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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 05:35 PM
    I think people do not always get how over all structure contributes It kind of relates to 5e designers take on healing surges mentioned earlier.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 04:27 PM
    I am currently not happy with the options I have found so far. I might be missing something
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 04:06 PM
    These two accounts of 5e seem pretty congruent with one another. They remind me of a certain, fairly common, sort of approach to 2nd ed AD&D. I've also edited a post about half-a-dozen upthread having read these posts. EDIT: and I also just read this, which seems equally congruent with the other two posts:
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 03:56 PM
    I don't understand. Are you saying that sometimes the GM has to ignore successful checks and treat them as failures because otherwise the players will win the game unfairly or too easily? That's a strange assertion, if it's the one you're making. I also don't understand what "combats that are unavoidable" has to do with anything. That's just more checks. If the player's dice are "hot" (as you...
    713 replies | 19927 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 03:55 PM
    Insert DM in the equation who doesn't have that 4e as a resource and you have a need for the obvious part of a tactical module. The thing is character abilities need to interact interestingly with monster abilities the ability to easily stand up from being prone is meaningless if nothing prones you. I do not see this stuff as operating in isolation.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 03:41 PM
    An action declaration is a proposal that the fiction should include a certain content. For instance, I climb the wall is a proposal as to the content of the shared fiction, namely, that it includes the PC climbing the wall. I don't know what playing their character means here other than some improv acting. If the GM is deciding everything that happens, what else are the players contributing...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 03:38 PM
    I find the accusation that people want it to be exactly the same is ummm insert something not nice. I mean really why not actually try to be better? 4e had some experiments later in the edition where a class could shift battlefield roles for instance swapping out your general fighting specialization dynamically. Not that they were totally locked down any way but explicit fluidity is good too.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 03:27 PM
    That was a 192 page book... sounds pretty extensive.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 03:24 PM
    One of the appeals of the previous edition was it was very easy to DM...
    25 replies | 485 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 03:22 PM
    And some are kind of innadequate like how second wind is very nearly un-used in 4e due to action economy and which is even more tied down in 5e. But it gets a variant?
    25 replies | 485 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 03:17 PM
    You named one right there dude... do you really think you can go and change virtually every monster an easy fix to the game?
    25 replies | 485 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 03:15 PM
    Because increasing the tactical element of play interleaves with every class used and any combat spell and every monster in use. How many bits and pieces do you have to interact with just for one element is what makes it difficult? I already mentioned the bloodied condition I will point out more broadly why that example works. It can give us monsters who have tactically interactive abilities...
    25 replies | 485 view(s)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 02:04 PM
    I see this as somewhat similar to what I posted upthread - that in AD&D there's no systematic way to put your connection to family on the line.
    713 replies | 19927 view(s)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 12:38 PM
    I've highlighted you use of the word things. I think you're using it to refer to certain sorts of events in the fiction. The sorts of things that might be presented on a messageboard in the form of a transcript. In my post I was talking about experiences had by the players, at the table. The transcript - the in-fiction events - is one component of these. But does not exhaust them. To give...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 12:23 PM
    I guess I'm assuming that - or wondering whether - there is more that can be said than just It's my preference. That is, that it's possible to articulate why it's good. Upthread, Lanefan asserted that 4e's hp mechanic is flawed because it doesn't conform to his expectations for a hp mechanic. That's a pretty strong claim - that his way of thinking is better. Presumably there's something that...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 11:40 AM
    Action resolution in Burning Wheel (which can be ported to other systems eg Classic Traveller): * Intent and task action declaration; * Say 'yes' or roll the dice; * Success is success on both intent and task; failure is narrated by the GM by reference to intent and/or task as will keep things moving and maintain or increase the pressure; * Let it ride (ie results stand - no rerolls).
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Today, 11:35 AM
    Dredging up arguments do little good to this thread.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 05:48 AM
    Quite honestly it seems like it would be prohibitively difficult to add on like a patch in the first place so I wasn't really expecting to see it. Just adding in the bloodied condition for its fantasy fighting pacing fun might be extensive let alone a broad tactical boost. 5e design paradigm seems to make it an extensive rewrite not a add on.
    25 replies | 485 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 04:40 AM
    Except they needed doorways and extra rows of pikeman to do anything at all apparently AD&D was my first experience and I didnt see in home games or conventions much different sizes of party than I have seen in 3e and in 4e or 5e.
    108 replies | 2631 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 04:31 AM
    Row of pikeman... LOL you must have been gaming with entirely different people than me.. never saw once in my gaming career a row of pikeman in the party that sounds so heroic like the fighters are incompetent buffoons oh yeah they were. The infamous doorway let's play bugs bunny and pop one out so we always have one not everyone was only doing tunnel fighting nor thought it really needed to...
    108 replies | 2631 view(s)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Today, 03:41 AM
    Here is some rules text from Apocalypse World (which is one of the games Campbell was referring to), pp 12 and 194. The rule for moves is to do it, do it. In order for it to be a move and for the player to roll dice, the character has to do something that counts as that move; and whenever the character does something that counts as a move, it’s the move and the player rolls dice. Usually...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 01:06 AM
    Not from the DM himself which is what we were discussing... a DM finding themselves now able to cut loose instead of faking it. This meant many 4e DMs were reporting more player kills than they ever had with any edition previously Yeh in a world of D&D caliber magic that isnt the guy standing in front its often the one with the pointy hat
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Today, 12:59 AM
    Too expensive IMHO actually and Fighters have another resource there attacks... spend one of your attacks scanning your enemies for an opening you may use Int/Cha or Wisdom (or appropriate skill such as investigation, insight, deception) and your next attack vs that enemy can be as though you had a superiority die additionally add int/wiz/charisma.
    27 replies | 529 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 10:18 PM
    I added something to the fighter in both 4e and 5e that allows any mental attribute to be used as your initiative stat (call it battle ready). I would like tactical maneuvers for the Battlemaster as the next step similar to how the Battlemaster has Charisma mods
    27 replies | 529 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:08 PM
    You mean the bonus if they are attacking the same monster as you?
    27 replies | 1074 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 08:03 PM
    Nods there is definitely that... but there is also how tactical you are willing to play the adversaries pulling your punches by having enemies play more than a bit dumb was pretty common back in the day 4e felt fair if that makes any sense.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 07:03 PM
    Level appropriate is a bad word LOL
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 04:11 PM
    I suppose in 5e style false opening and taunt should be distinct one based on str/dex and the other based on cha
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:43 PM
    But on your own account this isn't true. Because the GM can always narrate something else. As you're presenting it, all the players get to do is make suggestions that the GM may or may not follow up on. How is that possiby a success, given the declared action? It's obviously a failure - the PC has not got what s/he wanted (namely, incriminating financial documents). So when do the players...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:42 PM
    There are certainly ways to adjust these things though, if "hitting" becomes too easy. I believe that the Fantasy AGE Companion provides some alternate rules (especially to address the oft-cited problem of HP bloat) and there is the upcoming Fantasy AGE Campaign Builder. That said, the Stunt points are fun. They add both additional chaos and tactical choice to combat. Plus, players in my...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Yesterday, 12:14 PM
    That would not be the plan for it. I don't think that most campaigns last that long anyway. Nerf the monsters? I read elsewhere that the frighten/corruption/etc. rules were meant to balance higher level parties. If it's too much, in your experience, then maybe take it out? I don't plan on the grmidark insanity stuff anyway. I have a copy of DCC, and I can't say that I was impressed or...
    7 replies | 278 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Yesterday, 10:44 AM
    Yeah, this actually reminded me much more of the 5e Warlock, where you can pick Invocations related to one of your paths (e.g., Blade, Chain, Tome), but most are essentially class features of your choice. Part of the popularity of the warlock, IMHO, is in how it provides players with greater build and customization points.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Yesterday, 02:21 AM
    Always remember never bother saving the bar maid just the princess because greed is good
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 18th July, 2019, 07:00 PM
    Sure but dont you figure it actually didn't require as much skill or art because EL delivered..
    108 replies | 2631 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Thursday, 18th July, 2019, 03:36 PM
    I have heard DMs say in 4th they can go full out.... also a level +4 encounter is an acceptable encounter in 4e. Th DM has so much control over how dangerous things are by RAW the comparisons fail
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Thursday, 18th July, 2019, 02:51 PM
    Is that perhaps intentional given the tone of the setting? Recommendations for adjusting that? Or do you know of any alternate rules among his MANY supplements that address this? It seems like this could be fairly easily adjusted so that the save dc equals the casting stat (i.e., Intellect or Will), but I am not sure how that would impact balance since I am not sure how high stats typically...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Thursday, 18th July, 2019, 01:33 AM
    Venetian? I don't know. But that's what I would suspect just hearing about it.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Wednesday, 17th July, 2019, 10:56 PM
    In one of my recent posts I referred to violations of genre, fictional positioning and system logic. In the Burning Wheel rulebooks Luke Crane makes the point by saying (something like) "no roll for beam weaponry in the duke's toilet". But that is all about vetoing or refusing to entertain certain action declarations. Lanefan was positing a successful outcome. As Ovinomancer has posted,...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Wednesday, 17th July, 2019, 04:10 PM
    Some of my favorites: * Aspects (Fate) * Fate Points (Fate): notably saw less cheating with rolls from players and less compulsion to "fudge/cheat" my GM rolls. * Success with a Complication (e.g., Fate, Apocalypse World, Blades in the Dark) * Countdown Clocks (Blades in the Dark)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Wednesday, 17th July, 2019, 03:47 PM
    The Indonesian language is basically an artificially standarized variety of Malay, which has been used as a trade language among the archipelago for centuries. The actual most common language of the archipelago is Javanese. So "Indonesian" essentially exists as everyone's shared second language. The Session Tapes, as far as D&D settings are concerned, I would recommend looking at Eberron....
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Wednesday, 17th July, 2019, 01:24 PM
    Why? In a relatively traditional RPG a GM gets to establish a lot of fiction: much of the setting; many of the NPCs; the framing of many situations; the narration of failures; maybe other stuff too that I'm not thinking of at present. What is the function of successful checks if the GM also gets to establish what happens there too? I was just responding to what you posted:
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Wednesday, 17th July, 2019, 12:50 PM
    CapnZapp, that's certainly true, which is one reason why many other RPGs out there are more conscientious about time pressure mechanics. E.g., running out of light/torches in Torchbearer, countdown clocks in Blades in the Dark, and randomized countdown rolls in Index Card RPG. The countdown clocks in Blades, in particular, is pretty genius. Everytime the PCs go into downtime mode to recover,...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Wednesday, 17th July, 2019, 12:10 PM
    Does anyone have any experiences running or playing Shadow of the Demon Lord? If so, what are your thoughts and feedback? What did you like or dislike? How does it feel? Ease of use? Points of contention? Etc. I have been toying with using SotDL for a homebrew, though gutting its grimdark edgelord flavor for a more standard flair. (Supposedly Robert Schwalb is planning on releasing a version...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Wednesday, 17th July, 2019, 06:16 AM
    I have neither said nor implied this. All I said was that Lanefan's example, in which the PC doesn't achieve what the player hoped for, is not a success and hence might be a feasible failure narration.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Wednesday, 17th July, 2019, 06:13 AM
    I agree with this. I use the phrase inhabitation of the character to try and convey this idea. I think, though, that some systems can be more demanding on the players than others, and challenging in that sense. To give examples: Prince Valiant and MHRP tend to be relatively light-hearted in the situations they throw up; whereas Burning Wheel (and I suspect Apocalypse World) can be much...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 07:51 PM
    Rubs off was also used in the same sentence if you are going there
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 04:04 PM
    Same, but the Aspects are almost a subsystem due to how they tie everything together.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 03:16 PM
    Noteworthy difference ... you opt in to the extra hd based healing
    3 replies | 262 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 02:57 PM
    I did suggest Perception earlier, though Intuition may also work. Willpower (i.e., wisdom saves) could then be moved to Charisma.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 02:46 PM
    I love Mikes work even the times I disagreed with details the fresh eyes on the game and how it can invoke heroic archetypal characters is right up my alley
    17 replies | 413 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 02:12 PM
    Sounds like some very similar rule idea.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 11:24 AM
    Hussar, Lanefan - if narrowing of possible resolutions = the GM being bound by the results of checks, than sure, any system other than "GM decides" will have that consequence. But unless the dice are rigged then fails are possible, in which case fail scenarios are possible resolutions, and there is no narrowing of the range of possible resolution.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 11:01 AM
    Healing Surges the 5e variant rule should be called Second Wind. Ok not a big deal right? nothing to get teary or sniffles over however once you notice that it implements something rarely ever actually used it kind of becomes annoying (SW was kind of a back up thing not the meat of HS use). Second Winds were rarely ever used in my experience unless your party lacked the leader class or were...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 08:45 AM
    Offhand Commands is going to be a build choice feature or actually just a class feature that has no impact unless you are a beastmaster if you have 1 hand free you may more adeptly command your beast companion, your attacks gain a tier scaling bonus to damage of +2 +3, +4. Inherently Endowed as you level your awesome rubs off on your beast and they gain effective inherent bonuses (equal to...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 07:11 AM
    Your example doesn't show any narrowing of possible results. The scenario you describe is a possible failure narration; and it could be a success narration if that is what the player decides his/her PC searches for.
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 12:57 AM
    How about recommended I mean trust your players to be thematic and give them an extra if you want
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Tuesday, 16th July, 2019, 12:56 AM
    Other classes can also get thematically appropriate abilities for their reactions. Paladins have Retributive Strike. Wizards can pick up Counterspell. Etc.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 09:20 PM
    I believe many more people have watched The Avengers than have watched The Seventh Seal. But that doesn't mean that every time I want to talk about the latter I talk about the former instead or as well. If people who only want to talk about D&D, or who have no interest in talking or reading about how other systems do things, don't want to participate in this thread, that's a risk I'm prepared...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 09:15 PM
    Reposted:
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 04:41 PM
    My pedantic complaints are really old and while I can express them I am over the majority of them...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 04:15 PM
    I might have to build that group as a D&D party
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 02:29 PM
    AoOs have been mostly reimagined as reactions that would make sense for each class. So a wizard, for example, could not necessarily perform AoOs as per a fighter given their training, but they would likely know how to counterspell when those situations rise.
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 01:55 PM
    In your case, you seem to know both BW and D&D, which are the two systems I referenced in the post of mine that you quoted. Do you have any thoughts about this mind flayer and false memories example that might draw on either of the systems? Or if you want to engage it by reference to another system, that would be interesting too!
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 01:48 PM
    Do you have much experience with 4e D&D? It's a bit of an open question exactly what tools 4e provides, because the skill challenge is - as presented - such an open-ended or un-nailed-down framework that (experience suggests) needs users to bring ideas and/or experience from outside to really get the best out of it. I think a skill challenge might be able to handle the scenario you're...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 12:45 PM
    Has anyone investigated this.... the idea of "courtly intrigues" has me wondering about whether it might be a flavor of Martial Practices.
    1 replies | 747 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 12:42 PM
    There are very few elements in 4e that have flavor so far knocked down that you cannot shake them up. Dispel Magic and Martial Practices vs Rituals are ones so far I have seen brought up. MP and R are generally fixed by giving MP sufficient support or allowing extremely liberal reflavoring of rituals. So do we create zones with a different flavor we call them areas of influence and allow...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 10:22 AM
    I'm not sure about incentives. When I read the Strike(!) I think of "intent and task" and failure narration in BW. Or the example from AW that I posted upthread. If the check fails, the GM is entitled to narrate the failure by imposing a new and unwanted description of the PC's action. But I don't think in any of the systems this could go as far as you've fallen in love with the maiden unless...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 10:16 AM
    This is an interesting question - in general, and about D&D play: To what extent is the GM permitted to rewrite player-authored PC backstory by drawing upon a combination of (i) situation and stakes and (ii) failed checks. In BW (for instance) I think this is fair game. The only version of D&D I can think of able to handle this is 4e. I don't really see how it would be done in AD&D. And from...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 10:02 AM
    If the player is avoiding expedience by sticking to conceptualisation, how is that conceptualisation going to be challenged? Or changed? If the player is at liberty to change conceptuatlisation in response to choices, what governs those choices? Self-evidently it can't be conceptualisation. You don't want it to be expedience. Is it whim? Do you have actual play examples to post that...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 12:21 AM
    Got you covered. Done and done. ;)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Monday, 15th July, 2019, 12:11 AM
    Too early to say.
    29 replies | 1390 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 11:55 PM
    Yay give me some swordmage please
    106 replies | 2387 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 11:21 PM
    Ad Hominem? I don't care about your argument. It was a dry comment that it would not be a pemerton megathread without your usual appeal to the lexicon at some point in this discussion. ;)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 11:14 PM
    It isny exactly a house rule but my daughter liked the option of turning potential enemies into allies
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 05:08 PM
    (1) This thread is in general RPG. Not D&D. There's a reason for that. (2) I'm not saying that players should or shouldn't do anything in every system. The OP invites discussion about various ways in which true descriptions of PC actions might be established. The current discussion has moved on a bit from that, to also talk about how true descriptions of PC choices, PC emotional states, etc...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 05:08 PM
    The power if it is working on top of the Battlemaster needs to be different. Come and get it for 5e.Battlemaster
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 05:01 PM
    You posted this not too far upthread: Before you posted that, Campbell already posted on outline of mechanics from Exalted which contradict what you said: the player in Exalted (i) does not sit out of the loop, and (ii) does have input on how his/her PC would react. Further upthread I posted the Apocalypse World mechanics for PvP seduction/maipulation. In that system the player gets to...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 04:52 PM
    This is missing the point. One may as well ask, What story can't D&D produce? Well, if the players and the GM all get together and agree on it then you can play out Casablanca in D&D, can't you? (That was Campbell's point about consensus.) But the current topic of discussion is how that might be done, and what sort of play experience might be involved. The example of Exalted, for instance,...
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 04:34 PM
    I guess you can assert things in ignorance, yet avoid error, if you get lucky. On this occasion though, your luck has failed you. The claims you make aren't plausible even within the compass of D&D, which includes the 4e skill challenge mechanic. They are completely wrong when it comes to other systems such as the ones that chaochou has mentioned.
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 04:05 PM
    Actually, it is as "semantics" is fundamentally about 'meaning,' and you are currently doing what is referred to in the field of linguistics as 'lexical semantics.' For someone who likes to drop lexical entries into arguments, I'm surprised you don't know that. :D Yeah, but what about imagining a persuasion roll in D&D?! :p
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:47 PM
    Ah, there we go. It's not a pemerton megathread until Maxperson gets into a debate of semantics and pulls out a lexicon so that he can argue definitions. We are also just missing Maxperson broadening the sense of a term such that it becomes meaningless in the discourse; let's say, something akin to "Everything is a challenge." ;)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:41 PM
    This completely misunderstands chaochou's point. As I posted upthread, "cheating" or acting on out-of-game motivations has nothing to do with what anyone is talking about in this thread. The basic point is that, in the scenarios you keep putting forward, nothing happens to the PC's inner being or self-conception that the player did not choose. So the player choose that which s/he prefers....
    713 replies | 19927 view(s)
    4 XP
  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:35 PM
    Duel of Wits from Burning Wheel has been mentioned. It's an interesting example, because it permits PCs to be persuaded (by other PCs, or by NPCs) but doesn't change their underlying motivations/orientations. In the context of (say) a maiden trying to persuade a PC to help her, it can certainly permit that. And if the maiden is charming or flirty that can factor into her checks (eg FoRK...
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:29 PM
    This is probably my most consistent dissatisfaction with D&D. There are many times where I have brainstormed possible campaigns or games of D&D that I have wanted to run. But in the process, I invariably find myself feeling like my vision of the world becomes a slave to the rules and not the rules to the world. D&D does D&D fantasy well, and many could run nothing but these types of stories,...
    88 replies | 3146 view(s)
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  • pemerton's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 03:05 PM
    I'll leave the fidelity claim to one side. But the second claim is an empirical one. I'd be curious to see if it's true. Personally I doubt it - I don't have experience with Exalted, but in my experience with other systems that provide various sorts of systematic support for engagement with PC motivations and emotions the range of characters played - when considered in proportion to the overall...
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 01:10 PM
    Completely a better thread
    74 replies | 2838 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 01:06 PM
    Oh I quite agree about using the secondary as build / design dependent - remember the Fighter is the ultimate tough guy, in 4e they most definitely had builds that made CON their secondary (featured a lot of temporary hit points and bold fearless attacks in 4e it was almost a different rout to striker roll too)
    164 replies | 5736 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 12:53 PM
    Or a few years back 6 texas rangers hiyo hiyo rode in the sun (The lone ranger) or Walker Texas Ranger. But no I think the Fantasy Ranger Aragorn is likely to be much more broadly associated even with those around the earlier times, the movies were astoundingly popular AND received 17 Academy Awards,
    352 replies | 12527 view(s)
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  • Aldarc's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 12:22 PM
    CapnZapp, why do you keep letting your @$$ do all the talking when it comes to PF2? When will you get it in your head that this is a complete non-issue for probably the hypermajority of players?
    123 replies | 7328 view(s)
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  • Garthanos's Avatar
    Sunday, 14th July, 2019, 07:13 AM
    Did I mention I think this has a lot of cool stuff in it... regardless of whether it is "the ranger to me"
    352 replies | 12527 view(s)
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Saturday, 20th July, 2019


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Saturday, 20th July, 2019

  • 03:17 AM - CubicsRube mentioned Aldarc in post Experiences running Shadow of the Demon Lord?
    Aldarc you just take the higher boons and banes so correct. Classes start getting boons through class abilities and spells as they level up, so they are much more resilient to fighting a horrifying creature in the dark while poisoned for example. And in ideal situations, they'll wipe the floor with minor foes. And yes the modularity is the main thing for me. Perhaps you want to create a gnomish temple to the sciences? You could make a priest with technomancy, arcana and time traditions. You can have a wizard who trained in an academy of the elements who learn air fire water and earth traditions, and another wizard in the party who trained in a rand al'thor style martial academy learning battle, protection and destruction traditions. It's the first game I've seen where that is really easy to do.

Sunday, 14th July, 2019

  • 05:08 PM - pemerton mentioned Aldarc in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    ... (2) I'm not saying that players should or shouldn't do anything in every system. The OP invites discussion about various ways in which true descriptions of PC actions might be established. The current discussion has moved on a bit from that, to also talk about how true descriptions of PC choices, PC emotional states, etc might be established. (3) If someone's answer to the questions posed in the OP is the way D&D does it, end of story then they're welcome not to participat in the thread. If they're going to make ungrounded assertions that nothing else is really possible, well that's not very helpful either and is fair game for clarification or correction. (4) The most interesting thing for me at the moment - obviously I can't speak for others - is what are the necessary conditions for a genuine challenge to character concept? This is what Ovinomancer and I have disagreed about - I believe without undue acrimony! I would be very interested to hear what Campbell, chaochou and/or Aldarc thinks about it, should they care to weigh in. (Of course it's their prerogatibe not to.) My own views on this are heavily influenced by a certain conception of GM role in terms of framing scenes that put players under pressure by putting things that matter to the PC at stake. I don't know Exalted at all except from Campbell's accounts in this and other threads; and my experience with PbtA games is fairly limited, although I know the rulesets for DW and AW fairly well.

Thursday, 11th July, 2019

  • 03:41 AM - pemerton mentioned Aldarc in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    A long post as I catch up on this thread. If it's left to a die roll or the DM's decision, there is no real test of character. <snip> There's a huge difference between me struggling with a decision for my PC, and clack, clack, clack! Oh, look. This time he's an ass, maybe next time he'll be noble. *yawn*The second bit here suggest to me that you're not familiar with the play of any of the non-D&D games that Aldarc, Umbran, Ovinomancer and I have referenced - Fate, Pendrgaon, Prince Valiant, MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic, Bunring Wheel, etc. And the first bit is odd, because the way you find out whether a D&D character is tough enough to beat Orcus in a fight is (among other things) to roll some dice. Of course D&D combat is not nothing but die rolls. But nor is a skill challenge, or a Duel of Wits, or whatever other mechanic a system might use to find out whether or not your PC is steely-hearted enough to resist the maiden's wink. Consulting rules makes zero difference here. It's just a question of whether or not you trust the GM to set up the game to be fun. Adding a veneer of rules on top is just a comfort blanket for gamers who really like rulesI certainly find it interesting that FrogReaver and Maxperson are fine with the maiden melting a PC's heart of the GM has written down (i) that the maiden has such a special ability and (ii) it allows a saving throw. Given that there's no rule in D&D t...

Saturday, 6th July, 2019

  • 03:20 AM - pemerton mentioned Aldarc in post Is Pathfinder 2 Paizo's 4E?
    ...y a GM or module writer but is done collectively at the table using the classic RPGing devices of players playing characters through the GM's world/situation. An early example is Prince Valiant. The best-known contemporary examples are probably Dogs in the Vineyard and Apocalypse World and many of its offshoots. My favourite version of such a system is Burning Wheel. A group of us on these boards - me, darkbard, Manbearcat and some others - think that of all versions of D&D, 4e is the best suited for narrativist play; and that independently of comparisons to other versions of D&D, it's well-suited to narrativist play. The features of the system that underpin that are the same features that make it poorly-suited for simulationist play, and that therefore make it unpopular with many RPGers. Whatever the commercial fate of Paizo's PF2, I've seen no evidence that PF2 is intended to be, or will be, a good game for narrativist purposes. But I haven't been following that closely; maybe Aldarc has a different view or can shed more light.

Monday, 24th June, 2019

  • 09:10 PM - Manbearcat mentioned Aldarc in post The urban fantasy market seems awfully stagnant
    ...st Girl treats all monsters as essentially vampiric in nature, even if they feed on abstract concepts like dreams and anger. I'm interesting in analyzing what makes these monsters tick in our minds. What makes the different varieties of vampires identifiable as vampires? What makes the different werewolves identifiable? For example, both Vampire: The Masquerade and Feed use the internal struggle between humanity and vampirism as a thematic conflict. Werewolves are liminal beings, existing between human and animal yet gaining supernatural insight and knowledge from this. I'm interested in exploring less popular and more esoteric ideas. For example, The Everlasting had original concepts for sin-eating gargoyles and immortal grail questers among others. Monsterhearts has a wide variety of both official and fan-made "skins" representing metaphors for humanity, like an ice queen with literal ice powers (The Frozen) or a kid whose "imaginary" friend is all too real (The Shadow). I'm with Aldarc here. I don't think the answer is a single general use Urban Fantasy TTRPGing system with theme/premise-neutral mechanics to rule them all (this almost always leads to an overwhelming GM presence in play trajectory to manufacture an experience...typically putting players in a significantly more passive position than in a game like Blades in the Dark). This is precisely why I brought up Blades in the Dark. I think the answer is MORE niche Urban Fantasy TTRPGing systems with encoded theme/premise and a holisitic approach to system (all mechanics, reward cycles, ethos, participant authority) that relentlessly focuses on producing an emergent fiction and participant experience around those things.
  • 08:52 AM - pemerton mentioned Aldarc in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    ...ause ("rubbish is scattered about") that is, as far as information is concerned, of secondary interest. The clause what was once a fine guest bedroom is the main information-bearing clause from the point of view of describing what's there. The mismatch between syntactic structure and informational structure is a stylistic device. My contrasting formulation - it's a run-down bedroom with rubbish scattered about - aligns the syntax with the information: the syntactically main clause is also the main information-bearing clause, while the bit about rubbish is reduced to an adjectival phrase. It's that, not the extremely modest vocabulary change (ie my example replaces was once fine with is run down and drops the "guest" because I don't see how the past use of a bedroom as a guest bedroom is knowable by mere visual inspection), that makes my reworking less "narrative" and more conversational. The analysis I've just offered might also be relevant to the ongoing exchange between Imaro and Aldarc (? I think, haven't gone back to check) about what a conversational style might actually look like.

Sunday, 23rd June, 2019

  • 02:09 AM - Hussar mentioned Aldarc in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    LOL. So, essentially, all Saelorn is seeing of this thread is Bedrockgames talking to himself? Unless Imaro somehow avoided the block hammer. ROTFLMAO. That has to be the WEIRDEST thread to see. :D :lol: Ok, so, yeah, Aldarc and Bedrockgames, I'd put things like diction, organization, that sort of stuff, under the umbrella of "presentation". How you get the information from A to B, rather than the content of that information itself. Now, at that point, sure, I can see a more conversational style being one way of doing it. Less formal, less formulaic. And, again, it's going to really, really depend on the game you are playing. Some games will necessitate a more "narrative" style just to evoke particular moods and tones. I just find that when I do that, and don't work from well structured notes (or boxed text) I forget stuff. I miss details. The other issue I have is pacing. Which, honestly, is my own bugaboo. As someone running the game, I want to get as much information into the player's hands as quickly and efficiently as possible. Which means that I need to organize narration to avoid questions from the players. If I get all the information to them, they won't need to ask many questions...

Saturday, 22nd June, 2019

  • 02:35 AM - Hussar mentioned Aldarc in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    Hussar, I would strongly appreciate it if you would stop constructing strawman arguments with my name attached and insisting that I am strongly saying anything that we both know you can't back up with evidence. It's rude and you're being a dick. Thankfully, I'm confident that Bedrockgames will exercise more sense than to bite at your misrepresentations of what I have said. Wait, what? So, vocabulary IS the important distinction between conversational and prose language? Now I'm really confused. Frankly Aldarc, I'm really having trouble parsing your argument through the snark. Could you please, in simple terms, outline what your argument actually is then? Because, honestly, I wasn't trying to misrepresent anything. I honestly believed that you were arguing that vocabulary did not matter.
  • 01:38 AM - Hussar mentioned Aldarc in post GM DESCRIPTION: NARRATION OR CONVERSATION?
    See, ok, Bedrockgames, but, what you're talking about is vocabulary choice. Fair enough. But, Aldarc has insisted, pretty vehemently, all the way along that vocabulary choice doesn't matter. And, you have never contradicted him. So, are you disagreeing with Aldarc? It appears that you are, but, I want to be very sure. It's not about "blurring dualities". It's that your side of the argument isn't quite as clear as you might think. It's confusing. You're saying that vocabulary matters. Aldarc is very strongly saying that vocabulary doesn't. So, which is it? Now, me, I think I agree with you - vocabulary matters. Now, you don't think there's much value in using an extended vocabulary - that you "don't use big adjectives". Fair enough. That's where you and I disagree. I think that most DM's actually do slip into "big adjectives", mostly subconsciously, depending on what game you happen to be playing. But, Aldarc would say that we're both wrong and that "big adjectives" ISN'T what delineates conversation from boxed text. And, frankly, if vocabulary isn't the delineati...

Thursday, 13th June, 2019

  • 02:45 PM - Imaro mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I do the same thing actually. But this reasoning doesn't make much sense to me. The presentation is the same, you are just interpreting the presentation differently based on a mechanic. However I think we are getting pretty far afield of the crux of the debate. It really isn't about whether one is more important than the other. It is more about what kind of delivery/presentation/description people want. Some of us want a style that is natural, doesn't affect the manner or techniques of novel writing, some of us do want a more literary style of description. We've debated the meanings of these various terms. But I think if we make an attempt to understand the key difference arising, it centers around what kind of descriptions do you want from the GM and do you want them to be more or less literary (i.e. should they be evocative, sound like novel prose, employ literary techniques, etc or should they be more conversational and plain spoken). @Aldarc 's post above yours is definitely about which is more important... And contrary to what you've been saying it's been framed like that by quite a few posters in this thread. EDIT: Emphasis mine... IMO this would have been a much more interesting discussion topic

Monday, 10th June, 2019

  • 12:19 AM - Hussar mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...ly established as part of the lexicon. Same with gaunt or sunken eyes when describing inhuman, otherworldly things. I would expect that certain words would be more common when playing D&D and others would be more common when playing Call of Cthulhu and still others when playing Marvel Super Heroes. Use of the word “psychic” in an X-Men campaign, for example....it’s not a common word heard in conversation, but it’ll certainly come up when talking about the X-Men. Again, use of adjectives isn’t what I’m talking about. They’re descriptive by nature. I would agree with you that sometimes one choice of word can be more creative than another. I think this can happen even when it’s not the focus of the speaker/writer. I think such examples are a bit tangential to the idea of craft. The question I guess would be, "why"? Psychic in an X-Men game of course would be common, as it would likely be a game defined term. Like "to-hit" or "githyanki" or "humanoid" really. But, where Aldarc gets it wrong, is that we're talking about situational language that makes sense in context. Obviously there are going to be all sorts of jargon terms in any specialized and stylized conversation. Listen to two baseball fans going at it and they're not even really speaking English anymore. :D But, we're talking about the other language choices. "Wield", "intricately", "gaunt" etc. There are plain conversation versions of these words and phrases, but, they are being left behind in favor of more colorful language. Why? As soon as you start injecting things like "eldritch" and whatnot, you're leaving conversation behind and moving along the scale.
  • 12:10 AM - Hussar mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...e just making assumptions now...also I didn't say I preferred 1 over 2. I said 1 has more information, and there are definitely more analytically minded players who don't care about the flavorful description as much as they care about the info. And I don't think they are a small minority in our hobby. That said, you are right, these two descriptions are both pretty conversational, not literary. So the example is a bit puzzling anyways. Example two is just a bit vague. Again, I don't think this argument makes a whole lot of sense. We are talking about a conversational medium. Literary doesn't really seem like it would apply. you can try to run a game in a literary style. but I don't think it is necessary. Nor do I think it is particularly advisable. This is why I don't think we're as far apart as it might appear. I look at words like "intricately" and I think "literary" not "conversation" because the words "intricately carved" would almost never appear in a conversation. Aldarc above talks about a mechanic using technical language. Thing is, that's not really a conversation either. That's a mechanic imparting information to the customer, but, it's probably mostly one direction and if the mechanic dives too far into technical jargon, there's no conversation at all as the listener has no idea what's being talked about. Is it "literary"? Maybe not. But, it's certainly not conversation either. Aldarc keeps pressing me to prove that the language is literary. I'm not because the definition of "literary" is so nebulous. I don't have to. I only have to show that it isn't conversational to show that pemerton is wrong. And I CAN show that because the language that's being chosen, often deliberately chosen, is being chosen to evoke specific reactions and is language that would almost never appear in a conversation.

Sunday, 9th June, 2019

  • 07:33 PM - Imaro mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Let me ask a question to pemerton, Hawkeye, Bedrockgames and Aldarc. Would you use the same words/language/etc. to describe a remote village in the mountains for say a Ravenloft campaign vs a Four color superhero game like Icons? let's assume good faith in that the Icons village isn't supposed to be haunted or anything tht would make it more Ravenloft-esque.... EDIT: Meant hawkeyefan ...
  • 02:25 PM - pemerton mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Maybe because you have not made any assertions which are (a) sufficiently concrete for falsification testing (Karl Popper style)Popper has a (controversial) theory of what makes a claim, or perhaps a collection of claims, scientific. I'm not making a scientific claim. I'm making an aesthetic claim. So Popperian falsifiability has nothing to do with it. My claim is about the point of RPGing, what makes it a distinctive and worthwhile creative endeavour. Not far upthread Aldarc has given a pretty good account of my claim, so I'll add a few glosses to that. I am saying that entertainment in virtue of quality narration and performance is not what makes RPGing a distinctive and worthwhile creative endeavour. Rather, it's situation and resulting inhabitation and protagonism. I've said why I think this: because quality narration and performance are the weakest elements of the typical RPG experience (given the ready availability to most RPGers of genuinely quality narrations and performances), whereas protagonism in the context of engaging situation is the distinct thing that RPGs offer. When Hussar and Imaro say that they would quit games with ordinary-language descriptions because they'd find them too boring, my thought in response is that those games must have weak situations, or GMs who don't facilitiate protagonism. After all, both experience and reading lead me to think there's plenty of that going around. To elaborate on that last point: Hussa...

Saturday, 8th June, 2019

  • 07:54 AM - pemerton mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Equivocation requires intent. It's an attempt to conceal the truth, which requires the intent to conceal the truth, or to avoid committing, which requires the intent to avoid committing. There's no way around it. A wrong conclusion is just a wrong conclusion without other intent to change things.As I posted upthread, I don't know what your field is. I don't know how many logic or philosophy seminars you have attended. But the standard word used to describe a fallacious or sophistic argument that superficially appears valid, but in fact is not valid because a key term carries different meanings in different sentences of the argument, is equivocation. And the cognate verb is equivocate. That is what Bedrockgames and Aldarc are talking about. The fact that you don't notice that you're doing it doesn't make your argument any more valid.

Friday, 7th June, 2019

  • 04:21 PM - pemerton mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...it doesn't interfere with the narrative flow and enjoyment of the game. The scene should be presented therefore in terms relative to the character's abilities . . . Players who want to climb onto your coffee table and jump across your living room to prove that their character could jump over the chasm have probably missed the whole point of the story. Commenting on this, Ron Edwards says that "I can think of no better text to explain the vast difference between playing the games RuneQuest and HeroQuest." Which is to say, there are some systems which make enginnering or cartographical precision central to resolution, but there are others that don't. Certainly establishing a call to action doesn't depend upon any general uniformity or specificity of imagination. I think it does require estagblishing the situation by reference to the resolution mechanics - the plaeyrs can't answer the call if they don't know, in general terms, how their characters might fare. Which goes back to Aldarc's point some way upthread: RPGs have ways of establishing the emotinal "heft" of situations that are quite different from the sort of evocative composition or performances that other creative endeavours rely upon In my 4e game, for instance, if the players are committed to confronting Orcus, and I - as I did, following a successful knowledge check by the Sage of Ages - tell them his stats, then the players respond with the apposite awe, fear, etc. I don't need to evoke, by deft narration, a sense of how terrible Orcus is. The stats do that work. Of course different systems open up and close down different sorts of possibiities in this respect. For instance, in MHRP/Cortex+ Heroic it is the state of the Doom Pool, as much as the stats of any individual antagonist, that conveys the significance of the present situation. And in Dungeon World or Apocalypse World antagonists don't quite have "stats" in the way they do in D&D or Cortex+, and so system conveys heft in different ways, sch a...
  • 06:10 AM - Lanefan mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    I think it's possible to describe a situation without "painting a picture" in the literary sense. If I can't engage the players unless I "paint a picture" in the literary sense, then I worry that it's probably not a very good situation. You still need to paint the picture and make it all clear somehow, even if the players are already fully engaged. Why? Because if you don't you'll end up with players imagining or "seeing" the same situation in completely different ways both from each other and (worse) from you the DM, and reacting to it based on their own interpretation of what you-as-DM said. I've had this happen numerous times both as DM and player, where I (or the DM) wasn't clear enough and a player (or I) had a character react in a way that made perfect sense to the player but none at all to the DM: the DM - be it me or someone else - simply wasn't painting a clear enough picture and the player had the character act based on wrong info.
  • 12:12 AM - pemerton mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Now there is a zifnarb in your building. What do you do?Whow know? Tell me what it is. If you think telling me what it is necessarily requires literary effort, then what's your conception of teaching children the language? At some point in time, you have to drop the analogies and actually describe what's going on, directly. And, if you want to have any hope of hooking the players, you need to use at least some evocative language. Unless your game consists of nothing but retreaded material, where the context is already set, you need to actually paint that picture for the player. I think it's possible to describe a situation without "painting a picture" in the literary sense. If I can't engage the players unless I "paint a picture" in the literary sense, then I worry that it's probably not a very good situation. EDIT: Having read on, I see that Aldarc has made much the same points upthread. Also, I've spent far, far too long dealing with non-native English speakers who do not share our culture to take any description for granted. Every single reference you've made presumes a native English speaker (or near native anyway) with a deep grounding in western Judeo-Christian culture. As soon as you lose that background, none of your allegorical explanations are going to work. Imagine teaching D&D to ten year olds and you're trying to reference Men In Black - a 20 year old movie they've likely never seen. As hawkeyefan has said, what does this have to do with literary quality?

Thursday, 6th June, 2019

  • 08:28 AM - Hussar mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    Not me. I learned my lesson last time. Nice Zifnarb. Niiiiiice Zifnarb. Here's some loot for you. Heh, you joke, but, the point is still there. Aldarc relied on comparisons - a warhorse to a Lamborghini to make the point. Or comparing the monster to the monster at the end of Men in Black. Only problem is, that presumes that the listener actually knows what you're talking about. If someone hasn't seen Men in Black or isn't a car person, then these comparisons fall flat. You wind up with a Darmok and Jelad in Tenagra situation. At some point in time, you have to drop the analogies and actually describe what's going on, directly. And, if you want to have any hope of hooking the players, you need to use at least some evocative language. Unless your game consists of nothing but retreaded material, where the context is already set, you need to actually paint that picture for the player. Sure, "There's a bomb" is going to get a reaction. We all know what a bomb is. "There's a bakudan" isn't really telling anyone anything, unless they happen to speak the language. At which time, you have to break out your wordsmithing anvil and ...

Tuesday, 4th June, 2019

  • 01:30 PM - pemerton mentioned Aldarc in post Is RPGing a *literary* endeavour?
    ...ell-known genre territory, you need to build that context into the game so that it becomes familiar. This can be all the GM's job or it can be shared by everyone (collaborative world building).Well this certainly gets to the heart of it, or to the heart of something at least. I see two related questions. (1) Is worldbuilding done, and context established, for the players? That depends on the system and the table. My experience, going back over 30 years to my early years as a GM, is that players are more invested when the context is something that they have a hand in. This can be as simple as PC backstory that establishes a mentor/master. And this is something that can be done conversationally. For a somewhat formalised/proceduralised version see eg Fate Core, or PtbA games. But informal approaches have been used for a lot longer than those games have been around. (2) Does establishing context, and the resulting "pull to action", depend on evocative language/wordcraft? Like Aldarc not too far upthread, I tend to think that it doesn't. If the context is something that the GM delivers to the players, then maybe evocative language is required to get them to buy in. As I posted early in this thread, I think this makes the success of the enterprise rest on the weaker rather than stronger aspect of the game form (ie it depends on one participant's literary capcity, rather than on the shared generation of fiction which, as I see it, is at the heart of post-dungeoncrawling RPGing). But when the players help supply the context then I think the emotional investment comes from inside rather than outside (to return to a metaphor I used a while ago upthread). I've been thinking about some comments that appeared some pages back (around page 90, I think) regarding the importance of evocative descriptions in the game. Instead of just calling out die rolls and watching the hit points go down, it's helpful to describe the action from the perspective of the characters. I...


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Saturday, 20th July, 2019

  • 06:29 AM - Mistwell quoted Aldarc in post Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?
    CapnZapp, why do you keep letting your @$$ do all the talking when it comes to PF2? When will you get it in your head that this is a complete non-issue for probably the hypermajority of players? Look, I am not someone who agrees with CapnZapp all the time. Goodness knows I am not. But his reply to you looked completely reasonable. I mean, I get you disagree with him, but there was nothing outside of normal conversational difference of opinion in what he said, from what I can see. And I disagree with you about that hyper-majority line. It's a real issue. It's one WOTC has written articles about. It's come up in topics here for 20 years now, and on the WOTC boards, and on Reddit, and other message boards. It might not be as important to some as it is to others, but it's a real, rational issue a meaningful number of people care about.

Friday, 19th July, 2019

  • 08:23 PM - Umbran quoted Aldarc in post Homogenized Races?
    Venetian? I don't know. But that's what I would suspect just hearing about it. Venetian and Genoese dialects, yeah. Significant amounts of Catalan and Occitan as well. And then loan words from pretty much everything on the Mediterranean Sea, as you'd expect for a trade pidgin.
  • 05:59 PM - Xaelvaen quoted Aldarc in post Similarities 4E PF2?
    Yeah, this actually reminded me much more of the 5e Warlock, where you can pick Invocations related to one of your paths (e.g., Blade, Chain, Tome), but most are essentially class features of your choice. Part of the popularity of the warlock, IMHO, is in how it provides players with greater build and customization points. That's a great point - I hadn't honestly thought of that, but Warlock is considerably popular in our 5E games - could be just that reason. The focus spells and replenishment of focus points to use them after a short rest, are pretty much encounter powers. The swap a class feat for another class feat hybrid-classing is pretty similar to 4E. I didn't do any Multi-classing in the playtest, so I hadn't really checked that section out - the watered-down feats from 4E multiclassing, before the PHB3, were terrible. As far as encounter resources, 5E uses several of those too (Warlocks, Martial Maneuvers, Monk Ki...) - so it made me think more of 5E's Monk than 4E's A/E/D...
  • 12:31 PM - Doc_Klueless quoted Aldarc in post What are your favourite single game mechanics?
    What are yours?Some of mine are already mentioned so I'll get those out of the way (heh): D&D's advantage/disadvantage is a really elegant way to replace all those fiddly bonuses. It's one of my favourite things about 5E.Love, love, love how this got rid of all those piddly modifiers. I know other games have done similar things, but this was my first massive exposure to the mechanic. Stunt Points (Dragon Age, Fantasy Age): roll 3d6, doubles on rolls generate Stunt points equal to the value of the off-colored stunt die that a player can spend on various cool thingsI really like this one as it give each round something new and interesting. One of the chief complaints I hear about the AGE system is that "hitting" the target becomes ridiculously easy as the characters advance in level. My own players, when I was learning the system a while back, really complained about it. But the 3d6 roll really isn't so much a "To Hit" Roll as it is a "Generate Stunt Points" Roll. Once we overcame t...

Thursday, 18th July, 2019

  • 09:13 PM - TwoSix quoted Aldarc in post Experiences running Shadow of the Demon Lord?
    Is that perhaps intentional given the tone of the setting? Recommendations for adjusting that? Or do you know of any alternate rules among his MANY supplements that address this? Forbidden Rules is the supplement that has the most variant rules in it...might be something in there.
  • 09:58 AM - CapnZapp quoted Aldarc in post Similarities 4E PF2?
    CapnZapp, that's certainly true, which is one reason why many other RPGs out there are more conscientious about time pressure mechanics. E.g., running out of light/torches in Torchbearer, countdown clocks in Blades in the Dark, and randomized countdown rolls in Index Card RPG. The countdown clocks in Blades, in particular, is pretty genius. Everytime the PCs go into downtime mode to recover, the countdown clocks for their surrounding factions will continue ticking. Not just one, but all of them. Eventually they will trigger, with or without the PCs addressing it, changing the game states. The world around the players advances regardless of their resting. Ignore these things at your own peril, and the situation will boil.Sure. However, the D&D community is rather insular and simply uninterested in "other games". So far all those other games could be printed on the Moon, for all their impact on dndish games (read "no impact whatsoever") Rephrased: until those mechanics appear in the officia...

Monday, 15th July, 2019

  • 09:47 PM - Imaro quoted Aldarc in post The Evolution of Tieflings in D&D: Interviews with Zeb Cook and Colin McComb
    (1) These tieflings are still all infernal-based, if anything 5e SCAG made tieflings far more Asmodeus-only than 4e actually did (see below). ;) (2) The actual 4e lore was that the human nobles who would become tieflings made pacts with the devils of the Nine Hells. We are never told that it was with Asmodeus or that tieflings were an Asmodeus-only thing. Far from it. 4e Tiefling book, p. 4: That's pretty much it. Nowhere does it specify that tieflings were an Asmodeus-only thing, only that it was pact with the devils of the Nine Hells. This lines up with tieflings in the PHB, the SCAG, and MToF in 5e, which are still infernal-based. Edit: Checked and the name "Asmodeus" does not even appear in the Tiefling race description, again only that the tieflings' ancestors made pacts with devils. In fact the Asmodeus-only stuff comes more from 5e than 4e! 5e PHB (p. 42): And since you like talking about the alternate tieflings that SCAG provided, then I'm sure you are incredibly w...
  • 06:18 AM - Imaro quoted Aldarc in post The Evolution of Tieflings in D&D: Interviews with Zeb Cook and Colin McComb
    You've invented that insinuation. Yep just like 4e didn't change the cosmology of other D&D settings when it introduced the World Axis... Sure, but it hardly erases how it seems that players in 5e mostly enjoy the version that essentially carried over from 4e. Did they offer variants later? Sure. But the fanart and current version seems strongly influenced and increasingly locked into the 4e-brand tiefling, much in the same manner that kobolds began moving towards being mini-dragons with 3e. These things happen as the game evolves. Is this a statement about what players of 5e prefer... is fan art being used as support for said statement??
  • 04:11 AM - Umbran quoted Aldarc in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    Ad Hominem? I don't care about your argument. It was a dry comment that it would not be a pemerton megathread without your usual appeal to the lexicon at some point in this discussion. ;) At was an attack and uncalled for. If you don't have a constructive response to my arguments, don't mention or respond to me. Both of you decided to continue a personal dispute despite the warning. Time for both of you to take a walk - find another thread where you're not going to engage in personal sniping. Don't post in this one any further. Despite how clear this case is, one or both of you will likely disagree and want to argue with me. Take it to PM, please, and leave the thread alone. Anyone else?
  • 02:59 AM - Maxperson quoted Aldarc in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    Ad Hominem? I don't care about your argument. It was a dry comment that it would not be a pemerton megathread without your usual appeal to the lexicon at some point in this discussion. ;) At was an attack and uncalled for. If you don't have a constructive response to my arguments, don't mention or respond to me.

Sunday, 14th July, 2019

  • 04:28 PM - Maxperson quoted Aldarc in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    Actually, it is as "semantics" is fundamentally about 'meaning,' and you are currently doing what is referred to in the field of linguistics as 'lexical semantics.' For someone who likes to drop lexical entries into arguments, I'm surprised you don't know that. :D Regardless of whether or not it was "semantics," and it wasn't, the two definitions of challenge are still of great importance to this thread. The claim that a challenge can't happen unless there is a win/loss scenario going on is outright false. You can in fact have a challenge of the difficult choice where there is no win/loss possibility. :yawn: Your Ad Hominems bore me. Either respond to the arguments I make or don't respond to me or talk about me.
  • 03:54 PM - Maxperson quoted Aldarc in post Players choose what their PCs do . . .
    Ah, there we go. It's not a pemerton megathread until Maxperson gets into a debate of semantics and pulls out a lexicon so that he can argue definitions. We are also just missing Maxperson broadening the sense of a term such that it becomes meaningless in the discourse; let's say, something akin to "Everything is a challenge." ;) Nor is it one unless you falsely accuse me of semantics and engage in an Ad Hominem attack against me like this one. Semantics is not different ways to define something. It's saying the same thing in a different way, which I did not do. The distinctly different definitions of challenge do not end up at the same place. They are different kinds of challenges. Take your false semantics accusation elsewhere.
  • 01:35 PM - CapnZapp quoted Aldarc in post Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?
    CapnZapp, why do you keep letting your @$$ do all the talking when it comes to PF2? When will you get it in your head that this is a complete non-issue for probably the hypermajority of players? Honestly, it appears you're the only one, based on how you, and you alone, respond to my every post on the subject, always trying to make it about me, rather than the topic discussed. (And, no, you won't get answers this time either... [emoji854])

Friday, 12th July, 2019

  • 11:25 PM - MoonSong quoted Aldarc in post Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?
    I get that you have a zealous appreciation of the Witch class, but I don't think you can make a strong argument that the Alchemist doesn't have a more compelling case for most deserving of the coveted 12th class spot. This survey data from d20PFSRD, for example, has the Alchemist ranked 11th as the most played class, with the Druid coming in at 14th and the Witch coming in at 15th, with a whopping 1.2% difference between the Alchemist and Witch. (And yes, that is fairly large difference when you consider the sheer number of classes.) Plus, both the Oracle and the Magus outperform the Witch on this list too. I never said I wanted the Alchemist gone. All I said was leaving Witches out of core was a bad decision. Also, I'm skeptical the changes made to the Bard that you mention are in anyway remotely connected to the absence of the Witch. The Bard (and other 6th level casters) was notoriously underpowered in 3e and almost a joke class. There was also a lot of positive feedback about the Mesmer...
  • 07:24 PM - payn quoted Aldarc in post Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?
    I like what I have seen, though I understand that opinions will vary. I was a bit taken aback by this myself, but when I thought more deeply about it, I don't think it's that big of a deal. Do these things compete with class feats? Of course, but how is this necessarily all that different from the prior system apart from how it is structured? If you were multiclassing or going into a prestige class, for example, then you would be relinquishing a level from your primary class where you likely would have gained a class feature or more spells so that you could get another (PrC) class feature instead. (And you likely would have screwed up the progression of your saves, BAB, or spells too.) Here you are continuing with your class but opting to choose essentially alternate class features from another class or an archetype. It's basically a more streamlined, efficient way of doing the same thing but without costing as much of a huge dip or loss in your class efficiency. You can even do some thin...
  • 06:03 PM - payn quoted Aldarc in post Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?
    What gives me some optimism about PF2 in comparison to PF1 on that front, IMHO, is that it looks like a more robust foundation for expanding new character options than what Paizo was previously using. PF1 had alternate class features (i.e., archetypes), prestige classes, multiclassing, and hybrid classes, but if PF2 is able to condense all of that into a singular Archetype system, that's potentially a huge step forward in design space that this opens. It's similar to what 5e achieved with its subclass system. PF2 may partially even achieve what some people had wanted for 5e: cross-class archetypes/subclasses. This is exactly what I least like about PF2. By making archetypes, multi-classing, and prestige classing all a single universal silo, there is a great homogenized feeling of the game. The worst part is making all three custom options compete for the same resource (class feats). The designer's have created a customization bottle neck and even admitted so during the playtest process. Pe...
  • 05:15 PM - MoonSong quoted Aldarc in post Pathfinder Second Edition: I hear it's bad - Why Bad, How Bad?
    Not everything would make the cut, and it seems that Paizo wanted to keep it simpler (and reduce the page count) by going Old PHB Classes + 1 New Class. The Witch was a popular class according to Paizo, but the Alchemist gives Paizo the excuse to make alchemy rules less of an afterthought. I am also inclined to regard the Alchemist as being more unique conceptually from the Witch in terms of what it adds to the other PHB classes. I think it is a glaring omission because: a) The witch is important in Golarion (the most common non-divine caster) and b) the witch is an obvious primary occult caster, by not having it the bard was square pegged into the tradition and as a primary caster at the expense of other stuff. (IMO primal or arcane fitted better for the bard)
  • 12:36 AM - Imaro quoted Aldarc in post The Evolution of Tieflings in D&D: Interviews with Zeb Cook and Colin McComb
    What do the prevailing narrative elements of the tieflings in 5e entail? Are tieflings descended from yugoloths or demons in SCAG or other publications? Are they plane-touched anymore? How do they look in subsequent 5e publications? How do the subraces in Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes alter the appearance of the tieflings? What's the cultural impact of these "popular" alternate tiefling options from SCAG in the current Zeitgeist? Do we see this represented in the art to a significant degree? :confused: Seriously?? I'm not going to break down what each of the 10 subraces are, what they look like count artwork pieces in various WotC books or anything else you're asking for here. Again I am interested in the player base and whether they are choosing to play either in appearance or ability selection the base tiefling vs. the variants. Fan art, doesn't give me that info... the fact that WotC with the data they have (which I'm pretty sure is more rigorous than the amount of fan art from a google...
  • 12:23 AM - Hussar quoted Aldarc in post The Evolution of Tieflings in D&D: Interviews with Zeb Cook and Colin McComb
    /snip https://i.redd.it/g7zgspt3f2wz.png Huh. Big, back sweeping horns, blue skin. How is this not the default 5e tiefling? No tail I suppose. :erm: /snip From an anecdotal perspective, I usually have one tiefling per group in 5e. Heh. Fair enough. As I said, I've never actually seen one in play.

Thursday, 11th July, 2019

  • 09:16 PM - Imaro quoted Aldarc in post The Evolution of Tieflings in D&D: Interviews with Zeb Cook and Colin McComb
    Sure, but it hardly erases how it seems that players in 5e mostly enjoy the version that essentially carried over from 4e. Did they offer variants later? Sure. But the fanart and current version seems strongly influenced and increasingly locked into the 4e-brand tiefling, much in the same manner that kobolds began moving towards being mini-dragons with 3e. These things happen as the game evolves. You're assuming alot without much to back it up. I find your assertions interesting when contrasted with the fact that WotC has at this point published 10 subraces of Tieflings (plus the PHB main race) to date... The first of which in Sword Coast was basically an addendum to the Tiefling race stating that they didn't have to be of the blood of Asmodeus or look like the Tieflings in the PHB (Even if they have the PHB abilities)... if there was widespread preference for the monolithic Tiefling why expend the resources, page count and time to expand te race like this?


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