D, or who have no interest in talking or reading about how other systems do things, don't want to participate in this thread, that's a risk I'm prepared...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    3 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:15 PM
    Reposted:
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Hriston's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:03 PM
    Reason(s)?
    111 replies | 3214 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Hriston's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:55 PM
    The rapier should be called the arming sword. Also, elves should not have a natural lifespan. I interpret the number of years given as the time after which they are overcome with the sorrows of the world and seek the West (Feywild) by either leaving the world physically or, if they cannot, leaving their bodies behind.
    111 replies | 3214 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:41 PM
    My pedantic complaints are really old and while I can express them I am over the majority of them...
    111 replies | 3214 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:15 PM
    I might have to build that group as a D&D party
    40 replies | 3981 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:29 PM
    AoOs have been mostly reimagined as reactions that would make sense for each class. So a wizard, for example, could not necessarily perform AoOs as per a fighter given their training, but they would likely know how to counterspell when those situations rise.
    114 replies | 5863 view(s)
    0 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:55 PM
    In your case, you seem to know both BW and D&D, which are the two systems I referenced in the post of mine that you quoted. Do you have any thoughts about this mind flayer and false memories example that might draw on either of the systems? Or if you want to engage it by reference to another system, that would be interesting too!
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:48 PM
    Do you have much experience with 4e D&D? It's a bit of an open question exactly what tools 4e provides, because the skill challenge is - as presented - such an open-ended or un-nailed-down framework that (experience suggests) needs users to bring ideas and/or experience from outside to really get the best out of it. I think a skill challenge might be able to handle the scenario you're...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    3 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:45 PM
    Has anyone investigated this.... the idea of "courtly intrigues" has me wondering about whether it might be a flavor of Martial Practices.
    1 replies | 725 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:42 PM
    There are very few elements in 4e that have flavor so far knocked down that you cannot shake them up. Dispel Magic and Martial Practices vs Rituals are ones so far I have seen brought up. MP and R are generally fixed by giving MP sufficient support or allowing extremely liberal reflavoring of rituals. So do we create zones with a different flavor we call them areas of influence and allow...
    115 replies | 4795 view(s)
    0 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 10:22 AM
    I'm not sure about incentives. When I read the Strike(!) I think of "intent and task" and failure narration in BW. Or the example from AW that I posted upthread. If the check fails, the GM is entitled to narrate the failure by imposing a new and unwanted description of the PC's action. But I don't think in any of the systems this could go as far as you've fallen in love with the maiden unless...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    1 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 10:16 AM
    This is an interesting question - in general, and about D&D play: To what extent is the GM permitted to rewrite player-authored PC backstory by drawing upon a combination of (i) situation and stakes and (ii) failed checks. In BW (for instance) I think this is fair game. The only version of D&D I can think of able to handle this is 4e. I don't really see how it would be done in AD&D. And from...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    1 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 10:02 AM
    If the player is avoiding expedience by sticking to conceptualisation, how is that conceptualisation going to be challenged? Or changed? If the player is at liberty to change conceptuatlisation in response to choices, what governs those choices? Self-evidently it can't be conceptualisation. You don't want it to be expedience. Is it whim? Do you have actual play examples to post that...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    2 XP
  • S'mon's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:29 AM
    It's a situation the rules don't cover. I think a vampiric curse would be interesting for roleplay - I didn't say anything about taking away the character.
    76 replies | 1577 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:30 AM
    So I've skimmed the recent bits of the thread. In a follow-up post, I'm going to relay a recent PC:PC social conflict in Strike (!) and invite folks to chime in on how they perceive this anecdote (a) contrasts with gameplay where social conflict isn't formalized and (b) there are neither mechanical feedbacks nor PC build components involved. But first, I want to post some text from Strike (!)...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    4 XP
  • Hriston's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:59 AM
    If I was converting this adventure, I’d want to stick with the original level range, keeping in mind that it was written for a slightly larger party size (4-6 PCs) than is typical in 5E. So I’d gauge difficulties for a party of four 8th-level PCs. Depending on what other encounters the party is expected to overcome in the same day, it might not be a bad idea to let there be a deadly encounter...
    3 replies | 181 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:21 AM
    Got you covered. Done and done. ;)
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:11 AM
    Too early to say.
    13 replies | 610 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 11:55 PM
    Yay give me some swordmage please
    106 replies | 2230 view(s)
    2 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 11:21 PM
    Ad Hominem? I don't care about your argument. It was a dry comment that it would not be a pemerton megathread without your usual appeal to the lexicon at some point in this discussion. ;)
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 11:14 PM
    It isny exactly a house rule but my daughter liked the option of turning potential enemies into allies
    34 replies | 2138 view(s)
    0 XP
  • S'mon's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 08:15 PM
    Once they're Raised the Gentle Repose would not be in effect. They've been infected with vampirism, a magical disease, so they come back vampirised. I'd have them turn into a vampire later, as happened to my first PC in ES IV: Oblivion. She completed the game without feeding, then after failing to find a cure she walked into the sunlight.
    76 replies | 1577 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Campbell's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 06:27 PM
    I would be more than willing to discuss the merits of Exalted 3e elsewhere. It is a fundamentally different game that I feel delivers on the promise of previous versions of the game. Here I would like to focus on social mechanics, their effects, and implications.
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • S'mon's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 05:44 PM
    I'd probably have them come back as a Vampire. :D Their hp maximum is 0 so they can't be alive, so if they come back it'll be as undead. Edit: Well really I'd probably let them come back with 1 hp apparently alive, and be able to rest to raise their hp total. The vampire stuff would come later...
    76 replies | 1577 view(s)
    2 XP
  • chaochou's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 05:16 PM
    But you don't know anything. You just blithely assert factless, empty garbage. You even accept, when challenged, total ignorance of the subject matter. As such, the key point in this exhange has been to demonstrate that your opinions are worthless.
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    2 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 05:08 PM
    (1) This thread is in general RPG. Not D&D. There's a reason for that. (2) I'm not saying that players should or shouldn't do anything in every system. The OP invites discussion about various ways in which true descriptions of PC actions might be established. The current discussion has moved on a bit from that, to also talk about how true descriptions of PC choices, PC emotional states, etc...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 05:08 PM
    The power if it is working on top of the Battlemaster needs to be different. Come and get it for 5e.Battlemaster
    163 replies | 5538 view(s)
    0 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 05:01 PM
    You posted this not too far upthread: Before you posted that, Campbell already posted on outline of mechanics from Exalted which contradict what you said: the player in Exalted (i) does not sit out of the loop, and (ii) does have input on how his/her PC would react. Further upthread I posted the Apocalypse World mechanics for PvP seduction/maipulation. In that system the player gets to...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    1 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 04:52 PM
    This is missing the point. One may as well ask, What story can't D&D produce? Well, if the players and the GM all get together and agree on it then you can play out Casablanca in D&D, can't you? (That was Campbell's point about consensus.) But the current topic of discussion is how that might be done, and what sort of play experience might be involved. The example of Exalted, for instance,...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    1 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 04:34 PM
    I guess you can assert things in ignorance, yet avoid error, if you get lucky. On this occasion though, your luck has failed you. The claims you make aren't plausible even within the compass of D&D, which includes the 4e skill challenge mechanic. They are completely wrong when it comes to other systems such as the ones that chaochou has mentioned.
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    2 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 04:05 PM
    Actually, it is as "semantics" is fundamentally about 'meaning,' and you are currently doing what is referred to in the field of linguistics as 'lexical semantics.' For someone who likes to drop lexical entries into arguments, I'm surprised you don't know that. :D Yeah, but what about imagining a persuasion roll in D&D?! :p
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • chaochou's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:54 PM
    Again, using the mechanics of Burning Wheel's Duel of Wits, then Blades in the Dark, then Apocalypse World demonstrate how these claims manifest themselves in actual play. Again, you can't and won't because your claims are a) completely empty and false and b) the product of complete ignorance of the available mechanics.
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    2 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:47 PM
    Ah, there we go. It's not a pemerton megathread until Maxperson gets into a debate of semantics and pulls out a lexicon so that he can argue definitions. We are also just missing Maxperson broadening the sense of a term such that it becomes meaningless in the discourse; let's say, something akin to "Everything is a challenge." ;)
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:41 PM
    This completely misunderstands chaochou's point. As I posted upthread, "cheating" or acting on out-of-game motivations has nothing to do with what anyone is talking about in this thread. The basic point is that, in the scenarios you keep putting forward, nothing happens to the PC's inner being or self-conception that the player did not choose. So the player choose that which s/he prefers....
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    4 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:35 PM
    Duel of Wits from Burning Wheel has been mentioned. It's an interesting example, because it permits PCs to be persuaded (by other PCs, or by NPCs) but doesn't change their underlying motivations/orientations. In the context of (say) a maiden trying to persuade a PC to help her, it can certainly permit that. And if the maiden is charming or flirty that can factor into her checks (eg FoRK...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:29 PM
    This is probably my most consistent dissatisfaction with D&D. There are many times where I have brainstormed possible campaigns or games of D&D that I have wanted to run. But in the process, I invariably find myself feeling like my vision of the world becomes a slave to the rules and not the rules to the world. D&D does D&D fantasy well, and many could run nothing but these types of stories,...
    79 replies | 2470 view(s)
    4 XP
  • chaochou's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:14 PM
    This is entirely ignorant of the range and applications of mechanics available and written into rpgs. You've clearly never read, far less used, any of them and yet seem completely certain of the impact of every one of them on the play experience. Explain how your persuasion situation is resolved in Burning Wheel's Duel of Wits. Then explain how it is resolved in Blades in the Dark. Then in...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    2 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:05 PM
    I'll leave the fidelity claim to one side. But the second claim is an empirical one. I'd be curious to see if it's true. Personally I doubt it - I don't have experience with Exalted, but in my experience with other systems that provide various sorts of systematic support for engagement with PC motivations and emotions the range of characters played - when considered in proportion to the overall...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 01:10 PM
    Completely a better thread
    68 replies | 2235 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 01:06 PM
    Oh I quite agree about using the secondary as build / design dependent - remember the Fighter is the ultimate tough guy, in 4e they most definitely had builds that made CON their secondary (featured a lot of temporary hit points and bold fearless attacks in 4e it was almost a different rout to striker roll too)
    163 replies | 5538 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 12:53 PM
    Or a few years back 6 texas rangers hiyo hiyo rode in the sun (The lone ranger) or Walker Texas Ranger. But no I think the Fantasy Ranger Aragorn is likely to be much more broadly associated even with those around the earlier times, the movies were astoundingly popular AND received 17 Academy Awards,
    352 replies | 12033 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 12:22 PM
    CapnZapp, why do you keep letting your @$$ do all the talking when it comes to PF2? When will you get it in your head that this is a complete non-issue for probably the hypermajority of players?
    114 replies | 5863 view(s)
    0 XP
  • S'mon's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 12:02 PM
    I tend to play across the whole level range, so I'd say 5-10 is most important but I expect the game to work at all levels and I certainly want 1-15 to be workable. 3e/PF problems at 7+ are a major issue for me since the APs typically go ca 1-15.
    16 replies | 513 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 07:13 AM
    Did I mention I think this has a lot of cool stuff in it... regardless of whether it is "the ranger to me"
    352 replies | 12033 view(s)
    2 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 06:37 AM
    Come and Get it Is not a Lazylord maneuver unless he can make an ally into the bait and trap so it remains a secondary for the style of character likely to use it, and might be a tertiary for the tough guy who really wants as many as possible next to him ;) The problem of compound rolling needs addressed in your design it is a classic one in D&D basically you end up hiding cool effects behind...
    163 replies | 5538 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 06:26 AM
    "Promise" === Oath and he didnt break the promise (ie for an all knowing entity he would personally have been seen to have done no wrong and not at all been disobedient, nevertheless it precipitated his fall and he didnt lose his power over a his own act it was not a lie nor an act he performed, but rather the arbitrary ritual condition being broken - however it was brought about by conflict with...
    352 replies | 12033 view(s)
    0 XP
  • MoonSong's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 04:45 AM
    RPGs live and die by their setting. Only D&D can afford to go "setting agnostic" (and that is barely) by virtue of its size and prominence. Without a strong setting a random RPG is but a set of bland mechanics, and if it's fantasy themed, it is just a heartbreaker. For identity purposes World of Darkness is Storyteller, Freedom City is M&M, and Golarion is Pathfinder. Yes, other settings can work...
    114 replies | 5863 view(s)
    1 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:15 AM
    I think this is very important when approaching social/emotional conflict in RPGs. Otherwise there is a significant risk of all the characters turning out to be the same ie merely expedient. That's fine for Dying Earth but not desirable in general, in my view. Can you explain this further in relation to the system you've described? Is this the depletion of Willpower, or something else as well?...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 02:35 AM
    I do not see them the same at all. The Oath Bound hero had Oaths to Royalty as often as the divine and were often weird and arbitrary ok its not overly consistent with D&Ds paladin but the idea of a fighter who gains power via oath goes back to Cu Culaine and Samson and even the concept of Conflicting Oaths such as culaines totemic vs his hospitality ... like Lancelot's Oaths to King and Queen ...
    352 replies | 12033 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 02:21 AM
    Them are hunters and that is obviously Legolas not Aragorn. :)
    352 replies | 12033 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 09:42 PM
    Balance your cool as a smallish component of an attack that is still badass like they did on the maneuvers now. But treat them as forgo an attack and do a roll maybe even an easy one to put your eggs (the benefit of 1 of those attacks in a basket with the other subsequent one this latter to be truly balanced may take extra to hit on the combined basket - then tweak to fit) Scanning for...
    38 replies | 1173 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 09:03 PM
    I think for most people outside of our circle ranger means movie Aragorn ;)
    352 replies | 12033 view(s)
    2 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 08:20 PM
    Garthanos replied to OSR Gripes
    I am DM C which is a little like A in that I am fond of making my own stuff however I like have a game system that creates solid reliable foundations so when I change its bits and pieces, I can predict the results and make fewer errors up front.
    209 replies | 6355 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 06:58 PM
    Unless one is doing a Hiawatha (or Steppe Nomad Archer) stunt of the snapshot archer barrage in which case totally its dex.
    78 replies | 2900 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 06:34 PM
    Dex the uberstat... if strength can share its stuff let Wis,Int,Cha and occasionally Con steal some of Dex stuff (forethought fast decisive or even instinctive thinking and spirited eagerness sound like a foundation of initiative if you weren't surprised more than reflexes)
    78 replies | 2900 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Campbell's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 06:29 PM
    Let me start off by saying I do not like viewing game mechanics through the lens of necessity. No mechanics are actually necessary. Anything can be resolved through consensus. That's what the online freeformers do. However, sometimes consensus is like boring and stuff. I'm going to start with an example of a system that I consider to have the most impact on player agency of the games I like to...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    4 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 06:29 PM
    Garthanos replied to OSR Gripes
    Changing the rules was definitely a part of the experience I think renovating the spell casting system seemed to be par for the course unless you were at a convention or just starting out with a newbie DM of course that is an anecdote not data.
    209 replies | 6355 view(s)
    0 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 03:46 PM
    If your perspective is that playing DitV is the same as playing DL, then I have to ask - have you played DitV, or any system like it? So now it's corrosive for people to talk about their play experiences, and what they found different in different systems? This is why I described you upthread as hostile to analysis. As for the idea that GNS is corrosive - the only anger and hostility I...
    131 replies | 9192 view(s)
    4 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 03:34 PM
    I can see why you say this. But for me, this brings us back to Campbell's remarks: The absence of choice in the example I provided occurred at the point of the killing. At that point, thie player learns - without having any say over it - that his PC is a killer. At that point, playing the character with integrity generates the crisis. There were subsequent events, too, that played on the...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 03:24 PM
    Okay? I never said that you did. I said that Paizo made a choice to restrict the initial wave of classes to the Old Core 11 + 1 New. This meant that while one would be added, others would be excluded, and this requires making a choice. As I have said, I think that the Alchemist was a far more compelling choice for Paizo, though you strongly feel that the Witch should have been included. So which...
    114 replies | 5863 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 02:32 PM
    Yeh its a hilarious me too I also like Paladins with old school flavor which I think are prominently on lowkeys negative list
    68 replies | 2235 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 02:24 PM
    I do think might have beens are in there... its potentials lost and never experienced not just putting rosey eyed glasses on some experience you did have. Beyond nostalgia elements however my experience has been that games have been improved in some fundamental ways but things were also lost in the trade. I like the feel of simultaneity of action in 1e yes it was all dm adjudicated with all...
    68 replies | 2235 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 12:26 PM
    I think he even said it was a bad idea... :p I know people normally mean the opposite when they say that, but in this case I am thinking it is actually face value LOL
    78 replies | 2900 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 12:20 PM
    I thought I would say I like this much better than the other one which was just dissing although there were informative bits brought out by people on it too.
    68 replies | 2235 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 12:18 PM
    I think the groups should be different entirely myself End Balanced weapons like axes and hammers are used very similar 1handed are pretty similar 1handed endbalanced has 2 similarities. Not certain exactly what ones to have but you could have thrusting vs slashing (a lot of weapons have a primary and secondary though many could and would use all three so it was even more how you used a weapon...
    68 replies | 2235 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 11:55 AM
    That is very nice... I was still thinking a minor action un-related but this is better its like the after effect in that ti can be customized to the specific muli-round action. I like it. And of course given my purview for for martial equity now I am trying to think of something interesting for martial during the initial stages of a multi-part combo.
    78 replies | 2900 view(s)
    0 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 10:15 AM
    Yes, I mean faithfulness to what the unfolding fiction reveals about the character. Not accuracy. I was trying to build on what Campbell had said. There's the example that's been given by Umbran. Here's another example, which is based on an actual play experience I had many years ago now. The basic structure of the example is not too different from Umbran's. One of the PCs was a...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Campbell's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 04:53 AM
    I have already spoken on how social mechanics can serve as an immersion tool to help players feel what their characters should be feeling in the moment. Another crucial function can be to deliberately welcome the wholly unwelcome. It introduces outcomes which no one at the table would deliberately choose, but are nonetheless compelling. Vincent Baker calls this the fundamental purpose of RPG...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    5 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 04:27 AM
    I agree with Ovinomancer and Umbran that making a choice - even a hard choice - isn't a challenge to character and character concept of the sort that has been raised in this thread. Whether you need mechanics (social mechanics, emotional mechanics, whatever they might be) to generate that sort of challenge is a further question. My view is that you don't, although obviously they might help....
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    2 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 03:52 AM
    I have a character built on battle rager vigor his temporary hit points are a blessing of Baccus he is a priest of Baccus. He imbibes a swig after a successful hit his magic looks like he is very drunk. He is also a ritual caster and the form his comrades succor and other rituals ... look like heavy duty parties.
    28 replies | 1305 view(s)
    1 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 03:42 AM
    It means that the RPG can have story arcs comparable to other dramatic mediums. In film, think eg Casblanca. In literature, think eg The Human Factor. In genre fiction, think eg Han Solo (who, in Star Wars, turns out not to be the mercenary he thought he was) or Nameless, Jet Li's character in Hero (who in the end choose not to take the vengeance that he had pursued). Of course many other...
    638 replies | 15944 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 03:10 AM
    Both good now I want to dig through my library
    224 replies | 5484 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 03:02 AM
    Now that is brass tacks you got there
    106 replies | 2230 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Campbell's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 02:53 AM
    B/X D&D as a wonderfully tuned focused sandbox dungeon crawling game that provides clear guidance on how to play is one of the better designed role playing games ever made. It does what it does very well. It's character options are remarkably well balanced (better than any edition barring 4e). I say this as someone who did not have the joy of playing or running B/X until the 4e era. My opinions...
    68 replies | 2235 view(s)
    1 XP
  • MoonSong's Avatar
    Saturday, 13th July, 2019, 02:50 AM
    Ideally I would have ability modifiers not affecting skill bonus by themselves, I would rather high ability bonuses helped you have higher proficiency levels faster. Edit: An on topic, this isn't necessarily a judgment of value, what I got from the playtest was that PF2 somehow managed to have the bad parts of 4e without the good stuff. I'm still on the fence on whether to give it some of my...
    131 replies | 9192 view(s)
    1 XP
More Activity
About pemerton

Basic Information

Date of Birth
November 9, 1971 (47)

Statistics


Total Posts
Total Posts
20,742
Posts Per Day
4.37
Last Post
Players choose what their PCs do . . . Today 11:24 AM

Currency

Gold Pieces
61
General Information
Last Activity
Today 12:36 PM
Join Date
Friday, 21st July, 2006
Product Reviews & Ratings
Reviews Written
0

23 Friends

  1. AbdulAlhazred AbdulAlhazred is offline

    Member

    AbdulAlhazred
  2. Aldarc Aldarc is online now

    Member

    Aldarc
  3. Balesir Balesir is offline

    Member

    Balesir
  4. Campbell Campbell is offline

    Member

    Campbell
  5. chaochou chaochou is offline

    Member

    chaochou
  6. darkbard darkbard is offline

    Member

    darkbard
  7. DMZ2112 DMZ2112 is offline

    Chaotic Looseleaf

    DMZ2112
  8. Garthanos Garthanos is offline

    Member

    Garthanos
  9. heretic888 heretic888 is offline

    Member

    heretic888
  10. Hriston Hriston is online now

    Member

    Hriston
  11. LostSoul LostSoul is offline

    Member

    LostSoul
  12. Lynda Lawless Lynda Lawless is offline

    Member

    Lynda Lawless
  13. Manbearcat Manbearcat is offline

    Member

    Manbearcat
  14. Mark CMG Mark CMG is offline

    Member

    Mark CMG
  15. MoonSong MoonSong is offline

    Member

    MoonSong
  16. Nemesis Destiny Nemesis Destiny is offline

    Member

    Nemesis Destiny
  17. Neonchameleon Neonchameleon is offline

    Member

    Neonchameleon
  18. pacdidj pacdidj is offline

    Member

    pacdidj
  19. Pentius Pentius is offline

    Member

    Pentius
  20. rabindranath72 rabindranath72 is offline

    Member

    rabindranath72
  21. S'mon S'mon is offline

    Member

    S'mon
  22. steenan steenan is offline

    Member

    steenan
  23. tomja tomja is offline

    Member

    tomja
Showing Friends 1 to 23 of 23
Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast

Tuesday, 16th July, 2019


Monday, 15th July, 2019


Sunday, 14th July, 2019



Page 1 of 9 123456789 LastLast
Page 1 of 86 123456789101151 ... LastLast

Monday, 15th July, 2019

  • 10:21 AM - aramis erak mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    pemerton Many authors describe the process of authoring as letting the character speak to them, or even through them; dissociated from their own personality to some degree. So, while they are just making the choices, the choices don't always feel like choices to the authors.

Friday, 12th July, 2019

  • 12:42 AM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    ...nge based on choice alone and without any mechanic to determine a result. Even diceless systems have mechanics to determine results. All this isn't to say that the above play isn't fun -- it is. I put hard choices in front of my players all the time. Nor is it to say that you can't have character development using this play -- you clearly can. What it says is that it's not a challenge and you aren't putting your concept of the character at risk with this kind of play. In other words, it's part and parcel of the play where the player declares their intended actions only and the GM decides the results vice being able to make rich action declarations on behalf of the character where both the action and the outcome are determined. In this play, you're staking that action AND outcome and a failure may mean you get both a different action and outcome than you intended, because that's what was at stake. I tried earlier to explore what kind of play this might be, and no one except pemerton has bothered to engage it. I suppose it fell flat for the rest of you, either in conceiving the play presented or caring about it.

Monday, 8th July, 2019

  • 11:07 PM - Aldarc mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    ambiguous: doubtful or uncertain especially from obscurity or indistinctness. NO it is NOT ambiguous at all. That is how it is mostly done in RPGs. The player decides describes what his character is doing or trying to do. THEN the GM takes over and describes the results.Apart from numerous RPGs that are exceptions to this, which have been mentioned previously in this thread. So we return to "ambiguous." Catching up on this thread after a weekend vacation: As to the wink, I agree, there probably is a scenario where it makes sense, but it's going to be off the beaten track as far as systems go.I don't necessarily think it's that unusual. Pemerton has mentioned this in the context of Prince Valiant/Pendragon and Cortex+. I am familiar with a similar idea in Monster Hearts (a PbtA game). Monster Hearts was really the game that opened my eye to this sort of thinking. You are playing teenage monsters and the like (think Twilight, Teen Wolf, etc.), but teenage sexuality also plays an important role for the game. One of the things that can happen is that while you may - with all your self-professed player "agency" - declare that your character is straight, you may also find yourself in a situation where you feel a sudden, unexpected romantic attraction to a NPC of the same sex. What now? How do you choose to react to that real emotional response? Your male character's heart just unexpected melted in the presence of another guy. To me, that's where the actual player agency lies. It lies in deciding how our characters choose to respond to their emotional and psychological urges rather than in deciding the particular emotional and p...
  • 02:14 PM - FrogReaver mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    pemerton i think there is a pre-step I’ve been missing that changes everything in d&d I cannot role play the character that can never lose at combat as such a character isn’t supported by the rules of the game. The pre- step is that I as a player don’t conceive of a character that the rules wouldn’t support so in the case of the maiden winking melting my heart I can imagine a game that possesses such a mechanic so that I know not to conceive of a character possessing a trait that would be against said mechanic. Maybe that hat is the real crux of the issue.
  • 02:13 PM - FrogReaver mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    pemerton i think there is a pre-step I’ve been missing that changes everything in d&d I cannot role play the character that can never lose at combat as such a character isn’t supported by the rules of the game. The pre- step is that I as a player don’t conceive of a character that the rules wouldn’t support so in the case of the maiden winking melting my heart I can imagine a game that possesses such a mechanic so that I know not to conceive of a character possessing a trait that would be against said mechanic. Maybe that hat is the real crux of the issue.

Sunday, 7th July, 2019

  • 04:19 PM - Fenris-77 mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    pemerton - the phrase monster abilities was more shorthand for mechanically supported game actions I guess. Obviously not too many flesh golems are dropping successful come hither winks in any system (although now that I've said that, it is going to come up in my game because it's awesome). I was more railing against impact by fiat rather than mechanic. Players agree to the mechanics in a game when they agree to play, and if the game they agreed to play happens to have seduction mechanics then fine, that's the game. I would propose however that there is a pretty vast gulf between the results you list, such as complication dice, or any other complicating modifier, and straight dictated action. I'm fine with the former but not the latter. My apologies if that wasn't as clear as it could have been.
  • 02:45 PM - Fenris-77 mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    The wink doesn't pose a problem for me as a PC action, although generally there would also be a mechanic involved there but there doesn't have to be. As an NPC action with a dictated result it's ... wacky. Even if you could find a system that supported it I'd still be against it. Obviously the extent of the forced action plays a big role too. If the forced action just consists of telling the player they get swollen love nodes, which is more an invitation to action than forced action anyway, I'm fine with it. But as soon as the DM says something like "she beckons you with a finger and follow her out the door" then I'm firmly against, and will reiterate my earlier contention that this doesn't happen in RPGs generally so is probably a silly example. I don't really feel the need to explain how monster abilities with mechanics are a different class of example. The minion example is easier to deal with (I'm with pemerton on this). The internal consistency of a lot of fantasy fiction fits (and RPGs) the minion example to a tee. Those randos at the bar are indeed panes of glass to the PC and not to each other, and the fact that they are so is part of the unstated contract a player signs when they agree to play said RPG. Just like the fact that they aren't panes of glass in grittier RPGs is also understood by everyone involved at the outset of the game.

Thursday, 4th July, 2019

  • 07:27 PM - Maxperson mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    ...my character sometimes is much less of an imposition, especially since I can impose back. For me it's not about how much authority I have, though. I could have more authority over other aspects of the game and I would feel the same way. For me it's about the PC being mine. I'm the only one, barring some sort of mechanical means like charm, who gets to control what he feels and does. If you look at this issue only from the point of view of D&D, then you're missing the forest for the tree. Especially since you actually give up far more authority in D&D since everything happens at the permission of the GM. D&D strongly relies on principled play by the GM to protect the limited authority of the players and this principled play is not explicit and often assumed by veterens of play to be understood. At least, their understanding of it us assumed, which is the primary cause of many disagreements on this board. I understand that. While I haven't played as many different games you or pemerton has, I have played other RPGs and experienced differences. I'm not saying the games that allow others to assert control over PCs are bad. They just aren't for me.
  • 03:42 AM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    ...etermine the characters actions in that world. That's not what begs the question means. I say it means that, when you have the option to make choices, you do so from the role you have assumed. You're assigning a separate axis here -- what limitations exist on choice -- to roleplaying. It doesn't belong there. This is, again, your preference for how to play the game leaking into definitions that have nothing to do with that preference. There's no way that the GM declaring actions for the PC doesn't impact what we are talking about above. It may have a minimal effect, but an effect it does have. - And more importantly, if I am right about what it means to take on an imaginary role in a fictional world, it by definition precludes the player from doing that for the period of time the GM is controlling their PC's actions. You are not right, this is what pretty much everyone in this thread is contesting with you. Maybe pick up on that? But, as an example, the play that pemerton gave for AW -- in the fail state, the GM has carte blanche to dictate actions for the PC. This doesn't reduce the roleplaying occurring, it limits when the player can make choices. Orthogonal to roleplaying. I'm not sure what you mean by control of PC actions in failure conditions. Maybe you can elaborate. Sigh, it's been mentioned a number of times in this thread. If you're only going to read/engage with posts aimed at you, then I'm not going to bother to try to restate those posts you've skipped. If your definition of taking on an imaginary role in a shared fiction is as I elaborated on above then it most definitely does impact their ability to take on an imaginary role in a shared fiction. Don't see it. I'm still roleplaying that character just as much as I was -- I'm still representing that role within the shared fiction when I have a choice to make. Frankly, your argument is steeped in a single-point-of-view of how RPGs are played. It shows a lack of understa...
  • 01:40 AM - Manbearcat mentioned pemerton in post Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
    https://www.enworld.org/forum/images/Styles/Blackend/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by pemertonhttps://www.enworld.org/forum/images/Styles/Blackend/buttons/viewpost-right.pngGame systems that are generally oriented towards such play include AD&D, CoC, Vampire: the Masquerade... Three radically dissimilar games. Only very, very tacitly following this thread, but this caught my eye in a "what in the world...?" sort of way. I think this may in fact be a source of dissonance that you and I have in some of these conversations, particularly where it pertains to The Forge and, more specifically, "system matters." The most fundamental core mechanic of VtM and White Wolf games is "The Golden Rule" or "there are no rules" or, apropos, "system doesn't matter." @pemerton is referring to AD&D 2e above (surely), not 1e. AD&D 2e went all-in on this ethos (unlike OD&D, 1e, and B/X). CoC does as well. The lifeblood of those three gaming systems are overwhelmingly GM Force and opacity, inadequacy, incoherency, or impotency of action resolutions mechanics (which, not coincidentally for...

Monday, 1st July, 2019

  • 03:09 PM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    ...t action(and all of its micro-actions) concludes, there is the result of that action, the softening of her heart. The act of winking concludes before there is a softening of the heart. In a game, I don't get to declare that I am going to pull out my sword, threaten the prince, have him concede half of his lands to me, go farm those lands, harvest the crops, and then sell them all as a single action. Is there, maybe, a middle ground between 'I pull my sword" and the entirely of what you posit? Could, maybe, discussion happen about things in that middle ground? In other words, no, you can't do the bottom in any game, but that's because you're not engaging the fiction of the scene or the genre of the game and are, in fact, being a jerk. Can we please dispense with the "but if a jerk does it" arguments? Stating the result of your action isn't the same as assuming success. That's why games have resolution mechanics. In your above, it fails because there are multiple goals. pemerton's example doesn't fail because it's a single goal -- soften the heart of the maiden. The action is to wink. The difference between what you're trying to say and what pemerton is saying is that, in your preference, the player can state their goal as information to the GM, but the GM will decide both what a success and what a failure will look like. The other way to do it is to take the player's goal as the only success option. In other word, if a success is rolled, then the GM's job is to narrate how they player's goal comes to be given the player's actions. The GM doesn't get to decide what success looks like. That said, actions and goals need to be rooted in the fiction of the moment. Your example runs off into future goals that aren't established as at stake in the current scene. This is a player violation of the game construct, and is just bad play, not a problem with the player getting to say what success is.
  • 03:01 PM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    The premise statement is a longstanding falsehood, all too often unchallenged. Players decide what their character attempts, not what they do. GM's decide what the PC's do, based upon the stated attempt, the rules, and their common sense, and sometimes, their story sense. Players may or may not be deciding how their PC's feel; many systems allow forced emotional states, which only works when players agree to those stakes, but can be fun for some. That is, indeed, one way it happens, and one of the ways pemerton noted in his OP. There are other ways, though, like the other one in the OP, that you've dismissed as a falsehood. Given that it exists in a number of games, and can exist in even more, you should reconsider whether or not you've grasped the intent of the OP and whether or not you're the one engaged in a falsehood. As pemerton noted, Burning Wheel's core loop is opposing truth statements about the world, on the player's the other the GM's, which the dice then decide which occurs. If the GM wins, the GM get to both narrate their outcome AND any actions the PC takes to realize that outcome. If the player wins, they get to do the same. This fundamentally disagrees with your universal assertion. "There are other ways than these," to paraphrase. I like Blades in the Dark, which does a similar thing. The player nominates both the action and the outcome -- what they want to happen and how they're doing it. The GM then sets the risk of that action (how bad will the consequences o...

Tuesday, 25th June, 2019

  • 12:21 PM - Aldarc mentioned pemerton in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    Just realize that the definition of narrating a scene in no way actually implies or explicitly says that there is any passive listening going on at all. That probably the reason that so many people are pushing back against you is that you are working from a definition that no one else is.I don't think Bedrockgames is mistaken here. This sense of literary prose narration happening at you, with the players in more passive roles as an audience to GM performance, was present as far back as the OP of pemerton's thread that spawned this one. He is working from a definition or understanding that others had been using.

Monday, 24th June, 2019

  • 01:21 AM - Hussar mentioned pemerton in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    I can walk into your house and tell you which bedroom is a guest bedroom just by looking (assuming you have one). That's not really a stumbling block to me. But, effectively, pemerton, we're back to vocabulary differences. You're simply using simpler language. So, is it fair to say that the division, for you, between conversational and prose is vocabulary choice? After all, you didn't change any word order. So, is it down to vocabulary, yes or no?

Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 02:26 PM - lowkey13 mentioned pemerton in post Formatting- Quotes Not Coming Out Correctly
    Hi Everybody! (HI DR. NICK!) Now tell Dr. Nick where is the trouble. ...so, @Dannyalcatraz first pointed out a problem in my posts, specifically, this one- https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659985-Why-are-we-okay-with-violence-in-RPGs&p=7618903&viewfull=1#post7618903 Since then, two other commenters have noted the same problem. @pemerton @Manbearcat Q. What is the problem? A. I don't know- I can't see it! Everything looks good to me. But it looks like, from what is in Danny's post- https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659985-Why-are-we-okay-with-violence-in-RPGs&p=7619116&viewfull=1#post7619116 That my "quotes" are disappearing. It seems that pemerton reports it as a text formatting issue. So, I think this is recent? Maybe an "https:" change? And it's not universal ... it looks fine to me. Quotes that I use from someone else seem fine ... I think it might just be a combination of: Using the "quote" feature around text that I paste into the text box, and paste as "plain text formatting" (in order to avoid html issues). But I'd like the Powers That Be to look at this, and either tell me it's a bug (with a fix on the server side?) or that I need to do things differently so everyone can see what I'm doing; I'm guessing that this bug has led to some recent miscommunications. :) EDIT- Here's a test: Nece...
  • 02:48 AM - Hriston mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine. I don't know about @pemerton’s post, but that post of mine you quoted was not made in reply to you or anything you said. I made it in response to @Hussar’s post which directly preceded mine and which asked why dungeon dressing appears in most editions of the DMG.

Wednesday, 12th June, 2019

  • 09:41 PM - hawkeyefan mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    All substance, no style, and you are just playing a boardgame ... or a wargame. All style, no substance, and you are just doing community theater. That's why it's neither ... or both. It tastes great, and is less filling. (Its a STYLISTIC .... SUBSTANCE, or, put another way, it's a ROLE PLAYING .... GAME ;) ). Yeah, I think I acknowledged that in my post, and I think we've made that clear throughout the thread, despite proponents of either using extreme examples as support. Both are necessary. But I would imagine that most of us feel that one is more important than the other, such as pemerton's stated preference in the OP. To use your comparison (dated though it is, I sadly get it :p), for some folks, lite beer being less filling may be more important to the taste. For others, the opposite is true. While it's both, what matters to people is, I think, what's interesting to discuss.
  • 07:40 PM - uzirath mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Look at the comments you have made in defense of this theory. Long, lengthy, well-written, good grammar, decent vocabulary, engaged with the argument, and so on. Sure. Yes. My framing, narration, gaming conversation, etc., is probably, by some metrics, more "literary" than someone with less formal education, less experience with public speaking, etc. My point wasn't solely about my experience though. I teach RPGs to children ranging from ages 6-14 (and some older). Many of them do not have well-honed skill with language. Many of them succeed at running (and playing in) awesome games, despite that weakness. I am not arguing that good narration can't help—skillful presentation matters in RPGs as in other mediums—but I've slowly come to accept pemerton's basic premise that it is not the most significant element. I regularly see GMs with strong language skills struggling to attract players to their tables because they talk too much or only want the story to go their way. For the kids who stick with it, there is much to enjoy: the GMs may write great descriptions, have good voice control, use spooky foreshadowing, etc. But, often, the table nearby, with a GM who is flustered and has weak vocabulary manages to be more popular because that GM is refereeing a more engaging story, a story primarily written by the other players, dependent on interesting (or hilarious or gruesome) interactions between characters and the fictional environment. Similarly, in college, I had the opportunity to do a two-year folklore study of RPGs. (This was amazing. Still pinching myself.) I referred in my last post to the "torture" of typing up transcripts. That was a big part of the project. I ended up with hundreds of hours of recordings of live D&D games....
  • 06:29 PM - darkbard mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Since I clearly lack the cognitive ability to understand the [I]context of this discussion [...] why don't you explain it to me like I'm a slightly dumb golden retriever, since it is very very tiring for people to keep saying "But you just don't understand what the OP really meant" without proffering an explanation. Histrionic much? Look, if you find this so "very tiring," what, then, is the purpose of your reentry into the discussion every few hundred posts? Clearly you must derive something from this discussion beyond the occasional impulse to meet head and keyboard? Good? So tell me, in your own words, what exactly the intent behind the term "literary" is, and why that distinction matters for the post your responded to. :) As I stated pretty early in this thread, I believe any attempt to define some immutable, univeral definition for "literary/literature" is a fool's errand. What matters for this thread is not fixing some definition but rather pemerton's argument that what makes TTRPGs unique and distinct from literature is the framing of situations as a call to action on the part of the PC-inhabiting-player over descriptive flourishes as performance for performance's sake. While this thread has occasionally offered some other interesting discussion, I don't believe squabbling over definitions has provided anything really useful. So, no, I won't define "exactly the intent behind the term 'literary'" beyond what I have said above: this thread's main thrust is about framing engaging calls to action as core to TTRPGing over performance for performance's sake (though, and perhaps I separate myself from pemerton on this, I don't think this is a universal statement: I think there are gamestyles and players who value performance for performance's sake over the engaging call to action).

Tuesday, 11th June, 2019

  • 12:38 PM - Aldarc mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Though you may have had this game in mind for your OP, pemerton, Dungeon World is built on what you describe: GM frames the scene - turns to the PC: "What do you do?" - and then the PC narrates how their character develops or responds to the fiction. Depending upon the results triggered by the dice, the GM then may shift the fictional framing of the story and repeat the cycle.


Page 1 of 86 123456789101151 ... LastLast
No results to display...

Tuesday, 16th July, 2019

  • 02:41 PM - Umbran quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    [MENTION=22779] But unless the dice are rigged then fails are possible, in which case fail scenarios are possible resolutions, and there is no narrowing of the range of possible resolution. What part of "particularly on a success" didn't connect for you? Your response to that is to note that the failure case is always infinite, so there's no narrowing at all? Really?
  • 08:42 AM - Hussar quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    Your example doesn't show any narrowing of possible results. The scenario you describe is a possible failure narration; and it could be a success narration if that is what the player decides his/her PC searches for. But, what it cannot be is a success narration if the player decided that is not what the PC searches for. IOW, Lanefan's point about narrowing possible resolutions does stand. A success can only be what the player decides.
  • 12:52 AM - Tony Vargas quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    This is why the baseline argument fails -- D&D is a specific model, not a general one. You can't logically argue from the specific to the general. This is amplified in cases where the model is of poor skill, such as D&D and social skills. As I said before, the D&D way is akready endlessly argued from within the ruleset, so hiw can it be an effective model for general discussion.It's Sisyphean, but starting with the familiar concepts of D&D, and explaining the broader alternatives in those terms, would be using it as a baseline, but not assuming it as the only thing. Maybe? This, frankly, smells of "but if you just agree with me upfront, you'll see that you agree with me."There's some of that in "if you'd just master this other system and accept it's paradigm, you'd understand..." This is an interesting question - in general, and about D&D play: To what extent is the GM permitted to rewrite player-authored PC backstory by drawing upon a combination of (i) situation and stakes an...

Monday, 15th July, 2019

  • 09:13 PM - Lanefan quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    By my count, there are only three recurrent posters in this thread who make D&D the baseline assumption: Lanefan, FrogReaver and Maxperson. I'm not interested in talking primarily about D&D. It's not a system I'm playing at the moment, and I doubt think that focusing on it is going to shed any particular light on the questions raised in the OP or subsequently in the thread. If you think that there is some aspect of D&D mechanics or play that will help address those questions, then by all means post it.Even though this thread's in 'General RPG', given that historically D&D has represented more or less 80% of the RPG market and player base (and still does) talking primarily about anything else is going to quickly send much of the potential readership off elsewhere. Using other systems for comparison is great. Ignoring the primary system, however, seems a bit foolish. This is an interesting question - in general, and about D&D play: To what extent is the GM permitted to rewrite player-a...
  • 08:56 PM - Aebir-Toril quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    In your case, you seem to know both BW and D&D, which are the two systems I referenced in the post of mine that you quoted. Do you have any thoughts about this mind flayer and false memories example that might draw on either of the systems? Or if you want to engage it by reference to another system, that would be interesting too! I'm not familiar with the example in question, what page was this on?
  • 08:55 PM - Aebir-Toril quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    In your case, you seem to know both BW and D&D, which are the two systems I referenced in the post of mine that you quoted. Do you have any thoughts about this mind flayer and false memories example that might draw on either of the systems? Or if you want to engage it by reference to another system, that would be interesting too! I'm not familiar wiht the example in question, mind elucidating it for me?
  • 04:01 PM - Ovinomancer quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    Do you have much experience with 4e D&D? It's a bit of an open question exactly what tools 4e provides, because the skill challenge is - as presented - such an open-ended or un-nailed-down framework that (experience suggests) needs users to bring ideas and/or experience from outside to really get the best out of it. I think a skill challenge might be able to handle the scenario you're describing. Of course it would depend on table norms - and of course so does everything, but for this sort of thing among D&D players the need for clear norms I think is especially important. In my long-running 4e game - currently on hiatus while one of the players finishes renovating a house, which is a multi-year project! - we've had memory stuff happen with the PC wizard/invoker who turned out to be a deva invoker/wizard and who has memories of 1000 lifetimes. There's been GM narration as well as PC narration of memories, but not quite as confronting/contested as what you're describing. So I can't say ...
  • 01:19 PM - Aebir-Toril quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    This is an interesting question - in general, and about D&D play: To what extent is the GM permitted to rewrite player-authored PC backstory by drawing upon a combination of (i) situation and stakes and (ii) failed checks. In BW (for instance) I think this is fair game. The only version of D&D I can think of able to handle this is 4e. I don't really see how it would be done in AD&D. And from what your saying it's not really feasible in 5e. If we cannot agree to argue from some base point, then you cannot assume that everyone will know every system. Realistically, almost every RPG player knows D&D, not because it's the best, but because it is the definitive RPG. Thus, D&D is not the only thing we should discuss, but you have to remember that it is what many people assume as the base. If you would like to have a different base, please say so.
  • 11:39 AM - Ovinomancer quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    This is an interesting question - in general, and about D&D play: To what extent is the GM permitted to rewrite player-authored PC backstory by drawing upon a combination of (i) situation and stakes and (ii) failed checks. In BW (for instance) I think this is fair game. The only version of D&D I can think of able to handle this is 4e. I don't really see how it would be done in AD&D. And from what your saying it's not really feasible in 5e. I think, in D&D, it would be a serious overstep to do so. In the scene above, the player threw me for a loop. Previously, the player had established that the character had no recollection of their time before being a thrall. But, in the scene, the player revealed that they dud recall. I had been planning to offer a way to recover memory in exchange for helping this mindflayer, but that went right out the window (hold on lightly!). Instead, I had the mindflayer insinuate that these memories may well be false and dangled a deeper mystery as maybe exi...

Sunday, 14th July, 2019

  • 09:03 PM - Tony Vargas quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    The most interesting thing for me at the moment - is what are the necessary conditions for a genuine challenge to character concept? Brief side observation/perspective: Even just being able to model a valid genre character concept is still a challenge RPGs aren't exactly all up to, even though some have been doing it for a long time. I think the best way to address that is to ask, what character from such a system can't be played identically in a D&D type system (assuming same overall setting etc). ... Anyways, Since D&D largely leaves personality free form, then all the personalities allowable in exalted are available in D&D and all the ones not allowable in it are as well. Even if that were true (D&D class & alignment, among other things, do put constraints on PC personality), it wouldn't be comparing Exalted to D&D, but Exalted to freestyle RP.
  • 07:41 PM - Aebir-Toril quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    (1) This thread is in general RPG. Not D&D. There's a reason for that. (2) I'm not saying that players should or shouldn't do anything in every system. The OP invites discussion about various ways in which true descriptions of PC actions might be established. The current discussion has moved on a bit from that, to also talk about how true descriptions of PC choices, PC emotional states, etc might be established. (3) If someone's answer to the questions posed in the OP is the way D&D does it, end of story then they're welcome not to participat in the thread. If they're going to make ungrounded assertions that nothing else is really possible, well that's not very helpful either and is fair game for clarification or correction. (4) The most interesting thing for me at the moment - obviously I can't speak for others - is what are the necessary conditions for a genuine challenge to character concept? This is what @Ovinomancer and I have disagreed about - I believe without undue acrimony! I would ...
  • 05:15 PM - Maxperson quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    You're not learning it. You're deciding it - as seems evident in your use of the verb determining in the first quote. Maybe it's a hard decision, but it's a decision, not a discovery. As I said, I can't see how this puts the least bit of pressure on the player's conception of his/her PC's character. (I guess it could if the player had said of his PC both I am chaste and I will do whatever it takes to preserve the kingdome. But the conflict there is so obvious and so shallow that I think we can discount it as a working example.) This is where you go very wrong. Before the hard decision, I did not know X about my character. Until I made the decision, X was still unknown to me. After the decision, X is now known to me. That's a discovery about the character, which makes it something I learned. How many times over the years after someone ends up in a unique situation and makes a hard decision, have we heard, "So and so really learned something about himself."? The idea that decisions cann...
  • 05:06 PM - Aebir-Toril quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    Before you posted that, @Campbell already posted on outline of mechanics from Exalted which contradict what you said: the player in Exalted (i) does not sit out of the loop, and (ii) does have input on how his/her PC would react. Further upthread I posted the Apocalypse World mechanics for PvP seduction/maipulation. In that system the player gets to decide exacty how his/her PC reacts, but is also subject to mechanical effects depending upon the persuading player's degree of success on the check. And I've also mentioned (several times) the MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic mechanics, which allow the placing of a complication, or emotional or mental stress, on a PC - and when the player has his/her PC attempt an action which would be hindered by that stress or complication then the relevant die is added to the opposing pool. (Before you ask, what if it's an unopposed check, all checks in that sysemt are opposed.) The player is never "out of the loop" because s/he builds his/her own pull to resist any attemp...
  • 05:02 PM - FrogReaver quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    … Maybe it's a hard decision, but it's a decision, not a discovery. As I said, I can't see how this puts the least bit of pressure on the player's conception of his/her PC's character. (I guess it could if the player had said of his PC both I am chaste and I will do whatever it takes to preserve the kingdome... I find it amazing how that when you really dig in deep that you agree with me
  • 05:00 PM - Aebir-Toril quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    It's epiphenomenal. Contrast the paladin example: the killing isn't epiphenomenal. It's an actual thing that has occurred in the fiction, which refutes the paladin's self-conception (I'm not a killer) which has been held up until that point. Similarly for the outcome of a Duel of Wits. Which goes back to the point about play experience. Thinking really hard about what you want your character to do, and then choosing it, is not the same play experience as being forced to recognise that your character is not who you thought they were. And this is where the issue of familiarity with other systems and other techniques comes in. Your posts in this thread give the impression that your RPG experience does not extend far beyond AD&D 2nd ed and similar sorts of systems (eg a fairly common approach to 3E and 5e D&D; maybe a bit of GURPS or HERO or even DragonQuest played in a similar style; but not a lot else). If that impression is a mistaken one than I apologise - but I certainly don't get the feel ...
  • 04:41 PM - FrogReaver quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    I guess you can assert things in ignorance, yet avoid error, if you get lucky. Not ignorance to know a general truth. They are completely wrong when it comes to other systems such as the ones that @chaochou has mentioned.[/QUOTE] One example works wonders. If it's that easy to disprove me then provide an example that does so.
  • 04:33 PM - FrogReaver quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    The basic point is that, in the scenarios you keep putting forward, nothing happens to the PC's inner being or self-conception that the player did not choose. Right. Did you expect me to disagree with that? That's precisely what I'm saying. So the player choose that which s/he prefers. Depending on mood, table practices, etc, this might be the thing most likely to produce victory in the quest, or the thing most likely to be seen as entertaining Yes those are possibilities (and occasionaly the last has it's place IMO), but not necessities or even the thing s/he thinks is truest to the character as s/he conceives of it. Well that would be the ultimate goal. If that's not being done at least most of the time then maybe a different system would be better for that player. Whatever the player chooses, s/he is not forced to confront something new or unexpected about his/her PC. Yes you are. When the choice is between two opposed goals/personality traits/etc then you are most certainly ...
  • 04:28 PM - FrogReaver quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    This completely misunderstands @chaochou's point. As I posted upthread, "cheating" or acting on out-of-game motivations has nothing to do with what anyone is talking about in this thread. Right, but it did have to do with what chaochou said. In fact he didn't even defend it after I called him out on it. Then it isn't persuasion. I simply choose whatever is most expedient and justify my choice however I please. That was his rebuttal to the player choosing. There's nothing else that can be referring to except players that always make the most expedient decision (aka cheating)
  • 04:08 PM - FrogReaver quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    I'll leave the fidelity claim to one side. But the second claim is an empirical one. I'd be curious to see if it's true. Personally I doubt it - I don't have experience with Exalted, but in my experience with other systems that provide various sorts of systematic support for engagement with PC motivations and emotions the range of characters played - when considered in proportion to the overall number played - tends to be increased, not narrowed. I think the best way to address that is to ask, what character from such a system can't be played identically in a D&D type system (assuming same overall setting etc). On a side note: I do think the typical D&D character is likely more basic (maybe more cartoonish) than the ones such systems always produce. So there is the degree of mandating a more complex character that is appealing. But I don't think D&D is incapable of producing such complex characters even if the players playing it may fail to typically do so. Anyways to answer the question -...
  • 01:02 PM - Ovinomancer quoted pemerton in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    I can see why you say this. But for me, this brings us back to Campbell's remarks: The absence of choice in the example I provided occurred at the point of the killing. At that point, thie player learns - without having any say over it - that his PC is a killer. At that point, playing the character with integrity generates the crisis. There were subsequent events, too, that played on the crisis. That's part of the GM's job (in my view) - once the pressure point is clear, the GM needs to work it, not relax it, so that the player isn't spared the consequence of what has happened. This isn't quite GM decides, but it's a definite demand on the GM that puts the GM in a very different role from (say) the impartial GMing of Gygaxian D&D, or the most common approach to Classic Traveller. The example of play invovling Nighcrawler that I posted upthread is somewhat similar in these respects. Events unfold which are not fully under the player's control (due to the use of action resolution mecha...


pemerton's Downloads

  Filename Total Downloads Rating Files Uploaded Last Updated

Most Recent Favorite Generators/Tables

View All Favorites