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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 04:20 PM
    I can't comment on your experiences only my own and the reason I feel less connected with conversational narration because it lacks atmosphere or mood which is definitely something I as my character want described and because the back and forth questions to get basic information it often devolves into is hard for me to correlate to anything along the lines of how my character takes in info or...
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    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 04:07 PM
    Initial thoughts... I tend to lean towards liking the prose approach as a GM, whether that's boxed text in a pre-made adventure or prose that I have written up/improv 'd myself. It allows me a chance to create atmosphere while also allowing (when pre-written) the chance to make sure I haven't missed anything important. As a player for me it's just more evocative and immersive than the...
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    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 03:47 PM
    Imitation is the greatest form of flattery ;)
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    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 03:33 PM
    No it wasn't... I think you missed the point.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 03:33 PM
    Well if you start a thread around that premise I'd be more than happy to discuss since I think there's too much baggage in this thread to have any type of meaningful discussion and alot of posters have already bailed on it.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 02:43 PM
    @Aldarc 's post above yours is definitely about which is more important... And contrary to what you've been saying it's been framed like that by quite a few posters in this thread. EDIT: Emphasis mine... IMO this would have been a much more interesting discussion topic
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 02:37 PM
    EDIT: Not even worth it.
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    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 02:31 PM
    The analogy was with the game of basketball, not with how it's played in specific arenas...NBA & Globetrotter exhibitions (which aren't even an example of basketball being played). Unless we are now only talking about RPG's played for presentation to an audience...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 02:24 PM
    Yep and that's why no meaningful discussion is taking place between the two main sides of this argument. You see it as totally superfluous to the game while I and others see it as an integral part of the whole... of course if every time we bring up an example it gets put in the..that's not what we are talking about bin... but when a definite line is asked for it's brushed off as not really...
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    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 01:48 PM
    This pretty much sums up my stance since this thread began. It's like asking what's more important in playing basketball, being able to dribble or being able to shoot... Both are, even though you could technically play a good game without doing one or the other and/or putting emphasis on one over the other.
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    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 03:33 AM
    My advice to someone who wants to be a great DM would be to focus on both (as well as other things not brought up in this thread), get better at both and practice both because they are intertwined and complement each other. That said play to your strengths and shamelessly steal (content or presentation) to make up for what you are weakest in. I think stressing one as core or higher than the...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 03:18 AM
    Uhm... *shrug*... ok
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    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 03:08 AM
    I was speaking to the genesis of the tangent... but not sure how this changes what you said.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 02:13 AM
    Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 01:06 AM
    Sooo... Are you agreeing that how content is presented can determine whether people wish to engage with it?
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 13th June, 2019, 12:47 AM
    I guess it's not just whether content is good or not... I guess the desire to engage with it or not can actually depend on how it's presented... Who woulda thunk it... :erm:
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 05:10 PM
    Is this a question of length or of literary quality?
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 04:08 PM
    Sorry about that I assumed... Not necessarily a dichotomy but A contrast comparison between running games in a conversational-esque narrative ( How you would speak to someone if you were having a everyday conversation with them) vs a more constructed or structured narrative (Planned descriptions, word usage, structure or whatever else to evoke emotions, mood, atmosphere, etc.) I agree...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 03:33 PM
    But do you consider this conversational or a constructed narrative?
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 03:23 PM
    Okay I find this interesting... so if you're playing grim and gritty fanatasy say Zweihander or Warhammer you don't use different descriptive elements in your narration/"conversation" vs. say a Lord of the Rings-esque high fantasy game? If you're playing Dark Sun it gets the same treatment/presentation/descriptive elements and narrative content as Ravenloft or Dragonlance? You're telling me the...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Monday, 10th June, 2019, 03:12 PM
    I addressed this... it's not a "sinister" village I don't feel like this is right... in conversation we rarely are consciously choosing our words it's more a stream of conscious effort (which is why people often put their foot in their mouth or have to correct/explain what they actually meant)... while in this situation you are consciously selecting certain words to emphasize a mood,...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 07:33 PM
    Let me ask a question to pemerton, Hawkeye, Bedrockgames and Aldarc. Would you use the same words/language/etc. to describe a remote village in the mountains for say a Ravenloft campaign vs a Four color superhero game like Icons? let's assume good faith in that the Icons village isn't supposed to be haunted or anything tht would make it more Ravenloft-esque.... EDIT: Meant hawkeyefan...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 06:19 PM
    We are telling you we focus on both... without situation or scenario what am I using evocative language for? Without evocative language my players wont be engaged with the situation or scenario. If pressed I jot down situation or scenario notes with what I call keywords and improvise description with said keywords.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Sunday, 9th June, 2019, 01:52 AM
    hawkeyefan... can you just give an example of what you feel would be literary?? I'm not certain your and pemerton 's idea of literary line up since he claimed I seemed to understand it and my understanding was non-conversational, evocative description.
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    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 11:37 PM
    What I find strange about this is that the clothes are important enough (and I would assume colorful enough) to be noticeable and yet the actual colors have never been commented on by other players, NPC's, etc. I just find that weird does everyone just comment using the word colorful?
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 02:52 PM
    I think that is contentious... unless you are claiming that you can have a complete and satisfying rpg session that is just one big or numerous calls to action... that isn't the only "core" (here's that word again) element. A boardgame like Descent or the 4e based boardgames are based around calls to action... videogames are based around a call to action... this seems so broadly applicable to...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 02:50 AM
    Depends on the purpose of the scene/situation/setting/etc. I've never played in a game where everything is a call to action. More importantly why cant I use my evocative words to incite a call for action.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Friday, 7th June, 2019, 02:44 AM
    Honestly this is as clear as mud... you use literary quality...then interchange it with performance and then admit description is required again without clearly showing where the line between what you consider just description vs. Evocative language actually sits...
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    Thursday, 6th June, 2019, 11:26 PM
    Hey, Tony... no offense but I kind of know your stance and can usually guess ( in the ballpark at least) your answers to anything 4e related. Which is to say I was genuinely interested in a different viewpoint.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 6th June, 2019, 09:38 PM
    I'd definitely be interested in why you think that 4e's game design was better than any other edition... whether you think said design made it a better ttrpg as opposed to just a better game and what user criteria is being used to determine this. Also if it is objectively better than every other edition why is 5e doing so much better... why is Pathfinder doing so much better? By better I mean...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 6th June, 2019, 09:27 PM
    Eh...IMO most analogies are dubious... especially when taken to silly extremes.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 6th June, 2019, 08:09 PM
    It also means better or worse hardware (the DM) can oftentimes run software (Specific games) better or worse irregardless of the quality of said software. Edit: you could even make the argument that some software is just downright incompatible with some hardware... again it doesnt really reflect on how functional or good the software is.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 6th June, 2019, 06:54 PM
    IMO... the GM is akin to the hardware while the rpg is the software...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Thursday, 6th June, 2019, 03:24 PM
    I'll ask again, since I was pointed to an article about how hard "literary" is to define (and yet here we are discussing the poorly chosen word in relation to rpg's)... is there an agreed upon definition of literary for this thread... otherwise how can anyone discuss something without agreeing upon its meaning? Edit: so far all I've seen is various things being disqualified as "literary" oh...
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    Thursday, 6th June, 2019, 01:00 PM
    Yeah I'm going to go ahead and state that if the extent of your description for a climactic battle with an ancient dragon is... Big red lizard with wings that breathes fire... I'm not playing in your game (and if this is the way you've described everything up to this point we wont even get this far...). Doesnt matter what's at stake you'd be boring me and my players so much we wont care... so for...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 09:13 PM
    I think your issue is predicated on the length of the boxed text as opposed to its literary quality though. The two keep being confused in this thread. Side A: We like/enjoy/get emotionally invested in/whatever a well written description... Side B: Yeah I dont like long boring narrative by the GM before action in my rpg's Side A: Who said they did?
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 09:04 PM
    So the difference boils down to whether players interrupt each other or not and/or the length of description a group prefers. Seems a silly distinction to me but whatever.
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    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 09:03 PM
    No in my mind playing an rpg isn't passive entertainment... so claiming any players are passive (not acting or making choices but just being read to) means they aren't actually playing an rpg.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 06:33 PM
    I'd wonder why a player wouldn't wait (at least until the 1st sentence is finished) to see if their question would be answered... Edit: I'm not understanding passive then because in all rpg's the players will eventually interact/respond with/to the narrative being presented by the GM... is amount of time the determining factor?? If not what determines a group as passive vs. not??? Can the GM...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 03:26 PM
    But, and yes this is a simplified example, I can just as easily narrate 4 snarling goblins that have weapons drawn as part of a room's description (and there are plenty of examples of this type of thing in published modules) so how is this different from a call to action... if at all? Edit: Narration can in effect assist that call to action by keeping the momentum of action going (since...
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    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 02:56 PM
    So is this what you mean in an rpg situation... not regulated to but including active interruption of what you are saying? Besides active interruption what would be other ways of interacting beyond that of a passive audience that using narration disallows? Though I think I would still contend I'm passive until you've communicated the situation (a bomb about to go off in the buiding) to me and I...
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    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 02:46 PM
    So it probably has been answered... right, I'll get on searching over 100 pages of a thread for what might be answered.... Oh and for the record this isn't school or a job I don't have work, and I don't have a responsibility related to this. Chill dude. You don't want to help fine then just don't reply... it's way easier than the wasted word count you're adding to.
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    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 02:39 PM
    So then why make a useless reply? Thanks... :confused:
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    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 02:33 PM
    Link? And if not why bother posting this the thread is enormous at this point...
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    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 02:32 PM
    Ok I'm more confused... If "Everyone gets a chance to say what they have to say..." then at some point narration is occurring and there is a passive audience listening to it. I'm failing to see the difference here since characters are free to ask questions, act or do whatever they want once the boxed text (or sometimes when the boxed text) of say a module is being relayed. Now if we are...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Wednesday, 5th June, 2019, 01:35 PM
    What does this even mean? Anytime I'm relaying information (regardless of it's literary quality), unless you are constantly interrupting me, you are (at least until I am finished speaking) a passive audience member to whatever I am narrating.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 10:01 PM
    LMAO... you're really equating preference of little to no wordcraft with having life threatening allergies, religious belief systems and so on... this is really getting absurd... and I'm the one creating fallacies?? See and this is where it gets silly because "quality" as used here is never defined. Again as @Hussar said earlier if we are talking Shakespearean prose then we're all in...
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 09:46 PM
    I assumed that the MAYA test would be whether it felt familiar as D&D... I have played a ton of non-D&D games but I don't think they factored in much on whether 4e felt familiar or not when I cracked open 4e and got ready to run a D&D game. YMMV and all that of course.
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 09:07 PM
    Yeah where somehow you dictating cheese pizza for everyone is more inclusive of those who only eat pepperoni pizza because... reasons?? Still not convinced. Can yo have a narrative without any type of wordcraft? If not wordcraft is at some level necessary.
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 08:58 PM
    This still doesn't really clarify what you meant... Uhm... ok... I guess I can't wait for the rest...uhm...yeah ok.
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 08:44 PM
    Lol... Nice rebuttal... "cause I don't agree". Dude it's pretty simple, either it's important and thus it's inclusion (to whatever degree) matters or it's not important and it's absence would be fine. Quit waffling.
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 08:33 PM
    Why would you have to play anything besides D&D for 4e to fail the MAYA test for D&D?? Or did you mean it only fails the MAYA test for an rpg in general? EDIT: Actually if that is what you mean I still don't think this statement makes any sense. EDIT 2: Also were you ever going to post anything supporting your claim about Mike Mearls actively sabotaging 4e??
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 08:30 PM
    1. No since this is a leisure activity it is all about whether enjoyment is garnered from it... if you enjoy rpg'ing for reason X and X is no longer a part of rpg'ing you have no reason to partake in it... or in other words if I don't eat pizza without meat and you only order pizza with cheese... yeah you are purposefully excluding me. 2. It's not insulting so please calm the hyperbole...
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 07:48 PM
    Yes and vice versa... those who find a game with the bare minimum devoted to it's narrative not interesting or not fun will not participate iun the hobby so claiming it's unnecessary or something that can be discarded excludes those whose enjoyment comes from it. In other words it's all preferences and playstyles and while it's cool to state what your particular ones are trying to extrapolate...
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 06:45 PM
    Whose shaming anyone about anything? Why even frame the discussion like that? EDIT: Let me put it this way... there is a point where wilted, browning spinach, week old meat and stale rolls can't be overcome by good cooking and are going to make it so I don't eat a meal because it's unappealing (especially if there's an alternative with quality ingredients)... If I'm starving and have no other...
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 05:45 PM
    How would attention to developing and using good or even exceptional wordcraft in a game be exclusionary?? No one said perfection has to be achieved, it's a scale, but totally disregarding it (in other words claiming even when performed at it's lowest bar or disregarded in full doesn't affect the game) is another matter all together that I just don't agree with.
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 04:45 PM
    So again we are discussing a subset of players... we are excluding those "some people". I also disagree that just because someone is sitting down to play your TTRPG campaign (which in and of itself implies more than one session) that they have already "bought the product" they are free to quit 2 mins into the session if it's not interesting to them. My whole point is your last...
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 04:33 PM
    It's driving the choices which are in turn driving gameplay. As an example... an evocative description vs a bland (conversational) description can very much influence which of two sites said players want to explore in something like a West Marches game... how is this not just as important as the content? It's why billions are spent on researching and crafting the right advertising for a product...
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 04:27 PM
    Not if that narrated wordcraft of the fiction is their first/only exposure to and main basis for the choices being made.
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 03:56 PM
    Those are spellcasters in 5e.... :confused:
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 02:34 PM
    I think there are quite a few presumptions outside of assuming relevant context that are problematic in pemerton's argument. One that immediately springs to mind is the presumption that players will be more invested when the context is something they have a hand in. This assumes the players will be more invested in character connections vs discovery or exploration of the unknown...and for some...
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    Tuesday, 4th June, 2019, 03:18 AM
    Or maybe he was trying to actually save the edition but the writing was already on the wall...
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    Friday, 31st May, 2019, 04:51 PM
    Nah...we really wouldn't.
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    Wednesday, 29th May, 2019, 02:36 PM
    Cant this be claimed for almost anything .. case in point... I dont think character relevant/specific content (mainly the type pemerton puts forth earlier in the thread) is necessary for the rpg medium (andmight run counter to certain styles of GMing and play, such as beer & pretzels or games where exploration of the world is the focus). Edit: in other words rpg's are so varied, playstyles are...
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    Saturday, 25th May, 2019, 05:44 PM
    Yeah got to agree here... it's the same objection that was being made when non-literary was being equated to dull and boring.
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    Friday, 24th May, 2019, 05:36 PM
    Emphasis mine... a few points... 1. You can't state that it's a thing everyone defines for themselves and then turn around and define it. That's one of the issues with this thread everyone has their own definition but then the OP is trying to use that preference to define what is core to roleplaying instead of just stating what we prefer. 2. Situation in turn is just as broad. Does it...
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    Friday, 24th May, 2019, 03:57 PM
    Then he really shouldn't have proclaimed it as not core... I think that ill choice of wording is to blame for alot of the back and forth. You make a statement like that and you're not stating preference, you are trying to define.
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    Friday, 24th May, 2019, 03:55 PM
    so where is the line? At what point do you cross from regular description/presentation/performance into whatever it is pemerton is talking about?
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    Friday, 24th May, 2019, 03:26 PM
    No the question was pretty much on track for the thread but I respect your desire not to answer it.
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    Thursday, 23rd May, 2019, 06:18 PM
    Uhm...ok.
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    Thursday, 23rd May, 2019, 05:51 PM
    Do you think using at least some of these techniques is core to running a game?
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    Thursday, 23rd May, 2019, 03:00 PM
    These comparisons also gave rise to things like aspects in FATE, Rising Drama difficulty in Heroquest, mechanics such as insight in D&D or fate points in SotDL which are devices/mechanics for simulating the cadence or flow of these other media in rpg's.
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    Thursday, 23rd May, 2019, 03:50 AM
    For you...maybe, I've yet to be convinced, but for some/many/most the other things you mention aren't attainable or fun without a certain quality to the literary aspects and descriptions, the presentation and performance...
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    Wednesday, 22nd May, 2019, 09:42 PM
    Well all I can say is being aware of the fact that, irregardless of right or wrong, people are judged by how they speak and also being a black man who works in corporate America... I have to continuously be conscious of how I converse with others for the majority of my day on a regular basis... I can't afford to not care, different experiences and all that I guess. Note I agree with your...
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    Wednesday, 22nd May, 2019, 09:23 PM
    People are judged on numerous things... why would how they speak be an exception? Do you really think how you converse isn't judged by people?
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    Wednesday, 22nd May, 2019, 07:39 PM
    This makes no sense. I would think improvement of the narrative, generation of content and nearly everything else we've discussed is ultimately done first and foremost for the purpose of running the game. I mean I'm not creating content for the purpose of just having good content, I'm generating it to better my game.
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    Wednesday, 22nd May, 2019, 06:59 PM
    To a certain extent I would say yes. I certainly don't add all kinds of words to my description of a situation without any regard for its formal quality, especially when speaking to colleagues at work, explaining something to others and so on. Very rarely am I wholly unaware of the formal quality of my everyday speech as I know many people are apt to judge you by it.
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    Wednesday, 22nd May, 2019, 06:07 PM
    Who does this??
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    Wednesday, 22nd May, 2019, 12:53 PM
    I find that interesting since I would say speaking in character is performance/presentation vs. having a natural conversation... wouldn't you? Or do you see it differently? Also wanted to address the it's not core statements you keep making... perhaps the individual specific examples being presented aren't core... but the fact that at least one is used in most people's game seems to me to...
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    Wednesday, 22nd May, 2019, 12:37 PM
    I'm curious... would you have an issue with a GM who speaks in the first person when stating what an NPC says? What if he does or does not use a different voice for said NPC... does that make a difference? EDIT: Or do you only run and play in games that stay in the 3rd person?
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    Tuesday, 21st May, 2019, 02:30 PM
    Yeah I try to avoid specific examples like this, unless absolutely necessary, because sometimes they can set expectations in players that it is like the creature in ways it may not be... even if the GM only says it looks like the creature.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Tuesday, 21st May, 2019, 01:55 PM
    Lol... I noticed this as well.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Tuesday, 21st May, 2019, 01:55 PM
    I and my players would definitely prefer 2 it's succinct enough that it isn't going to drag but conveys enough info to evoke an accurate enough mental image and conveys a sense that this creature has a wrongness about it and is dangerous. EDIT: It also illustrates that long prose or excessive word count is not necessary for quality.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Tuesday, 21st May, 2019, 01:19 PM
    Emphasis mine... I am confused by this answer. You choose option one because it provides a commonly known and more clear image but then go on to state that you aren't concerned with correctly depicting the monster and that you have no problem with the players imagining the same thing differently in your game... Which one in actual play do you subscribe to? EDIT: I also note you said you have...
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Tuesday, 21st May, 2019, 04:37 AM
    Or, which was my point, there are numerous reasons (including how it was presented) why it could happen outside of lack of clarity... EDIT: It's not interesting because I don't find it interesting doesn't really speak to why one doesn't find it interesting.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Tuesday, 21st May, 2019, 04:21 AM
    Just to be clear...I never asserted or implied this. It can be but like most things there's no absolute, 100% all the time answer.
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  • Imaro's Avatar
    Tuesday, 21st May, 2019, 01:00 AM
    I think you're reading or projecting too much into these replies.
    1462 replies | 37678 view(s)
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Friday, 14th June, 2019

  • 05:26 AM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...nied that anyone had said any such thing - well, as a matter of fact, you HAD said that thing. That sentence, as written, says that content matters, and wording doesn't matter. I'm not asking you to stand by or renounce that sentence as the sum of your thoughts on form and content; I was challenging Ovinomancer's assertion that no one had said anything along those lines.If someone says "All the cheese is gone" before the dinner party, and then the next day you and a friend are debating whether or not anyone has ever thought that there's no cheese left in the world, the person who said "All the cheese is gone" doesn't count as an example of such. It's not that they said as much but didn't mean it. It's that anyone who thinks that's what they said doesn't understand the relevant semantic features of natural language. Hriston literally did not assert that the particular words used by a speaker never matter to the effectiveness of communication. Which is the assertion that you and Imaro appear to be imputing to him. (And if that's not what you're imputing, then why is he turning up at the end of your "gotcha" stick?) when Ovinomancer denied that anyone had said any such thing - well, as a matter of fact, you HAD said that thing. Again, this is just false. Hriston wrote some words which, if misinterpreted, are capable of bearing the meaning that you and Imaro attribute to them. But that doesn't mean that Hriston said the thing that you are misinterpreting him as having said. That's what makes your interpretation a misinterpretation. Ovinomancer even pointed this out, after Hriston pointed it out, and yet you persist in attributing your misinterpretation. Why? What's the point? What do you think it's adding to the thread?
  • 05:21 AM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I did not miss that. Hriston said what he said, in the words he used. You can stand by your assertion that no one has said any such thing; you can walk it back; or you can deflect, dodge, distract and dissemble.Seriously? Let's put to one side the fact that, contra Imaro, Hriston's post was in reply to Hussar, not to him. Here is the exchange between Hussar and Hriston: If the literary is unimportant, then why do DMGíd include dungeon dressing sections, most of which has little to no mechanical impact? Because color (dungeon dressing) is content that provides atmosphere when imagined by the participants at the table. The quality of form with which itís expressed isnít whatís important but rather whether the odors, noises, furnishings, and items found in an area suggest a torture chamber, a harem, or a wizardís laboratory. In other words, itís the actual content that matters, not the particular words that are used and the way they are said.Hriston is refuting an express claim that "dungeon dressing" is a literary matter simply because it's non-mechanical, and also an apparent implication that the role and significance of dungeon dressing is a matter of evocative words used rather than content conveyed. Is anyone seriously suggesting, on the bas...

Sunday, 9th June, 2019

  • 02:25 PM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...Popper has a (controversial) theory of what makes a claim, or perhaps a collection of claims, scientific. I'm not making a scientific claim. I'm making an aesthetic claim. So Popperian falsifiability has nothing to do with it. My claim is about the point of RPGing, what makes it a distinctive and worthwhile creative endeavour. Not far upthread Aldarc has given a pretty good account of my claim, so I'll add a few glosses to that. I am saying that entertainment in virtue of quality narration and performance is not what makes RPGing a distinctive and worthwhile creative endeavour. Rather, it's situation and resulting inhabitation and protagonism. I've said why I think this: because quality narration and performance are the weakest elements of the typical RPG experience (given the ready availability to most RPGers of genuinely quality narrations and performances), whereas protagonism in the context of engaging situation is the distinct thing that RPGs offer. When Hussar and Imaro say that they would quit games with ordinary-language descriptions because they'd find them too boring, my thought in response is that those games must have weak situations, or GMs who don't facilitiate protagonism. After all, both experience and reading lead me to think there's plenty of that going around. To elaborate on that last point: Hussar has tended to equate situation with content referring eg to boring content. But as I've indicated in and since the OP, good situation isn't about non-boring content. It's about the call to action, the invitation to protagonism. As far as I can tell those sorts of notions play little or no role in Hussar's conception of RPGing - if they do, he hasn't said anything about them in this thread as best I can recall. Lanefan, too, has quite recently posted that a GM should use language to make situation "more interesting", and has said that "situation is always going to be there no matter what". But this second claim isn't true if by situati...
  • 05:41 AM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    But Iím beginning to see why weíre all having a hard time coming to a consensus....itís because we actually seem to have one, itís just that what I see as pretty basic communication, youíre viewing as carefully wrought wordplay.I don't agree that there's a consensus: I can't really tell what Maxperson thinks, but Imaro and Hussar have made claims about the need for entertaining/evocative narration that I think clearly contradict the position I asserted in the OP. But one complicating fact pertains to vocabularly: eg I wouldn't regard cadaverous as a word to describe a Githyanki as especially remarkable or a-conversational, but Hussar probably would, and maybe Bedrockgames also. What counts as every day vocabularly among a group of RPGers is pretty highly variable and contingent on a range of factors (social background/status, educational levels, occupation, etc). I'm a humanities/social sciene academic (philosophy and law) and many of the people I talk to on a regular basis (ie the people I work with, my students, etc) are lilkewise, or are aspiring to be. So I think my every day vocaublary is probably richer than the New York Times. This is why I have brought it back to what are we aiming for? What counts as success, as good RPGing? What should a GM focus on? And I'm saying situation - fram...

Friday, 7th June, 2019

  • 02:07 PM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ... eg TS Eliot as a famous example.) But those are hardly typical teaching texts, and my guess is that the number of ESL classes that use this sort of literary criticism to try and teach English is pretty small. lacking any literary effort on the part of the DM, all these things are are bags of game stats. There's nothing distinguishing them. Or, to put it another way, what's the difference between a 5 hp orc and a 5 hp goblin?If I'm using the AD&D MM, one is brown and one is yellow. If I'm using DDG, one worships Gruumsh and one worships Maglubiyet. A person can describe and explain things without aiming at literary beauty. despite REPEATED requests that you clarify what "literary", "literary quality" and "wordcraft" and various other words you've tried to toss into the mix, you've never actually sat down and defined what you mean by these terms in a way that folks in the thread understand what you're on about. Clearly plenty of folks do - everyone but you, Maxperson and Imaro as far as I can tell. And frankly even Imaro seems to understand the point, despite protesting that it's unclear. He just disagrees with it - that is, he thinks that RPGing is a literary endeavour, and would find a game boring in which the GM didn't aim at literary quality in his/her narration. It seems worth mentioning at this point that not all disagreement is a result of unclear usage or uncertainty over definitions. Aesthetic debates aren't much like mathematics, in that respect at least. Anyway, to aim at literary quality is to try and produce pleasing, beautiful, evocative writing. Most poets do this. Most novelists do this. Fewer instructional writers do this - I've read recipe books that seem to aspire to literary quality, but never stereo or furniture assembly instructions. I've read a lot of academic papers over the years - these tend to aim at clarity, but many clearly do not aim at literary quality. Statutes, regulations, contracts and other legal instruments - of whi...

Thursday, 6th June, 2019

  • 01:36 PM - Sadras mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I think that you underestimate, if not vastly exaggerate, the problem of communicating the basic ideas of the game. And we usually have a basic awareness of some cognitive contexts that our gaming group will likely have experienced. I could perhaps agree with you that there is some exaggeration from the other side, but I also feel you vastly reduce the importance of the language used within RPGs. @Hussar touched on this upthread, but I feel it requires to be reiterated - we have literally volumes of D&D supplements, magazines, books and fan-created material on settings, monsters, characters and the like. All that literal endeavour is not just to communicate the context and stakes in which their actions take place. Fluff is important for many gamers. I also agree with @Imaro in that if the DM is using conversational language to the point you seem to indicate in these posts (which I'm pretty sure you do not), I would quickly excuse myself from that table. As an aside, I have even used/stolen lines from fantasy novels, whether it be cool dialogue or an evocative description of something/someone, for my RP games. Words matter. I keep my 2e-4e MM not just for the mechanics, but also for the fluff. EDIT: Evocative words help fuel the players' imagination / immersive experience.

Wednesday, 29th May, 2019

  • 08:58 PM - hawkeyefan mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Once you have the very basics, every things else is optional. I hate to snip so much of your interesting post....but I think I agree with most of it, and it can be boiled down to this bit above. What are the basics? Are there any that would apply to all of the myriad games you cited? Or most? Most is probably the best that can be hoped for. I think this is what Imaro and Aldarc have touched on. You had mentioned imagination, and I'd agree. I added buy in or willingness. What else can we list as core to the RPG experience?
  • 03:49 PM - Aldarc mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Cant this be claimed for almost anything .. case in point... I dont think character relevant/specific content (mainly the type pemerton puts forth earlier in the thread) is necessary for the rpg medium (andmight run counter to certain styles of GMing and play, such as beer & pretzels or games where exploration of the world is the focus). Edit: in other words rpg's are so varied, playstyles are so varied and DM styles are so varied is there anything specific that can be applied to all??I'm not sure if I could answer, but your question, Imaro, is definitely a question worth asking. But we can also find tremendous diversity in video games, film/television, and other media as well. Presumably it's the experience of participatory roleplay conjoined with mechanical processes to create shared fiction that binds everything together. Everything else are probably bells and whistles. What are your thoughts?

Tuesday, 28th May, 2019

  • 05:43 AM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    So let's focus on what the actual lines of dispute are, rather than fight endlessly over the definition of literary.Yeah, I didn't expect this thread to be a debate about the meaning and scope of the term "literary". I thought it might be a discussion about whether or not wordcraft is a principal or essential means of evoking emotional responses in a RPG. The point of my OP is to deny such a claim. On the other hand, I believe that Hussar affirms such a claim, as does Imaro. I'm frankly not sure what Maxperson thinks about it. Everyone agrees with you @pemerton.This isn't true at all. Unless you've changed your mind, upthread you asserted that the use of wordcraft and associated performance is a key means of promoting emotional responses in RPGing. Which is what I am disagreeing with. ************************ On the issue of "playstyle arguments/agendas", which has been flagged by Bedrockgames and darkbard: I think (and hope) it's obvious that my OP is putting forward a view about where the aesthetic merit and aeshetic power of RPGIng lies, and therefore a view about what the point of RPGing ultimately is. I recognise that others will disagree. That's not uncommon in critical discussions. I'm not 100% sure that I agree with Eagleton that these "deep structures" of aesthetic evaluation correlate to, or express, social power relations and any resultant ideologies. That's a further, and harder, question. But as I posted upthread in reply to A...

Tuesday, 21st May, 2019

  • 04:02 AM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    tell us about how you see RPGs working. For instance, what do you see as the role of situation in RPGing. Why do you think the narratie crat with which a situation is presented is so important?What is it that you think we've been doing this whole time? It's not engaging in playstyle wars or pushing a playstyle agenda.To elaborate on my question, then: upthread Imaro seemed to assert, or at least very strongly imply, that whether or not a situation is interesting is a player-independent state of affairs. Do you agree? What do you think the GM should have regard to in coming up with situations? Lanefan, in other threads over many years, has posted that the GM should always author scenarios without regard to which players and/or PCs will engage with them. Do you agree? Upthread Hussar has complained about players who just want the GM to "roll up the plot wagon". What do you think the players have a duty to bring to the table? For instance, do you think the players have a duty to be enthusiastic about the situation the GM presents? Not at all far upthread Bedrockgame posited a contrast between GM as storyteller/entertainer and GM as facilitator/adjudicator. Do you think this is a useful contrast? If so, which side of it do you favour? If not, why not? Upthread - both a long way upthread, and in my past few posts - I've made some comments a...
  • 03:14 AM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ... I already posted why crafted narration and conveying a situation that draws in the players might come into conflict. The first benefits from preparation (and the resulting opportunity to test, edit, etc). Whereas the second - like conversation, which has been my reiterated comparitor - benefits from spontaneous engagement within the back-and-forth at the table. EDIT: The description isn't what makes a situation in an RPG interesting: the situation is what makes interesting because it is interacting and part of a back and forth conversation. I honestly don't care if the GM is stumbling over words, uses the same adjective twice in a row for no reason, uses a ten dollar word that somewhat misses the mark, when a more precise 1 dollar word would do....those are all things I care about when I am reading quality books. When I am playing a game I am engaged with another human being and through them, a situation as my character.This is as good an account of the OP claim as any other. Imaro, Maxperson - you may disagree that what Bedrockgames describes here, and what I describe in the OP, is a good account of RPGing. That's fine and (it goes without saying) your prerogative. But I don't see why the discussion about this raises any issues about the meaning of words. I don't see how it helps the discussio by trying to argue that I, or Bedrockgames, is engaged in self-contradiction. Instead: tell us about how you see RPGs working. For instance, what do you see as the role of situation in RPGing. Why do you think the narratie crat with which a situation is presented is so important?

Sunday, 19th May, 2019

  • 05:45 AM - Hussar mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Honestly, I think two things are very true in this thread. 1. People have equated literary and performance with "flowery language". That is not what's meant and has never been meant. Literary or performance simply means HOW the material is presented in the game, either in written form or in oral during a session. Literary carries additional connotations of utilizing various literary devices. Did you use pathetic fallacy during the session? Did you use foreshadowing? Did you engage various tropes of the genre? Then you are using literary devices. 2. Essentially this argument is as old as gaming. Which is more important, fluff or crunch? Some folks think that crunch (@Pemerton refers to task resolution) as all important and fluff (or flavor, or performance, or whatever you want to call it), while perhaps interesting, is largely unimportant. Others, like myself and I believe Imaro, think that flavor and crunch are both equally important and equally needed in an RPG. That an RPG without flavor is, well, pretty much that randomly generated adventure dungeon I posted a couple of pages ago.

Friday, 17th May, 2019

  • 11:47 AM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    So, in your mind, an RPG is akin to technical writing? No emotion whatsoever. Not at all. Imaro is the person who introduced clarity as a desideratum. My point was that clarity is not really connected to literary quality, and pointed to instructions as an example. If you agree that instructions don't typically display literary quality, then I think you should agree that - to the extent that clarity matters in RPGing - then that doesn't really bear on the issues raised in the OP. The comparisons that I have made to the sort of communication that takes place in RPGing are other forms of more-or-less intimate communications where artifice and literary quality are not pre-eminent concerns, such as conversation and letters. These don't evoke emotions because of their literary qualities. They invoke emotions because they pertain to things the interlocutor cares about. In conversations and letters, the caring is about actual things that matter to the interlocutor. In RPGing, the caring is the result of the player wanting to play his/her PC - because that's the point of the game - ...

Friday, 10th May, 2019

  • 12:13 AM - Hussar mentioned Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I honestly am not sure what you are saying Just to add to what Imaro said, and hopefully clarify the point of this thread. At least, to the point to which I understand it anyway (which, given previous history, might not be understanding what's going on at all... :p) From what I understand, we are positing that there are two main elements of an RPG - what I've termed content and what I've termed performance. I define content, in the context of this thread, to mean all the stuff that goes into playing an RPG. Laying out a scenario, building a scene with the players and the DM creating a back and forth conversation which resolves the scenario, rolling dice, that sort of thing. All the stuff that's, more or less, specifically called out by the rules of whatever RPG you're playing. IOW, content=stuff that you need to play the game. You cannot play an RPG without content, well, unless your RPG is akin to Godot: The Waitening. :D Performance, on the other hand, isn't really defined by the rules of an RPG. It might be referenced, but, it's gene...

Sunday, 10th February, 2019

  • 11:34 PM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Introducing Complications Without Forcing Players to Play the "Mother May I?" Game
    Imaro - you seem obsessed by 1% chances. I posted guidelines and rules from mulitple systems upthread (Prince Valiant, Classic Traveller, 4e D&D, and maybe BW as well but I can't remember that one exactly), and talked about the odds that they establish, and I even made the point that Admin in Classic Traveller, with its base 1 in 6 chance for untrained and 5 in 6 chance for trained is probably sailing pretty close to meaningful limits here. when you give the DM the ability to determine DC's using his own judgement (which both 4e and Traveler do, not sure about BW) you are in fact, for all intents and purposes, giving him the power to decide unilaterally whether something is possible or notYou seem to be assuming here that the GM will ignore the rules for setting difficulties, and/or will apply them in arbitrary ways that depart from the system rules and guidelines. I don't think it's in dispute that a GM who ignores the system principles may produce a bad play experience - or, in othe...
  • 04:10 PM - darkbard mentioned Imaro in post Introducing Complications Without Forcing Players to Play the "Mother May I?" Game
    You keep failing to engage the question of degrees. [...] Note: We are not speaking to how you in particular run a game...we are speaking to what the rules of said game allow. You keep making this point about 4e but if I assume as has been argued by many of it's proponents that we use the challenge to set DC's and the DM has unilateral control over what challenges are presented to the players... how do the mechanics of 4e not allow for the situation posted above (mainly an impossible DC or a DC so trivially easy you can;t help but pass)? Imaro, you claim this, but pemerton has engaged this directly upthread: From the 4e Rules Compendium (pp 126-27): The following definitions help the Dungeon Master determine which of the three DCs is appropriate for a particular check. The goal is to pick a DC that is an appropriate challenge for a particular scenario or encounter. Easy: An easy DC is a reasonable challenge for creatures that do not have training in a particular skill. Such creatures have about a 65 percent chance of meeting an easy DC of their level. An easy DC is a minimal challenge for a creature that has training in the skill, and it is almost a guaranteed success for one that also has a high bonus with the skill. In group checks (page 128) or when every adventurer in a party is expected to attempt a given skill check, particularly when no one necessarily has training, an easy DC is the standard choice for the scenario. Moderate: A moderate DC is a reasonable challenge for creatures that have training in ...

Saturday, 9th February, 2019

  • 04:56 PM - Manbearcat mentioned Imaro in post Introducing Complications Without Forcing Players to Play the "Mother May I?" Game
    Imaro and Sadras Reread my last paragraph. Youíve completely inverted what I said. I basically said ďthe table dynamic of skilled play works UNLESS the GM screws up and plays asversarially. There is no assumption about adversarial play. Itís the opposite. Regarding MMI. Itís a concept that attempts to communicate by making a comparison of the dynamics of content introduction being mediated through an authority. It has nothing to say about the social engineering relationship inherent to parents/overseers and their charges/children. So I donít see where I need to ďcall anyone out.Ē

Friday, 8th February, 2019

  • 01:29 AM - pemerton mentioned Imaro in post Introducing Complications Without Forcing Players to Play the "Mother May I?" Game
    ...with my hand for the return of my shard - and you have unilaterally decided the outcome of that action based on your conception of what is reasonable for a giant. You haven't spelled out all your reasoning (and obviously are not obliged to) - for instance, upthread I noted the possible relevance of alignment to the situation, and (I think) you XPed that post, but you haven't actually indicated whether your decision-making as GM was affected by a view that a CE being will never respond to imploring looks. To me, a key feature of your example of play is that your conception of what is reasonable for the giant differs from that of the player - unless there is something else going on that you haven't mentioned (like the player saying something or making a face or whatever that indicated that s/he thought the action declaration was a try-on), the player clearly thought that it might be reasonable for the giant to respond to the request. This feeds directly into the claim from you and Imaro that there is no difference, to RPG play, between the GM unilaterally deciding an outcome and the GM calling for a check. That claim is, in my view, rebutted by the following point made by Vincent Baker: Roleplaying is negotiated imagination. In order for any thing to be true in game, all the participants in the game (players and GMs, if you've even got such things) have to understand and assent to it. When you're roleplaying, what you're doing is a) suggesting things that might be true in the game and then b) negotiating with the other participants to determine whether they're actually true or not. . . . Mechanics . . . exist to ease and constrain real-world social negotiation between the players at the table. That's their sole and crucial function. We can elaborate a bit: we have to assume that the action declaration and hence "negotiation" is sincere and made in good faith (something I already alluded to above, when I said I'm assuming that the player has not conceded that...

Thursday, 20th December, 2018

  • 08:37 AM - Hussar mentioned Imaro in post Cantrip Auto-Scaling - A 5e Critique
    But if this is what you want, well... shouldn't you just choose paladin instead of cleric? Well, considering the "holy warrior" thing has been part and parcel to clerics since day 1, I'm rather shocked Imaro that you would go this route. I thought you were all about maintaining traditions. But, for me, if the cleric is using magic as the primary source of combat damage, then, well, that character is just a themed wizard. What's the difference? Clerics have always been a close second to fighters in combat. Now, they're a wizard in armor with a bit more hit points. /snip Iíd also be perfectly happy to see Clerics get the ability at level 5 to add 1d8 radiant damage to a weapon attack, once per turn. Upgrade to 2d8 at 11, and 3d8 at 17. Let the cleric smack things, but not like a fighter. That would be my favorite solution as well. Nicely flavorful. Makes actually having weapons and armor work for the character instead of against it. I imagine if the rogue hits things differently enough from the fighter, youíd be fine with that? But also, speaking of which, how is the rogue more different from fighters than Druids and clerics are from wizards? They literall...

Thursday, 22nd November, 2018

  • 08:01 AM - Hussar mentioned Imaro in post Mike Mearls on how 4E could have looked
    The bigger issue here, and the reason I think that posters like Imaro and BryonD come to such different conclusions when talking about 4e is that there are two very fundamentally different approaches to how to look at mechanics. The reason that, say (and I'm just using you as an example here, not intended at all as any sort of attack on you) BryonD comes to such different conclusions about Page 42 is that he is looking at the rules as discrete elements in the game. Which is fine when talking about 3e and AD&D. The rules were meant as discrete elements. Healing was largely divorced from anything else - you either healed naturally in down time or you healed magically. 3e had some in combat healing, true, but, again, that was 100% magical. Healing is a discrete element. But, 4e doesn't work that way. 4e is very much holistic. You can't just look at Page 42 and come to conclusions. You also have to look at the entire game and then come to conclusions, which is why posters like pemerton and others have such different reactions. They don't see P...


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Friday, 14th June, 2019

  • 11:54 AM - Ovinomancer quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Hey, if you have questions about anyone's assertions about who is or isn't a jerk, then please take them up with Ovinomancer, not with me. That's his topic, not mine. If you want to defend the rigorous factual accuracy of Ovinomancer's assertion "Literally no one in this thread has said otherwise", then good luck with that. I doubt that you'll earn his gratitude; but I've been wrong before. In your unseemly haste to get your digital boot in, you seem to have forgotten the context of my remark. Here it is: Sooo... Are you agreeing that how content is presented can determine whether people wish to engage with it? Your saying Hriston's actually said that how content is presented cannot affect if people wish to engage with that content. It's the only way that you can keep this e-peen wagging contest going. Well, okay, then. Yours is the biggest. Really. None larger.
  • 05:21 AM - pemerton quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I did not miss that. Hriston said what he said, in the words he used. You can stand by your assertion that no one has said any such thing; you can walk it back; or you can deflect, dodge, distract and dissemble.Seriously? Let's put to one side the fact that, contra Imaro, Hriston's post was in reply to Hussar, not to him. Here is the exchange between Hussar and Hriston: If the literary is unimportant, then why do DMGíd include dungeon dressing sections, most of which has little to no mechanical impact? Because color (dungeon dressing) is content that provides atmosphere when imagined by the participants at the table. The quality of form with which itís expressed isnít whatís important but rather whether the odors, noises, furnishings, and items found in an area suggest a torture chamber, a harem, or a wizardís laboratory. In other words, itís the actual content that matters, not the particular words that are used and the way they are said.Hriston is refuting an express claim that "dungeon dressing" is a literary matter simply because it's non-mechanical, and also an apparent implication that the role and significance of dungeon dressing is a matter of evocative words used rather than content conveyed. Is anyone seriously suggesting, on the bas...

Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 04:09 PM - Bedrockgames quoted Imaro in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    Initial thoughts... I tend to lean towards liking the prose approach as a GM, whether that's boxed text in a pre-made adventure or prose that I have written up/improv 'd myself. It allows me a chance to create atmosphere while also allowing (when pre-written) the chance to make sure I haven't missed anything important. As a player for me it's just more evocative and immersive than the conversational narration, and draws me in more to the imaginary world the group is a part of. That said I want to make it clear that good prose doesn't have to be lengthy or overly descriptive, good prose IMO uses just enough word count to set the mood, evoke emotions and relay necessary information and err'ing on the side of shorter is probably better. I have played in conversationally narrated games and it tends to create a sense of being a further step removed from my character, not sure why. I also noticed that it tends to increase side conversations, jokes, etc that can at times shatter or break t...
  • 03:45 PM - Bedrockgames quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Well if you start a thread around that premise I'd be more than happy to discuss since I think there's too much baggage in this thread to have any type of meaningful discussion and alot of posters have already bailed on it. Fair enough, just started a thread.
  • 03:44 PM - Aldarc quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    No it wasn't... I think you missed the point.And my point was not about how basketball was being played in different arenas. ;)
  • 03:34 PM - Ovinomancer quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    No it wasn't... I think you missed the point.Get yer own shtick.
  • 03:05 PM - Aldarc quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    @Aldarc 's post above yours is definitely about which is more important... And contrary to what you've been saying it's been framed like that by quite a few posters in this thread. EDIT: Emphasis mine... IMO this would have been a much more interesting discussion topicThat's probably because the entire basketball analogy was originally framed in terms of greater importance. ;)
  • 02:59 PM - Bedrockgames quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    @Aldarc 's post above yours is definitely about which is more important... And contrary to what you've been saying it's been framed like that by quite a few posters in this thread. EDIT: Emphasis mine... IMO this would have been a much more interesting discussion topic Yes, we've been getting sucked into that debate on the thread. We've also been sucked into debates over the meaning of words. I am not denying that. But I think the central conflict is fundamentally over what kinds of descriptions we enjoy from the Gamemaster, and was more at the heart of the conversation. At the very least I think it is a more productive conversation to have. I've entertained some of the definitional arguments and some of the broad principle arguments, but I don't really think there is much to be gained by having them.
  • 02:40 PM - Aldarc quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Yep and that's why no meaningful discussion is taking place between the two main sides of this argument. You see it as totally superfluous to the game while I and others see it as an integral part of the whole... of course if every time we bring up an example it gets put in the..that's not what we are talking about bin... but when a definite line is asked for it's brushed off as not really required (because of course the people who see it as superfluous all agree on where the line is...the superfluous stuff of course!!.... it's easy to see how such disparate views arise and understanding is minimal.Not so much superfluous as much as less fundamental to the basics. You will naturally develop a style, but the basics of ball-handling, shooting, and play-making are important fundamentals of the game that propel it forward. Many great players of the game typically have both, but we generally expect one over the other. Those who are style without substance are typically overrated players with no...
  • 02:34 PM - Aldarc quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    The analogy was with the game of basketball, not with how it's played in specific arenas...NBA & Globetrotter exhibitions (which aren't even an example of basketball being played). Unless we are now only talking about RPG's played for presentation to an audience...I know, and what I said applies to that.
  • 02:07 PM - Aldarc quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    This pretty much sums up my stance since this thread began. It's like asking what's more important in playing basketball, being able to dribble or being able to shoot... Both are, even though you could technically play a good game without doing one or the other and/or putting emphasis on one over the other.My take on this thread debate using basketball: What's more important in playing basketball, being able to dribble, shoot, and set up plays or developing a theatrical style to your gameplay.
  • 05:50 AM - Riley37 quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I don't know about @pemertonís post, but that post of mine you quoted was not made in reply to you or anything you said. I made it in response to @Hussarís post which directly preceded mine and which asked why dungeon dressing appears in most editions of the DMG. I was speaking to the genesis of the tangent... but not sure how this changes what you said. Alright, Ovinomancer, please issue a ruling: Should I evaluate Hriston's assertion only according to its literal content? Or does context change the value of its content? Is it true... from a certain point of view? That is, the point of view, which equates Hriston with nobody? Archaic allusion time: Q: Who did Polyphemos hate, even more than Odysseus? A: Nobody!
  • 05:31 AM - Hriston quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I was speaking to the genesis of the tangent... but not sure how this changes what you said. What I said was in the context of Hussarís question about dungeon dressing, which relates directly back to the OP by equating dungeon dressing with ďthe literaryĒ, not the context of your tangent, which really does seem to miss the point because no one is saying the players are going to be interested in elements of dungeon dressing no matter how poorly theyíre described.
  • 03:55 AM - hawkeyefan quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    My advice to someone who wants to be a great DM would be to focus on both (as well as other things not brought up in this thread), get better at both and practice both because they are intertwined and complement each other. That said play to your strengths and shamelessly steal (content or presentation) to make up for what you are weakest in. I think stressing one as core or higher than the other only serves to exclude or downplay one skill vs another... one playstyle vs. another... etc. which ultimately I don't see the purpose of except maybe to make certain people feel their way of playing is superior?? Saying theyíre both important is fine. Saying one is more important than the other....whichever one you may believe to be....is also fine. Is it about being superior? I donít think in the way you mean. Itís not ďmy game is superior to yours because I focus on the fictional situations more than the presentationĒ but rather ďFor me, games that focus on fictional situation more than pres...
  • 03:12 AM - Ovinomancer quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine. Yep. I still think you've missed the point.
  • 02:48 AM - Hriston quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Really?? Because I literally brought up this idea that how content was presented could in fact determine whether a group would be interested in the content earlier in the thread (and one of the reasons I thought of it as core to the game) and these were the replies... Emphasis mine. I don't know about @pemertonís post, but that post of mine you quoted was not made in reply to you or anything you said. I made it in response to @Hussarís post which directly preceded mine and which asked why dungeon dressing appears in most editions of the DMG.
  • 01:39 AM - Ovinomancer quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Sooo... Are you agreeing that how content is presented can determine whether people wish to engage with it?Sure. Literally no one in this thread has said otherwise. I'm starting to think you've maybe missed the point.
  • 01:00 AM - Ovinomancer quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I guess it's not just whether content is good or not... I guess the desire to engage with it or not can actually depend on how it's presented... Who woulda thunk it... :erm:Don't think anyone's disputed that being a jerk has an effect... :erm:

Tuesday, 11th June, 2019

  • 03:18 AM - pemerton quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I use the words I need to describe the situation. These will depend on mood, whim, what has previously been said, what seems to matter in the current situation, etc, as well as (obviously) upon what I want to describe. That is to say, the words I use will depend on all the normal determinants of spontaneous human communication.I don't feel like this is right... in conversation we rarely are consciously choosing our words it's more a stream of conscious effort (which is why people often put their foot in their mouth or have to correct/explain what they actually meant)... while in this situation you are consciously selecting certain words to emphasize a mood, theme, etc.In conversation I choose words depending on what I want to say - for instance, if I want to describe a building, I might choose what other building or structure to compare it to. If I want to describe how a person behaved or seemed to feel, I might say they seemed upset and then clarify that to mean (say) angry, not sad. I d...

Monday, 10th June, 2019

  • 07:48 PM - hawkeyefan quoted Imaro in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Is this a question of length or of literary quality? Either...or both! I think that generally speaking the expectation is that the GM will provide the bulk of narration, and so most of the advocacy voiced in the thread so far has talked about immersion. Does player narration add or detract from immersion? Is it highly game dependent? Is it a balance between quality and length? For me, as a player, I want the game to keep moving, so I generally want other players to finish their turn quickly. I don't mind a bit of debate about what they should do, and I don't mind if they throw in a bit of narration or dialogue, but I expect it to be reasonable.


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