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  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Today, 09:10 PM
    I'm with Aldarc here. I don't think the answer is a single general use Urban Fantasy TTRPGing system with theme/premise-neutral mechanics to rule them all (this almost always leads to an overwhelming GM presence in play trajectory to manufacture an experience...typically putting players in a significantly more passive position than in a game like Blades in the Dark). This is precisely why I...
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  • S'mon's Avatar
    Today, 08:59 PM
    I'd like a 5e adaptation for running generic space opera science fantasy; something a lot like Starfinder say.
    307 replies | 7979 view(s)
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  • chaochou's Avatar
    Today, 06:53 PM
    The same publisher (Samjoko) which produced The Veil, powered by the Apocalypse, also produced another cyberpunk game called Hack the Planet, using John Harper's Blades in the Dark as a framework. If their progenitors are anything to go by, the former will be a wide open game where the players exercise a great deal of freedom in defining the interests and spheres of influence of their PCs, and...
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  • DMZ2112's Avatar
    Today, 06:32 PM
    They're not my posts.
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  • DMZ2112's Avatar
    Today, 06:28 PM
    I'm looking for folks to share stories they have of 15th-to-20th-level adventures in 1st Edition AD&D. Preferably campaigns that began at 1st level (or at least below 5th) and that occurred before 1990, but I'm flexible if you think you've got a good one. I'm likewise open to 2nd Edition campaigns, Companion- or Master-tier D&D campaigns, or to campaigns in other (similar) rulesets, if they are...
    2 replies | 78 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Today, 05:58 PM
    Hmmm...I am not sure whether any hypothetical "D&D of urban fantasy" could delve into that sort of complexity well. It's not as if D&D is good for exploring the complexities and nuances of the European Middle Ages or Renaissance. D&D does a fairly shallow job of exploring anything beyond the objectification of monsters as a source of loot, XP, and the colonial moral superiority of the...
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  • DMZ2112's Avatar
    Today, 05:18 PM
    If there is an image imbedded anywhere in a thread that I or one of my friends posts in, the My Activity tab on my profile repeats the image in every post it collates from that thread.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 04:03 PM
    Agreed, but I think my post identifies some features of the Saltmarsh text that mark the contrast with conversational language. For instance, I think that conversatinal language - to the extent that, under some sort of regimentation, it has a main clause - is more likely to have the main clause correspond with the main body of information (eg It's a run-down bedroom with rubbish everywhere rather...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Today, 03:23 PM
    In the context of the OP? I would say, yes, that appears to be the case: The underlying desire seems to be for something that does for urban fantasy what D&D does for pseudo-medieval fantasy, especially without the various lore/edition/setting baggage of WoD.
    49 replies | 1168 view(s)
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  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Today, 03:16 PM
    Ah ok. (I’m asking this out of a position of ignorance) So when someone refers to “Urban Fantasy” in TTRPGing, are they referring to “a malleable game/system without a tight play premise baked in so it can be drifted to (say) the modern focus of ‘paranormal romance’ or something similar?”
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Today, 02:44 PM
    It is definitely Urban Fantasy, but the BitD setting is incredibly restrictive both in geographic scope (Duskvol) and its breadth of urban fantasy tropes. I don't think that one could readily use BitD for a generic urban fantasy game. It curtails itself to a fairly particular play experience. This is one of its strengths, but it can also work against its favor. This is how Modern AGE,...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Today, 02:29 PM
    He's using simpler language, but I don't think he is necessarily using simpler vocabulary. There is not much difference of vocabulary between "rubbish is scattered around what was once a fine guest bedroom" and "it's a run-down bedroom with rubbish scattered about." And we could hardly say that those differences amount to any notions of higher vocabulary: e.g., fine, guest, once, what, was....
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 08:52 AM
    But isn't that because the guest bedroom will look different from a currently occupied one. How can you tell that it was once a guest bedroom - rather than, say, an abandoned main bedroom? (I'm putting to one side the anachronism of projecting relatively modern architectural conceptions back into a house in the Greyhawk setting.) My first example changes word order and verb constructions and...
    116 replies | 2506 view(s)
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  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Today, 02:48 AM
    Something similar to that play anecdote that you're mentioning above happened in my 2nd 4e game that went 1-30. While that was a Bladesinger rather than a Fighter, it was all martial, so its applicable. It was mid-Paragon Tier. While the Druid and Rogue dealt with an endless tide of mooks, the Bladesinger was locked in a duel with the Captain of the Guard (CotG). The player wanted it to...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 12:44 AM
    Its narrative style in my view. I'd focus on phrases like "rubbish is scattered around what was once a fine guest bedroom" rather than, say, it's a run-down bedroom with rubbish scattered about; there is evidence of rodent infestation ratjher than, say, you can see rats or you can see mouse-droppings everywhere; "its woodwork is worm-ridden" rather than, say, there seem to be termites in the...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 12:30 AM
    A lot of authors and publishers seem to think so!
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 12:23 AM
    This is also a major stumbling block for me. Of course word choice matters in communication. So does tone. Etc. Someone has given the example of sarcasm in this or some other recent thread, and that is often a matter of tone. That's all part-and-parcel of conversation.
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  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Yesterday, 09:34 PM
    Does Blades in the Dark not qualify as Urban Fantasy? Grimdark, cutthroat urban setting (Duskvol) - check Paranormal (overruneth and all kinds) - check Magic - check Factions/tribes embroiled in endless war to ascend hierarchy - check
    49 replies | 1168 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:12 AM
    You could play test the blue blazes out of it... and see if that inspires refinements.
    22 replies | 783 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 03:10 AM
    i like this thinking its nice if you can do context overlap... how much value should that skill check be in combat?
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:04 AM
    So what options were leveraged in 4e to expand Martial further (Martial Practices could be on that list but were not fully developed)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:25 AM
    Oh right very excellent tools. I still hack on the Character builder via CBLoader
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:21 AM
    One example I found http://blog.kittenhugs.com/2015/07/martial-adept.html
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 01:11 AM
    Not certain why you are asking... If a series of skill uses and each and every make or break the sequence that isn't a skill challenge they need to contribute not be barriers, if the skill uses are largely easy that isn't a skill challenge etc. Non-simplistic usually collaborative skill use where a composite failure results in a broad shift in the story in a direction that the players had not...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:12 AM
    In another thread about traditional D&D vs 4e style @Manbearcat brought an example to the table where the fighter took over ie manhandled a tank into using it against the enemy OK it was basically an element I brought in... the point was to show that 4e had assumptions of competence and tools for accomplishing the extraordinary for non-magical characters at higher levels that were lacking in...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 11:56 PM
    I like it for being a way to make sure everyone gets to contribute in combat mechanically as often and climatically as others and in a way that syncs up with narrative with roles differentiating broadly how you contribute. Yup good design tool.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 06:10 PM
    A couple of sources for this idea... one is Princess Bride LOL
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 06:06 PM
    Did I mention this thread is one of the reasons I want them to get the error fixed for moving threads.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 06:03 PM
    Note you can level gate usage of a maneuver by saying it takes forgoing 2 attacks from your attack action.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 05:58 PM
    I did indeed think of Action surge after typing the above
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 05:43 PM
    Indeed I think my idea was minions are great but all the monster roles are a very useful tool. I also think potential swarm size is underestimated. A tight phalanx containing a century of men might be 12x12 and quite appropriate to have 5 of those against a party in paragon. A group of soldiers might have both lose and tight formation training. (change their size) ... it might actually take...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 05:18 PM
    Sure kind of but then the 4e fighter also had a daily in there. I think mayhaps the fighter needs more superiority dice to do the multi-dice cost trick. Or another resource like heroic surge to do daily class maneuvers with.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 04:52 PM
    Did you try out swarms? Swarms are the real go to for mass combat... a swarm/squad of 10 fight to the death fanatics may be 1 elite enemy or 10 minions but that elite enemy might also be 100 normal soldiers in a tighter 12x12 formation with a leader who has them retreat after it becomes obvious they are out matched or perhaps it is a disorganized mob whose fighting style costs them more lives...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 03:34 PM
    I got blocked by him when I didn't roll over when he argued that Fate wasn't roleplaying game. (His issue also had to do with metagaming. ;))
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 03:24 PM
    Simple enough explanation: Multiple perspectives breed multiple opinions. I'm not going to bother though with rehashing the he-said/she-said of that thread here. If we are moving towards a more mutual and amiable understanding, then good. That's what matters. But that is again why I said that we could replace the vocabulary with simpler vocabulary - e.g., "unpredictability," "twenty-three,"...
    116 replies | 2506 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 03:37 AM
    I don't think that "vocabulary IS the important distinction between conversational and prose language," but that does not mean that I am arguing "pretty vehemently, all the way along that vocabulary choice doesn't matter." This was also not true on the other thread either. (In fact, I'm not sure if there was anyone on the other thread who believed otherwise.) This latter point is a false position...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 01:54 AM
    Hussar, I would strongly appreciate it if you would stop constructing strawman arguments with my name attached and insisting that I am strongly saying anything that we both know you can't back up with evidence. It's rude and you're being a dick. Thankfully, I'm confident that Bedrockgames will exercise more sense than to bite at your misrepresentations of what I have said.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 01:32 AM
    I do not get the sense of magic.... in this at all :) though science was a philosophy and chemistrity an evolution of alchemy so there is that.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 01:17 AM
    Perhaps refine those?
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 12:53 AM
    Excuse you? Revisionist history much? No you didn't. You still haven't now, Hussar.
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Saturday, 22nd June, 2019, 12:07 AM
    What do you do if you have a player who doesn't like evocative narration???
    116 replies | 2506 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 11:24 PM
    I'm not really seeing any actual argumentative connection between saying "word choice matters" to "ergo conversational style is invalid" or "ergo evocation narration is best."
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 11:13 PM
    Another quote that reinforces the Intelligence foundation "The mind of the period Spaniard was also educated in matters of science.In various schools and universities, they learned about the philosophies of the ancient Romans and Greeks from the Marannos (Converted Jews).Matters of mathematics and geometry were taught by the Mariscos " From another source. "It was the belief of both...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 11:11 PM
    Your circle and their circle are both involved. https://www.martinez-destreza.com/articles/demystification-spanish-school-part-ii The definitions of Box you gave are pretty new ( the reference to a container seems older ) the name pugilist and similar from Greek era is based on fist. But according to my source/sources I think either my father or my martial arts teacher I think they...
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  • S'mon's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 05:27 PM
    S'mon replied to Human Viability
    Human with +1 all stats is ok, but you can have variant hyman races with different stat bonuses and other abilities. Eg in my Wilderlands the Antili can dual wield rapier and dagger. The Skandiks are always proficient in swimming and sailing.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 05:01 PM
    I think that is worth emphasizing control of space and distance around you and your adversaries seems a feature of this style (another reason this feels like a 4e fighter not a rogue). I am thinking it kind of relates to why boxing is called boxing. Perhaps forcing a blade lock that "grabs" an enemy may be good it captures them and forces them to remain within your "circle".
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  • S'mon's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 04:49 PM
    S'mon replied to Human Viability
    Human with +1 all stats is ok, but you can have variant hyman races with different stat bonuses and other abilities. Eg in my Wilderlands the Antili can dual wield rapier and dagger. The Skandiks are always proficient in swimming and sailing.
    21 replies | 835 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 02:37 PM
    Dresden Files also has been updated several years ago as Dresden Files Accelerated, using Fate Accelerated but PbtA-like playbooks called "Mantles". There is also Modern AGE by Green Ronin, which uses a modified version of the AGE system from their other games (e.g., Dragon Age, Titansgrave, Fantasy Age, Blue Rose, etc.), but set in a modern setting. I believe that fantasy add-ons are also...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 01:21 PM
    Just like in the other thread, you continually failed (miserably) to demonstrate that words like "wield" are non-conversational or "a deliberate word choice for a fantasy RPG." IMO, the phrase "wielding a gun", for example, is conversational language. I had even demonstrated that you can have prose with a young child's vocabulary while others indicated that some people exercise a larger...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 11:57 AM
    Can you explain what you mean by framing sans narrative? Here's a link to an account of a fairly recent session I played of a humorous RPG (The Dying Earth). There was framing. I don't know whether or not it counts as "sans narrative".
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 06:00 AM
    Well, now you have basically DW. Someone narrates something, and it becomes some sort of 'move'. There is NO definition of 'who goes when' or any sort of turn structure in that game, and the various moves are played out as a series of gambles and consequences basically. In fact, it really isn't THAT important in DW 'who goes next'.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 03:23 AM
    Admittedly breaking a swarm is less about killing the whole membership and it should be described rather differently
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 03:01 AM
    Is it cheating to say in 4e the 11th level fighter could handle a level 13 or 14 swarm containing 100 typical guard class soldiers but that it would play more interestingly? Than the drudge work?
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Friday, 21st June, 2019, 01:10 AM
    That seems much more straightforward than the level 1 Feature of the Savant as it isnt worrying about which type of armor they are wearing - I will say thumbs up. Something I have been noticing that it is appropriate to do bonus damage keeps it a secondary attribute and it makes it a bit stikery but that is ok but I do want ot emphasize controlling the space around them ... a bit of...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 08:37 PM
    Hence why I don't find myself coming up with good solutions for those. Getting more surges means not only having that staying power in combat but also an extra amount of effort you can apply to skill challenge use of a skill or to a martial practice. It could be seen as fuel for ALL the other skills and not really needing other skill related value. 5e Con keeps on keeping on for giving more...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 08:32 PM
    Rogue had an at-will that let you shift INT distance and basically disappear the Shadowy Rogue might even be THE batman rogue build instead of the Ninja as I have been calling it. That was a fully functional build if you wanted an Intelligent Secondary type. I posted a loose example but now that I think about it instead of building a fencer flavor I need to make it batman with shuriken. I...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 08:21 PM
    They'll spam you just like they said they would They'll spam you when you're trying to go home And they'll spam you when you're there all alone But I would not feel so all alone Everybody must get spammed
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 04:55 PM
    Compare to Wisdom however which got way too much AND strength and con got only 1 a piece. While I would still change Dungeoneering to Engineering and make it intelligence based - that wouldn't help anything else. Arcana as a skill feels like its "just for magical types" subjectively I suppose it makes 3 feel like 2. But is a component of multi-classing (or making a hero who senses and...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 02:01 PM
    Yes that is less of an issue in 4e, potentially at least for saves and armor class using quick predictive thinking (Int) is enabled for those in a solid way. Some I have seen advocate bringing back Fort/Ref/Wil for 5e instead of having mostly unused saves. Perhaps they could allow initiative based on intelligence. While in 4e the foundation of value "in combat" is covered, they could have...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 12:59 PM
    That's a helluva a lot of damage reduction, especially against a Tier 1 party. I don't think that's a game design issue, but, rather, a GM encounter design one. Both of which seem like an adventure design issues. Which is naturally a problem. Characters should also start play with cyphers. Maybe. There are other Cypher System games also produced by MCG that marginalize the need for...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 11:18 AM
    Much better possibility than I thought actually (but it binds a lot of flavor things things like spell casting and a pet into the class too); The savant is closer but has a bad bad thing it takes all the way to level 6 before getting Brains over Brawn. (making it fundamentally Mad for basic functions ie attacking up until that point err oops)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 04:43 AM
    And a custom encounter power for the The Intelligent Fighter I considered making it against Reflexes.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 03:33 AM
    Everybody must get spammed...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 20th June, 2019, 03:30 AM
    The idea was rather popular during the play testing if I recall. Another cost that we see in 5e is forgoing an attack ie conglomerating an attack it could take 2 of your attacks. You proabably do not do anything but this on your turn... without an action surge or something (maybe ok at really high level to do another attack) I would estimate you shouldn't be able to do it till 5e level 8...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 11:40 PM
    Their design philosophy seems to be a game of mother may I See I can fail too.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 09:11 PM
    Ah good call I noticed it first in the Players Handbook never saw any of the supplements but it was very evocative even the bits in the PHB. When the PHB mentions Belisarius it makes my face light up.
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  • MoonSong's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 09:01 PM
    I've lost count of how many bots it has attracted. I've reported quite a few, I bet Umbran dreams me.
    39 replies | 3673 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 08:49 PM
    YES the number of fighters is not even interesting to me
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 08:30 PM
    Yup
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 04:09 PM
    How about word count in system dedicated to explaining grappling as one axis?
    58 replies | 1915 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 03:10 PM
    I have variously encountered this issue as well, depending on party composition. One potential quick work around is to remove static damage and replace it with variable die damage. So Light weapons do d4; Medium weapons do d6; and Heavy weapons do d8. Or knock them up a die. See what works best for your group. This gives a bit more chance that some weapons can exceed typical damage reduction. The...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 01:15 PM
    failed that one. 4e was a bit conservative perhaps. Even some a cool move like "Come and get it" was such a short range that its pretty realistic. OK how about that for a challenge... do Come and Get it in 5e.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 01:08 PM
    The fighter finally having the ability to actually defend could probably be mentioned (I know its in roles but this and warlord are two archetypes which were never mechanically fulfilled til 4e). However for me its pretty much mechanically everything with the above being just the iceberg tip and its almost easier to mention things I didn't like
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 12:57 PM
    The significantly static hitpoints and potentially bursty damage reminds me of RuneQuest but with the bursts somewhat more under player choice rather fixes the problems it had with not feeling heroic.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 06:01 AM
    You could add generic stances to enable the fighting desparately... etc.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 05:59 AM
    IT was in some ways better but it was lost completely when 3e came out and it has been gone ever since. We are now moving chess pieces in turn and hoping interlacing out of turn actions will remind us of simultaneous action. Basically I have considered how to actually bring that simultaneous resolution back while allowing interesting choices -- a form of 5 pointed star roshambo might be a nice...
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 01:39 AM
    Yeah, there was a suggestion by Tony Vargas (in the other thread IIRC) about the minion/elite 'mode' thing. It could also be called 'aggressive' and 'defensive' or whatever, and there are a few options for implementing it, but that would get you some of it. You could 'go aggro' for a big move, and toss out your daily. HoML has 'vitality points' instead of AP/HS, you can burn them to play your...
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  • AbdulAlhazred's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 01:33 AM
    If it is a FAST iteration of turns, then it is fine. That seems better to me then turning the turn sequence into pea soup, which is what 4e ended up doing.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Wednesday, 19th June, 2019, 12:36 AM
    Arguably Battle==War Master==Lord It just doesn't quite do the job The maneuvers just cannot be used often enough and most lack tactician feel le intelligence driven / affecting whole party for ex and the fighter lacks an appropriate warlordy fighting style. I think it is silly to worry about it becoming a vehicle for the warlord its rather meant to be.
    76 replies | 2446 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 02:57 PM
    4e: * The WARLORD * Power Sources and Class Roles: This led to 4e having the gumption and vision to pull the trigger on something that not even 2e could commit to doing : removing all divine magic classes from Dark Sun. * Class parity and balance * Scene/narrative-based mechanics (AEDU) * Martial classes had interesting and thematic tactical choices that were typically privileged to...
    51 replies | 1966 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 02:39 PM
    I seem to recall that a lot of people also use Mythras, which derives from BRP, as a more generic Homeric fantasy sort of game.
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 02:27 PM
    Sure, but it does inform how I contextualize the conversation of this thread. I don't necessarily think, for example, in terms of a personal preference for "conversational" vs. "literary" narration, but, instead, in terms of communicating what's important in the game fiction for players to engage the scene. The stylistic aesthetic is of lesser importance than the pragmatics. This matter can...
    116 replies | 2506 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 12:46 PM
    I feel like the actual discussion in that thread was about the primary GM role that new gamemasters should focus on learning: scene-framing for player agency or literary performance. The whole conversational vs. literary narration bit was a red herring conversation that we unwittingly got roped into when literary performance camp asked us to conceive of GMing as a conversation without the...
    116 replies | 2506 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 10:13 AM
    A subjective feel : Battle Ready makes creating a fighter feel slightly different like a tax on something a fighter should just have has been lifted. It also acknowledges that initiative can involve deciding/thinking and agressing faster which may be more reliable than reacting faster.
    46 replies | 1556 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 10:05 AM
    Arguably in 4e a Dex Fighter til Slayer came out was basically a Ranger/Rogue Roleplaying baggage ensued. (although very flexible baggage) with honorable mention to certain builds which have it secondary. I said "justified" dump stat. EVEN if you forego control, abilities that work in one arena are enhancing the other as well. Statistically your attributes are more broadly valuable by...
    46 replies | 1556 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Manbearcat's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 04:49 AM
    B/X - The tight, holistic focus of design around its play paradigm. - The Exploration Turn/Rest > Wandering Monster Clock > Resource Attrition/Risk Reward Cycle Loop. - Monster Reactions/Morale. - Gold for xp. 4e - (Again) The tight, holistic focus of design around its play paradigm.
    51 replies | 1966 view(s)
    5 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 18th June, 2019, 04:48 AM
    The following shows the XML for loading the Battle Ready class feature in to the offline Character Builder. And yup it works ;) it also takes a modification of the base class. <RulesElement name ="Battle Ready" type="Class Feature" internal-id="ID_LAD_CLASS_FEATURE_BR1234" source="Martial Power III" revision-date="6/16/2019" > <Flavor>Most people react to the onset of a fight for you it...
    46 replies | 1556 view(s)
    1 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 02:23 PM
    I was considering some of this kind of flexibility Modify Eldritch Knight Arcane Weaponmastery at level 3 when you chose this subclass you have begun to integrate you spellcraft with your weapon use for purposes of attack and magic. Choose one mental attribute this attribute as your spell casting attribute. This attribute becomes the basis of your attack roll and a penalty to saving throws...
    21 replies | 594 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 02:15 PM
    Establishing expectations has a value I suppose even if you have to use the R word.
    31 replies | 999 view(s)
    0 XP
  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 17th June, 2019, 01:36 PM
    LOL Martial Maneuvers
    73 replies | 2203 view(s)
    1 XP
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Monday, 24th June, 2019

  • 01:21 AM - Hussar mentioned pemerton in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    I can walk into your house and tell you which bedroom is a guest bedroom just by looking (assuming you have one). That's not really a stumbling block to me. But, effectively, pemerton, we're back to vocabulary differences. You're simply using simpler language. So, is it fair to say that the division, for you, between conversational and prose is vocabulary choice? After all, you didn't change any word order. So, is it down to vocabulary, yes or no?

Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 02:26 PM - lowkey13 mentioned pemerton in post Formatting- Quotes Not Coming Out Correctly
    Hi Everybody! (HI DR. NICK!) Now tell Dr. Nick where is the trouble. ...so, @Dannyalcatraz first pointed out a problem in my posts, specifically, this one- https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659985-Why-are-we-okay-with-violence-in-RPGs&p=7618903&viewfull=1#post7618903 Since then, two other commenters have noted the same problem. @pemerton @Manbearcat Q. What is the problem? A. I don't know- I can't see it! Everything looks good to me. But it looks like, from what is in Danny's post- https://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?659985-Why-are-we-okay-with-violence-in-RPGs&p=7619116&viewfull=1#post7619116 That my "quotes" are disappearing. It seems that pemerton reports it as a text formatting issue. So, I think this is recent? Maybe an "https:" change? And it's not universal ... it looks fine to me. Quotes that I use from someone else seem fine ... I think it might just be a combination of: Using the "quote" feature around text that I paste into the text box, and paste as "plain text formatting" (in order to avoid html issues). But I'd like the Powers That Be to look at this, and either tell me it's a bug (with a fix on the server side?) or that I need to do things differently so everyone can see what I'm doing; I'm guessing that this bug has led to some recent miscommunications. :) EDIT- Here's a test: Nece...
  • 02:48 AM - Hriston mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine. I don't know about @pemerton’s post, but that post of mine you quoted was not made in reply to you or anything you said. I made it in response to @Hussar’s post which directly preceded mine and which asked why dungeon dressing appears in most editions of the DMG.

Wednesday, 12th June, 2019

  • 09:41 PM - hawkeyefan mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    All substance, no style, and you are just playing a boardgame ... or a wargame. All style, no substance, and you are just doing community theater. That's why it's neither ... or both. It tastes great, and is less filling. (Its a STYLISTIC .... SUBSTANCE, or, put another way, it's a ROLE PLAYING .... GAME ;) ). Yeah, I think I acknowledged that in my post, and I think we've made that clear throughout the thread, despite proponents of either using extreme examples as support. Both are necessary. But I would imagine that most of us feel that one is more important than the other, such as pemerton's stated preference in the OP. To use your comparison (dated though it is, I sadly get it :p), for some folks, lite beer being less filling may be more important to the taste. For others, the opposite is true. While it's both, what matters to people is, I think, what's interesting to discuss.
  • 07:40 PM - uzirath mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Look at the comments you have made in defense of this theory. Long, lengthy, well-written, good grammar, decent vocabulary, engaged with the argument, and so on. Sure. Yes. My framing, narration, gaming conversation, etc., is probably, by some metrics, more "literary" than someone with less formal education, less experience with public speaking, etc. My point wasn't solely about my experience though. I teach RPGs to children ranging from ages 6-14 (and some older). Many of them do not have well-honed skill with language. Many of them succeed at running (and playing in) awesome games, despite that weakness. I am not arguing that good narration can't help—skillful presentation matters in RPGs as in other mediums—but I've slowly come to accept pemerton's basic premise that it is not the most significant element. I regularly see GMs with strong language skills struggling to attract players to their tables because they talk too much or only want the story to go their way. For the kids who stick with it, there is much to enjoy: the GMs may write great descriptions, have good voice control, use spooky foreshadowing, etc. But, often, the table nearby, with a GM who is flustered and has weak vocabulary manages to be more popular because that GM is refereeing a more engaging story, a story primarily written by the other players, dependent on interesting (or hilarious or gruesome) interactions between characters and the fictional environment. Similarly, in college, I had the opportunity to do a two-year folklore study of RPGs. (This was amazing. Still pinching myself.) I referred in my last post to the "torture" of typing up transcripts. That was a big part of the project. I ended up with hundreds of hours of recordings of live D&D games....
  • 06:29 PM - darkbard mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Since I clearly lack the cognitive ability to understand the [I]context of this discussion [...] why don't you explain it to me like I'm a slightly dumb golden retriever, since it is very very tiring for people to keep saying "But you just don't understand what the OP really meant" without proffering an explanation. Histrionic much? Look, if you find this so "very tiring," what, then, is the purpose of your reentry into the discussion every few hundred posts? Clearly you must derive something from this discussion beyond the occasional impulse to meet head and keyboard? Good? So tell me, in your own words, what exactly the intent behind the term "literary" is, and why that distinction matters for the post your responded to. :) As I stated pretty early in this thread, I believe any attempt to define some immutable, univeral definition for "literary/literature" is a fool's errand. What matters for this thread is not fixing some definition but rather pemerton's argument that what makes TTRPGs unique and distinct from literature is the framing of situations as a call to action on the part of the PC-inhabiting-player over descriptive flourishes as performance for performance's sake. While this thread has occasionally offered some other interesting discussion, I don't believe squabbling over definitions has provided anything really useful. So, no, I won't define "exactly the intent behind the term 'literary'" beyond what I have said above: this thread's main thrust is about framing engaging calls to action as core to TTRPGing over performance for performance's sake (though, and perhaps I separate myself from pemerton on this, I don't think this is a universal statement: I think there are gamestyles and players who value performance for performance's sake over the engaging call to action).

Tuesday, 11th June, 2019

  • 12:38 PM - Aldarc mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Though you may have had this game in mind for your OP, pemerton, Dungeon World is built on what you describe: GM frames the scene - turns to the PC: "What do you do?" - and then the PC narrates how their character develops or responds to the fiction. Depending upon the results triggered by the dice, the GM then may shift the fictional framing of the story and repeat the cycle.

Monday, 10th June, 2019

  • 04:26 AM - uzirath mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ... current position of the campaign. My priorities have been the following, in descending order of importance: Get the basic premise of the scenario down. Customize things such that the particular PCs in their particular spot in the campaign have a compelling reason to get involved with the adventure. Make sure there are elements that connect to the PCs both in terms of roleplaying and mechanics (i.e., have something demonic for the demon hunter to engage with). Make two handouts (a few bits of text from a ship's logbook and a scrappy map). I don't typically do this sort of thing, but I enjoy such elements as a player, so when there's an easy way to do it, I go for it. Review some mechanics that might come into play that I'm rusty on. Think about various scenes (locations, really) that are likely to come into play and how I might describe them. Just jotting down some words in the margins basically. My sense is that by virtue of my first priority, I share some elements of pemerton's position. (Indeed, I continue to follow this messy thread because I find the premise to be useful in terms of thinking about my own approach.) Some of my other priorities (i.e., #2 and #4), seem to veer toward the more literary camp. I don't really think of it as being "literary," in the sense of aiming for high art. The other players and I are fans of immersion, though, and I particularly enjoy vivid scenes, so I try to provide a certain level of detail and atmosphere. I find that if I wing all the setting elements, things end up too bland for my tastes. A bit of forethought gives me a chance to inject some life into it.
  • 12:10 AM - Hussar mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ... can try to run a game in a literary style. but I don't think it is necessary. Nor do I think it is particularly advisable. This is why I don't think we're as far apart as it might appear. I look at words like "intricately" and I think "literary" not "conversation" because the words "intricately carved" would almost never appear in a conversation. Aldarc above talks about a mechanic using technical language. Thing is, that's not really a conversation either. That's a mechanic imparting information to the customer, but, it's probably mostly one direction and if the mechanic dives too far into technical jargon, there's no conversation at all as the listener has no idea what's being talked about. Is it "literary"? Maybe not. But, it's certainly not conversation either. Aldarc keeps pressing me to prove that the language is literary. I'm not because the definition of "literary" is so nebulous. I don't have to. I only have to show that it isn't conversational to show that pemerton is wrong. And I CAN show that because the language that's being chosen, often deliberately chosen, is being chosen to evoke specific reactions and is language that would almost never appear in a conversation.

Sunday, 9th June, 2019

  • 07:33 PM - Imaro mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Let me ask a question to pemerton, Hawkeye, Bedrockgames and Aldarc. Would you use the same words/language/etc. to describe a remote village in the mountains for say a Ravenloft campaign vs a Four color superhero game like Icons? let's assume good faith in that the Icons village isn't supposed to be haunted or anything tht would make it more Ravenloft-esque.... EDIT: Meant hawkeyefan ...
  • 02:30 PM - Aldarc mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I asked, on page 1 and again on page 119: if TRPG is literary, then what? if TRPG isn't literary, then what?Okay. Good for you, I guess. But even if pemerton never addressed the question explicitly, it does not seem all that difficult with a modicum of effort to piece together pemerton's answers within the page frame of 1 and 119. I also feel that it's important to point out, since you had mentioned it earlier, that Karl Popper's falsification testing (1) is not necessarily applicable outside of scientific testing, where it has been criticized in other fields (e.g., politics, history, literature, mathematics, etc.), and (2) it has also been criticized within scientific testing and science. So I am skeptical whether a Popperian approach is feasible for our present inquiry or whether it is (likely) a misguided attempt to fit a square peg into a round hole. If this conversational endeavor is also a literary endeavor, *how does that overlap of endeavor differ from non-overlap? You still haven't answered my question.I don't think that your question is particularly clear. GM narration which uses an *appropriate* measure of literary...
  • 08:03 AM - Hussar mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...s are gonna balk at the word “wield”? Or “gaunt”? Come on. Sorry, you're right, they aren't unknown. But, my point being, they aren't what you'd use in conversation either. Would you actually use the words "wield" or "gaunt" in a conversation? "A gaunt man wielding a gun robbed a liquor store" is not something you will ever hear in a conversation. You certainly might hear "A thin man armed with a gun" or "carrying a gun", but "wielding"? That's not going to be used. The way I'm seeing it, we've got a spectrum with high art prose on one end (think Tolkien, high Gygaxian, H. P. Lovecraft - if we want to use genre literature) and what you'd hear in a conversation or in the news on the other. As far as I can tell, Bedrockgames is arguing for a level of prose where "an orc with a sword enters the room" is about as much description as he wants. You gave a Githyanki description that is much further along the scale, as did I with the description of the Vengaurak. As far as pemerton goes, I really have no idea where on the scale he's coming down on since he's playing arpeggios up and down the scale so long as he can keep pretending that there is any real disagreement going on. So, no, it's not "10% of the description was useless". Sorry, I never meant that as the take away. Not at all. It's that the presence of that 10% slides the description away from the "pure conversation" end of the scale and further (and, really, where it's 10% of the words, pretty far actually) down towards the "high art" end of the scale.
  • 05:44 AM - Hussar mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...s "gaunt" or "wield" in a spoken situation. Hussar, I feel the shoe is on the other foot. Why won't you engage with the fact that you disagree with me? Go back to your example of the dwarf, or of the Scarred Land Monster. Why do you think that entertaining descriptions are an important part of RPGing? EDIT: And here is more evidence of disagreement: Here you assert exactly what the OP denies. So instead of quibbling over the way the OP is framed, why don't you elaborate on this. I'll give you my response: I've sat in game that involved English other than "bog standard colloquial . . . every day language". And they sucked, because (i) I could get better versions of such by reading LotrR or REH Conan or Stan's Soapbox in an old Marvel Comic, and (ii) the actual thing I'd come there to do - play a character in a RPG - wasn't happening because the GM's situations sucked. You appear to prioritise things differntly. Please say more about that. I don't disagree with you pemerton. I 100% agree with you. Playing an RPG does not require using high art language. SO, nope, not disagreeing. And, you say it yourself, the reason the game sucked is because the GM's situations sucked. Has NOTHING to do with the language used. Again, EVERYONE 100% agrees with you that content is important. No one is disagreeing with you. The only reason this argument is so ongoing is because you keep obfuscating the issues. Your issue isn't with the language that was being used, but, with the fact that the GM didn't design interesting scenarios. Again, well, duh. Boring situations=bad game. News at 11!! Holy crap, stop the presses. :erm: But, that's not your arguement. Your argument is that the game sucked because of the higher language used. But, that's not true. You need BOTH for a good game. Same as has been said all the way since the first freaking page.
  • 04:38 AM - hawkeyefan mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    @hawkeyefan... can you just give an example of what you feel would be literary?? I'm not certain your and @pemerton 's idea of literary line up since he claimed I seemed to understand it and my understanding was non-conversational, evocative description. I’m sure mine and pemerton’s ideas don’t exactly match, no. But that’s fine. I don’t entirely agree with his premise, but I understand it, and I think he has a point. But I’m only speaking for myself. I think I’ve given examples at this point. I don’t think describing something is enough....I think that the way its described has to matter. Focus on the how more than the what. So a description that lists the physical traits of a creature (even a fantastical creature that necessitates some level of fantastic description) isn’t, to me, what’s being cited. Some attempt for the description itself to have meaning of some sort beyond the description. Use if metaphor or symbolism and the like...other literary devices being used or established through the narration.
  • 01:52 AM - Imaro mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    hawkeyefan... can you just give an example of what you feel would be literary?? I'm not certain your and pemerton 's idea of literary line up since he claimed I seemed to understand it and my understanding was non-conversational, evocative description.
  • 01:09 AM - Hussar mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    That's been done. You're correct. There seems to be an underlying assumption by some posters that any disagreement must be the result of having confused the definition of our terms, and that if only those could be sorted out then everyone would see that what is being said is true or false. Or, to put it differently, there seems to be some sort of reluctance to recognise and talk about actual differences of opinion. Hussar seems to be an example, because he keeps insisting that he agrees with me whereas it seems obvious to me, and must be obvious to anyone else who's read this thread, that he has a very different view from me about what is important in RPGing: No. Not everything the New Yorker reviews is high art. Not everything that aspires to literary quality achieves it. So even things that aspire to be high art don't always make it. /snip Oh, FFS, after all the criticisms of "equivocation" we have one of the biggest waffles of all. Good grief, pemerton. "Oh, RPG language doesn't aspire to be good enough to be reviewed in the New Yorker", sure, great, I agree. "Oh, no, not everything in the New Yorker is literary that gets reviewed." Round and round and round. Total and complete baloney. Yeah, what a freaking waste of time. You're not even trying to hide that you are no longer arguing in good faith.

Saturday, 8th June, 2019

  • 10:35 PM - Maxperson mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I feel perhaps this is a bit pedantic. “Where are the elevators?” - “Follow these guys.” It answers the question. It's neither pedantic, nor does it answer the question, except that ANY answer is technically an answer. "Where are the elevators?" - "Goonygoogoo!" It's an answer. To me, this is a very low bar then, and I doubt it’s what was in mind with the OP. I feel like including a few adjectives isn’t what we’re talking about. The problem is that the OP doesn't get to decide what is literary quality for anyone but himself. Some people will have a low bar, others middle, and yet others high. That's the problem with using terms like literary quality or using personal definition. pemerton often kills his own threads by using contentious terms that get people arguing over what the term means, rather than talking about the OP. If he just described what he liked without using contentious terms, this sort of thing would happen far less frequently.
  • 06:01 PM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Way to deliberately ignore the important part of my post. You know, in your first response to me it actually sounded as if you might debate this one in good faith. I should have known better. Which part was the important part? I figured it was the question, but that question is based on the strawman argument you've shortened pemerton's points down into. And the response to that question is literally go re-read pemerton's post again and try not to strawman it -- he answers your question quite well. Why is it you feel that you can ignore large parts of people's posts and that this is engaging in good faith but when people engage the lack of your understanding due to this ignoring, we're suddenly arguing in bad faith? Or are you just tone policing?
  • 05:20 AM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    This is what he said. "Somewhat contra Lanefan, it often doesn't matter at all if the players think different things about the fiction." Where in there does it specify non-key details? It doesn't. He was very general with his claim. Seriously. :| Okay, I suppose your point in the last few threads was: "[t]he thing is, those times where it doesn't matter.......don't matter." This looks like perfect agreement with pemerton, so we're done here? Or, maybe, is there a lot more than a single line in your posts and the rest might have some context or expansion of the idea? I wouldn't want to strawman your argument by taking a single line out of of the larger argument you made and treat it as if it stands entirely on it's own. That would be a bad look.

Friday, 7th June, 2019

  • 06:19 PM - Ovinomancer mentioned pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ... many feet that is would be the unnecessary specificity. As for the rocks, the could very well have mattered. They would be a hazard to move quickly over or fight in. It was a fairly involved battle scene. He thought I understood that they were close enough to attack me. I didn't. These things happen in theater of the mind. That doesn't change that it was the GM's error in not providing the key details, and also in not clarifying when a misunderstanding was apparent. The first is not a bad thing -- we all make these mistakes. The second is less forgivable. The group I play with now uses minis and dry erase maps to avoid that sort of thing. It's one of those things I mentioned that minimizes the issues that crops up with people imagining different things. It just replaces it with a different set of problems (and doesn't fully remove the one under discussion, either). ;) In other words, you can't present gridded play as superior to TofM. It's just different. What pemerton was saying with regards to this is also very good advice for avoiding confusion. Prioritize information presentation as it pertains to character interaction with the intent and theme of the scene and avoid unnecessary details. Unsurprisingly, this dovetails with his arguments about literary quality.


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Monday, 24th June, 2019

  • 04:37 PM - Michael Silverbane quoted pemerton in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    And of course, when we take conversation as it occurs without that sort of regimentation, it has a spontaneous non-grammaticality that is very different from written and edited prose. Except where that written and edited prose is presented in a conversational style, or is simply badly written. There is also, of course the fact that prose is typically used to mean plain or natural writing, as opposed to poetic writing. Except here, of course, where it is being used to mean something along the lines of, "of literary worth" and "something that non-nerds would not use."
  • 02:29 PM - Aldarc quoted pemerton in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    I can walk into your house and tell you which bedroom is a guest bedroom just by looking (assuming you have one). That's not really a stumbling block to me. But, effectively, pemerton, we're back to vocabulary differences. You're simply using simpler language. So, is it fair to say that the division, for you, between conversational and prose is vocabulary choice? After all, you didn't change any word order. So, is it down to vocabulary, yes or no?He's using simpler language, but I don't think he is necessarily using simpler vocabulary. There is not much difference of vocabulary between "rubbish is scattered around what was once a fine guest bedroom" and "it's a run-down bedroom with rubbish scattered about." And we could hardly say that those differences amount to any notions of higher vocabulary: e.g., fine, guest, once, what, was. Stylistically, however, the former does appear more elevated than the latter. The analysis I've just offered might also be relevant to the ongoing exchange between Imaro and Aldarc (? I think, haven't gone back to check) about what a conversational style might actually look like.I'll freely admit that Imaro's task if a bit of a ...
  • 01:16 PM - Maxperson quoted pemerton in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    Also, how by mere visual inspection can one tell that it was once a guest bedroom? The check-out instructions and Gideon Bible?

Friday, 21st June, 2019

  • 02:57 PM - lowkey13 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Can you explain what you mean by framing sans narrative? Here's a link to an account of a fairly recent session I played of a humorous RPG (The Dying Earth). There was framing. I don't know whether or not it counts as "sans narrative". So, I won't comment on your other thread (so as not to derail it), but I would note the following as general comments: 1. While I have not played the game, I have read Vance extensively, including The Dying Earth. As a kid, I loved this series (APPENDIX N!), with the whole baroque language and wordplay (kind of like a starter set to Oscar Wilde) and some black comedy with the wit ... but I wouldn't say that they are comedic sources. I would, however, say that some of the gender relations depicted (and I am putting this kindly) haven't aged well. 2. Anyway, I find it difficult to understand playing a game set entirely in a milieu, and using mechanics and narrative, from a setting you acknowledge knowing nothing about? Similar to someone using the One Ring RPG ...

Sunday, 16th June, 2019

  • 07:25 PM - lowkey13 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I don't understand what you're trying to achieve. I think that is almost always the case, and I appreciate the candor. In fairness, does anyone ever know what they are trying to achieve? Or are we all more like dogs chasing cars? But I did notice that, since the beginning of the thread, you never really grappled with the use of RPGs in genre; specifically, humor.* So, how does framing sans narrative work in a humorous RPG? That's also an answer to your question I quoted, by the by. :)

Saturday, 15th June, 2019

  • 04:19 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    @Riley37, you didn't answer my question as to what you think it adds to the thread to insist that @Hriston said something that he didn't, on the basis of attributing a meaning to his words that they were not intended to bear, and which no reasonable reader of them in the context of their production would impute to them. I have no opinion on whether that action would add anything to thread; no one has done the action which you just now described, not as you describe it. Ovinomancer made an assertion which I considered untrue, and I challenged that assertion. I made no statement about what Hriston *intended*; I repeated a quote of Hriston's words, *exactly as written*. You can try to "stir the pot" between me and Ovinomancer, if you like, but I doubt you'll get results which are both successful and useful. If you want to get him and/or me thrown out of the thread, well, you can get me out of the thread just by PMing me a request not to comment further in this thread. The mods have enough on the...

Friday, 14th June, 2019

  • 04:31 PM - lowkey13 quoted pemerton in post Formatting- Quotes Not Coming Out Correctly
    So I don't think this has anything to do with https. I would guess it's to do with the environment where you are writing/editing your posts. Strangely, I just use the website. Nothing fancy. But I am guessing that what is happening is that I pasting as "plain text" (to remove formatting problems that are popping up) and that is somehow forcing it into black, as opposed to "automatic text coloring." And it only happens in those quotes because I only copy and paste into those ersatz quotes I do (to quote other stuff). ....let's try this- I use the traditional colour scheme (white post text, orange button text, on black background). In the post I mentioned in the "literary endeavour" thread there are two quote blocks. The first I can read. The second is, for me, an empty quote block. When I highlight it the text appears. I assume that the text has COLOR tags around it that are making it black. That's a pure cut and paste. I use the traditional colour scheme (white post text, orange bu...
  • 06:07 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Is anyone seriously suggesting, on the basis of this post, that Hriston thinks that word choice never matters to human conversation? or that rudeness ("being a jerk") can't affect human communication? Hey, if you have questions about anyone's assertions about who is or isn't a jerk, then please take them up with Ovinomancer, not with me. That's his topic, not mine. If you want to defend the rigorous factual accuracy of Ovinomancer's assertion "Literally no one in this thread has said otherwise", then good luck with that. I doubt that you'll earn his gratitude; but I've been wrong before. Is anyone asserting, on this basis, that speaking loud enough to be heard or choosing the right word to accurately describe something is an aspect of literary quality? If no one was before, then I am now. Speaking loud enough to be heard, and choosing the right word to accurately describe something, are aspects of literary quality. A poetry reading which fails on either or both of those qualities, will fai...

Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 10:54 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    The post you quoted is nearly 400 words, has two footnotes and an edit, and references Hemingway and Henry Miller. So why are you replying to my four-word (and a link) post, rather than replying directly to the 400-word post? Perhaps because I said the same thing, but more elegantly, and you hope to elicit further elegant responses, by engaging with me rather than with the anti-paladin?
  • 02:13 AM - Imaro quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Sure. Literally no one in this thread has said otherwise. I'm starting to think you've maybe missed the point. Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine. Because color (dungeon dressing) is content that provides atmosphere when imagined by the participants at the table. The quality of form with which it’s expressed isn’t what’s important but rather whether the odors, noises, furnishings, and items found in an area suggest a torture chamber, a harem, or a wizard’s laboratory. In other words, it’s the actual content that matters, not the particular words that are used and the way they are said. ... My take on this is the same as @Hriston's - it sounds to me like the situation is not interesting enough! As I've already posted in this thread, my advice ...

Wednesday, 12th June, 2019

  • 01:05 AM - lowkey13 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I don't quite follow this, and so am not sure what view is being attributed to me. For my answers to @Manbearcat's questions, see the post immediately upthread. Well- it was exactly what I thought. The “yes” to a no (literally with the bad writer example!). You just have have a very different definition of things than I do.

Tuesday, 11th June, 2019

  • 03:38 PM - hawkeyefan quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    This isn't something I have strong views on. When I'm trying to adjudicate an action as GM, and I'm GMing a game in which the fiction has a big affect on resolution and consequences (say Buring Wheel or Traveller) then I like to have a fairly clear sense of what the character is doing, and overly complicated narration from the player can sometime hurt that. But if the players want to banter with one another, or affirm their PC personalities against one another, that's fine with me. With you "high plains of Valinor" example, I would see that as somewhat system-dependent. In some systems it's pure self-indulgence. In my 4e game, when the player of the Deva Sage of Ages recalls his days in the heavens, he is warming us up for some potentially unorthodox deployment of one of his memory-oriented abilities. In my MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic games, nearly every pool includes a Distinction that comes either from the PC sheet or the scene, and so there has to be some narration to contextualise that. So maybe...
  • 12:13 PM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    at the heart of good GMing in a RPG is framing situations: the emotional heft of the RPGing situation is generated by the call to action and the invitation to respond as a protgaonist; not the evocative power of the narration. Thanks! What's at the heart of good playing in a RPG? Responding as a protagonist? Some of my favorite moments as a player, are times when I inspired another player to high-immersion inter-character RP dialogue. Those moments are worthwhile, in the context of a story in which the PC party is engaged in some worthwhile enterprise, so perhaps they depend indirectly on previously established protagonist response.
  • 05:10 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    In my 4e game, when the player of the Deva Sage of Ages recalls his days in the heavens, he is warming us up for some potentially unorthodox deployment of one of his memory-oriented abilities. I recall a character in a Hero System (Champions) game, who had Overall Skill Levels, with the limitation that he could only use them while recounting an anecdote from his decades of service all across the Empire, and applying the lesson from that anecdote to the current situation. Was I entirely mistaken, in my theory that your OP was related to experiences in which GMs used pretentiously florid narration, as "icing" in a vain attempt to compensate for half-baked "cakes"? Apparently so, since you say that you don't have much experience of spotlight-hoggin' narration, and thus you're managed not to cross the path of spotlight-hoggin' GMs. Have you accomplished the goals of your OP?
  • 04:52 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    And if the OP was The Old Man and the Sea then I might have won a Nobel Prize Would the Nobel team consider a post in a TRPG forum as a candidate for the Literature prize? If so, that might go a long way to break the elitist stigma against assigning literary value to anything connected with the fantasy and science fiction genres.
  • 04:20 AM - Manbearcat quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Maybe posters who think the thread is not worthwhile, or is overly cluttered, could cease posting in it? Your threads suck! And you're terrible! And we hate you! More stuff!

Monday, 10th June, 2019

  • 03:22 PM - Manbearcat quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Why not? This take me, at least, back to some of the points @Manbearcat was making fairly early in this thread. If I'm going to use a qallupilluit in my game, I will want to establish a situation which gives it some sort of heft or significance. There are very many ways of doing that (and obviously RPG system will have a significant impact, on top of system-independent techniques). In my experience, an elaborate or literary description isn't one of them. If the sudden appearance of a terrifying hag from under the pack ice isn't - for whatever of innumerable possible reasons - going to engage the players, why would, or should, piling on the evocative words make a difference? So the Qallupilluit is quintessential bogeyman mythology. For bogeyman mythology to be thematically potent, it has to have some way to hook into the PC's childhood or folklore, otherwise, its just another creepy monster. So this is actually the perfect example where a GM's deftness of framing is hierarchically the ape...
  • 03:12 PM - Imaro quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    If the village in the Marvel game is a small, remote, sinister mountain village in (say) Latveria, then probably yes. I addressed this... it's not a "sinister" village I use the words I need to describe the situation. These will depend on mood, whim, what has previously been said, what seems to matter in the current situation, etc, as well as (obviously) upon what I want to describe. That is to say, the words I use will depend on all the normal determinants of spontaneous human communication. I don't feel like this is right... in conversation we rarely are consciously choosing our words it's more a stream of conscious effort (which is why people often put their foot in their mouth or have to correct/explain what they actually meant)... while in this situation you are consciously selecting certain words to emphasize a mood, theme, etc.
  • 02:56 AM - Riley37 quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    In my own experience, when this occurs it's very often due to weak situation, weak framing, little or no call to action. Have you often (or too often) seen that happen, in a situation such that the GM attempted to paper over such weaknesses in the story content, via florid narration? or via other emphasis on the *scenery* of the story? The arboreal elven settlements in the Jackson "Lord of the Rings" movies are visually impressive, but using them as the setting is no substitute for call to action, nor is the term "arboreal" a substitute for call to action. If your experience with narration with literary pretensions, is narration which is not also in the service of effective situation, effective framing, and effective call to action, then you understandably have an axe to grind. Your experience would be like buying cake from a bakery which lacks competence at the skill of mixing flour, sugar and water, and heating them for the right temperature at the right duration; and which attempts to ...
  • 12:33 AM - Lanefan quoted pemerton in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I don't think there are any Americans among me and my colleagues. A couple of Candians.Candians - from Candyland, maybe? ;)


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