View Profile: Orich Starkhart - Morrus' Unofficial Tabletop RPG News
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About Orich Starkhart

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About Orich Starkhart
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Apperently Old School, but interested in design and mechanics
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United States
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Over 40
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Framingham
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Massachusetts
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Another "Armour as DR" Thread (sort of) Wednesday, 17th December, 2014 08:17 PM

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Thursday, 11th December, 2014

  • 09:11 PM - Sadrik mentioned Orich Starkhart in post Armor as DR
    Orich Starkhart you are very sharp. Much appreciated. Good point about the wall. The question is, where's the line separating an attack that is to be resolved through melee combat rules from one using saving throws or other mechanics? Maybe melee is for attacks from opponents no more than one size class larger (and evens smaller?)? Does the DM set a specific DC, or use an opposed check: the attack total is the DC the defender has to beat to reduce or avoid damage? I think your proposition of some mix between size category of the attacker and the target of the attack makes sense. This could be when the parry bonus of your weapons apply and when they do not apply. So if the some size categories bigger both cannot effectively parry against the other. This would effect the relative very small and very big. A pixie cannot parry an ogre and an ogre cannot parry a pixie. If parry could not apply then it would just be an attack against their base defense score. As a side note here, what if all atta...

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Thursday, 11th December, 2014

  • 09:11 PM - Sadrik quoted Orich Starkhart in post Armor as DR
    Orich Starkhart you are very sharp. Much appreciated. Good point about the wall. The question is, where's the line separating an attack that is to be resolved through melee combat rules from one using saving throws or other mechanics? Maybe melee is for attacks from opponents no more than one size class larger (and evens smaller?)? Does the DM set a specific DC, or use an opposed check: the attack total is the DC the defender has to beat to reduce or avoid damage? I think your proposition of some mix between size category of the attacker and the target of the attack makes sense. This could be when the parry bonus of your weapons apply and when they do not apply. So if the some size categories bigger both cannot effectively parry against the other. This would effect the relative very small and very big. A pixie cannot parry an ogre and an ogre cannot parry a pixie. If parry could not apply then it would just be an attack against their base defense score. As a side note here, what if all atta...

Wednesday, 10th December, 2014

  • 09:01 PM - DMMike quoted Orich Starkhart in post Armor as DR
    True, if we had a system that implemented such a skill. But D&D 5 doesn't seem to, and Sadrik didn't propose such a thing. Yeah I thought about adding in the proficiency bonus to the mix. Makes sense to do so. Perhaps it could be: 8 + Prof + DEX + Parry Talking 5e, right? In which your armor class is a fixed number that your armor gives you, plus a DEX bonus? And your DEX save is your proficiency bonus plus your DEX bonus? Here's a look behind the curtain, gang. AC is a skill. Dex saves are a skill. And I'm using the 3.5 definition. So, where are the skill ranks? They're the proficiency bonus. AC = defense skill, but instead of proficiency, you use your armor points. Furthermore, every d20 roll for AC is 10. Check with Unearthed Arcana: AC can be run with a die instead of a fixed number. DEX save = defense skill, by 5e definitions. This one increases with proficiency instead of armor type. One of Sadrik's proposals Parry class = 8 + Prof + DEX + Parry Which is a hyb...
  • 03:39 AM - Sadrik quoted Orich Starkhart in post Armor as DR
    If we can agree on this, then a parrying dagger, certain hilts, and a rapier (used in a duel) might be worth parry points. But really, since damage can come from a giant fist, 20' long tentacle, or dragon claws, I don't see how the above tools would make a difference. At least, not like a shield would. This approaches the a castle wall falls does it have to roll to hit you? No likely you make a DEX save to avoid it hitting you. When very large creatures attack it feels like it should be an area attack. Then you have to dodge it. A large sized ogre gets -1 parry for being large so his base parry would be 8 (10 -1 size -1 DEX). Then if he had a large greatclub that would grant parry +4 (+2 for base, +1 for only one item, +1 for size). So total Parry would be 12. This is 1 point higher than the 11 AC the creature normally has. The Ogre in the DM Basic rules wears hide armor and has a -1 dexterity modifier. I surmise that the stated AC11 assumes other factors, since Hide on a human would be...

Tuesday, 9th December, 2014

  • 08:24 PM - DMMike quoted Orich Starkhart in post Armor as DR
    Redundant with what, in the D&D 5 system? Is there a parry skill, or action/reaction? I have access only to the Basic rules at the moment; in those there is Dodge, but no explicit parry action or skill. So, your position is that the changes in effective attack bonus and AC, associated with "bounded accuracy", change the nature of hit points? I don't see it; the pool of hit points represent, as far as I can tell, mostly the same thing they did in previous editions, and it always was something common to all characters. A parry bonus from a weapon would be redundant with ranks (outdated term?) in a parry skill. Although Sadrik may have defined them otherwise, I'd prefer to see: Parry skill: one's ability to avoid taking damage. Weapon parry bonus: an increased ability to avoid damage due to the design of a weapon. If we can agree on this, then a parrying dagger, certain hilts, and a rapier (used in a duel) might be worth parry points. But really, since damage can come from a giant fist, 20'...

Monday, 8th December, 2014

  • 06:39 PM - Sadrik quoted Orich Starkhart in post Armor as DR
    Coincidentally, recently I encountered the assertion that the axe was a poor defensive weapon. Should that difference affect the parry bonus? Perhaps the swords get +2, axes and other hafted melee weapons (axes, maces, hammers) get +1 or even 0? I agree with this and this was the intent - make certain weapons and items more and less defensively attuned. So a longsword vs a battleaxe might be: Longsword 1d8, +2 Parry, slashing/piercing Battleaxe 1d10, +1 Parry, slashing Of course that is how I would do it if I were rewriting the weapon list. As is you just tack on a Parry score based on what I had previously provided. Shield Parry +4 Pole weapon Parry +3 Melee weapon Parry +2 Small melee weapon Parry +1 Ranged weapon Parry +0 I see that the "easier to be hit" is reflected in your penalties to parry for medium and heavy armors, and apparently the parry penalty you give medium and heavy armor replaces the cap on dexterity modifier in the rules? (since you later state that heavy arm...
  • 05:39 PM - DMMike quoted Orich Starkhart in post Armor as DR
    Good points. I disagree that weapons do not contribute. Certainly it's harder to get a good hit on a person armed with a sword than one who is not armed, if they can block or parry with their sword or if that sword is a threat to the attacker. I suppose the effect of weapon might be insignificant, or at least smaller, in combination with a shield. Perhaps where Sadrik had +2 for a sword, +3 for sword alone, it should be +1 for sword, +2 if it's the only thing held, and shield at +3 or +4 makes for sword and shield parry at +4 or +5. Weapons shouldn't contribute to parrying bonuses because their design is offensive, while the shield's is defensive. If you are able to parry with your weapon, it's because you have training in the skill of parrying. So, weapon parry bonuses can be redundant. please elaborate on this point about the definition of hit points. For 5th edition, hit points are significantly different than those in previous editions. In particular, 5e makes significant effort to...

Thursday, 4th December, 2014

  • 12:15 AM - DMMike quoted Orich Starkhart in post Armor as DR
    Sadrik - I'm interested in systems that try to rework the abstraction that is Armor Class. I've also tended to think that D&D generally undervalues the utility of the shield. Then I have a game for you! 2) Your proposed "parry" reduces hit probability between weapon-wielding characters in melee; certainly it seems appropriate to factor a melee weapon into defense, but I suspect that this is part of the previous "Armor Class" abstraction; what's missing is an adjustment to AC for different weapons, or an accounting for an unarmed opponent. In D&D 5, with proficiency starting at +2, any first - fourth level character has a 60% chance to hit an AC10/unarmored opponent for damage. . . Two handers may get +1; light ones -1, and size ought to be considered as well: an Ogre's club might gain the ogre +1 (or more) "parry" due to being large size, a halfling size (small) broadsword, -1. Parrying is a skill. You increase it just like your swimming skill or acting skill. And you use it to defeat attack...

Tuesday, 2nd December, 2014

  • 04:47 PM - Sadrik quoted Orich Starkhart in post Armor as DR
    Sadrik - I'm interested in systems that try to rework the abstraction that is Armor Class. I've also tended to think that D&D generally undervalues the utility of the shield. So I appreciate what you're trying to do, and especially that you propose increasing the effectiveness of shields (three points of defense rather than the two provided in the D&D 5 Basic Rules). Thanks! I agree I feel the shield is the best defense you can get, when referring to helping dodge/deflect blows. Also, the sword is an excellent parrying weapon when compared to a hafted weapon. This is glossed over in D&D. And further, armor makes you easier to be hit but makes you more difficult to be damaged. I do have a couple of observations/questions: 1) The provision to double the parry bonus when the character holds only the weapon means that the difference in defense between a character wielding both a sword and a shield and one equipped only with a sword is merely one point, which seems too low. What's your rationale for ...

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