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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 02:01 PM
    Yes that is less of an issue in 4e, potentially at least for saves and armor class using quick predictive thinking (Int) is enabled for those in a solid way. Some I have seen advocate bringing back Fort/Ref/Wil for 5e instead of having mostly unused saves. Perhaps they could allow initiative based on intelligence. While in 4e the foundation of value "in combat" is covered, they could have...
    33 replies | 1133 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Today, 12:59 PM
    That's a helluva a lot of damage reduction, especially against a Tier 1 party. I don't think that's a game design issue, but, rather, a GM encounter design one. Both of which seem like an adventure design issues. Which is naturally a problem. Characters should also start play with cyphers. Maybe. There are other Cypher System games also produced by MCG that marginalize the need for...
    4 replies | 315 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 11:18 AM
    Much better possibility than I thought actually (but it binds a lot of flavor things things like spell casting and a pet into the class too); The savant is closer but has a bad bad thing it takes all the way to level 6 before getting Brains over Brawn. (making it fundamentally Mad for basic functions ie attacking up until that point err oops)
    33 replies | 1133 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 04:43 AM
    And a custom encounter power for the The Intelligent Fighter I considered making it against Reflexes.
    33 replies | 1133 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 03:33 AM
    Everybody must get spammed...
    37 replies | 3476 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 03:30 AM
    The idea was rather popular during the play testing if I recall. Another cost that we see in 5e is forgoing an attack ie conglomerating an attack it could take 2 of your attacks. You proabably do not do anything but this on your turn... without an action surge or something (maybe ok at really high level to do another attack) I would estimate you shouldn't be able to do it till 5e level 8...
    72 replies | 2031 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 11:40 PM
    Their design philosophy seems to be a game of mother may I See I can fail too.
    72 replies | 2031 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:11 PM
    Ah good call I noticed it first in the Players Handbook never saw any of the supplements but it was very evocative even the bits in the PHB. When the PHB mentions Belisarius it makes my face light up.
    62 replies | 1825 view(s)
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  • MoonSong's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:01 PM
    I've lost count of how many bots it has attracted. I've reported quite a few, I bet Umbran dreams me.
    37 replies | 3476 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:49 PM
    YES the number of fighters is not even interesting to me
    60 replies | 2084 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    60 replies | 2084 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:09 PM
    How about word count in system dedicated to explaining grappling as one axis?
    48 replies | 1460 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:10 PM
    I have variously encountered this issue as well, depending on party composition. One potential quick work around is to remove static damage and replace it with variable die damage. So Light weapons do d4; Medium weapons do d6; and Heavy weapons do d8. Or knock them up a die. See what works best for your group. This gives a bit more chance that some weapons can exceed typical damage reduction. The...
    4 replies | 315 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:15 PM
    failed that one. 4e was a bit conservative perhaps. Even some a cool move like "Come and get it" was such a short range that its pretty realistic. OK how about that for a challenge... do Come and Get it in 5e.
    72 replies | 2031 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:08 PM
    The fighter finally having the ability to actually defend could probably be mentioned (I know its in roles but this and warlord are two archetypes which were never mechanically fulfilled til 4e). However for me its pretty much mechanically everything with the above being just the iceberg tip and its almost easier to mention things I didn't like
    36 replies | 1184 view(s)
    3 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:57 PM
    The significantly static hitpoints and potentially bursty damage reminds me of RuneQuest but with the bursts somewhat more under player choice rather fixes the problems it had with not feeling heroic.
    253 replies | 27175 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 06:01 AM
    You could add generic stances to enable the fighting desparately... etc.
    41 replies | 3997 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 05:59 AM
    IT was in some ways better but it was lost completely when 3e came out and it has been gone ever since. We are now moving chess pieces in turn and hoping interlacing out of turn actions will remind us of simultaneous action. Basically I have considered how to actually bring that simultaneous resolution back while allowing interesting choices -- a form of 5 pointed star roshambo might be a nice...
    41 replies | 3997 view(s)
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:39 AM
    Yeah, there was a suggestion by Tony Vargas (in the other thread IIRC) about the minion/elite 'mode' thing. It could also be called 'aggressive' and 'defensive' or whatever, and there are a few options for implementing it, but that would get you some of it. You could 'go aggro' for a big move, and toss out your daily. HoML has 'vitality points' instead of AP/HS, you can burn them to play your...
    41 replies | 3997 view(s)
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:33 AM
    If it is a FAST iteration of turns, then it is fine. That seems better to me then turning the turn sequence into pea soup, which is what 4e ended up doing.
    41 replies | 3997 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:36 AM
    Arguably Battle==War Master==Lord It just doesn't quite do the job The maneuvers just cannot be used often enough and most lack tactician feel le intelligence driven / affecting whole party for ex and the fighter lacks an appropriate warlordy fighting style. I think it is silly to worry about it becoming a vehicle for the warlord its rather meant to be.
    72 replies | 2031 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 02:57 PM
    4e: * The WARLORD * Power Sources and Class Roles: This led to 4e having the gumption and vision to pull the trigger on something that not even 2e could commit to doing : removing all divine magic classes from Dark Sun. * Class parity and balance * Scene/narrative-based mechanics (AEDU) * Martial classes had interesting and thematic tactical choices that were typically privileged to...
    36 replies | 1184 view(s)
    6 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 02:39 PM
    I seem to recall that a lot of people also use Mythras, which derives from BRP, as a more generic Homeric fantasy sort of game.
    19 replies | 721 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 02:27 PM
    Sure, but it does inform how I contextualize the conversation of this thread. I don't necessarily think, for example, in terms of a personal preference for "conversational" vs. "literary" narration, but, instead, in terms of communicating what's important in the game fiction for players to engage the scene. The stylistic aesthetic is of lesser importance than the pragmatics. This matter can...
    24 replies | 764 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 12:46 PM
    I feel like the actual discussion in that thread was about the primary GM role that new gamemasters should focus on learning: scene-framing for player agency or literary performance. The whole conversational vs. literary narration bit was a red herring conversation that we unwittingly got roped into when literary performance camp asked us to conceive of GMing as a conversation without the...
    24 replies | 764 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 10:13 AM
    A subjective feel : Battle Ready makes creating a fighter feel slightly different like a tax on something a fighter should just have has been lifted. It also acknowledges that initiative can involve deciding/thinking and agressing faster which may be more reliable than reacting faster.
    33 replies | 1133 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 10:05 AM
    Arguably in 4e a Dex Fighter til Slayer came out was basically a Ranger/Rogue Roleplaying baggage ensued. (although very flexible baggage) with honorable mention to certain builds which have it secondary. I said "justified" dump stat. EVEN if you forego control, abilities that work in one arena are enhancing the other as well. Statistically your attributes are more broadly valuable by...
    33 replies | 1133 view(s)
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  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 04:49 AM
    B/X - The tight, holistic focus of design around its play paradigm. - The Exploration Turn/Rest > Wandering Monster Clock > Resource Attrition/Risk Reward Cycle Loop. - Monster Reactions/Morale. - Gold for xp. 4e - (Again) The tight, holistic focus of design around its play paradigm.
    36 replies | 1184 view(s)
    5 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 04:48 AM
    The following shows the XML for loading the Battle Ready class feature in to the offline Character Builder. And yup it works ;) it also takes a modification of the base class. <RulesElement name ="Battle Ready" type="Class Feature" internal-id="ID_LAD_CLASS_FEATURE_BR1234" source="Martial Power III" revision-date="6/16/2019" > <Flavor>Most people react to the onset of a fight for you it...
    33 replies | 1133 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 02:23 PM
    I was considering some of this kind of flexibility Modify Eldritch Knight Arcane Weaponmastery at level 3 when you chose this subclass you have begun to integrate you spellcraft with your weapon use for purposes of attack and magic. Choose one mental attribute this attribute as your spell casting attribute. This attribute becomes the basis of your attack roll and a penalty to saving throws...
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 02:15 PM
    Establishing expectations has a value I suppose even if you have to use the R word.
    31 replies | 918 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 01:36 PM
    LOL Martial Maneuvers
    64 replies | 1756 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 01:33 PM
    Very much this
    64 replies | 1756 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 01:00 PM
    Another ingredient to the mix which I didnt mention because it wasnt important at level 1 the Swordmage class had plenty of teleportation/blink magics Alex had a short range teleport attack once a day at level one but if he makes it to level 20 will have Omnipresent Assault where he blinks around the battlefield as a Ghostblade and launches an attack against every enemy in sight (no range limit...
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Hriston's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 12:49 PM
    Disadvantage on attacks against an unseen target applies to this attack because the attacker is seen so doesnít have advantage for being an unseen attacker. There is no advantage for unseen missiles.
    19 replies | 609 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 05:47 AM
    Okay So far Is this what we have From Eldritch Knight 3 Levels definitely has components which were basically just flavor in 4e - Weapon Bond to be specific. Savant: Smart Defense. 1 Level While you are wearing armor, you gain a +1 bonus to AC. In addition, while wearing light armor if you have one hand free, you gain a bonus to AC equal to your Intelligence modifier (up to a maximum no...
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 03:54 AM
    That definitely has the magical defender angle in there.
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 03:53 AM
    Examined this closer and wow.... that is definitely the right direction
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 03:19 AM
    Ah thanks yes flavor is definitely more important in that regards.
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 03:17 AM
    I find it kind of weird that mage armor is Dex bound.... The battlemaster certainly has some cool bits to it. Their abilities aren't actually at will either. The white lotus riposte works somewhat better when you do not have so completely awesome armor but I really liked the idea of fire and force and lightning from my previous attacks bursting back at those who managed to hit Alek.
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 03:03 AM
    It is kind of a work around but for functionality sake and not exactly the right flavor, but Dex it would need to be I like that you gave level recommendations that deserves a thumbs up in itself.. it seems weird to go level 4 without getting that level 5 extra attack though.
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 02:53 AM
    Or perhaps its is a single arrow that returns to your bow knock or quiver after doing its deed. How common to make these things seem flavor oriented ie game world flavor. It might be very rare to the game world of course but all archer oriented heros have one variant or another ;)
    11 replies | 373 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 02:47 AM
    I do not see Iron Defender working for this character so much... but its Battle ReadyWhen you reach 3rd level, your combat training and your experiments with magic and have paid off in two ways: You gain proficiency with martial weapons. When you attack with a magic weapon, you can use your Intelligence modifier, instead of Strength or Dexterity, for the attack and damage rolls.
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
    3 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 02:10 AM
    Since I really like the flavor of Inspiring Leader how does it stack up in peoples opinions I have heard its borderline broken
    72 replies | 2538 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 01:40 AM
    The opposite of Green Flame Blade in 4e interestingly and yes it was one of his abilities. Green Flame blade could affect any number of enemies adjacent to the one you hit though I called it splash damage. Swordburst is another one of his favorites for clearing out adjacent minions and the like. I kind of like flavoring that one as more martial like a whirling dervish attack. That part...
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 01:20 AM
    This speaks to the value of not forcing the choice
    72 replies | 2538 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 01:17 AM
    Someone called 5e feats more like Themes in 4e it made me blink a bit not mechanically similar at all but in context of what you just said I think is more about their story value, themes had a lot of story value (and somewhat like Paragon paths and Epic Destinies)
    72 replies | 2538 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 12:11 AM
    Not something I have read but that does count as homebrew to be honest. Though using level dipping style multi-classing is actually almost like the cost in some ways of 4e feats.
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 12:05 AM
    Bladesinger has some ingredients the bladesong helps gets defense based on intelligence. (but might not be defender class without a fighting style to help maybe) Indeed I think the Paladin Smite ability is something i have heard suggested. I was suspecting a custom feat might be required basically a translation of Intelligent Blademaster - in 4e it was kind of a low impact feat and feats...
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 10:48 PM
    His name is Alek Cor'Daren (Shielding Aegis - an effective Defender - with some good multi-enemy effectiveness) He had a feat which allowed even his basic attacks (opportunity attacks and granted ones and the like to be based on Intelligence). This feat was part of his origin story and part of what made the character feel special so if necessary I can see how it might take a bit of home brew...
    21 replies | 571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 08:45 PM
    A lot of feel and flavor is influenced by rules sometimes however it seems the opposite is true. The explicit sources and roles in 4e were really almost entirely flavor in most ways ... however roles guided class and power design (ie they were a design paradigm not actually rules and they weren't hard fast determinants) and sources once in a blue moon actually acted as prerequisites.(but this...
    62 replies | 1825 view(s)
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  • steenan's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 08:38 PM
    Your characterization screams "Dogs in the Vineyard" to me. It's a great game because, despite being about defenders of faith and faithful and containing supernatural evil, it's not a game of "us versus them". You have the rules of faith. Then you get faced with situations that are much more complicated. It's obvious that there is sin, that the demons are at work. But telling the good from...
    22 replies | 532 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 07:23 PM
    I see something you need to integrate with powers. You need a method to allow a big cool method to defeat the big bad without it being a fluke of chance -- we have a method already it's the nature of powers. Conversely a power might be useable against an enemy or set of enemies you out class without expending a power slot. @AbdulAlhazred
    41 replies | 3997 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 05:15 PM
    Runequest (Stormbringer) was how I figured out no D&D ever was trying for simulating anything but heroic fantasy RQ had vivid combat that made you involved in attacks and defenses the advancement system was very oriented, where any attack might kill or disable in a stroke but your character never felt heroic. Gygax made an argument against critical hits which explains it. He said that Conan...
    255 replies | 24151 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 04:27 PM
    Allow insight checks or similar to figure out what the capability of the adversaries are maybe add that effect into certain utility powers.
    41 replies | 3997 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 12:11 PM
    So the literary content of the written text (e.g., diction, structure, style, content) was deprecated by the tone and performance? What if the DM had not read the boxed text aloud - a rote performance - but had instead engaged in a more natural style that communicated the message of the boxed text without reading from it? What you say here suggests that something else that has not really been...
    1470 replies | 40374 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 04:09 AM
    It generally doesnt in 4e but they didnt lock down out of turn actions
    41 replies | 3997 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 03:47 AM
    The warlord whose primary context is often for team work is very off turn as well to me the highly limited off turn action basically undermines that. I do like 5e movement system its pretty sweet.
    41 replies | 3997 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 02:49 AM
    I feel it makes the artificiality of turn based combat more obvious to me... in 1e action was planned but simultaneous. (relying on the DM to merge them)
    41 replies | 3997 view(s)
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  • Hriston's Avatar
    Sunday, 16th June, 2019, 01:29 AM
    Ovinomancer denied that anyone in this thread had said that how content is presented cannot determine whether people wish to engage with it. Hereís what I said: NOT the same thing!
    1470 replies | 40374 view(s)
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Saturday, 15th June, 2019, 09:59 PM
    LOL, well this is somewhat true. Honestly I have been kind of in another world the last several months, not doing a lot of work on it. I must say, the whole question of simplified hit points and 'combat modes' in the 'What Sticks' thread could lead to deep reworking of the basic combat engine, assuming I really want to go that far. Already HoML has the issue that, at high levels, you get to...
    41 replies | 3997 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 15th June, 2019, 04:00 PM
    They had in my opinion the best flavor text / class descriptions of any edition it's not my favorite edition but I can appreciate things from multiple ones. I think I can say terminology is separate from mechanics but what the hell In 3.5e I remember reading the Book of 9 Swords and finding the terminology was evocative Stances / Strikes and Martial Disciplines / Maneuvers (4e lost a lot...
    62 replies | 1825 view(s)
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  • LostSoul's Avatar
    Saturday, 15th June, 2019, 01:49 PM
    What matters are the choices that the players make. So what do the rules 1. force choices for the players to make? 2. ask choices that the player may or may not make 3. suggest 4. ask the DM to force/ask/suggest choices It's complicated; something like 5e would have different answers if the standard encounter XP budget was doubled. Or if the monsters in the MM were more or less...
    48 replies | 1460 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 15th June, 2019, 11:14 AM
    you forgot the quotes "meaningful" .... because who rolled highest initiative is to me not very meaningful
    245 replies | 10111 view(s)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Saturday, 15th June, 2019, 02:48 AM
    I don't understand what you're trying to achieve. If you're not interested in the topic as it's been framed or discussed, or think the thread is unhelpful, you're very welcome not to post in it. If you think my threads involve code-of-conduct violation, you have the option of reporting them. Are you trying to pick a fight and have this thread shut down? Are you trying to clutter the thread...
    1470 replies | 40374 view(s)
    1 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Saturday, 15th June, 2019, 02:40 AM
    Riley37, you didn't answer my question as to what you think it adds to the thread to insist that Hriston said something that he didn't, on the basis of attributing a meaning to his words that they were not intended to bear, and which no reasonable reader of them in the context of their production would impute to them. As to your question about light, light isn't an endeavour of any sort. It's...
    1470 replies | 40374 view(s)
    2 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Saturday, 15th June, 2019, 02:19 AM
    It's not a Chrome thing as such. I use Chrome, and when I cut-and-past text into the website editor I don't pick up COLOR tags.
    26 replies | 516 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 15th June, 2019, 01:34 AM
    Fast and Anti-climactic do just as much. Fast can also be just boring with mostly bags of hit points Fast is also anti-interesting choices for players.
    245 replies | 10111 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 15th June, 2019, 01:10 AM
    When you have 3,724 feats Still using Trumpish math is not impressive.
    72 replies | 2538 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 08:21 PM
    Not convinced that it worked.
    72 replies | 2538 view(s)
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  • Nemesis Destiny's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 08:14 PM
    Good to know! I asked custserv if they could add my CC to my account to auto-renew my manually-granted sub, and they said 'no' and that they hoped any issues would be sorted before I needed to worry about it coming up for renewal.
    163 replies | 43571 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 02:31 PM
    A recent thread about Healer being too strong and Durable being too weak has me wanting to bump this thread for more breadth.
    19 replies | 2576 view(s)
    2 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 02:24 PM
    Giving more is almost always better than Nerfing ... The flavors of those are obviously the same.
    72 replies | 2538 view(s)
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  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 02:07 PM
    Ok, so I understand your position. So I guess I just have a few questions/thoughts: 1) Why canít Aptitude Bias run the other direction (as so many do); overestimating the importance of a honed Skill-set or natural affinity? 2) In the last several years on these boards, weíve seen a LOT of instances of people who are articulate, well-read, tenured GMs struggle significantly in one or both...
    1470 replies | 40374 view(s)
    3 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 11:18 AM
    Bad is different than trap though... trap is where something seems like it might be alright or has very compelling flavor AND is poor. Overly powerful is a form of Bad feat just as not so useful ones... arguably the overly powerful ones were often call feat taxes in 4e. and were often considered somewhat obvious 5e feat resources are arguably more expensive I am thinking what do they ...
    72 replies | 2538 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 11:09 AM
    Really I have seen Umbrum warning people in the last several days.... and it must be "impossible" someone has had more than one account ?
    62 replies | 1825 view(s)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 05:38 AM
    I've mostly played RQ III, although I don't think we've ever used the Sorcery rules. Characters have a lot of colour. Resolution is generally straightforward enough. The system is set up to make combat an important aspect of play, but it also tends to produce fairly brutal results. That's probably the biggest weakness of the system.
    19 replies | 721 view(s)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 05:26 AM
    If someone says "All the cheese is gone" before the dinner party, and then the next day you and a friend are debating whether or not anyone has ever thought that there's no cheese left in the world, the person who said "All the cheese is gone" doesn't count as an example of such. It's not that they said as much but didn't mean it. It's that anyone who thinks that's what they said doesn't...
    1470 replies | 40374 view(s)
    3 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 05:21 AM
    Seriously? Let's put to one side the fact that, contra Imaro, Hriston's post was in reply to Hussar, not to him. Here is the exchange between Hussar and Hriston: Hriston is refuting an express claim that "dungeon dressing" is a literary matter simply because it's non-mechanical, and also an apparent implication that the role and significance of dungeon dressing is a matter of evocative...
    1470 replies | 40374 view(s)
    3 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 04:55 AM
    This post makes many assumptions about how a game might work. Many games don't require "adding to the game" (eg by way of new subsystems, or new modifiers, or whatever) because they have resolution systems that are relatively straightforward to extrapolate to novel situations. I appreciate that D&D, historically, has not been such a system - it emphasises particular subsystems rather than...
    48 replies | 1460 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Hriston's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 03:43 AM
    How do you get from me saying content matters to me saying *only* content matters? Obviously, all sorts of various things matter to different people when they play RPGs. Central to the experience of playing an RPG, however, is imagining the gameís fictional content. Whether a group considers their imaginings to be a literary endeavor, on the other hand, is a particular concern of the group in...
    1470 replies | 40374 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 02:19 AM
    Many of a themes effects were just power swaps.... not power upgrades but they might be represented in 5e as a type of 5e feat. Paragon paths might be a 5e feat as would Epic Destiny. Not sure if the 5e feat will convey them well. But they might be built that way.
    64 replies | 1756 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 01:52 AM
    The character class descriptions were for me quite evocative
    62 replies | 1825 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 01:47 AM
    I love that Elfcrusher still gets to have fun with his e-war...
    62 replies | 1825 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 01:45 AM
    I had an idea of using checks to enable maneuvers you forfeit an attack from your attack action to effectively have another superiority die for your next attack..... basically with the die as a damage boost on the next action its putting all your eggs in one basket with interesting effect being one of them. The skill check might not even be a hard one (or if it was add the WIS or INT or CHA also...
    34 replies | 1199 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 01:37 AM
    I found the game didnt do justice to Vances flavor but reading Vance helped D&D feel a little better it was still the part of the system most often hacked back then. Not ironically my favorite edition people often think removed Vancian is actually functionally closer in terms of use frequency to Vance and makes flavor completely adjustable. Also pretty sure I remember Vance also described in...
    62 replies | 1825 view(s)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Friday, 14th June, 2019, 12:56 AM
    I use the traditional colour scheme (white post text, orange button text, on black background). In the post I mentioned in the "literary endeavour" thread there are two quote blocks. The first I can read. The second is, for me, an empty quote block. When I highlight it the text appears. I assume that the text has COLOR tags around it that are making it black. In the past when posters have...
    26 replies | 516 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 10:26 PM
    Citing the above, I want to make sure I've captured your position before I attempt to move the conversation forward. To do so, I'm going to also cite the below from me: Is your position that I (and others) have a blind spot for the gravity of the amplification effect I cite above (or further still, that it is indeed a causal effect) because of natural ability/decades of honing the crafts...
    1470 replies | 40374 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 07:28 PM
    The former. my color scheme is default text on black background of that helps (Iím computer incompetent so that is the best I got).
    26 replies | 516 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 07:21 PM
    YOU ARE CORRECT SIR Invisible text in other thread and linked thread.
    26 replies | 516 view(s)
    1 XP
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Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 02:26 PM - lowkey13 mentioned pemerton in post Formatting- Quotes Not Coming Out Correctly
    Hi Everybody! (HI DR. NICK!) Now tell Dr. Nick where is the trouble. ...so, @Dannyalcatraz first pointed out a problem in my posts, specifically, this one- https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659985-Why-are-we-okay-with-violence-in-RPGs&p=7618903&viewfull=1#post7618903 Since then, two other commenters have noted the same problem. @pemerton @Manbearcat Q. What is the problem? A. I don't know- I can't see it! Everything looks good to me. But it looks like, from what is in Danny's post- https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659985-Why-are-we-okay-with-violence-in-RPGs&p=7619116&viewfull=1#post7619116 That my "quotes" are disappearing. It seems that pemerton reports it as a text formatting issue. So, I think this is recent? Maybe an "https:" change? And it's not universal ... it looks fine to me. Quotes that I use from someone else seem fine ... I think it might just be a combination of: Using the "quote" feature around text that I paste into the text box, and paste as "plain text formatting" (in order to avoid html issues). But I'd like the Powers That Be to look at this, and either tell me it's a bug (with a fix on the server side?) or that I need to do things differently so everyone can see what I'm doing; I'm guessing that this bug has led to some recent miscommunications. :) EDIT- Here's a test: Nece...
  • 02:48 AM - Hriston mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine. I don't know about @pemertonís post, but that post of mine you quoted was not made in reply to you or anything you said. I made it in response to @Hussarís post which directly preceded mine and which asked why dungeon dressing appears in most editions of the DMG.

Wednesday, 12th June, 2019

  • 09:41 PM - hawkeyefan mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    All substance, no style, and you are just playing a boardgame ... or a wargame. All style, no substance, and you are just doing community theater. That's why it's neither ... or both. It tastes great, and is less filling. (Its a STYLISTIC .... SUBSTANCE, or, put another way, it's a ROLE PLAYING .... GAME ;) ). Yeah, I think I acknowledged that in my post, and I think we've made that clear throughout the thread, despite proponents of either using extreme examples as support. Both are necessary. But I would imagine that most of us feel that one is more important than the other, such as pemerton's stated preference in the OP. To use your comparison (dated though it is, I sadly get it :p), for some folks, lite beer being less filling may be more important to the taste. For others, the opposite is true. While it's both, what matters to people is, I think, what's interesting to discuss.
  • 07:40 PM - uzirath mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Look at the comments you have made in defense of this theory. Long, lengthy, well-written, good grammar, decent vocabulary, engaged with the argument, and so on. Sure. Yes. My framing, narration, gaming conversation, etc., is probably, by some metrics, more "literary" than someone with less formal education, less experience with public speaking, etc. My point wasn't solely about my experience though. I teach RPGs to children ranging from ages 6-14 (and some older). Many of them do not have well-honed skill with language. Many of them succeed at running (and playing in) awesome games, despite that weakness. I am not arguing that good narration can't helpóskillful presentation matters in RPGs as in other mediumsóbut I've slowly come to accept pemerton's basic premise that it is not the most significant element. I regularly see GMs with strong language skills struggling to attract players to their tables because they talk too much or only want the story to go their way. For the kids who stick with it, there is much to enjoy: the GMs may write great descriptions, have good voice control, use spooky foreshadowing, etc. But, often, the table nearby, with a GM who is flustered and has weak vocabulary manages to be more popular because that GM is refereeing a more engaging story, a story primarily written by the other players, dependent on interesting (or hilarious or gruesome) interactions between characters and the fictional environment. Similarly, in college, I had the opportunity to do a two-year folklore study of RPGs. (This was amazing. Still pinching myself.) I referred in my last post to the "torture" of typing up transcripts. That was a big part of the project. I ended up with hundreds of hours of recordings of live D&D games....
  • 06:29 PM - darkbard mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Since I clearly lack the cognitive ability to understand the [I]context of this discussion [...] why don't you explain it to me like I'm a slightly dumb golden retriever, since it is very very tiring for people to keep saying "But you just don't understand what the OP really meant" without proffering an explanation. Histrionic much? Look, if you find this so "very tiring," what, then, is the purpose of your reentry into the discussion every few hundred posts? Clearly you must derive something from this discussion beyond the occasional impulse to meet head and keyboard? Good? So tell me, in your own words, what exactly the intent behind the term "literary" is, and why that distinction matters for the post your responded to. :) As I stated pretty early in this thread, I believe any attempt to define some immutable, univeral definition for "literary/literature" is a fool's errand. What matters for this thread is not fixing some definition but rather pemerton's argument that what makes TTRPGs unique and distinct from literature is the framing of situations as a call to action on the part of the PC-inhabiting-player over descriptive flourishes as performance for performance's sake. While this thread has occasionally offered some other interesting discussion, I don't believe squabbling over definitions has provided anything really useful. So, no, I won't define "exactly the intent behind the term 'literary'" beyond what I have said above: this thread's main thrust is about framing engaging calls to action as core to TTRPGing over performance for performance's sake (though, and perhaps I separate myself from pemerton on this, I don't think this is a universal statement: I think there are gamestyles and players who value performance for performance's sake over the engaging call to action).

Tuesday, 11th June, 2019

  • 12:38 PM - Aldarc mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Though you may have had this game in mind for your OP, pemerton, Dungeon World is built on what you describe: GM frames the scene - turns to the PC: "What do you do?" - and then the PC narrates how their character develops or responds to the fiction. Depending upon the results triggered by the dice, the GM then may shift the fictional framing of the story and repeat the cycle.

Monday, 10th June, 2019

  • 04:26 AM - uzirath mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ... current position of the campaign. My priorities have been the following, in descending order of importance: Get the basic premise of the scenario down. Customize things such that the particular PCs in their particular spot in the campaign have a compelling reason to get involved with the adventure. Make sure there are elements that connect to the PCs both in terms of roleplaying and mechanics (i.e., have something demonic for the demon hunter to engage with). Make two handouts (a few bits of text from a ship's logbook and a scrappy map). I don't typically do this sort of thing, but I enjoy such elements as a player, so when there's an easy way to do it, I go for it. Review some mechanics that might come into play that I'm rusty on. Think about various scenes (locations, really) that are likely to come into play and how I might describe them. Just jotting down some words in the margins basically. My sense is that by virtue of my first priority, I share some elements of pemerton's position. (Indeed, I continue to follow this messy thread because I find the premise to be useful in terms of thinking about my own approach.) Some of my other priorities (i.e., #2 and #4), seem to veer toward the more literary camp. I don't really think of it as being "literary," in the sense of aiming for high art. The other players and I are fans of immersion, though, and I particularly enjoy vivid scenes, so I try to provide a certain level of detail and atmosphere. I find that if I wing all the setting elements, things end up too bland for my tastes. A bit of forethought gives me a chance to inject some life into it.
  • 12:10 AM - Hussar mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ... can try to run a game in a literary style. but I don't think it is necessary. Nor do I think it is particularly advisable. This is why I don't think we're as far apart as it might appear. I look at words like "intricately" and I think "literary" not "conversation" because the words "intricately carved" would almost never appear in a conversation. Aldarc above talks about a mechanic using technical language. Thing is, that's not really a conversation either. That's a mechanic imparting information to the customer, but, it's probably mostly one direction and if the mechanic dives too far into technical jargon, there's no conversation at all as the listener has no idea what's being talked about. Is it "literary"? Maybe not. But, it's certainly not conversation either. Aldarc keeps pressing me to prove that the language is literary. I'm not because the definition of "literary" is so nebulous. I don't have to. I only have to show that it isn't conversational to show that pemerton is wrong. And I CAN show that because the language that's being chosen, often deliberately chosen, is being chosen to evoke specific reactions and is language that would almost never appear in a conversation.

Sunday, 9th June, 2019

  • 07:33 PM - Imaro mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Let me ask a question to pemerton, Hawkeye, Bedrockgames and Aldarc. Would you use the same words/language/etc. to describe a remote village in the mountains for say a Ravenloft campaign vs a Four color superhero game like Icons? let's assume good faith in that the Icons village isn't supposed to be haunted or anything tht would make it more Ravenloft-esque.... EDIT: Meant hawkeyefan ...
  • 02:30 PM - Aldarc mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I asked, on page 1 and again on page 119: if TRPG is literary, then what? if TRPG isn't literary, then what?Okay. Good for you, I guess. But even if pemerton never addressed the question explicitly, it does not seem all that difficult with a modicum of effort to piece together pemerton's answers within the page frame of 1 and 119. I also feel that it's important to point out, since you had mentioned it earlier, that Karl Popper's falsification testing (1) is not necessarily applicable outside of scientific testing, where it has been criticized in other fields (e.g., politics, history, literature, mathematics, etc.), and (2) it has also been criticized within scientific testing and science. So I am skeptical whether a Popperian approach is feasible for our present inquiry or whether it is (likely) a misguided attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. If this conversational endeavor is also a literary endeavor, *how does that overlap of endeavor differ from non-overlap? You still haven't answered my question.I don't think that your question is particularly clear. GM narration which uses an *appropriate* measure of literary...
  • 08:03 AM - Hussar mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...s are gonna balk at the word ďwieldĒ? Or ďgauntĒ? Come on. Sorry, you're right, they aren't unknown. But, my point being, they aren't what you'd use in conversation either. Would you actually use the words "wield" or "gaunt" in a conversation? "A gaunt man wielding a gun robbed a liquor store" is not something you will ever hear in a conversation. You certainly might hear "A thin man armed with a gun" or "carrying a gun", but "wielding"? That's not going to be used. The way I'm seeing it, we've got a spectrum with high art prose on one end (think Tolkien, high Gygaxian, H. P. Lovecraft - if we want to use genre literature) and what you'd hear in a conversation or in the news on the other. As far as I can tell, Bedrockgames is arguing for a level of prose where "an orc with a sword enters the room" is about as much description as he wants. You gave a Githyanki description that is much further along the scale, as did I with the description of the Vengaurak. As far as pemerton goes, I really have no idea where on the scale he's coming down on since he's playing arpeggios up and down the scale so long as he can keep pretending that there is any real disagreement going on. So, no, it's not "10% of the description was useless". Sorry, I never meant that as the take away. Not at all. It's that the presence of that 10% slides the description away from the "pure conversation" end of the scale and further (and, really, where it's 10% of the words, pretty far actually) down towards the "high art" end of the scale.
  • 05:44 AM - Hussar mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...s "gaunt" or "wield" in a spoken situation. Hussar, I feel the shoe is on the other foot. Why won't you engage with the fact that you disagree with me? Go back to your example of the dwarf, or of the Scarred Land Monster. Why do you think that entertaining descriptions are an important part of RPGing? EDIT: And here is more evidence of disagreement: Here you assert exactly what the OP denies. So instead of quibbling over the way the OP is framed, why don't you elaborate on this. I'll give you my response: I've sat in game that involved English other than "bog standard colloquial . . . every day language". And they sucked, because (i) I could get better versions of such by reading LotrR or REH Conan or Stan's Soapbox in an old Marvel Comic, and (ii) the actual thing I'd come there to do - play a character in a RPG - wasn't happening because the GM's situations sucked. You appear to prioritise things differntly. Please say more about that. I don't disagree with you pemerton. I 100% agree with you. Playing an RPG does not require using high art language. SO, nope, not disagreeing. And, you say it yourself, the reason the game sucked is because the GM's situations sucked. Has NOTHING to do with the language used. Again, EVERYONE 100% agrees with you that content is important. No one is disagreeing with you. The only reason this argument is so ongoing is because you keep obfuscating the issues. Your issue isn't with the language that was being used, but, with the fact that the GM didn't design interesting scenarios. Again, well, duh. Boring situations=bad game. News at 11!! Holy crap, stop the presses. :erm: But, that's not your arguement. Your argument is that the game sucked because of the higher language used. But, that's not true. You need BOTH for a good game. Same as has been said all the way since the first freaking page.
  • 04:38 AM - hawkeyefan mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    @hawkeyefan... can you just give an example of what you feel would be literary?? I'm not certain your and @pemerton 's idea of literary line up since he claimed I seemed to understand it and my understanding was non-conversational, evocative description. Iím sure mine and pemertonís ideas donít exactly match, no. But thatís fine. I donít entirely agree with his premise, but I understand it, and I think he has a point. But Iím only speaking for myself. I think Iíve given examples at this point. I donít think describing something is enough....I think that the way its described has to matter. Focus on the how more than the what. So a description that lists the physical traits of a creature (even a fantastical creature that necessitates some level of fantastic description) isnít, to me, whatís being cited. Some attempt for the description itself to have meaning of some sort beyond the description. Use if metaphor or symbolism and the like...other literary devices being used or established through the narration.
  • 01:52 AM - Imaro mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    hawkeyefan... can you just give an example of what you feel would be literary?? I'm not certain your and pemerton 's idea of literary line up since he claimed I seemed to understand it and my understanding was non-conversational, evocative description.
  • 01:09 AM - Hussar mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    That's been done. You're correct. There seems to be an underlying assumption by some posters that any disagreement must be the result of having confused the definition of our terms, and that if only those could be sorted out then everyone would see that what is being said is true or false. Or, to put it differently, there seems to be some sort of reluctance to recognise and talk about actual differences of opinion. Hussar seems to be an example, because he keeps insisting that he agrees with me whereas it seems obvious to me, and must be obvious to anyone else who's read this thread, that he has a very different view from me about what is important in RPGing: No. Not everything the New Yorker reviews is high art. Not everything that aspires to literary quality achieves it. So even things that aspire to be high art don't always make it. /snip Oh, FFS, after all the criticisms of "equivocation" we have one of the biggest waffles of all. Good grief, pemerton. "Oh, RPG language doesn't aspire to be good enough to be reviewed in the New Yorker", sure, great, I agree. "Oh, no, not everything in the New Yorker is literary that gets reviewed." Round and round and round. Total and complete baloney. Yeah, what a freaking waste of time. You're not even trying to hide that you are no longer arguing in good faith.

Saturday, 8th June, 2019

  • 10:35 PM - Maxperson mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I feel perhaps this is a bit pedantic. ďWhere are the elevators?Ē - ďFollow these guys.Ē It answers the question. It's neither pedantic, nor does it answer the question, except that ANY answer is technically an answer. "Where are the elevators?" - "Goonygoogoo!" It's an answer. To me, this is a very low bar then, and I doubt itís what was in mind with the OP. I feel like including a few adjectives isnít what weíre talking about. The problem is that the OP doesn't get to decide what is literary quality for anyone but himself. Some people will have a low bar, others middle, and yet others high. That's the problem with using terms like literary quality or using personal definition. pemerton often kills his own threads by using contentious terms that get people arguing over what the term means, rather than talking about the OP. If he just described what he liked without using contentious terms, this sort of thing would happen far less frequently.
  • 06:01 PM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Way to deliberately ignore the important part of my post. You know, in your first response to me it actually sounded as if you might debate this one in good faith. I should have known better. Which part was the important part? I figured it was the question, but that question is based on the strawman argument you've shortened pemerton's points down into. And the response to that question is literally go re-read pemerton's post again and try not to strawman it -- he answers your question quite well. Why is it you feel that you can ignore large parts of people's posts and that this is engaging in good faith but when people engage the lack of your understanding due to this ignoring, we're suddenly arguing in bad faith? Or are you just tone policing?
  • 05:20 AM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    This is what he said. "Somewhat contra Lanefan, it often doesn't matter at all if the players think different things about the fiction." Where in there does it specify non-key details? It doesn't. He was very general with his claim. Seriously. :| Okay, I suppose your point in the last few threads was: "[t]he thing is, those times where it doesn't matter.......don't matter." This looks like perfect agreement with pemerton, so we're done here? Or, maybe, is there a lot more than a single line in your posts and the rest might have some context or expansion of the idea? I wouldn't want to strawman your argument by taking a single line out of of the larger argument you made and treat it as if it stands entirely on it's own. That would be a bad look.

Friday, 7th June, 2019

  • 06:19 PM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ... many feet that is would be the unnecessary specificity. As for the rocks, the could very well have mattered. They would be a hazard to move quickly over or fight in. It was a fairly involved battle scene. He thought I understood that they were close enough to attack me. I didn't. These things happen in theater of the mind. That doesn't change that it was the GM's error in not providing the key details, and also in not clarifying when a misunderstanding was apparent. The first is not a bad thing -- we all make these mistakes. The second is less forgivable. The group I play with now uses minis and dry erase maps to avoid that sort of thing. It's one of those things I mentioned that minimizes the issues that crops up with people imagining different things. It just replaces it with a different set of problems (and doesn't fully remove the one under discussion, either). ;) In other words, you can't present gridded play as superior to TofM. It's just different. What pemerton was saying with regards to this is also very good advice for avoiding confusion. Prioritize information presentation as it pertains to character interaction with the intent and theme of the scene and avoid unnecessary details. Unsurprisingly, this dovetails with his arguments about literary quality.
  • 05:57 PM - Maxperson mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    You're correct. I read a question mark there. But the issue is not the ebb-and-flow of conversation but how the goalposts for what was being asked for was moved after an answer was supplied. That is more than simply the conversation changing. If I ask you to prove something and you do, then I dismiss it and ask you to prove something further instead, I have moved the goalposts. If you make a statement and I disagree with it, saying, "No, literary is this," no goalposts have been moved. We don't have to agree with pemerton's assertion and are not forced to limit our discussion to what he presumes to be true. No goalposts have been moved by us.


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Sunday, 16th June, 2019

  • 07:25 PM - lowkey13 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I don't understand what you're trying to achieve. I think that is almost always the case, and I appreciate the candor. In fairness, does anyone ever know what they are trying to achieve? Or are we all more like dogs chasing cars? But I did notice that, since the beginning of the thread, you never really grappled with the use of RPGs in genre; specifically, humor.* So, how does framing sans narrative work in a humorous RPG? That's also an answer to your question I quoted, by the by. :)

Saturday, 15th June, 2019

  • 04:19 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    @Riley37, you didn't answer my question as to what you think it adds to the thread to insist that @Hriston said something that he didn't, on the basis of attributing a meaning to his words that they were not intended to bear, and which no reasonable reader of them in the context of their production would impute to them. I have no opinion on whether that action would add anything to thread; no one has done the action which you just now described, not as you describe it. Ovinomancer made an assertion which I considered untrue, and I challenged that assertion. I made no statement about what Hriston *intended*; I repeated a quote of Hriston's words, *exactly as written*. You can try to "stir the pot" between me and Ovinomancer, if you like, but I doubt you'll get results which are both successful and useful. If you want to get him and/or me thrown out of the thread, well, you can get me out of the thread just by PMing me a request not to comment further in this thread. The mods have enough on the...

Friday, 14th June, 2019

  • 04:31 PM - lowkey13 quoted pemerton in post Formatting- Quotes Not Coming Out Correctly
    So I don't think this has anything to do with https. I would guess it's to do with the environment where you are writing/editing your posts. Strangely, I just use the website. Nothing fancy. But I am guessing that what is happening is that I pasting as "plain text" (to remove formatting problems that are popping up) and that is somehow forcing it into black, as opposed to "automatic text coloring." And it only happens in those quotes because I only copy and paste into those ersatz quotes I do (to quote other stuff). ....let's try this- I use the traditional colour scheme (white post text, orange button text, on black background). In the post I mentioned in the "literary endeavour" thread there are two quote blocks. The first I can read. The second is, for me, an empty quote block. When I highlight it the text appears. I assume that the text has COLOR tags around it that are making it black. That's a pure cut and paste. I use the traditional colour scheme (white post text, orange bu...
  • 06:07 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Is anyone seriously suggesting, on the basis of this post, that Hriston thinks that word choice never matters to human conversation? or that rudeness ("being a jerk") can't affect human communication? Hey, if you have questions about anyone's assertions about who is or isn't a jerk, then please take them up with Ovinomancer, not with me. That's his topic, not mine. If you want to defend the rigorous factual accuracy of Ovinomancer's assertion "Literally no one in this thread has said otherwise", then good luck with that. I doubt that you'll earn his gratitude; but I've been wrong before. Is anyone asserting, on this basis, that speaking loud enough to be heard or choosing the right word to accurately describe something is an aspect of literary quality? If no one was before, then I am now. Speaking loud enough to be heard, and choosing the right word to accurately describe something, are aspects of literary quality. A poetry reading which fails on either or both of those qualities, will fai...

Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 10:54 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    The post you quoted is nearly 400 words, has two footnotes and an edit, and references Hemingway and Henry Miller. So why are you replying to my four-word (and a link) post, rather than replying directly to the 400-word post? Perhaps because I said the same thing, but more elegantly, and you hope to elicit further elegant responses, by engaging with me rather than with the anti-paladin?
  • 02:13 AM - Imaro quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Sure. Literally no one in this thread has said otherwise. I'm starting to think you've maybe missed the point. Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine. Because color (dungeon dressing) is content that provides atmosphere when imagined by the participants at the table. The quality of form with which itís expressed isnít whatís important but rather whether the odors, noises, furnishings, and items found in an area suggest a torture chamber, a harem, or a wizardís laboratory. In other words, itís the actual content that matters, not the particular words that are used and the way they are said. ... My take on this is the same as @Hriston's - it sounds to me like the situation is not interesting enough! As I've already posted in this thread, my advice ...

Wednesday, 12th June, 2019

  • 01:05 AM - lowkey13 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I don't quite follow this, and so am not sure what view is being attributed to me. For my answers to @Manbearcat's questions, see the post immediately upthread. Well- it was exactly what I thought. The ďyesĒ to a no (literally with the bad writer example!). You just have have a very different definition of things than I do.

Tuesday, 11th June, 2019

  • 03:38 PM - hawkeyefan quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    This isn't something I have strong views on. When I'm trying to adjudicate an action as GM, and I'm GMing a game in which the fiction has a big affect on resolution and consequences (say Buring Wheel or Traveller) then I like to have a fairly clear sense of what the character is doing, and overly complicated narration from the player can sometime hurt that. But if the players want to banter with one another, or affirm their PC personalities against one another, that's fine with me. With you "high plains of Valinor" example, I would see that as somewhat system-dependent. In some systems it's pure self-indulgence. In my 4e game, when the player of the Deva Sage of Ages recalls his days in the heavens, he is warming us up for some potentially unorthodox deployment of one of his memory-oriented abilities. In my MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic games, nearly every pool includes a Distinction that comes either from the PC sheet or the scene, and so there has to be some narration to contextualise that. So maybe...
  • 12:13 PM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    at the heart of good GMing in a RPG is framing situations: the emotional heft of the RPGing situation is generated by the call to action and the invitation to respond as a protgaonist; not the evocative power of the narration. Thanks! What's at the heart of good playing in a RPG? Responding as a protagonist? Some of my favorite moments as a player, are times when I inspired another player to high-immersion inter-character RP dialogue. Those moments are worthwhile, in the context of a story in which the PC party is engaged in some worthwhile enterprise, so perhaps they depend indirectly on previously established protagonist response.
  • 05:10 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    In my 4e game, when the player of the Deva Sage of Ages recalls his days in the heavens, he is warming us up for some potentially unorthodox deployment of one of his memory-oriented abilities. I recall a character in a Hero System (Champions) game, who had Overall Skill Levels, with the limitation that he could only use them while recounting an anecdote from his decades of service all across the Empire, and applying the lesson from that anecdote to the current situation. Was I entirely mistaken, in my theory that your OP was related to experiences in which GMs used pretentiously florid narration, as "icing" in a vain attempt to compensate for half-baked "cakes"? Apparently so, since you say that you don't have much experience of spotlight-hoggin' narration, and thus you're managed not to cross the path of spotlight-hoggin' GMs. Have you accomplished the goals of your OP?
  • 04:52 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    And if the OP was The Old Man and the Sea then I might have won a Nobel Prize Would the Nobel team consider a post in a TRPG forum as a candidate for the Literature prize? If so, that might go a long way to break the elitist stigma against assigning literary value to anything connected with the fantasy and science fiction genres.
  • 04:20 AM - Manbearcat quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Maybe posters who think the thread is not worthwhile, or is overly cluttered, could cease posting in it? Your threads suck! And you're terrible! And we hate you! More stuff!

Monday, 10th June, 2019

  • 03:22 PM - Manbearcat quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Why not? This take me, at least, back to some of the points @Manbearcat was making fairly early in this thread. If I'm going to use a qallupilluit in my game, I will want to establish a situation which gives it some sort of heft or significance. There are very many ways of doing that (and obviously RPG system will have a significant impact, on top of system-independent techniques). In my experience, an elaborate or literary description isn't one of them. If the sudden appearance of a terrifying hag from under the pack ice isn't - for whatever of innumerable possible reasons - going to engage the players, why would, or should, piling on the evocative words make a difference? So the Qallupilluit is quintessential bogeyman mythology. For bogeyman mythology to be thematically potent, it has to have some way to hook into the PC's childhood or folklore, otherwise, its just another creepy monster. So this is actually the perfect example where a GM's deftness of framing is hierarchically the ape...
  • 03:12 PM - Imaro quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    If the village in the Marvel game is a small, remote, sinister mountain village in (say) Latveria, then probably yes. I addressed this... it's not a "sinister" village I use the words I need to describe the situation. These will depend on mood, whim, what has previously been said, what seems to matter in the current situation, etc, as well as (obviously) upon what I want to describe. That is to say, the words I use will depend on all the normal determinants of spontaneous human communication. I don't feel like this is right... in conversation we rarely are consciously choosing our words it's more a stream of conscious effort (which is why people often put their foot in their mouth or have to correct/explain what they actually meant)... while in this situation you are consciously selecting certain words to emphasize a mood, theme, etc.
  • 02:56 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    In my own experience, when this occurs it's very often due to weak situation, weak framing, little or no call to action. Have you often (or too often) seen that happen, in a situation such that the GM attempted to paper over such weaknesses in the story content, via florid narration? or via other emphasis on the *scenery* of the story? The arboreal elven settlements in the Jackson "Lord of the Rings" movies are visually impressive, but using them as the setting is no substitute for call to action, nor is the term "arboreal" a substitute for call to action. If your experience with narration with literary pretensions, is narration which is not also in the service of effective situation, effective framing, and effective call to action, then you understandably have an axe to grind. Your experience would be like buying cake from a bakery which lacks competence at the skill of mixing flour, sugar and water, and heating them for the right temperature at the right duration; and which attempts to ...
  • 12:33 AM - Lanefan quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I don't think there are any Americans among me and my colleagues. A couple of Candians.Candians - from Candyland, maybe? ;)

Sunday, 9th June, 2019

  • 05:48 PM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I am saying that entertainment in virtue of quality narration and performance is not what makes RPGing a distinctive and worthwhile creative endeavour. Rather, it's situation and resulting inhabitation and protagonism. Yes. There are many human activities which seek quality narration and/or performance. TRPG is unusual, maybe even unique, in its use of situation and resulting inhabitation and protagonism. Hussar, you agree with that, right? If you've said so before, would you like to re-affirm your agreement? because quality narration and performance are the weakest elements of the typical RPG experience Apparently your typical RPG experience differs from mine. I've more often seen pacing and focus as the weak links. "Two hours of fun, packed into a four-hour session" is all too often the weak link, whether that's due to the GM performing poorly, players performing poorly (such as not giving the game their primary attention), or a combination of GM failure and player failure. W...
  • 09:55 AM - Lanefan quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Following quote altered slightly by addition of numbers to make my response easier to parse... This is why I have brought it back to what are we aiming for? What counts as success, as good RPGing? What should a GM focus on? And I'm saying 1. situation - framing, action, consequence - [over] 2. beauty or evocation in narration.Where I say a GM should focus on using 2 to make 1 more interesting and-or immersive and-or exciting whenever she can, because 1 is always going to be there no matter what and at whatever quality it was going to be at anyway. Why not dress it up a little?
  • 09:47 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Why won't you engage with the fact that you disagree with me? Maybe because you have not made any assertions which are (a) sufficiently concrete for falsification testing (Karl Popper style) and (b) in contrast with any assertions from Hussar. You said in the OP that TRPG is not a literary endeavor. I asked, on the first page: if it is, then what? if not, then what? 100+ pages later, have you answered my question? Hussar has said (if I understand correctly) that he prefers TRPG which includes descriptive prose which goes beyond bog-standard conversation in the core 2000 vocabulary. You have stated that YOU have participated in games with flowery prose and YOU have not enjoyed them. Perhaps you and BRG would be happy at each other's tables. You haven't yet made a concrete, falsification-testable assertion about anything other than your personal tastes in TRPG. You have not, AFAIK, asserted "Hussar does not enjoy TRPG with flowery prose." THAT would be a disagreement, THAT would be a contr...
  • 06:16 AM - hawkeyefan quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I don't agree that there's a consensus: I can't really tell what Maxperson thinks, but Imaro and Hussar have made claims about the need for entertaining/evocative narration that I think clearly contradict the position I asserted in the OP. Yeah I know....that last bit was sarcasm on my part. I know thereís no consensus. This is why I have brought it back to what are we aiming for? What counts as success, as good RPGing? What should a GM focus on? ďWhat are we aiming forĒ is probably the best way to look at it. Iíd never say ďquality proseĒ ahead of ďan interesting gameĒ. I wouldnít expect that to be universal, but Iím surprised at the amount of support there seems to be for that view.


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